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Zombie Cow: Games journos should be forced to make games photo

Been There, Done That developer Dan Marshall believes that if you want to be a so-called games journalist, you should be forced to make videogames yourself. As both a games developer and a PC magazine writer, he believes that dabbling in both fields is a required goal.

"I think all games journos should be forced to make a game somehow, see how they get on. It gives you a more rounded perspective," explains Marshall. "It’s really interesting, because as a developer I think you’re slightly more understanding of the process involved, but as a gamer you know whether or not you’re having a good time."

I disagree. While Marshall doesn't explicitly say it, this smacks of the "let's see you do better" argument that has been a fallacy for many years. I personally don't think making games makes you a better journalist in the same way that I don't think abducting children makes you a better policeman. You don't need know how to make a game in order to know when a game sucks, and in fact your opinion might be clouded a bit too much by developer sympathy if you've been there. 

What do you think? Does the gaming media need to make games? If Dan Marshall could help me reorganize my stupidly busy schedule so that I'm not writing about and playing crappy games all day, then maybe I'll take him up on the challenge. Until then, however, no dice.


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56 comments | showing # 1 to 50

20 Sided Death's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:24
20 Sided Death
"You don't need know how to make a game in order to know when a game sucks, and in fact your opinion might be clouded a bit too much by developer sympathy if you've been there."

I'm right there with you on that one. Its called a conflict of interest and would make horrible journalism.
BattyAdroit's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:25
BattyAdroit
I don't think it would hurt to have least have a minor role in the design process of a game. Lacking developer experience might not make you a bad journalist, but having it would certainly make you a better one.
Niero's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:26
Niero
I agree that some game dev experience would up a journos empathy for all the work that goes into making great games, but what the fuck does that have to do with criticism? Can you imagine our reviews if tell our readers "look, even if this level design is shit, those 30 guys only had a few thousand bucks to work with, so put up with it". It's completely irrelevant.
xaliqen's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:27
xaliqen
"If you want to call yourself a man, you should copy exactly what I do."

Yeah, that's not arrogant or anything... People like to do numerous things, if one of those things is reviewing video games, then why should another necessarily have to be creating video games? I certainly don't think all video game developers should review video games, and, of course, vice versa.
phantomile's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:27
phantomile
I completely disagree with him. Being a games journalist is about reporting things to fellow gamers, not other developers. Maybe you can't talk about things on quite the same level as them, but that isn't your job.
Reviews, opinions, and all the other things that games journalists do should always be done by GAMERS, not developers.
xaliqen's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:31
xaliqen
It's the same argument often brought up for historians: "You weren't there, so you can't judge the events." Wrong.

I wasn't there during the development process of your game. I also wasn't alive during the Second World War. Yet, formulating well-informed opinions about these phenomenon is perfectly valid.
vitaminh's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:32
vitaminh
If political journalists don't need to be state senators before writing about proposed legislation and movie critics don't need to direct a feature film before analyzing the latest Hollywood offering, I'm not sure why gaming critics need to make a video game before writing "I thought this game was no fun."
project2501's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:32
project2501
While I don't agree that it would help a journalist more fairly judge gameplay, it might help alleviate the perceptions that developers are lazy or incompetent when a game doesn't score highly for whatever reason.

A lot of times I see reviews of mediocre games make disparaging remarks about the abilities or commitment of the developers (The PS3 version of Ghostbusters is a good example). I've worked on (non-gaming) projects that didn't turn out as well as I hoped, but that doesn't mean I didn't do my best to make it succeed. I take Dan Marshalls comments to mean journalists might be more inclined to fairly review the developer rather than the game.
Joseph Leray's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:33
Joseph Leray
I guess Stephen Hawking isn't a brilliant physicist since he can't actually move.
topcatyo's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:34
topcatyo
A game journalist's job is to help the readers decide if they should spend their money on a game or not. If they criticize a game for being shit, it's going to let the reader know the game is shit. Dan Marshall might as well have said that, to play games, you should design a game yourself.
Monodi's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:34
Monodi
I think the deal is game developers SHOULD BE gamers too.
GoldenGamerXero's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:38
GoldenGamerXero
They should know how much and what kind of work goes into making a game but to say that someone would actually be required to make one is a bit too far.
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:38
Wedge
It's "Been There, Dan That". And I think it can give you a better understanding of just WHY something is good or bad, and thus you can possibly do better than say things like "the AI was dum" or "the animations looked funnies".
aaronf's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:40
aaronf
How about instead of blaming journalists for bad reviews, game companies try to come up with some good games rather than recycle old ideas in an attempt to make a cash grab.
Kvb's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:41
Kvb
Uhhh.. You mean "Ben There, Dan That"?
mo0man's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:42
mo0man
FROM NOW ON TO HAVE AN OPINION YOU MUST HAVE MADE SOMETHING BETTER BY AN OBJECTIVE STANDARD FIRST
Kvb's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:43
Kvb
I disagree, by the way. Gaming journalists should speak from the gamers' perspective, not the developers'.
Everyday Legend's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:46
Everyday Legend
What he describes is removing the objective eye that reviewers need to have in the fucking first place.
destructony's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:47
destructony
But some journalists could be better that a lot of game designers out there. Maybe it should be required to have good editorial skills before becoming a game designer.
StaticVoidMain's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:49
StaticVoidMain
I think this guys comments are going to get some, undeservedly, bad responses ...

Mainly because his idea may be seen as slightly insulting to games jurno's who will obviously report on the issue and say the guy is talking crap... it will be then read by gamers who think their own opinions on games are good enough to be in print, and as such will view it as a slur against them as self proclaimed games critics.

I personally think he has a point; I don't think some one reading a review needs to sympathize with development constraints... but I think some one with hands on knowledge is better equipped to give you a guided tour of a product, especially if the reader has interest in the development, the industry, etc.

Yahtzee is a brilliant critic and he also made games, there might be no connection between the two, but I would bet my money there is.
walkyourpath's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:52
walkyourpath
Joseph Leray wins this comment thread.
sylphx's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:54
sylphx
I think it is imperative for journalists to know the game development vernacular, but I don't think actual design experience is necessary. Do movie critics go and make movies too? No. They do not.
Xzyliac's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 11:54
Xzyliac
I don't think this is at all a "Let's see you do better move." He's not saying you have to make a good game. Just know the whole process and shitz.

I think it's a good idea. I don't think you need to make a game to critique a game but it could result in some really detailed and intense reviews. I think it could result less sympathetic reviews. Not more.
rodiard's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:02
rodiard
I think developers should be forced to review shitty games.
AdamantiumHip's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:06
AdamantiumHip
So does that also mean you need to make a movie to have an opinion on movies? Or be a chef so you can have a valid opinion on foods?

The fact is, making a game and being a games journalist are really different skills.

I suck at math and could not survive as a coder, I'd have no clue what to do- it is a real talent. No denying it, even the worst games have skilled individuals on them.

But I still know a turd when I see one, and for every coder they have, games like Turning Point and Legendary still blow, and I don't need to be a designer to tell you that.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:08
Holyetheline
If they really think this then I think they should straight up hire and train journalists for their studio. If someone wants something bad enough they will make it happen.
AdamantiumHip's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:09
AdamantiumHip
lol rodiard- well played
The Silent Protagonist's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:16
The Silent Protagonist
Let's not put gaming journalism above criticism here, because what Marshall is saying isn't entirely without merit. I just think that gaming journalists - if they know anything about journalism at all - can parallel their production process with a game developer's.

Hint: Its not just slapping together a blog and hitting the "submit" button.

I expect a reviewer to know the genre he's talking about, have some understanding of the production process and have finished a game to completion before he post the review.

But how many reviews have you read where that's not the case? I've read plenty. This unfortunately gives the "let's see you do better" argument some merit. Its happened quite a lot. There's also cases where gaming sites have let their need for ad revenue get the better of journalistic ethics. See: Kane and Lynch, Gamespot.

Its sort of silly for a critic not to be able to handle a little return fire. I don't think a developer just has to sit back and take it, especially if the reviewer had it wrong.
GamingGoddess's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:23
GamingGoddess
I don't think his point is entirely without merit either, since more knowledge usually is a good thing in general. Whether hands-on experience caused the reviewer to be more or less sympathetic to developers in their reviews probably depends on the individual.

I do get a bit of a passive-aggressive "let's see you do better, smarty pants" feeling here, but that doesn't mean he's completely wrong-- he just may have ulterior motives:).
Naim Master's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:25
Naim Master
Actually, it's Ben there Dan that!
turbbit's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:26
turbbit
If you're criticizing the game, then all you need to do is look at the game.

If you ever find yourself criticizing the game developer, then I think that you probably do need that experience in order to do that correctly.
Dexter345's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:32
Dexter345
Yep, ridiculous.
Shadowiii's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:33
Shadowiii
What does he mean by "make a game"? I used to make old QBasic DOS games (they actually weren't that bad; probably somewhere between NES and SNES level graphics, mostly were RPGS or odd horror games), but none of them could be commercial level.
But I will admit that actually going through the process of trying to create a good game offered a lot of insight on both game design as a whole, and how it relates to how I review games these days. It makes you loads pickier, to be honest, with your games.
So...in a way I think he's right. If we made all the destructoid members sit down and create the best indie game they could, I bet they'd come out much better informed on how to write game articles (not that you don't do a good job now, you do fantastic, it would just bump it up a notch or two).
Vanor's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:34
Vanor
Is the game fun? No? Then your game sucks. You don't need to make games to know if a game is good or not. This guy should focus on what the customer wants: Fun games. If the game is fun, it'll sell regardless of how it's reviewed. Word of mouth from personal experience is the best kind of advertising, and it's not hard to do if you simply focus on the customer, which most game developers and the entire game industry fails to do anymore. Videogames are their own form of entertainment, unlike movies, books, and anything else. Make games, make classics, and you'll never have to worry about making excuses for why your games don't sell because nobody is entertained by them. So stop crying like an emo about why nobody understands you, Mr. Marshall, because I'm quite tired of hearing the game industry's excuses when it comes to failing at delivering quality entertainment.
Insanity-Oo's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:37
Insanity-Oo
I can see how a journo with dev experience would be interesting during previews or interviews, I don't see the merit in it for reviews. Reviews basically come down to "I liked/didn't like this game because...". Now sure, you want the review to know and like the genre he's reviewing, but that doesn't necessitate knowing how to make a game.
snoogans775's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:41
snoogans775
@Vanor
it probably would, but it tends to alienate people when reviewers get too technical. Some of Anthony Burch's reviews(not all) just wouldn't make any sense to a lot of gamers.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:46
Tascar
I don't agree that being a good games journalist ought to have anything to do with whether or not that journalist has made a game. However, I can kind of see his point given certain comments that I have seen uttered.

For example, I remember when Anthony was talking about randombullseye's game "Bonerquest" on Podtoid and he really tore randombullseye a new ass hole for updating the game's executable files 3 or 4 times after its "release" in order to fix bugs. So I think that it was ironic that when his own game Runner came out, the game had to be taken down and repatched a number of quick updates after its release as well to fix errors.

I guess I imagine that prior to Runner, Anthony pins down these last minute bugs that randombullseye was struggling with as poor planning or poor QA whereas after Runner, I suspect that he releases that sometimes these things happen (most often than not they will happen) and it's not necessarily something you can easily just blame someone or something for.

So yeah, I guess that while I don't agree that game journalists ought to make games, I feel that those that have certain gain something from the experience.
makesfive's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 12:52
makesfive
Eh. If you want lots of technobabble in your reviews, I guess he's got a point. All I really read reviews for is to see if the game is a steaming pile or not.

Now that demos are much more readily available though I don't think reviewers are as useful as they used to be. :X
WarZombie's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 13:08
WarZombie
Do all movie critics make movies? Are all music critics in bands (Maybe more involved than a movie critic, but not all of them are)? Are all art critics in general involved in creating the very art that they're critiquing? I don't think so, and the same applies to games. You don't have to be making games to know a good game from a bad, a mediocre from a timeless, etc. I have no doubt that making your own game is a fun process, but it isn't a necessary craft when you're talking about criticism of a game. While I understand his point, I think that too much sympathy would be paid to developers if every critic also made games. A lot of websites and publications are too lenient as it is right now, so if they got involved and knew how hard it was, then we could possibly see even less honesty in games reviews.

Games don't need to be "Well, they tried their hardest." No. If your game sucks, it sucks. Bottom line. I'm not saying that experience in making games wouldn't make reviewers think more about what they want to say, just as long as sympathy doesn't cloud their better judgment when reviewing a bad game.
agentarsenic's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 13:10
agentarsenic
If game journos made games, it would be a disaster. Jim Sterling would have Bayonetta: Touch and Giggle out in a fapbeat.
BGFUSAB's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 13:46
BGFUSAB
I disagree. I don't think it hurts for some of the journalist to be developers but who are the journalist typically writing for, the developer or the gamers? They write for the gamers, the vast majority of whom do not develop games. It is nice to have industry insight in a lot of reporting, no doubt. But it also good for there to be other journalist who are in a similar situation as the people who read what they write, especially reviews.
bobyoko's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 14:43
bobyoko
for me, it would be nice if reviewers were required to NOT be fanboys. or perhaps, if that's too much, let the fanboys only review for their preferred platform. do they need to be able to write software, not so much.
Dr Awesome's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 15:28
Dr Awesome
Agree one hundred percent. If reviewers had at least some development experience, they'd be able to better understand why the flaws in a given game might exist, why they exist and what the developers would have to do to fix them. Sure, you shouldn't start sympathising with developers who make bad games just because something went wrong in the development process, but if you think it would be anything other than beneficial to the industry in the long run (even if it's not at all necessary) then I wholly disagree.
whatisdelicious's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 15:54
whatisdelicious
Maybe we should require gamers to create games before they're allowed to play one.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 16:12
fulldamage
I think he's got a good point, which he immediately shoots right in the foot by saying "should be forced." This is obviously not true -- but a journalist can really only benefit by increasing their knowledge of all aspects of the subject material.

Obviously you should avoid reviewing your own efforts, but knowing more about the process doesn't automatically make you less objective -- as a writer, you are responsible for assessing your own objectivity level. Having hands-on experience in the world of development doesn't make you unfit to write, or biased to "give a pass" to subpar efforts. On the contrary, the added understanding of what happens "under the hood" should lead you to construct better critiques that are more on target, and more relevant.

As a side note - I think it's cool for the relationship between developers and journos to be a little bit adversarial. You're supposed to ask them the hard questions, and you are after all critiquing them - a little trash-talk keeps everyone on their toes. The best thing that can happen for a journo is for people to acknowledge what they're saying, and the best possible outcome is that a developer uses the input to make a better game.
Samsa's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 16:52
Samsa
This is the same excuse that crappy first time film makers use when their shit movie gets bad reviews. The perfect reviewer would have no clue how a game is made, or they think games are made when a two computers are put in a dark room together. Again a sorry excuse usually made when someone creates something mediocre and is called out on it. I'm guessing his next game is going to be terrible and he's starting the "but I really worked hard on it" campaign early.
Dyson's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 17:32
Dyson
Ha ha :) I agree with Dan Marshall on this one. I'm not sure if working in dev will make you a better writer, but it sure will keep you from writing articles that are basically "WAH! These developers made a bad game and should have made it better. Even though I have no experience in making games, just an overblown sense of my own intelligence when it comes to these things because I'm a gamer, I think these (lists) are the ways the game SHOULD have been made. But since the developers are idiots who know nothing about making games (especially compared to myself), you'll never see the game they should have made.!!!!""""

Articles like that are far more common than not, and as someone who worked in dev for a bit I can say that the point of view of these articles comes from a severe lack of knowing how games are made.

Marshall isn't saying that you should excuse bad games. What, I'm assuming, he's saying is that if you understand how games are made, you'll just be more likely to write something like "I can see what they were going for here, but it's pretty obvious it didn't come through and it's kinda fucked up and shitty" as opposed to the more common type of pov instanced above.
buffaloAAA's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 18:14
buffaloAAA
Good film critics (yes, I just shuddered) generally have some kind of background in film, and "I watch a lot of movies" isn't one of them. They generally have studied production, theory, were a writer, etc. I disagree with the sentiment, but feel that if there is to be such a job as "game journalist" then bloggers who consider themselves such should start adhering to stronger standards. For instance - simply calling an executive a "retard" is not nearly as effecting as describing the actions that could make one assume him of lower intelligence. Being snarky for the sake of being snarky is no longer an interesting read, as most of the internet does so already. It also means owning up to the FTC and disclosing any internal "sacks of money" that may have been handed over recently for a prim review.
AdamantiumHip's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 19:53
AdamantiumHip
I don't get it...why do you need to be a games developer to realise what is a bad game?

I mean honestly, that's like saying you can't have an opinion on anything unless you have done it personally.

If you think about it, we are all critics. we all talk on here bout our love for games, our passion for it, and how we love or hate certain games, and why. I don't know how many of us have made games, but surely that passion isn't only justified if you are involved in making games? Making games is not everyone's forte. I know it's not mine. But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna say if I think a game sucks or not.
wererogue's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/13/2009 19:54
wererogue
I do read a lot of games reviews that start to sound like "if this game only had x feature from y game it would be ok", completely ignoring the cost of making said feature. I think dev experience would help weed out that kind of "why isn't this game like this other game" thinking.
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