surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
An excellent write-up on a genuine issue gaming culture faces. Just like literature, film, and television before it, masculinity often seeks to monopolize and then hush those outside the monopoly. Someone HAS to analyze that shit.
Also, if you're into gender studies in gaming culture, check out Ewan Kirkland's articles on Silent Hill and masculinity if you already haven't.
Also, if you're into gender studies in gaming culture, check out Ewan Kirkland's articles on Silent Hill and masculinity if you already haven't.
I am always annoyed how some characters are women in games becuse its their purpose to fill a female role.
They are there as eye candy or a romance item. They never seem to just be a character that coincidentaly has boobs. (tho i think Skyrim has some very good examples of female characters)
They are there as eye candy or a romance item. They never seem to just be a character that coincidentaly has boobs. (tho i think Skyrim has some very good examples of female characters)
I think the main criticism of the initiatives is they dont accomplish much of anything but loudly complaining.
What needs to be done is for people who feel this way about games to go out and make ones that represent what they want, prove that a market exists there, etc. Telling an established industry that they are incorrect doesn't accomplish much of anything no matter how loud you do it, you have to show them.
What needs to be done is for people who feel this way about games to go out and make ones that represent what they want, prove that a market exists there, etc. Telling an established industry that they are incorrect doesn't accomplish much of anything no matter how loud you do it, you have to show them.
@MiraculousButthole:
I'm pretty sure you're a troll, but please go away anyway. You are a grade-A creep.
I'm pretty sure you're a troll, but please go away anyway. You are a grade-A creep.
It's more widespread than just the games industry, there's a severe lack of female presence in tech in general and it's not a new issue. When I went to university it was rare to have more than 1 or 2 women out of 40 or so students in any of my CS classes and I know that's not abnormal.
For science, women most often take biology, chemistry and math. Physics and CS are usually completely male dominated. The problem with the gender imbalance in the games industry need to be fixed further down the chain.
With the free tutorials/tools/languages/text editors/compilers/forums of the internet, where are all the women programmers?
For science, women most often take biology, chemistry and math. Physics and CS are usually completely male dominated. The problem with the gender imbalance in the games industry need to be fixed further down the chain.
With the free tutorials/tools/languages/text editors/compilers/forums of the internet, where are all the women programmers?
Excellent piece Byronic, a lot of good points that I agree with you on. It's a difficult issue, like positive discrimination or any attempt at culture change there's no quick, easy or obvious solution to the issue.
I think like you say pushing for women-only initiatives is good in the short-term and we just have to hope that in the longer term we'll see an overall cultural shift as a result; it'd be nice if we could just sit back and things could change by themselves but sometimes these things need a helping hand.
I think like you say pushing for women-only initiatives is good in the short-term and we just have to hope that in the longer term we'll see an overall cultural shift as a result; it'd be nice if we could just sit back and things could change by themselves but sometimes these things need a helping hand.
@hushlorentz
Id guess its mostly to do with gender roles and how children are raised. A lot of girls are probably pushed away from sciences their whole lives whether the people who are doing it realize it or not.
My CS classes in college were probably... 33% women.
Id guess its mostly to do with gender roles and how children are raised. A lot of girls are probably pushed away from sciences their whole lives whether the people who are doing it realize it or not.
My CS classes in college were probably... 33% women.
@kid gloves That's a much better ratio than my school for sure!
It's tough trying to analyze things like this as a man. I'm never sure if I don't see the barriers because I'm male or because they don't exist. It makes me sad to think people would feel outcast from an entire industry when there's so much opportunity to be a part of it. You can literally build full games in your spare time for free.
As for the subject matter of the article, I'll play the Machiavelli card and say whatever method gets the most creative people involved in the industry is ultimately good.
It's tough trying to analyze things like this as a man. I'm never sure if I don't see the barriers because I'm male or because they don't exist. It makes me sad to think people would feel outcast from an entire industry when there's so much opportunity to be a part of it. You can literally build full games in your spare time for free.
As for the subject matter of the article, I'll play the Machiavelli card and say whatever method gets the most creative people involved in the industry is ultimately good.
Good article on the subject of gaming/gender regarding the staff. Usually this revolves around paltry "character representation/sexualization" or population of guys vs. gals gaming today. I'm no longer surprised to see girls gaming with some of my own favorite games. Haven't been for years. In fact I'm more surprised when I'm talking to shallow girls who scoff or shake their head at videogame related stuff if it happens to be brought up while just chatting.
On the staff issue, I think it'll always be debated whether woman staff actually can bring some kind of unique ideas to gaming. I mean its not like women carry this special genes that allow them to generate a whole new dimension of innovation we've never seen before. Its not like Miyamoto and Ken Levine carry anything in common despite them both being men. The most lead women designers may do is tip the "protagonist" scale towards more female characters when they imagine their ideal selves adventuring through the land in their dream game. But female protagonists shouldn't be too hard of a change for the industry, female computerized avatars are just as capable as male computerized avatars. The industry needs to get on a more 50/50 scale for its characters unless its absolutely mandatory the character be 1 sex or the other.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I've always thought of both sexes equally, but its the "gender" that matters when making a game. Gender, to me, encompasses more than whether one is biologically penis or vagina...its the archetype one chooses to fit into. There are angsty Rambo-like men and then there are Napolean Dynamites. There are ditzy women and there are hardened women, etc. There are Sakuras and there are C. Vipers, there are Dantes and then there are Ryus. There are women and men who like to take their shirts off in public and then there are those who never would.
Its hard to stomach the whole "I hate the representation of women through this character". I believe 1 character cannot represent a whole 50% of human population and was never meant to. They may represent a certain gender archetype at most, but they are still their own individual. So I say in terms of game development workers, bring on the women if only to get rid of the "boys club" mentality that perpetuate some scumbags in the industry. But it's going to take more than WiG to get rid of all the complaints, its going to take artistic/creative endeavors to truly transcend gender. Something both sexes (obviously) are capable of doing in time.
On the staff issue, I think it'll always be debated whether woman staff actually can bring some kind of unique ideas to gaming. I mean its not like women carry this special genes that allow them to generate a whole new dimension of innovation we've never seen before. Its not like Miyamoto and Ken Levine carry anything in common despite them both being men. The most lead women designers may do is tip the "protagonist" scale towards more female characters when they imagine their ideal selves adventuring through the land in their dream game. But female protagonists shouldn't be too hard of a change for the industry, female computerized avatars are just as capable as male computerized avatars. The industry needs to get on a more 50/50 scale for its characters unless its absolutely mandatory the character be 1 sex or the other.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I've always thought of both sexes equally, but its the "gender" that matters when making a game. Gender, to me, encompasses more than whether one is biologically penis or vagina...its the archetype one chooses to fit into. There are angsty Rambo-like men and then there are Napolean Dynamites. There are ditzy women and there are hardened women, etc. There are Sakuras and there are C. Vipers, there are Dantes and then there are Ryus. There are women and men who like to take their shirts off in public and then there are those who never would.
Its hard to stomach the whole "I hate the representation of women through this character". I believe 1 character cannot represent a whole 50% of human population and was never meant to. They may represent a certain gender archetype at most, but they are still their own individual. So I say in terms of game development workers, bring on the women if only to get rid of the "boys club" mentality that perpetuate some scumbags in the industry. But it's going to take more than WiG to get rid of all the complaints, its going to take artistic/creative endeavors to truly transcend gender. Something both sexes (obviously) are capable of doing in time.
Okay, I know I may get flammed for this but... I think that one of the problems is the way women are treated in games, especially RPGs. They can't seem to stand up for themselves, and always seem to get kidnapped or some ridiculous plot device like that. I can understand it if she was weakened or something, but usually that is not the case. And trying to show us a character like Laura Croft or Tifa Lockheart and claiming that their chest size makes them a better role model for women, please, just shut up already. YOU"RE NOT HELPING! Women do not need to be dressed like some kind of prostitute to be a leading character(yes, I'm looking at games like Baretta and fighting games in general). We see this junk all the time in action movies, comic books, anime, and tv shows. It needs to stop if we are to make this world a better place for our children.
NEWSFLASH:
Men and Women are different.
End of debate. Please STFU now.
Each gender will gravitate to what they are inrerested in.
Men tend to build everything, and handle all the nuts & bolts of this worlds operation, and women take care of other stuff. Get over it.
NEWSFLASH: Women aren't into games as much as Men. Same with football, and Logic, and the ability to debate.
Stop trying to make the exception the rule.
Men and Women are different.
End of debate. Please STFU now.
Each gender will gravitate to what they are inrerested in.
Men tend to build everything, and handle all the nuts & bolts of this worlds operation, and women take care of other stuff. Get over it.
NEWSFLASH: Women aren't into games as much as Men. Same with football, and Logic, and the ability to debate.
Stop trying to make the exception the rule.
wow... nice to see a high quality, thought-provoking piece on the front page. There's been a lot of "fluff" lately.
This was extremely well written and you did make me re-examine my own personal stance on this issue, and to some small degree, you succeeded, however I still think that WIG initiatives are counter-productive.
First of all, I don't think that women make better games for women. A good game is a good game, a bad game is a bad game. I can't recall a single example where a female developer's influence on a game has seen a rise in it's popularity with female gamers. Female developers don't "need" to be in the industry in order for the industry to grow or to have broader mass appeal. Men are just as capable of creating games that appeal to women, as women are... though demographics being what they are, most games still seek to appeal to the existing primarily male audience, rather than seek to be more inclusive. For example, developers and publisher KNOW that women prefer to play as a female character in online shooter games. Unfortunately, the financial costs of including this option usually outweigh the possible benefits given the low demographics of females that play online FPS games. I've often argued that more women might play FPS games if the female character option were present, but the reality is that the financial cost for a minor bump in this demographic simply isn't worth it for most developers at this time.
However, that being said, women should have equal opportunity in the industry... the same as they should have equal opportunity in ANY industry. I've never been one to equate "equal opportunity" with "special initiatives" though.
As you've somewhat noted, the problem with gender identification of a "female game developer" is the same problem as "girl gamer". A natural backlash occurs whenever a group stands up and tries to say "we're special because we're a minority". The "myth" of no women in the industry may well outlast the reality, because the reality is that the gaming industry is changing at a phenomenal rate. A generation from now there may well be no such thing as a "girl gamer" and as more women play games, more women might feel passionate enough to enter the industry on their own merits.
I do believe that while women don't necessarily make better games for other women, they do bring a new perspective to games that can be appreciated by some women AND men. In order to be successful, game developers have to open their doors to a much broader spectrum of society - which includes different races, sexual orientations, ages, religions, and yes... genders. I think however that this will happen on it's own and that self-identification as a "female developer" - like "female gamer" can have unintended negative consequences. The negatives are not just the possible external perception and backlash, but also an internal perspective of feeling prejudiced against. When you gather with a bunch of other people who feel they are being repressed, it's much easier to feel you are being repressed and it can become a self-perpetuating cycle. Stop by at any "female" gamer site and it tends to be filled with gamers that feel that gaming is "unfair" to women, that they are still a rarity and should be treated differently. They tell their stories of "things guys said to me online" and yes, men are sometimes pigs to women... but they are pigs to other men too (and some women are pigs too). If all the women at those girl-gamer sites joined other gaming sites, the demographics of those sites would probably shift pretty quickly. Even here at Destructoid, women are no longer a rarity... at all. While we're still a minority, we're pretty much treated as not a big deal. The same will eventually happen for women developers... but segregation can make that road more difficult and that segregation can be something they have to live with, long past it's viability. There are still all female gamer websites and clans - yet their usefulness is long passed. They primarily still exist because someone is profiting from the concept of girl gamers... and in all reality, someone is profiting from setting up special conferences and programs aimed at female developers.
Meh... I rambled. Women should just be who they are. If they want to blog about the dickheads on COD who want to see their boobs, blog away. If they want to rage about blond fem-shep, rage away. If they want to make video games... make video games. They shouldn't hide who they are, but neither should they feel that what they say or do in any way represents "women". They represent nobody but themselves. Women in Games initiatives become dangerous when the opinions or thoughts of a few women start to seem like they represent the whole. They don't.
Still... great article... and I'm still kinda thinking on this topic. I'm still initially against these initiatives, but I do see your point.
This was extremely well written and you did make me re-examine my own personal stance on this issue, and to some small degree, you succeeded, however I still think that WIG initiatives are counter-productive.
First of all, I don't think that women make better games for women. A good game is a good game, a bad game is a bad game. I can't recall a single example where a female developer's influence on a game has seen a rise in it's popularity with female gamers. Female developers don't "need" to be in the industry in order for the industry to grow or to have broader mass appeal. Men are just as capable of creating games that appeal to women, as women are... though demographics being what they are, most games still seek to appeal to the existing primarily male audience, rather than seek to be more inclusive. For example, developers and publisher KNOW that women prefer to play as a female character in online shooter games. Unfortunately, the financial costs of including this option usually outweigh the possible benefits given the low demographics of females that play online FPS games. I've often argued that more women might play FPS games if the female character option were present, but the reality is that the financial cost for a minor bump in this demographic simply isn't worth it for most developers at this time.
However, that being said, women should have equal opportunity in the industry... the same as they should have equal opportunity in ANY industry. I've never been one to equate "equal opportunity" with "special initiatives" though.
As you've somewhat noted, the problem with gender identification of a "female game developer" is the same problem as "girl gamer". A natural backlash occurs whenever a group stands up and tries to say "we're special because we're a minority". The "myth" of no women in the industry may well outlast the reality, because the reality is that the gaming industry is changing at a phenomenal rate. A generation from now there may well be no such thing as a "girl gamer" and as more women play games, more women might feel passionate enough to enter the industry on their own merits.
I do believe that while women don't necessarily make better games for other women, they do bring a new perspective to games that can be appreciated by some women AND men. In order to be successful, game developers have to open their doors to a much broader spectrum of society - which includes different races, sexual orientations, ages, religions, and yes... genders. I think however that this will happen on it's own and that self-identification as a "female developer" - like "female gamer" can have unintended negative consequences. The negatives are not just the possible external perception and backlash, but also an internal perspective of feeling prejudiced against. When you gather with a bunch of other people who feel they are being repressed, it's much easier to feel you are being repressed and it can become a self-perpetuating cycle. Stop by at any "female" gamer site and it tends to be filled with gamers that feel that gaming is "unfair" to women, that they are still a rarity and should be treated differently. They tell their stories of "things guys said to me online" and yes, men are sometimes pigs to women... but they are pigs to other men too (and some women are pigs too). If all the women at those girl-gamer sites joined other gaming sites, the demographics of those sites would probably shift pretty quickly. Even here at Destructoid, women are no longer a rarity... at all. While we're still a minority, we're pretty much treated as not a big deal. The same will eventually happen for women developers... but segregation can make that road more difficult and that segregation can be something they have to live with, long past it's viability. There are still all female gamer websites and clans - yet their usefulness is long passed. They primarily still exist because someone is profiting from the concept of girl gamers... and in all reality, someone is profiting from setting up special conferences and programs aimed at female developers.
Meh... I rambled. Women should just be who they are. If they want to blog about the dickheads on COD who want to see their boobs, blog away. If they want to rage about blond fem-shep, rage away. If they want to make video games... make video games. They shouldn't hide who they are, but neither should they feel that what they say or do in any way represents "women". They represent nobody but themselves. Women in Games initiatives become dangerous when the opinions or thoughts of a few women start to seem like they represent the whole. They don't.
Still... great article... and I'm still kinda thinking on this topic. I'm still initially against these initiatives, but I do see your point.
Apologies for the summarization and obvious oversimplification, but this is essentially "Do two wrongs make a right? Yes!"
I think the juvenile outlook represented in the Bikini Kill image (fuck me? well fuck you too!) and the old adage (Ghandi?) of "An eye for an eye makes the world blind," sum up my personal opinions on why two wrongs do NOT, in fact, make a right.
Didn't we go through essentially the same conversation for years in the whole affirmative action debate? I know this is not a direct analog, but the core of the issue is the same: if a group has been disenfranchised we need to tip the scales until equality is achieved.
While I appreciate the value of diversity, I do not believe manufactured diversity is the answer. Would efforts perhaps be better spent understanding WHY there is inequality and addressing those issues, rather than just cheating the scales, so to speak?
I think the juvenile outlook represented in the Bikini Kill image (fuck me? well fuck you too!) and the old adage (Ghandi?) of "An eye for an eye makes the world blind," sum up my personal opinions on why two wrongs do NOT, in fact, make a right.
Didn't we go through essentially the same conversation for years in the whole affirmative action debate? I know this is not a direct analog, but the core of the issue is the same: if a group has been disenfranchised we need to tip the scales until equality is achieved.
While I appreciate the value of diversity, I do not believe manufactured diversity is the answer. Would efforts perhaps be better spent understanding WHY there is inequality and addressing those issues, rather than just cheating the scales, so to speak?
Initiatives for female developers - all for that. We need that diversity in studios and creatively.
Initiatives for female gamers and special treatment - no so much. Rules should be for everyone in a game, not initiatives and advantages given to female gamers for helping widen a publishers demographic.
As for the whole feminist angle - Some people see power in characters being sexualized and some don't and that is never going to end. There are women and men on both sides of the fence there. There's a TON of strong female characters that are ritually overlooked in RPGs, yet when they're really treated as equals there's always someone screaming about sexism and misogyny anyway (Ms. Prell springs to mind).
Initiatives for female gamers and special treatment - no so much. Rules should be for everyone in a game, not initiatives and advantages given to female gamers for helping widen a publishers demographic.
As for the whole feminist angle - Some people see power in characters being sexualized and some don't and that is never going to end. There are women and men on both sides of the fence there. There's a TON of strong female characters that are ritually overlooked in RPGs, yet when they're really treated as equals there's always someone screaming about sexism and misogyny anyway (Ms. Prell springs to mind).
@BrainWasherAttendent
I generally respect your comments so I am going to assume that comment was some sort of weird reverse way of showing the idiocy of believing men and women occupy two different worlds. The differences between men and women are a lot less serve then we realize. Across cultures, time, and demographics, the idea of what it is to be male or female varies widely. With more overlap then we care to admit.
In regards to the differences between abilities between men and women. Both are capable of performing the same tasks and are only guided into separate roles by socialization.
I generally respect your comments so I am going to assume that comment was some sort of weird reverse way of showing the idiocy of believing men and women occupy two different worlds. The differences between men and women are a lot less serve then we realize. Across cultures, time, and demographics, the idea of what it is to be male or female varies widely. With more overlap then we care to admit.
In regards to the differences between abilities between men and women. Both are capable of performing the same tasks and are only guided into separate roles by socialization.
Great article. Some of the comments.shows the typical hyper defensiveness that is unnecessary.
Also, development of games has nothing to do with physical ability. If there are meaningful and positive ways to integrate women into videogame development, by all means they should try. None of it threatens any status quo. As always, the defensive attitude is based on the assumption that something new will ruin something old. Same old paranoia.
Also, development of games has nothing to do with physical ability. If there are meaningful and positive ways to integrate women into videogame development, by all means they should try. None of it threatens any status quo. As always, the defensive attitude is based on the assumption that something new will ruin something old. Same old paranoia.
Wow, not gonna lie, this piece is way above the other features Dtoid produces. I hope you keep making them! A very interesting read indeed.
"In regards to the differences between abilities between men and women. Both are capable of performing the same tasks and are only guided into separate roles by socialization."
@Joe... all I could think when I read that was "childbirth"! LOL!. The reality is that there are some differences between the genders, and that gender equality doesn't mean both genders are the same, just that they are regarded as equal. I guess this is partly where I take exception to the whole WIG thing. I'm a feminist, which means I believe that women are the equals of men (not the same). Just as I don't want to see all-male business or golf clubs, I don't want to see all-female conferences.
@Joe... all I could think when I read that was "childbirth"! LOL!. The reality is that there are some differences between the genders, and that gender equality doesn't mean both genders are the same, just that they are regarded as equal. I guess this is partly where I take exception to the whole WIG thing. I'm a feminist, which means I believe that women are the equals of men (not the same). Just as I don't want to see all-male business or golf clubs, I don't want to see all-female conferences.
It's bound to happen in an industry where the biggest actors see money as the bottom-line.
If the goal is to chug out as many big sellers as possible to make the most money with them and allow them to repeat the cycle... then they will figure seemingly good arguments to back this corporate ideology. "The game will not sell", "will not appeal the demographic", "will cost too much to add female elements". Especially if those women characters seem bland to them / they do not serve the sex-sales point.
It's a question of choice; make a game with the purpose to generate revenue and every element that might hinder even a little bit this goal is edged out. Or make a game that carries a social weight and reflects adequately our society's pulse but requires to put in more effort and risks to lose the more "excitable" demographics. (Let's face it; we have a big dem. of male obsessed with sexuality in this hobby.)
Similar choice with the jobs; why pay the women the same if it's socially still accepted to exploit them? Or they could do the better thing and uphold equality, but that could scare some shareholders and they wouldn't want that.
It's about responsibility; go the easy way or the hard way.
We need ideological companies even if they are small, that push those values forward and prove their worth while struggling so that they can become mainstream. Either that or wish bigger producers to spontaneously evolve their arguments towards a fairer reflection of our society.
Personally I'd be against "forcing" that with laws or requiring every game to have a social component to it. Just do what you wish but keep in mind the social weight you might carry and where you want to sit with it.
If the goal is to chug out as many big sellers as possible to make the most money with them and allow them to repeat the cycle... then they will figure seemingly good arguments to back this corporate ideology. "The game will not sell", "will not appeal the demographic", "will cost too much to add female elements". Especially if those women characters seem bland to them / they do not serve the sex-sales point.
It's a question of choice; make a game with the purpose to generate revenue and every element that might hinder even a little bit this goal is edged out. Or make a game that carries a social weight and reflects adequately our society's pulse but requires to put in more effort and risks to lose the more "excitable" demographics. (Let's face it; we have a big dem. of male obsessed with sexuality in this hobby.)
Similar choice with the jobs; why pay the women the same if it's socially still accepted to exploit them? Or they could do the better thing and uphold equality, but that could scare some shareholders and they wouldn't want that.
It's about responsibility; go the easy way or the hard way.
We need ideological companies even if they are small, that push those values forward and prove their worth while struggling so that they can become mainstream. Either that or wish bigger producers to spontaneously evolve their arguments towards a fairer reflection of our society.
Personally I'd be against "forcing" that with laws or requiring every game to have a social component to it. Just do what you wish but keep in mind the social weight you might carry and where you want to sit with it.
@miraculous, I disagree. Anything can be considered art. Just because something does not have artistic pretension does not rule out the distinction.
Case in point, Pacman, Super Mario, Sonic, all Final Fantasy games, Metal Gear Solid, Shadow of Colossus, etc etc all have some kind of violence and suspense that the gameplay centers around. And many would say guns, swords, weaponry and martial arts are artforms in their own right.
Case in point, Pacman, Super Mario, Sonic, all Final Fantasy games, Metal Gear Solid, Shadow of Colossus, etc etc all have some kind of violence and suspense that the gameplay centers around. And many would say guns, swords, weaponry and martial arts are artforms in their own right.
@mistrum, that is the point, though. It is an issue that goes beyond dollar values. Besides, just because an economic model is not there, it does not mean the option is to remain hands off in only economic terms.
Again, if these projects have a specific philosophical goal and is not negatively impacting anyone, they have a right to exist at least for the time being
Again, if these projects have a specific philosophical goal and is not negatively impacting anyone, they have a right to exist at least for the time being
I worked for a school project, on a videogame created entirely by people who never met, over four months.
We conversed using a soft forum, and updated our various additions to the project individually through dropbox.
After four months we all gather to see our final product together at a small party at an agreed upon location.
Our lead programmer was a thirty three year old mother of two, and she could script a page faster than I could reach down to scratch my balls. Mad respect, not for being a female programmer, but for being a GOOD programmer.
This female gamer argument, feels alot like playing the race card, it's just another way to turn a situation based on victimization.
We conversed using a soft forum, and updated our various additions to the project individually through dropbox.
After four months we all gather to see our final product together at a small party at an agreed upon location.
Our lead programmer was a thirty three year old mother of two, and she could script a page faster than I could reach down to scratch my balls. Mad respect, not for being a female programmer, but for being a GOOD programmer.
This female gamer argument, feels alot like playing the race card, it's just another way to turn a situation based on victimization.
There's that wage gap thing again. If I recall correctly, Kotaku has an article stating that female game devs in Europe are actually paid more than men. I've also seen people point out that wage gap in general has been repeatedly proven to be a myth. Not really taking sides here, but I honestly don't know who is lying about what.
I can say from personal experience that I've seen a lot of focus on getting women into game development. Women-only scholarships and the like. I've also seen other jobs actively seeking women. Do complaints about equality ever take these into consideration? I doubt it. They only focus on the negatives and not the positives.
I often get the impression that there's so much focus on sexism against women to the point that nobody pays attention to sexism against men. People forget that sexism goes both ways. Look up men's rights on Wikipedia. That's an interesting article.
I can say from personal experience that I've seen a lot of focus on getting women into game development. Women-only scholarships and the like. I've also seen other jobs actively seeking women. Do complaints about equality ever take these into consideration? I doubt it. They only focus on the negatives and not the positives.
I often get the impression that there's so much focus on sexism against women to the point that nobody pays attention to sexism against men. People forget that sexism goes both ways. Look up men's rights on Wikipedia. That's an interesting article.
Oh look, it's this shit again.
Bringing this up just adds to the problem. Plain and simple. If I was a nicer person, I could word it like Clarlietime did but I'm sick of walking on eggshells.
Bringing this up just adds to the problem. Plain and simple. If I was a nicer person, I could word it like Clarlietime did but I'm sick of walking on eggshells.
a friend's sister-in-law makes $65 hourly on the laptop. She has been laid off for 6 months but last month her pay was $19426 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Go to this web site and read more NuttyRich dot com
Honestly, no one can say that having more of any one gender will help bring a better presence of that gender in what is, as this industry largely is, a collaborative work. Its just, if the characters are forced in, and don't work, then you can't expect your game to suddenly be better off for it because they were in there -it won't win you any points because you met some magical quota, if anything it's going to hurt your game and probably get your studio shutdown.
A good example to this is a debate I had on another (non-gaming) website earlier this year about the lack of women in movie, The Aventures of Tin Tin. One individual said they'd watch the movie because it doesn't have any strong female leads. The majority of those involved with the conversation asked why it needed to when there's never been a strong female presence in the source material in the first place.
Tin Tin has a largely male cast, yet its appealed to all ages and genders for decades -there was no reason for it to suddenly have an unnecessary strong female character just to appeal to the female sensibility. You either came to enjoy a good, beautifully animated adventure movie, or you didn't. The consensus from the majority was that a female wouldn't have hurt the movie one bit -but they would have stood out as not needing to be there in the first place and would have been called out quickly by critics.
The counter argument used was Disney's Tangled. Tangled is a largely girl orientated movie, with a visual tone that's also largely considered feminine, but Disney tried to force in a heavier presence for the male lead (some say it was a last minute decision) because they found they weren't getting the attention they wanted for the movie from young males, losing lots of money without them filling those seats. So the male lead gets bumped up more to try to get boys, but boys didn't fall into the trap because -obviously- this is a pretty girly looking movie that they didn't want to go see. Disney wasn't all that happy with the results. Trying to force in the unnecessary REALLY didn't work for them -and the funny thing is, it was the opposite situation that the gaming world sees, considering Animation is frequented by strong characters of both genders, but Disney movies especially are frequented by some pretty strong female characters.
The characters are going to need to work for the setting and tone of the story, or else they'll just stand out and you'll be forced into distraction trying to make them fit, when you should be much more focused on other areas of your story that are now being hurt by the unnatural attention to an unnecessary character..
A good example to this is a debate I had on another (non-gaming) website earlier this year about the lack of women in movie, The Aventures of Tin Tin. One individual said they'd watch the movie because it doesn't have any strong female leads. The majority of those involved with the conversation asked why it needed to when there's never been a strong female presence in the source material in the first place.
Tin Tin has a largely male cast, yet its appealed to all ages and genders for decades -there was no reason for it to suddenly have an unnecessary strong female character just to appeal to the female sensibility. You either came to enjoy a good, beautifully animated adventure movie, or you didn't. The consensus from the majority was that a female wouldn't have hurt the movie one bit -but they would have stood out as not needing to be there in the first place and would have been called out quickly by critics.
The counter argument used was Disney's Tangled. Tangled is a largely girl orientated movie, with a visual tone that's also largely considered feminine, but Disney tried to force in a heavier presence for the male lead (some say it was a last minute decision) because they found they weren't getting the attention they wanted for the movie from young males, losing lots of money without them filling those seats. So the male lead gets bumped up more to try to get boys, but boys didn't fall into the trap because -obviously- this is a pretty girly looking movie that they didn't want to go see. Disney wasn't all that happy with the results. Trying to force in the unnecessary REALLY didn't work for them -and the funny thing is, it was the opposite situation that the gaming world sees, considering Animation is frequented by strong characters of both genders, but Disney movies especially are frequented by some pretty strong female characters.
The characters are going to need to work for the setting and tone of the story, or else they'll just stand out and you'll be forced into distraction trying to make them fit, when you should be much more focused on other areas of your story that are now being hurt by the unnatural attention to an unnecessary character..
This is much, much larger than the games industry, and it's self-important to think it can be corrected within those boundaries.
I 100% agree with the views of Mare Sheppard in the referenced article.
Game publishers and developers err on the side of commercial viability - which is a fancy way of saying they play it safe. If you're a hiring manager for a developer, which is safer to meet your goals of getting a game done on time and on budget? An average guy who's made a few modest projects, or a woman with a portfolio even slightly tinged with feminist bias?
If women want to get ahead in an industry dominated by male figures, they need to set their gender aside and focus on achieving within the norms of the industry. Otherwise, cut the established players out of the picture, and take your chances with the indie route.
Clamoring from the outside for the industry to change itself is not productive. Expecting special accommodation is for persons with disabilities.
There are differences between genders, but that doesn't necessarily mean they apply to every function or profession both genders can take part of.
I 100% agree with the views of Mare Sheppard in the referenced article.
Game publishers and developers err on the side of commercial viability - which is a fancy way of saying they play it safe. If you're a hiring manager for a developer, which is safer to meet your goals of getting a game done on time and on budget? An average guy who's made a few modest projects, or a woman with a portfolio even slightly tinged with feminist bias?
If women want to get ahead in an industry dominated by male figures, they need to set their gender aside and focus on achieving within the norms of the industry. Otherwise, cut the established players out of the picture, and take your chances with the indie route.
Clamoring from the outside for the industry to change itself is not productive. Expecting special accommodation is for persons with disabilities.
There are differences between genders, but that doesn't necessarily mean they apply to every function or profession both genders can take part of.
@Elza :P
Tell me though would you be justified in saying all women are capable of childbirth? So why are we capable of saying women should keep out of math and science?
Tell me though would you be justified in saying all women are capable of childbirth? So why are we capable of saying women should keep out of math and science?
@MiraculousButthole I guess so. The point I was trying to make(and failed at doing) was that I've met plenty of female gamers who think that characters such as Tifa and Aerith from FFVII are pandering to guys only. Truth be told, they are. I agree with you on the whole comic book/movie/tv aspect. If developers would quit relying on graphics to tell a story, maybe we'd move towards something like an artform. Sadly, even though I watch Extracreditz on Youtube talk about ways games can be an artform, I really don't think its going to happen anytime soon. Until they start putting in new and creative designs, RPGs are just going to seem like they're more style over substance. Although, some of the older RPGs have VERY strong stories and characters, and could be seen by some as art, but they're so very few and FAR, far apart. Sorry if you disagree but this is want I think. :)
Let me rephrase that last bit. Why are we justified in drawing conclusions from someones perceived gender? What is essential to being a man or a woman? Having a penis or vagina? The right chromosomes?
Well written article, Stephen, although I tend to agree with Sheppard on the labeling and exclusivity. While it may bring more women into the industry, I'd question if doing so by showing special treatment is really the path the industry should be taking. Personally, I feel it IS alienating women even more by sending a message that our views are so different from men when it comes to the gaming industry, that we need to huddle together in some safe spot just to voice them.
Look at all the "girl gamer" groups that are left out there. What do they represent? Sure, it gives them a place to feel at home with their peers, a place to discuss things without the pressure of being harassed for being a female gamer, but how many of these women do you see crossing over to sites such as Destructoid and voicing their opinions? How many women do you hear speak up over the mic in a multiplayer game? Did having these "special female" groups do anything to help them in feeling at ease in a mixed gaming environment? Not from what I've seen.
Isn't having something like Women in Games initiatives sending the exact message we don't want to send - that we, as women, can't hold our own when it comes to being in the gaming industry? It's not going to take special groups to get more women in the industry. It's going to take a few women to stand up and show that they're capable of holding their own in the field. To show that our influences can mix with what's already out there and ultimately lead to better things.
It's a long process, but it's more rewarding than getting there by use of special treatment.
Look at all the "girl gamer" groups that are left out there. What do they represent? Sure, it gives them a place to feel at home with their peers, a place to discuss things without the pressure of being harassed for being a female gamer, but how many of these women do you see crossing over to sites such as Destructoid and voicing their opinions? How many women do you hear speak up over the mic in a multiplayer game? Did having these "special female" groups do anything to help them in feeling at ease in a mixed gaming environment? Not from what I've seen.
Isn't having something like Women in Games initiatives sending the exact message we don't want to send - that we, as women, can't hold our own when it comes to being in the gaming industry? It's not going to take special groups to get more women in the industry. It's going to take a few women to stand up and show that they're capable of holding their own in the field. To show that our influences can mix with what's already out there and ultimately lead to better things.
It's a long process, but it's more rewarding than getting there by use of special treatment.
Aequitas and Jaded said exactly what I was thinking but phrased it far more eloquently than I could have. Great fucking comments, guys!
Well, Jaded, as a woman who runs one of those sites and now works at Dtoid, I can say they do more than you think.
I don’t know about you guys but the more I read the comments the more I see how stupid developers and publishers are to not appeal to the female market. Business wise we are talking of an untapped market of pretty much the same size of your current user base. A market that you will probably have to nurture before you can capitalize on it but if done we are probably talking about a second coming of the wii as far as numbers go. Also let’s remember that appealing to the young girl market with quality products means that when those girl grow up you will have a much sexually diverse gamer generation.
Guess what girls/guys? When (and if) women actually become a sizable portion of the gaming population, then game developers will actually cater to them. Do you really think there is some kind of conspiracy going on here to actively exclude women from the gaming industry and games in general? Of course not. Game developers make games which appeal to male fantasies because - drum roll please - the vast majority of people who play video games are males. If that changes in the future, then so will the game industry.
On a related note, everybody needs to stop freaking out whenever we find someplace where the gender distribution is not 50/50. ON NOES! THERE AREN'T EXACTLY 50% WOMEN IN THE INDUSTRY. IT MUST BE A MISOGYNISTIC PLOT TO KEEP WOMEN DOWN! Get off your high horse and take a chill pill. Sometimes there is indeed gender discrimination, but differences in gender are just as likely, if not more likely, to be the cause. Whether you want to admit it or not, the average male psyche is different from the average female psyche. Some differences are due to societal upbringing, but others are simply due to genetics. Hard science backs up these facts. It is unreasonable, and quite frankly, ridiculous to expect that the average woman is just as capable and interested in areas as the average male, and vice-versa.
On a related note, everybody needs to stop freaking out whenever we find someplace where the gender distribution is not 50/50. ON NOES! THERE AREN'T EXACTLY 50% WOMEN IN THE INDUSTRY. IT MUST BE A MISOGYNISTIC PLOT TO KEEP WOMEN DOWN! Get off your high horse and take a chill pill. Sometimes there is indeed gender discrimination, but differences in gender are just as likely, if not more likely, to be the cause. Whether you want to admit it or not, the average male psyche is different from the average female psyche. Some differences are due to societal upbringing, but others are simply due to genetics. Hard science backs up these facts. It is unreasonable, and quite frankly, ridiculous to expect that the average woman is just as capable and interested in areas as the average male, and vice-versa.
@Holly - I respect that. You're a strong voice here on Destructoid, and you've proven women can play an important role in the gaming industry. But did being involved with that site give you the motivation to move forward, or are you an individual who would have been motivated to do so anyway?
I'm not aware of the site you're involved with, or if it was started by you, but to be clear I'm not trying to knock down female gaming sites. From my experience with them the majority of members tend to stay within the group.
I'm not aware of the site you're involved with, or if it was started by you, but to be clear I'm not trying to knock down female gaming sites. From my experience with them the majority of members tend to stay within the group.
My view on this is feminists blow everything out of proportion. They need to quit trying to force everybody around them to change and make their own niche in the gaming field. If they want feminine equality, then go make those games and sell them. If you or other feminists are not willing to do that, then you don't deserve the right to complain about something you aren't willing to dirty your hands with.
Join the world, don't try to force your views on it. Joining the world stands a much higher chance of changing things than trying to force view points down people's throats. Show your kinds of games, allow people to purchase them, don't make them feminist propaganda, and instead make them good games that feminists can be proud of without trying to make the main character force feminist propaganda down every players throat. Get people used to a fully clothed, female protagonist, a strong character in a good game. Make another game like that, and another, and eventually, if the games are good, people will come to see the non-nude'ish female as the cool ones in games.
Join the world, don't try to force your views on it. Joining the world stands a much higher chance of changing things than trying to force view points down people's throats. Show your kinds of games, allow people to purchase them, don't make them feminist propaganda, and instead make them good games that feminists can be proud of without trying to make the main character force feminist propaganda down every players throat. Get people used to a fully clothed, female protagonist, a strong character in a good game. Make another game like that, and another, and eventually, if the games are good, people will come to see the non-nude'ish female as the cool ones in games.
Well that's a good question Jaded. I think there was a time when my only intention was to stay within the community I created. I don't know that when I started that I really intended to become a games blogger. I started getting feedback from the women around me and realized that for many of them, I was the only gaming news source they felt comfortable subscribing to. In that sense, I almost felt a sense of duty. At that point I attempted to branch out and promote myself, which resulted in a job offer at a larger site. I trained there, and with Holmes' encouragement, applied here at Dtoid at the end of last year. I think at least part of my motivation came from knowing that there were people who appreciated my perspective and wanted more.
As for WiG, I always have mixed feelings on this stuff. Personally, I see it as an encouragement, an assurance to women that their interest in games is socially acceptable in order to make them feel more at easy with their hobby, perhaps to the point where they could make it a profession. On the other hand, it incites hatred from people who see it as some kind of a threat/insult. I don't subscribe to the belief that women just aren't interested in certain things because SCIENCE. But I do know that social conditioning has a huge impact, and having put interests into little boxes determined by gender has only created a self fulfilling prophesy. I don't think these scholarships are saying we as women can't do it on our own but instead express that we are in fact wanted here.
@Chronomitch according to statistics we're 40% of the gaming population, and in terms of buying electronics the top consumer in all areas except flat screen televisions.
@Tiredman you do realize you're basically saying "if you don't like these games, make your own", which is what the scholarship seeks to encourage?
@Chronomitch according to statistics we're 40% of the gaming population, and in terms of buying electronics the top consumer in all areas except flat screen televisions.
@Tiredman you do realize you're basically saying "if you don't like these games, make your own", which is what the scholarship seeks to encourage?
@Holly
Do you have the source for those statistics. I find it really difficult to believe that 40% of the people playing hardcore games (as opposed to the glut of casual iPhone, Kinect, and Wii games) are women. But feel free to prove me wrong.
Do you have the source for those statistics. I find it really difficult to believe that 40% of the people playing hardcore games (as opposed to the glut of casual iPhone, Kinect, and Wii games) are women. But feel free to prove me wrong.
A 2010 study by the Entertainment Software Administration stated 46% of game purchasers are female, and that the number of women playing online is 42%.
Color me surprised then. The industry needs to get on this demographic and start making money from them.
We need people like Kathleen Hanna making video games, god damn it.
The indie scene is a great place for women to make big things happen. Don't even bother with the bullshit "boy's club" of corporate studio culture. Develop independently, play by your own rules, and do it better than they can. You'll start seeing big changes.
This applies to all aspiring developers.
This was a lovely article, by the way.
The indie scene is a great place for women to make big things happen. Don't even bother with the bullshit "boy's club" of corporate studio culture. Develop independently, play by your own rules, and do it better than they can. You'll start seeing big changes.
This applies to all aspiring developers.
This was a lovely article, by the way.
follow
