Time again for this week's installment of the only conversation blog I know of: Destructoid Discusses! This week we started off with no topic, but then we were suddenly steered into the wonderful discussion of the latest and upcoming retro remakes by our own Jonathan Holmes. He and Joe Burling end up going back and forth in a display of differing points of view over Mega Man 9 and everyone chimes in with their 2¢.
Retro remakes - good or bad? Discuss!
[Everyone loves Joe, too!]
I'm currently drawing a blank about what to a to have as a topic seeing as I'm about to start BC:R for review, so any good things you can think of -- start talking and we'll see where it goes :)
Let's talk about Braid!!!!
For cereal, though, what's up with EA? They are taking over the gaming industry. What will this mean for us in a year? 5 years? 10 years?
Fuck Braid. I'll follow Jonathan's lead :)
They can remake retro games until the end of time; I'll always be happy with them if they're good. Remaking retro hits is pretty much the only thing we'll let the industry "cash in" on and still be okay with it.
I'd love to see how the decisions to remake games comes up. I mean, who thought of redoing 1942? I'm glad they did, but were they always intending to do this, or did they just Google "Capcom" and "Old," and then pick the first thing that came up?
I agree that a purchase of the upcoming Mega Man 9 is like a vote for video games. From the reaction gamers had to it, I'd guess they would be open to many more like this. And I'm sure Capcom will be happy to oblige.
I'm not a retro purist or anything, but I really like playing the originals, and I'd be okay with a re-release of the originals, with added levels and challenges. For example, I played the Genesis classic Quackshot for 4 hours last night. How about adding another country to that bitch? Granted, it wouldn't make as much money as a Mega Man 69 Retro, but I'd definitely pick it up.
I will not be purchasing Mega Man 9, nor do I have any interest in it really.
I think it's the look of the game and the fact that it will play like the original that turns me off. I stopped playing those games long ago. They all still have a very special place in my heart, but that doesn't mean I want to play them again. I loved reading Goosebumps when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean I'm going to rush right home after work and read Goosebumps tonight.
Somehow I simultaneously respect and feel a little sorry for you, Joe Burling.
I know! I blame it on Resident Evil, Colette. The first time I played Resident Evil and the dog jumped through the window, my entire outlook on gaming changed. It was a pivotal moment in my life, and I'm not being sarcastic. I tried to go back and play some of the old games I loved growing up, but they just didn't really do it for me anymore. I had found my new home with PS1 games like Resident Evil and Jumpin' Jack Flash.
I don't hate on retro games at all, but for me to truly enjoy one it would have to be a remake. I invite the world to pity me, but I am a very happy gamer with a lot of current games on my plate to make me smile. =)
Well, I don't pity you, Joe; I totally respect that all gamers have different takes on the topic. I can definitely understand how you felt about that moment in Resident Evil even though it didn't have the same effect on me; one of my big moments was walking through that first darl alley in the first Silent Hill, and seeing the angles the scene was presented in, and I clearly remember feeling a profound emotion about how games were evolving and I would be there to witness it happening. I guess for me that is as treasured as the hours whiled away on numerous Mega Mans or Zeldas, just each in their own way.
*dark, not darl. I have no idea what a darl alley is like.
What Jonathan said.
OK Jonathan, let's go with your Hitchcock analogy instead. I don't want to
watch that either. ;)
Really, Joe? I found that the ugly 3D of most PlayStation and N64 games made me far less interested in the "future" of gaming. I just couldn't understand at the time why developers didn't just make better looking 2D games (like Wild ARMs or Star Ocean: The Second Story!) until 3D started actually looking ... decent.
Anyway, remakes. I'm totally fine with remakes so long as they don't suck. I really like how they give people that weren't around for the original game (or just happened to miss it the first time around) a chance to experience it without having to search around for an old console/cartridge.
My sentiments exactly!
Justin, I think it's because newer games are able to get an emotional response out of me. The older games were a blast, yes, but they never made me jump, or fear, or feel like I may cry. When Resident Evil was able to make me feel some of these emotions, something changed, and I knew that older games would never be able to satisfy me in the way that newer games could.
Brad DMV Rice
Have you tried playing the original Clock Tower? That game has re-affirmed my belief that SNES games can be scary. The moody music, your character's total weakness, and the abject horror that the deformed child inspires as he's chasing you throughout the house. I'm looking to play through The First Fear soon -- I just hope the Japanese text doesn't wind up being the death of me.
I never did play that one, Brad. While I don't doubt that it had a profound impact on you, I question whether a SNES game could scare me now. As I continue to experience newer games with better graphics and advanced cinematics, getting immersed in games that don't have these things becomes harder and harder.
I hate to jump on the "argue with Joe" bandwagon (I <3 you, Joe Burling), but I don't think modern technology has anything to with a player's emotional response. Yeah, I was dramatically affected by Metal Gear Solid 4 and Shadow of the Colossus and all their technical prowess, but I will never forget the first time Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves in Final Fantasy IV. And don't even get me started on the opera scene from Final Fantasy VI. In a way, I am more impressed by emotionally resonant games done in 8- or 16-bit.
To me, older games with older graphical styles are true videogames. The fancier games get, the closer they get to becoming interchangeable with movies. I don't like this. I like dedicating my life and my free time to a medium like no other. I get this feeling when I play a game that separates itself from a cinematic presentation as much as possible.
This is why I love things like Mega Man 9 and Braid. Playing them is an experience like no other.
Wait, Chad. I love Braid, too. Outside of that, though, I didn't have the experience you did with some of those games. I guess I'm just different. :(
Hey, I'm totally late to the party when it comes to Braid (I just finished it no more than two days ago.) But, what I can say about it, is it was probably one of the most thought-provoking games I've played since the twist in BioShock.
As for Mega Man 9, it's really great that they're going back to the core gameplay that made Mega Man games so great. I'm interested from a distance at this point. But come on now, Splash Woman? Are you serious? They couldn't come up with a better name for the first female level boss? That's almost as bad as Duff McWhalen.
Sorry, Joe. I know you loved Braid. I was just saying it is something I love. Sorry for the confusion. :)
I agree with you a lot, actually. Especially concerning how much that scene in Resident Evil changed your outlook on what videogames can do. I just love retro games so much and tried (a little unsuccessfully) to explain why they mean so much to me. :)
Let me just summarize what I said like this: Joe Burling is amazing. I love Mega Man 9. :)
=) =) =)
<3 <3 <3
Best summary ever, Chad.
I think that drawing emotions from the gamer has almost nothing to do with the technology. If mere words could from a book could move you, why can't 8-bit pixels? Of course, you're talking to someone who is emotionally stirred whenever he hears the SNES soundchip make any kind of noise.
That's true, Dale. Emotions can come from just about anything, I guess.
Take this YouTube video, for example...
Rev. Tony beat me to it. I was just about to say Passage.
Not all other types of games become invalid to me. Here is how my mind works:
Consoles - I like my cinematic "dog moments" on my consoles. Not only is it on a big screen with awesome surround sound, but I can use the more complicated controllers and get online easily.
Handhelds - I like my puzzle and throwback games on my handhelds. These are the games that can't hold my attention for long on consoles, but are more than satisfying while laying in bed or in a waiting room.
I don't like handheld games that try to be console games, and I like my puzzle, strategy, and throwback games on handhelds, which I can take with me everywhere. There will always be exceptions to either side, but this is my general rule of thumb.
Platformers, though, are something that I just can't get into. Some switch in my head got flipped long ago, and platformers just don't do it for me anymore. And yes, I know Braid is a platformer, but I look at it more as a puzzle game.
To give you an idea, here are the games I am currently playing:
Final Fantasy Tactics
Phoenix Wright 3 (whatever that one is called again)
Geometry Wars 2
UT3 (which I will start this weekend)
I would say I have a pretty diverse taste in games, but you don't see me playing a bunch of retro games (especially platformers).
Retro is like fiber. It's unhealthy to not have it in your diet. You get all blocked up with the low-substance over-produced junk food they make these days.
Joe, you are so amazing! You truly have it all figured out. Every console has a different purpose for you. It's something I envy, because it seems to give people joy to look at things from that perspective. A place for everything and everything in its place. Sadly, I'm much more sloppy and grumpy than that. As for me, I look at the Wii, 360, and PS3 in my living room as a sad testament to how badly gamers have always been taken advantage of.
Imagine if I had a three different refrigerators in my kitchen (one for liquids, one for condiments, and one for vegetables), three TVs in my living room (one for dramas, one for comedies, and one for reality shows), and three toilets in my bathroom, (one for #1, one for #2, and the other one just for chilling out and keeping it real)?
Wouldn't you think it was nuts? Yet gamers do the same thing with their video game consoles on a consistent basis, without any realization of how wasteful and silly it is to have.
And wait, you're playing Geometry Wars 2? How is that not a retro game? Damn it, Joe, if you can play GW2, you can play MM9. Both have "Pew Pew Pew" and "Oh shit, I can't believe I just died" and achievements, and all that shooter jazz. The only thing that that makes it different is that it has jumping.
And....wait? Braid at the top of your list? COME ON!
If you can like Braid, and you can like Geometry Wars 2, then you can like Mega Man 9. I say this not to be forceful or brash, but because I love you, Joe Burling, and I don't want to see you deprive yourself of the magic of MM9. If it weren't for the fact that there is no way in hell that we will both remember to trade each other's Wii codes, I'd say I'd just gift you the game when it comes out. But we both know that will never happen.
I love Jonathan Holmes.
I love Jonathan Holmes, but my hand is not the only thing that is raised right now. ;)
Jonathan, I've thought about it, and I'll give MM9 a try with an open mind. Please understand, though, that traditional platformers really rub me the wrong way these days.
I'M SO HAPPY!
Give me your Wii code and I'll mail it to you for free. You deserve it for putting up with my badgering.
Oh... uh... well, I don't have a Wii. *ducks behind Chad for cover*
You can find me on the 360 (Buck F1tch3s) or PS3 (BuckFitches). Do you have any codes for that?
Also, you are never badgering! You are one of my very favorite people on Dtoid and I love our spats!
And now, I will buy you a Wii, as you can't gift with the other consoles, right?
I think retro remakes are a fantastic idea. Just like the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games introduce classic songs and artists to young'ns, games like Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, Bionic Commando Rearmed, and Mega Man 9 will introduce those iconic games and characters to a whole new generation of gamers. And assuming the remakes are good games, today's kids will hopefully become interested in the history of the games, and maybe will eventually seek out the originals. That's the ideal sequence of events, no?
Once again, Jonathan Holmes brings the knowledge, and that knowledge convinces Joe to play Mega Man 9 when it comes out (I also think Joe is insane for not wanting to play it, but oh well). I would think that most gamers would be looking forward to the new slew of upcoming retro remakes, but Joe reminds us that not all gamers are the same.
So would you say that your gaming tastes are more Joe Burling, or Jonathan Holmes?