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I'm not sure if I agree with what you're saying but you said it pretty well. I can't think about the relationship between Wii Fit and Heavy Rain because I don't actually see any so that all I can say about this topic.
Heavy Rain is a throwaway title, though. Wii Fit - being game or "tool" does allow for a goal to be set and even like brain age, it does encourage you to meet or exceed such goals.
Heavy Rain is more like a visual novel, it may have a couple game-like elements, but much like the visual novel, the adventure game elements are practically lobotomized and have a few trite "choices" to make along the way, which may or may not change anything.
Wii Fit, at the very least, is functional as a lifestyle tool and can be pushed toward being a game. Heavy Rain you will buy and quickly forget the second the next big game or movie is in you hands.
Mass Effect 2 exceeds HR in the realm of choice, which by comparison "choice" in HR looks extremely arbitrary. Games like Ico and SotC have become regarded as artistic masterpieces that you can play, all without the need to be overwhelmingly cinematic about it.
Heavy Rain is more like a visual novel, it may have a couple game-like elements, but much like the visual novel, the adventure game elements are practically lobotomized and have a few trite "choices" to make along the way, which may or may not change anything.
Wii Fit, at the very least, is functional as a lifestyle tool and can be pushed toward being a game. Heavy Rain you will buy and quickly forget the second the next big game or movie is in you hands.
Mass Effect 2 exceeds HR in the realm of choice, which by comparison "choice" in HR looks extremely arbitrary. Games like Ico and SotC have become regarded as artistic masterpieces that you can play, all without the need to be overwhelmingly cinematic about it.
Beautiful write-up.
"What's the difference?" Like EdgyDude, graphics whores; and an industry-wide hate for Nintendo (it's not FUD anymore, it's the damned truth that the vast majority of the industry nowadays harbors vitriol for the Big N).
"What's the difference?" Like EdgyDude, graphics whores; and an industry-wide hate for Nintendo (it's not FUD anymore, it's the damned truth that the vast majority of the industry nowadays harbors vitriol for the Big N).
Er, not so sure I understood exactly. When you say "Heavy Rain is effective when players realize that they aren't shackled down by necessity" what do you mean by necessity? The need to cater to their learned gaming instincts? The need for them to get every button press in the game exactly right? Also, Heavy Rain sets out to tell a mystery story and allow the player to have some control over how it pans out, no? So how is it only effective in meeting this goal when the player see's this 'necessity'?
Great article though, I'm just confused on that one thing.
Great article though, I'm just confused on that one thing.
I gotta say, your article didn't make much sense to me. Are you trying to actually compare them? Are you arguing against people that say they aren't games? Are you trolling for some reactionary comments? I don't like to scorn well written stories but this one is all over the place.
What's the difference? Perhaps the fact that Wii fit lacks a narrative and is a collection of minigames you play with the balance board and Heavy Rain is narrative-heavy game in which the players input is sometimes (perhaps most of the time) marginal, sometimes critical.
Perhaps that explains some of the reaction. But then again I am not telling you anything you don't know. The question itself is pretentious because you, being intelligent, probably already know the answer.
But honestly, saying that Wii Fit and Heavy Rain are similar because they remove you from the game is perhaps true but so what? It is only one aspect of two multifaceted games.
Perhaps that explains some of the reaction. But then again I am not telling you anything you don't know. The question itself is pretentious because you, being intelligent, probably already know the answer.
But honestly, saying that Wii Fit and Heavy Rain are similar because they remove you from the game is perhaps true but so what? It is only one aspect of two multifaceted games.
@grafkhun
Yeah, I totally flubbed that part up.
I wanted to try to convey that Heavy Rain doesn't offer a "correct" way to play, that there are no rewards or penalties other than what assign to yourself. From many reviews I've read, there are sections of the game where you literally don't have to push a single button even though you could if you want. With that in mind, the game doesn't demand all that much out of you. Nothing is really "necessary." I hope that makes sense.
@bluexy
I've caught a few of your comments on my previous posts. You don't have much nice to say to me, do you?
Yeah, I totally flubbed that part up.
I wanted to try to convey that Heavy Rain doesn't offer a "correct" way to play, that there are no rewards or penalties other than what assign to yourself. From many reviews I've read, there are sections of the game where you literally don't have to push a single button even though you could if you want. With that in mind, the game doesn't demand all that much out of you. Nothing is really "necessary." I hope that makes sense.
@bluexy
I've caught a few of your comments on my previous posts. You don't have much nice to say to me, do you?
WiiFit deserved the scorn it got, at first. Because unlike many other exergaming contemporaries like You Fitness and EyeToy Kinetic (which Ironically Miyamoto was impressed with at an E3 but Nintendo invents EVERYTHING so that doesn't matter), WiiFit didn't have a program, didn't have a goal, and took so long to get into the next exercise that it's benefits for doing a routine were squandered away. It's lifestyle system that you praise was directly stolen from other systems such as Xavix. And in the end, it was SOOO misleading of a product, that in Japan, Nintendo was forced to put the fact that it's all a lie ON the box. Fortunately for Nintendo, US and Europe have no such stipulations and someone can easily sell powdered rice pills for $50 as performance enhancers and never actually HAVE to prove it works. Whether WiiFit Plus is a better program or not, I don't know. But I do know that a $5 exercise DVD gave you the much better workout than the $100 scale minigame compilation. Whether or not it's a game is a whole other debate.
The industry as a whole is rather fed up on Nintendo because, frankly, they're tired of being jerked around. Like Jim Sterling said, "The fact that they are STILL pretending like gamers matter ot them is what is offensive. Just admit it, you don't give a shit about us." during the E3 No8 podcast. You see the scorn because they keep promising and never really giving the carrot they dangle. Eventually, people get pissed off at that kind of behavior and there IS a backlash. See: Sony and PS3 launch, PSP Go.
As to this comparison, really? So now Nintendo invented Heavy Rain too? I'm guessing that's the point you're driving at here because no other point has been implied. Other than, of course, Heavy Rains massive influence from Adventure gaming. You know, that genre of games that supposedly died according to Roberta Williams because poor people could afford computers suddenly and not because her game design tactics were retarded, punishing, and not very clever. But I suppose Nintendo invented that too with Shadowgate, right?
The industry as a whole is rather fed up on Nintendo because, frankly, they're tired of being jerked around. Like Jim Sterling said, "The fact that they are STILL pretending like gamers matter ot them is what is offensive. Just admit it, you don't give a shit about us." during the E3 No8 podcast. You see the scorn because they keep promising and never really giving the carrot they dangle. Eventually, people get pissed off at that kind of behavior and there IS a backlash. See: Sony and PS3 launch, PSP Go.
As to this comparison, really? So now Nintendo invented Heavy Rain too? I'm guessing that's the point you're driving at here because no other point has been implied. Other than, of course, Heavy Rains massive influence from Adventure gaming. You know, that genre of games that supposedly died according to Roberta Williams because poor people could afford computers suddenly and not because her game design tactics were retarded, punishing, and not very clever. But I suppose Nintendo invented that too with Shadowgate, right?
Congrats MegaStryke. You're a seemingly open minded gamer who thinks for himself. I see a lot of people who are the opposite and it really gets me down sometimes. Kudos and faps to you.
Ah, I see now. One can play Heavy Rain with as much or little effort as they choose, the game still continues no matter what. You're 'necessity' is the need for one to 'master' the game, for the lack of a better word. Also, I wonder what would happen if someone play's Heavy Rain without any input at all, except for walking to activate scenes of course.
@grafkhun
Well, it's not completely on rails. You do have to input something most of the time. You can't go down alternate paths unless you pick up the controller and follow the on-screen commands. It's all very downplayed, though.
Well, it's not completely on rails. You do have to input something most of the time. You can't go down alternate paths unless you pick up the controller and follow the on-screen commands. It's all very downplayed, though.
@megastryke,
Really? Damn, I was kind of hoping for a better reaction. Course my second paragraph was more towards Novacaine's victim mentality, explaining why there is a growing annoyance with Nintendo.
But really, I stand behind WiiFit being a worthless toy because it really was. It's just so sad Ellen and many other "daytimers" had to push it so hard.
But yeah, still kind of confused on the absolute intent of this article. And please, for future reference, when I troll that hard, either ignore me so I can see the other funny reactions, or at least troll me equally hard.
Really? Damn, I was kind of hoping for a better reaction. Course my second paragraph was more towards Novacaine's victim mentality, explaining why there is a growing annoyance with Nintendo.
But really, I stand behind WiiFit being a worthless toy because it really was. It's just so sad Ellen and many other "daytimers" had to push it so hard.
But yeah, still kind of confused on the absolute intent of this article. And please, for future reference, when I troll that hard, either ignore me so I can see the other funny reactions, or at least troll me equally hard.
I see, so you can troll me and be completely dismissive...
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/sheppy/the-hard-sell-of-wii-games-148542.phtml
But the favor can't be returned. Fair enough, going away...
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/sheppy/the-hard-sell-of-wii-games-148542.phtml
But the favor can't be returned. Fair enough, going away...
Wow... I really like what you said here.
I agree with Monodi, every time you get to a keyboard magic happens.
I agree with Monodi, every time you get to a keyboard magic happens.
@Xzyliac Nope. I was just pointing out mega already knows why they were received differently (most likely, if that is what his end question is really saying), thus asking the question why they were received differently is somewhat disingenuous.
My point was the similarity is, well, pointless. The article fails to answer the most important question "So what?" Honestly, this is a well written post, but I felt disappointed because it lacks anything I can recognize as a point beyond "Hey these two games are similar in a rather convoluted way."
It is like pointing out that Muddy Waters and Johnny Cash both sang about whisky, so why did some people like Cash but disliked Waters, without saying much more about on the matter.
On the necessity issue, I am honestly confused. So the players actions matter, but the player does not necessarily have to do much of anything to get to the end of the game. This is a good thing? This is innovation? Games that can play themselves? Really? Am I missing something?
My point was the similarity is, well, pointless. The article fails to answer the most important question "So what?" Honestly, this is a well written post, but I felt disappointed because it lacks anything I can recognize as a point beyond "Hey these two games are similar in a rather convoluted way."
It is like pointing out that Muddy Waters and Johnny Cash both sang about whisky, so why did some people like Cash but disliked Waters, without saying much more about on the matter.
On the necessity issue, I am honestly confused. So the players actions matter, but the player does not necessarily have to do much of anything to get to the end of the game. This is a good thing? This is innovation? Games that can play themselves? Really? Am I missing something?
The point is that we have here two games that break ranks in different ways in an attempt to reinvigorate players. It was never my intent to explain whether the end results are any good (that would invoke a quality argument that I wanted to avoid this time around) but to demonstrate these are unique pieces of software that offer something not really seen before. We shouldn't discredit either one or pass them off as non-games without a second though. Instead, we must learn what that did effectively and build off that.
Wii Fit and Heavy Rain are not that different because they take going to the gym / watching a movie and make it WORSE!!!
OOOOOOOh SNAP SON!!!!
nonono but seriously, my terrible joke aside, great article. You've made me more interested in giving Heavy Rain a rental at least, despite getting my fingers burned by Fahrenheit.
OOOOOOOh SNAP SON!!!!
nonono but seriously, my terrible joke aside, great article. You've made me more interested in giving Heavy Rain a rental at least, despite getting my fingers burned by Fahrenheit.
and i see heavy rain as a sort of point and click adventure game with an updated interface made easier for consoles.
@mega
I can understand your point from a developer’s perspective:
“we must learn what that did effectively and build off that.”
But most of us are consumers. We don’t build anything, video game wise.
Consumers only encourage innovation through buying, and to a much lesser extent, renting games. If an innovation does not look enjoyable, why should someone buy it?
Moreover, while your point is taken, both games innovate by having elements that take the player out of the game, they produce vastly different value to the consumer.
Wii fit did what educational games (not covered on game pages but games none the less) have been doing for 25 years: taking something people don’t like to do and adding a gaming element to make it more fun. If you don’t like exercise, but do like games and want to loose weight then there is allot of value there.
As far as Heavy Rain goes, we will see. Still, in an interactive medium, deemphasizing interaction, making it so your inputs on supposedly critical parts of the game really don't matter that much or that you are a passive director instead of an active participant (perhaps I am mischaracterizing your description, if so sorry), does not seem a step forward. I could well be wrong on this.
BTW, if Cage does not think of Heavy Rain as a game, who are we to argue?
I can understand your point from a developer’s perspective:
“we must learn what that did effectively and build off that.”
But most of us are consumers. We don’t build anything, video game wise.
Consumers only encourage innovation through buying, and to a much lesser extent, renting games. If an innovation does not look enjoyable, why should someone buy it?
Moreover, while your point is taken, both games innovate by having elements that take the player out of the game, they produce vastly different value to the consumer.
Wii fit did what educational games (not covered on game pages but games none the less) have been doing for 25 years: taking something people don’t like to do and adding a gaming element to make it more fun. If you don’t like exercise, but do like games and want to loose weight then there is allot of value there.
As far as Heavy Rain goes, we will see. Still, in an interactive medium, deemphasizing interaction, making it so your inputs on supposedly critical parts of the game really don't matter that much or that you are a passive director instead of an active participant (perhaps I am mischaracterizing your description, if so sorry), does not seem a step forward. I could well be wrong on this.
BTW, if Cage does not think of Heavy Rain as a game, who are we to argue?
Interesting article! Incredible how you come up with these crazy concepts and roll them into fun, concise reads.
Great blog! I never would have made that comparison.
Not sure if I'll ever get around to playing Heavy Rain but I'm still in love with WiiFit. Works well if you use it properly.
Not sure if I'll ever get around to playing Heavy Rain but I'm still in love with WiiFit. Works well if you use it properly.
I think I get what you're saying; the similarity between the two software is the lack of investment along traditional gameplay lines (i.e., "these inputs will lead to a loss, those to win"), whereas instead it is what the on-screen interactivity implies for your physical or emotional being which provides engagement.
Basically, both pieces of software requires an experiential investment level that goes beyond the necessity of being a "game."
Basically, both pieces of software requires an experiential investment level that goes beyond the necessity of being a "game."
Seems to me a lot of people posting comments missed the point of the article.
Can't blame them though, it's a strange article. Not a bad one, just an odd one.
Can't blame them though, it's a strange article. Not a bad one, just an odd one.
You don't have to get up and move around while playing Heavy Rain, though. You can be a lazy fatass who sits around and doesn't move, instead of a lazy fatass who plays Wii Fit and thinks he's accomplishing something other than looking like a jackass.
Its an interesting comparison, one that I never really thought of before. But one thing I'd ask with the Wii fit...If it wasn't used through the Wii system would it be different than say a workout video? In a workout video you imitate the on screen directions to achieve a fitness goal. To me that sounds more like Wii Fit than Heavy Rain. Granted there is a little more to it, but if the Wii Fit wasn't made by Nintendo and was made by a fitness company it would most likely be marketed and considered a fitness tool rather than a "game." The line for a game being considered a game or something else is getting more and more broad as these new types of media come out to push our preconceived notions of what should be considered a game and what shouldn't.
I don't see how you can't see the difference.
One game is designed as a toy that you play with and ultimately get nothing besides a few fitness tips.
The other game is designed as a narrative experience and uses its gameplay to tell a story that can not be told in any other medium.
Heavy Rain is often described as a movie, but movies don't have any interaction with the viewer. The whole point of games is that you can interact with them, Heavy Rain mixes the inherit interactivity of games with a storyline, therefore pushing the medium forward, and showing people what games can accomplish.
WiiFit upholds the idea that games are nothing but something you play with and provide nothing else but temporary stimulation, similar to a toy.
I thought the article was interesting, but your concluding point is so ridiculous it induces rage. I also think its never a good idea to compare a game that isn't out yet.
One game is designed as a toy that you play with and ultimately get nothing besides a few fitness tips.
The other game is designed as a narrative experience and uses its gameplay to tell a story that can not be told in any other medium.
Heavy Rain is often described as a movie, but movies don't have any interaction with the viewer. The whole point of games is that you can interact with them, Heavy Rain mixes the inherit interactivity of games with a storyline, therefore pushing the medium forward, and showing people what games can accomplish.
WiiFit upholds the idea that games are nothing but something you play with and provide nothing else but temporary stimulation, similar to a toy.
I thought the article was interesting, but your concluding point is so ridiculous it induces rage. I also think its never a good idea to compare a game that isn't out yet.
"So here we have two non-games that engage players not via immersion but via emersion."
I don't think that makes any sense. At least not in the way in which you intended. I've tried to look at it from every possible meaning of 'emersion' but I still don't get it.
And really, the only thing I see in common with them is that they're different from the norm. I think with a little time and effort, one could reasonably compare any two games to the same effect.
Oh, and by the way, Sheppy's comments are about as far from trolling as you can get. Perhaps it was a bit too much of a confrontational tone, but just because someone disagrees with you in a post doesn't mean that they're trolling.
I don't think that makes any sense. At least not in the way in which you intended. I've tried to look at it from every possible meaning of 'emersion' but I still don't get it.
And really, the only thing I see in common with them is that they're different from the norm. I think with a little time and effort, one could reasonably compare any two games to the same effect.
Oh, and by the way, Sheppy's comments are about as far from trolling as you can get. Perhaps it was a bit too much of a confrontational tone, but just because someone disagrees with you in a post doesn't mean that they're trolling.
Heavy Rain is a step towards the evolution of the point-and-click adventure genre of old.
Wii Fit is an exercise placebo for middle-aged women.
They are not even comparable. Just because some people consider them both to be "non-games" does not mean that they are the exact same type of thing. One leans away from 'game' and towards 'movie'; the other leans away from 'game' and towards 'workout video'. I mean... seriously. Come on now.
Wii Fit is an exercise placebo for middle-aged women.
They are not even comparable. Just because some people consider them both to be "non-games" does not mean that they are the exact same type of thing. One leans away from 'game' and towards 'movie'; the other leans away from 'game' and towards 'workout video'. I mean... seriously. Come on now.
Ok.. I'm not trying to be harsh.. but what is the point of this article? I can draw comparisons in any two objects I want, but it won't mean anything. I can draw comparisons between chicken eggs and potato chips.. or surfing and pro wrestling, if I try hard enough.
But what're you proving by doing such a thing? Meaningless correlations exist all around us.
Perfect example: "As such, there is no real way to "lose."
Are you starting to see the overlap?"
You also don't "lose" in The Sims. So now The Sims and Heavy Rain are not at all different?
You already know exactly what the difference is between Heavy Rain and Wii Fit. Honestly this just makes it sound like you're trying way too hard.
But what're you proving by doing such a thing? Meaningless correlations exist all around us.
Perfect example: "As such, there is no real way to "lose."
Are you starting to see the overlap?"
You also don't "lose" in The Sims. So now The Sims and Heavy Rain are not at all different?
You already know exactly what the difference is between Heavy Rain and Wii Fit. Honestly this just makes it sound like you're trying way too hard.
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