games  anime  |  toys
Destructoid is gaming news, community, videos, and sometimes love. Take the tour or jump in with Facebook:

 



deux

 

If you haven’t read Part One, do that. It’s about how all video game scores are ridiculously inflated, and that this is a serious problem. Part Two (aka, this part) tries to get at why reviews are so inflated, and exactly why this is a bad thing.

If you have read Part One, then you’re cooler than the douchebags in the first paragraph.

Go ahead and hit the jump for part two.

But beware: it’s much, much longer.

So, why do game scores tend to be so overwhelmingly positive?

There’s obviously no way to know for sure -- if there was, we would have figured it out by now and the ratings thing would no longer be a problem. But we can hypothesize, can’t we? We can hypothesize until our fingers fall off.

 

tammany hall

-A lack of journalistic integrity

The last time I said something like this, it didn’t turn out so well. But do keep in mind that bribes are occasionally an issue. This was most likely the story behind Gamespy’s Donkey Konga review, or the fact that Nintendo Power was pressured by corporate to switch from a 1-10 rating system to a 1-5 system simply because it was impossible for any game to get a perfect score.

And even when bribes aren’t an issue, the potential problem of a gaming news organization offending a major corporation is. If you write for a small, up-and-coming website, could you really afford to call the latest Microsoft game a piece of shit if there was the possibility that they might one day share privileged information with you? As Sean Fischer, editor-in-chief of Allrpg.com says:

"There have been times at websites to which I contribute where a game recieved a low score, and we were subsequently contacted by publisher with a statement of their surprise. The conflict here comes from the fact that no one wants to alienate their contacts. By currying favor with PR outlets you're let in on more exclusive stories, more swag, plugs, and a plethora of perks. Maintaining journalistic integrity in such situations is difficult, especially when your community is small or when you personally rely on those contacts for a majority of your journalistic work. It's a careful balancing act that journalists have always had to deal with."  

-The “academic” system

As many of you wrote in the comments of Part One (capitalized to denote awesomeness), it appears that game reviewers subscribe much more heavily to the educational system of grading than a true 1-10 scale. In the worlds of school and video game reviewing, a 70% is average, an 80% is passing, and a 50% is failing. It’s very likely that reviewers collectively adopted this method of thinking, without any thought for why: in a school environment, the stakes are obviously higher and teachers should want to achieve the best out of students (or, if not the best, at least something approaching an above-average performance). There’s really no reason to adopt this school of thought to video game reviewing. But I’m getting ahead of myself -- this will be discussed in much more detail near the end.

-Video game reviewers are not impervious to hype

To quote Sean Fischer again (the man knows what he’s talking about):

"Hype is not just something that affects those purchasing games, but the reviewer as well. Expectations can color a reviewer's judgment by causing them to overlook flaws completely because they are so enamored with the aspects of the game that were hyped and executed well. The problem here is that overlooking those flaws in a review is being, in a way, deceitful to your audience. A good reviewer should take all flaws into account when composing the review, and at least make them known, rather than glossing over them in favor of the shiny aspects. This is, in the end, probably the largest problem out there when it comes to reviewing games, especially when coupled with the confrontation of Public Relations."

 

casblanca 

-Interactivity alone makes games intrinsically better

Let’s say you are given two options. You can either watch a guy dive across tables and shoot hundreds of armed men in a whirlwind of bullets and gore, or you can do it for yourself. Which would you pick? Obviously, the interactive aspect of games makes them more appealing and entertaining than other art forms in certain respects, which would explain why they tend to be reviewed so much more favorably. If this is the case, however, it’s unfortunate: if one art form includes aspects of another, you judge it according to its own criteria, not the criteria of a completely separate medium. Nobody would ever say Casablanca is a horrible film because there weren’t enough interactive sections.

-Loving video games is unlike loving film or literature

Video games are a relatively new art form, with a much more close-knit community than other mediums of entertainment. We are all connected in the things we love, or don’t: we know the frustration of hearing that our princess is in another castle in the same way we know the triumph when you finally meet her. The interactive medium, by its very nature, frequently encourages human interaction. If, as a community, we all share this very specific, very indescribable love for video games, then it’s no wonder that the reviews tend to be higher than they oughta be.

 

wimp

-Reviewers are pussies

Sean Fischer also had something to say about this, but I need to still pretend that I have ideas of my own, at times. So I won’t be quoting him. But suffice it to say that many reviewers -- and this also ties into the whole “hype” thing -- are terrified at the prospect of negatively reviewing a game in a popular franchise. Even if it’s flawed to the point of mediocrity (a la MGS2, which I enjoyed but would not rate higher than a 6), reviewers will still heap praise on a game (A) to avoid community backlash or (B) out of fear that their opinion is in the vast minority, which will make them appear to either have awful taste or a lack of video game knowledge. A video game journalist’s reputation is on the line with every review he or she writes. It isn’t shocking that sometimes the reviewer will hold back on his or her opinions for fear of tarnishing that reputation.

-We’re all morons

Hey, it’s a possibility.

-Most video games are above average

Yeah, we’re hypothesizing, but it’s still very unlikely. If someone was to walk into an EB Games, close their eyes, and randomly choose a game from the shelf, they would most likely not get something good. You might think there’s a 50-50 chance you’d come up with God of War or at least something kind of cool like Red Dead Revolver, but all the more likely is that you’d end up holding a crappy bowling sim or a licensed platformer starring The Olsen Twins. Go ahead, try it. I’ll wait.

And besides, what about RottenTomatoes.com? They had to raise their “fresh” criteria from 60% to 70% for video games, simply because so many poor games are highly reviewed. 

 

olivier

 

Is the inflation of video game scores a bad thing?

Yes. As previously mentioned, video gaming is an extremely expensive hobby to keep up. If a game that only deserves a 6 really gets an 8, then the individual consumer is more likely to buy it and subsequently get disappointed by it. While many of us end up selling our games on eBay and recouping a large percentage of the money we lose, it’s still a hassle. While it is ultimately up to every individual person to decide whether or not to buy a game, it’s difficult to decide for yourself when very few organizations will give you a detailed, uncompromising critique of a game. 

Not to mention the widespread positive reviews of almost all video games make the medium seem that much less relevant in our society. If a community that loves something is not willing to dissect, pick, and criticize at every aspect of the games they love, then it essentially turns the entire art form into one global circle-jerk. If the community continues to sugar-coat its opinions toward most video games, it will fail to grow in any socially relevant way. You can watch a film student dissect his favorite movie, point out all its flaws, and still love it. You can listen to a lit student talk about how horrible Hamlet’s narrative structure is, while still adoring it as a piece of art. As of today, you probably can’t find a Halo fan who is willing to admit that the game he loves is deeply, horrendously flawed in many gameplay and story departments.

 

killcreek

 

No more teachers, no more books

This relates back to the above theory concerning educational-style grading. While a 70% average makes sense for educational purposes, it doesn’t fit when applied to reviewing video games. Art should be judged harshly, not with kiddie gloves. As school boards across the United States are finding out, making good grades easier to achieve tends to promote mediocrity. One could make a case that we are seeing the same results in the video game industry. Half-baked movie tie-ins are given 7/10 (passing), undiscerning consumers buy the piece of crap, and more pieces of crap just like it get made. Harsher game reviews would probably mean greater punishments for those games that deserve it.

Not to mention that on a 0-100 educational grading scale, everything after 65% is summed up by one letter: F (or E, if you attend a more politically correct institution). This is because, in an educational environment, all that matters is understanding the material and scoring well on tests. If one student has an A and another has a D, we can point to specific, absolutely definable reasons as to why those students got those grades. (whether we're talking about test scores or homework, or whatever). In the educational system, it doesn't matter if the student gets a 30% versus a 40%, because, no matter what, the administration will arrive to the same conclusion -- the student simply isn’t getting the material. The educational environment works on a simple pass/fail system, and if the student is failing, then that is all that matters. The why of it (laziness, learning disability, etc), while of interest to the student, the student’s parents, and the administration, have no part in judging how those grades come out. To the grading system itself, a sub-average student is a sub-average student is a sub-average student.

But video games do not simply “pass” or “fail.” With video games, you most definitely CAN enjoy a sub-average game for some of its aspects. We all have our "guilty pleasure" games -- those games that aren't technically very good, but that we enjoy certain aspects of nonetheless. Just because a game is sub-average doesn't mean certain people won't enjoy it, and therefore it matters that sub-average games are differentiated from other sub-average games through use of the 1-5 section of the scale. If Samurai Western gets rated a 2/10 because it’s repetitive and dull, I want to know why it still got two points. Is it because the combat is still fun, if only for a little while? If The Punisher gets a 4/10, what aspects of it are actually kind of interesting? Did the torture sequences alone warrant the two extra points that Samurai Western didn’t get? Were we to lump these two games together in an educational grading system (which, in the case of games, means 6-10) they’d probably both be graded within half a point of one another. Grading games in the educational systems lumps mediocre games in with one another without giving a thought toward their redeemable aspects.

Also, the educational grading system works in a school system because there is one clear, concrete goal: learn the material. It doesn't matter how you do it, and only one easily definable thing is being graded: your performance in class.

kamario


Video games are far too complex, and can succeed or fail in far too many ways, to deserve the same kind of treatment. A game can have good gameplay but godawful graphics, or a great story but underwhelming gameplay. While these games may be below-average because of their flaws, that does not make the things they do well any less important, or worthy of attention. Placing them below 5 on a scale tells the gamer that the game has some serious flaws, but its specific placement within the 1-5 bracket can help tell the gamer exactly how bad those flaws are, and how good the other aspects of the game are.

The educational system also creates serious problems when one compares fantastic games to not-so-fantastic ones, as TheRob91 pointed out in Part One. Resident Evil 4 and Super Mario 64 get 9.57/10, while Kameo and Madden 07 get an 8.06/10. Is it really justified that some of the greatest games of all time are only one or two points away from games that are merely passable? The educational grading system is to blame for this, because it doesn’t discriminate between sub-average games at all, and only minutely shows the difference between above-average ones by restricting them to the 8-10 part of the scale.

 

headshot

 

On the other hand…

Perhaps looking at the 1-10 rating system in the way mentioned in Part One. Maybe to deem 10 “perfect” and 1 “shit” is wrong. Perhaps this view of video game criticism refuses to acknowledge the most important aspect of video gaming: fun.

Fun is something that cannot be measured, and, for the most part, can’t really be explained. About 80 percent of the reviews for Resident Evil 4 and Gears of War cite “satisfying” gameplay as the main reason the game succeeds. But what is “satisfying”? You can say it’s the feeling you get when you chainsaw an alien Locust, or the way you feel when you decapitate a zombie with a shotgun blast, but you’re not really explaining what the word means. You’re just using anecdotal examples to illustrate a point.

And fun can definitely make up for many of a game’s shortcomings, as Dan Hsu would admit. Why should a game that is completely adequate, totally un-innovative, but without flaws be graded higher than a truly fun game which fails in certain areas, but is absolutely phenomenal in others?  By the rationale of the 1-10 scale proposed at the beginning of this article, innovation and originality have no place in determining the overall rating in the game.

But, as any gamer can tell you, innovation and originality have a hell of a place in determining fun.

How do you measure fun? To try to grade it with any degree of accuracy, one would have to make a much stricter 1-10 scale (which would result in the vast majority of games falling in the 1-5 range), leaving the 9 and 10 spots for only the most perfect of the perfect – those games that simultaneously innovate while remaining absent of any flaws. Demanding criteria, to say the least. Personally, I’d be in favor of it (I’m picky like that), but it goes without saying that nearly every other gamer on the planet would not.

So, an overhaul of the system, while possible, would be unpopular.

photoshopskillz

What can we do?

Well, the 1-5 system has been used in film and book reviews since the dawn of time. As awa64 pointed out in the comments of Part One, its lack of specificity is a benefit: a 5/5 would have to mean something other than “perfect”, and a 1/5 would not mean “absolute crap.” It’d make things easier on reviewers, and would make drastically high or low review scores less deserving of insult.

But better yet, just get rid of scores altogether. Hundreds of gamers have suggested it. It’d cut down on fanboy BS (several people who sent me hate mail for my Zelda review only looked at the score, not the actual review), it would put a greater pressure on the reviewer to actually describe what the game feels like instead of just falling back on a randomly assigned numerical value, and it would get rid of the conundrum of measuring “fun”.

As mandlebaum123 suggested in the previous article (supported by many others), a rating system of “Buy/Rent/Don’t bother” would give a quick rating to those who need one, while forcing other readers to actually pay attention to the accompanying text review. It would also get rid of the intrinsic “comparison” problem of a number system: if Madden 2006 gets an 8.7 and Dead Rising gets an 8.0, does that make the Madden game better, despite the fact that they belong to different genres? If not, why not? How do you explain number ratings when they’re compared to other number ratings?

Numerical comparison also becomes a problem when you consider number scores over several generations. If Mario Bros for the NES gets a 9/10 when it was first released, and Gears of War gets a 9/10 now, does that mean that Gears and Mario contain exactly the same amount of fun? Numerical scores force us to remove ourselves from the review and contextualize them within their time period. Simply getting rid of the numbers and replacing them with something else (or not) would remove this need.

 prices

Of course, that’ll never happen. Not in a million years. People like to assign simple numerical values to things and create gross oversimplifications – especially when you consider how expensive a hobby video gaming is. Most gamers don’t have time to wade through paragraphs of text to discover whether a game is worth their time or not (which will no doubt be shown when this article is not half as popular as the much shorter one that preceded it), and, as such, review scores will most likely stay around for quite some time.

So if we can’t get rid of them, and we can’t instantly overhaul the system, then the only real solution is to slowly but surely change our grading trends. Ideally, reviewers could work within the existing system and just be harder on those games that do things wrong. If a game has a bad camera, or wonky controls, then take off two or three points instead of just one – camera and controls are essential in playing a game, for God’s sakes. If we were all just a little harder on the video games we love, our reviews could be more critical and balanced, and would counteract the massive score inflation we’ve seen recently. If we, as gamers, are more critical toward our video games, then the journalists who have to appeal to us will have to follow suit.

The whole problem would be a hell of a lot easier if we just switched to the aforementioned “Buy/Rent/Don’t bother” scale, but the majority of gaming news organizations (and probably, the majority of gamers) aren’t ready for it.

If you are, though, feel free to bother Summa and ask him to change Destructoid’s grading scale. If it becomes obvious that enough of you don’t want a 10 point rating system, then you’ll be able to change things. Obviously, you’ll only be changing Destructoid, but that’s still more than you'd get if you tried to petition a major game magazine.

So, what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Hit the comments. 


Continue: More Industry Bullshit stories





prev 50 comments
next

96 comments | showing # 51 to 96

awa64's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 17:56
awa64
Hrm. There possibly could be a core problem with the comparison to the mainstream movie and music industries. As mediums go, they're very different. And I think that leads to reviews being approached differently.

Movies and music all have set price schemes. $9 to go see a movie in the theaters, average of $9 to see it at home ($5 for a rental or $20 for ownership). Buck a track, about $10 an album. And for the most part, you're guaranteed something of roughly the same length, give or take a half-hour.

Games are different. A 20-hour game and a 60-hour game cost exactly the same price. Oblivion costs just as much as Gears of War. Waiting and buying a game months or a year after it comes out can halve the price or more where movies and music stay relatively static. And, of course, the core price itself is significantly higher.

Ultimately, due to the price, and the significantly higher amount of money you intend to spend with it, a game becomes a product, while the transient nature and low price of a DVD or a CD means they can be treated as a consumable item. And it's easier to treat a consumable from the artistic perspective than it is to treat a piece of electronics or a kitchen appliance--or, sadly, a video game.

Another difference comes in the form of quality. I've never heard of a CD causing the player to suddenly fail, or for a movie to be released with entire scenes nowhere to be found or the special effects completely undone. But you can release a video game that crashes at certain points, has game-breaking bugs, or is missing AI. Just look at Big Mother Truckers, or any number of games on Newgrounds. THOSE could very well be the 1-5s that are missing from the 10-point scale.

Of course, that's not to say that video games don't have an advantage artistically. Movie critics seem to be a very insular bunch. The Academy Awards only ever give a naked gold guy to movies that seem to fit a very tight mold--always drama, never comedy, always live-action, never animated (except for in the 'best animated picture' category), almost always realistic, rarely sci-fi or fantasy, and almost always introspective and character-based, rarely action-packed and epic. Movie critics have decided what exactly makes a game or a movie good, and are almost completely unwilling to consider anything outside their niche.

Games, as it stands, don't have that problem. Elite Beat Agents is given every bit as much a chance as Gears of War by the video game media. Mario and Zelda are allowed in the same room as Rainbow Six and Splinter Cell. There's room for both Burnout and Gran Turismo--and PGR. And when's the last time you saw something as insane as Sam and Max allowed to thrive and prosper? And, surprisingly, it's the one field where critical and commercial success align, for the most part--sure, there's the occasional Rez or Ico where they don't meet commercial success, or Tony Hawk or Madden where they get panned critically, but Gears manages to sell like wildfire AND get positive reviews.

The problem there, though, is that games don't quite seem to get judged as art. Art needs to be able to not be fun, occasionally, and when a game stops being fun most people stop playing. If I ever feel lost, confused, and unsure of what to do next in a video game, despite having tried everything I can think of, I'll get frustrated and either look at a game guide or quit. What happens when the a game designer WANTS you to feel lost and confused? Or when they want you to fail? Unfortunately, at this point, gamers tend to quit (or try to restart) when that happens. At this point, while it's capable of being art, its conventions work against it being used as such.
mrdandy's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 18:14
mrdandy
You say game scores should use the full spectrum of 1-10, but most people who write and read game scores accept the upper-end philosophy, right or wrong. I don't think anyone who sees a 5/10 game rating will think it's worth buying, because even if by your code that's still "average", there are so many "above average" games to choose from.

Most writers try to know their audience and what they expect. So if their mindset is already fixed to think of 50% as failing, why should everyone change that? Just because you said so? Maybe instead of telling everyone to write the way you say, and reeducate all the readers, maybe you should just read the numbers differently. That would be a lot easier, no? Don't buy any game that doesn't get a 9 or 10. See? Wasn't that easy?

Like many have said before, the real take-away from any game review is the meat of the text. An arbitrary number doesn't take into account what your tastes are, and whether you'd actually like a game or not. I'd suspect many reviewers don't like to assign ratings at all Rogert Ebert himself has said he doesn't really like the "thumb" system, (forced into it by PBS many years ago) and that people should go by the review.

Also, how are schools "promoting mediocrity" by calling 59% an F? Actually, that seems more stringent than the system you are promoting, not less.
Poopface Morty's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 18:19
Poopface Morty
Video games are not art.

There, I said it.
Azrael's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 18:54
Azrael
Poopface Morty:

Not ALL video games are art. There are commercial games, epic games, experimental games, Casual Mini games, and actually there are ART games too.

There I said it.
mattdamauler's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 19:07
mattdamauler
I don't see what it matters. Who cares if the number of video game reviews don't match those of movie reviews. As long as there's pretty much an industry standard it doesn't really matter. gamestats.com reports the industry average as 6.8, and when linking to a review, it gives the site or magazine's average as well, which never differs much from 6.8.

As long as you can accept that an average video game is a 6.8, then it doesn't really matter. 10s are still amazing, and 1s still suck....
Poopface Morty's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 19:07
Poopface Morty
Right, so you really didn't negate what I just said. I didn't say "all games are not art"...I said video games are not art. What's your point?
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 19:39
Cyberxion
I definitely agree with the spirit of this piece, if not with a couple of points here and there that aren't really even worth mentioning.

The industry-standard (or near enough...) 10-point scale just doesn't work. The grade assigned at the end of a review often directly contradicts things said in a review. Even when that's not a factor, people often turn their attention to the review score first, sometimes ignoring the text entirely. In the end, that means that people are making decisions based on a totally arbitrary score rather than taking into account what a given reviewer had to say about a game, which while ultimately not much more important, paints a far better picture of what you're in for should you check a given game out.

I write amaturish reviews for a friends site, and I never have bothered to assign number ratings to any of them. I just give my opinions on a game, touching upon important aspects of a given game, and then leave it at that. I can't wrap my head around the 10-point scale or how it might be useful or relevant and refuse to use it, or any other sort of scoring system for that matter.

I think the most important thing though, is that people have long-since forgotten that reviews are not supposed to be the end-all authority on your purchases, but instead are supposed to serve to help you make educated decisions. If a game doesn't get a certain score, people aren't as inclined to buy it. Alternately, people rush out and buy games just because some rag attached a high score to them. That's the biggest failing of the 10-point system, and really, it's the biggest failing of reviewers and reviews in general.
sirurza's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 20:09
sirurza
I think a large part of video game reviewing comes down to how it's done. If Innovation, Control, Graphics, Story, etc. are supposed to all have equal weight in whether the game is good or not then each category needs to be rated and the final average for a game needs to be given based on those scores.

If it's a controls have problems (Gear's cover button doing everything) and the game has severe lag issues (Host shotgun, etc.) that'll dramatically pull down a perfect 5 or 10 depending on your scale in the Fun category.
iliketuna's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 21:43
iliketuna
such a lot of hot air for something that really doesn't matter.


" deaddays says:
03/14/2007 13:40
What if we all accept that videogames are rated less harshly than other medium and take that into account when assessing our decision to buy. Sounds like the easiest solution to me. "

qft
Lord_Satorious's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 22:00
Lord_Satorious
I said it before and I'll say it again; a review score is useless without the review itself to explain it. Unless your tastes are exactly the same as the review, an 8.0 game to them may not be an 8.0 game to you. This is why a site like Game Rankings is far more useful than any single video game reviewing website.

Furthermore, once a game scores below the the 50 or 60% mark, it's essentially a failing grade. Any score below that is simply a measure of how much the game has failed. So you could have a scoring system of 1-5, but really, it's just 3-5 and anything else is an F. I dislike too few choices like a simple 1-5 (a game is either 60% [3] or 80% [4], there's nothing in the 70% range), I prefer the four star system in half star increments. A simple 1-10 is also acceptable. Any more detailed and the system is overly complex. What's the difference between an 8.6 game and an 8.7 game? Still, the meat of any review is in the review itself, not the final numerical rating.
subnet6's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/14/2007 22:34
subnet6
GREAT WRITEUP! I wholeheartedly agree. I think a 5 point scale is the MAXIMUM that should be used. I would be cool with BUY/RENT/MEH/AVOID.

Again, very well written. All the angles are covered. You have really made a great case for overhauling a broken system.

Bravo.
iamcrazyed's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 00:50
iamcrazyed
We shouldn't be surprised that corporations are holding high influence over video game ratings in large-distro magazines and websites; that's who pays their cheques.

I think the best way to fix the broken rating system is to make a separation between the writer and the sponsors. That will encourage the airing of honest opinion. This is why sites like this are useful; everyday users like us have input, and influence from "The Man" is lower than what it would be in a mag.

AH! Just watch Wayne's World... it explains it all.
MassiveDuck's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 02:20
MassiveDuck
The idea that most games are above average goes against the very idea of what average is.
World Famous's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 03:00
World Famous
It's not going to change. No matter what. Go to the forum to see why.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 03:19
Anthony Burch
You're a real sweetie.
Blazingluke's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 06:16
Blazingluke
Pffft, it isn't that much longer...
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:00
Mxyzptlk
One thing nobody (I think) has mentioned is the curve that often gets applied to games when their system is still new. Games like Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero likely got much higher scores than they should have simply because there wasn't much else "next gen" to compare it to at the time. Another dilemma faced by reviewers is how do they score games when you've got three major platforms competing. Do you base a PS2 title on what's available on GC and Xbox? Or do you set your scores based on just that particular system's library. PC reviewers have it rough because they don't really have generations to use as a cut off point. Can a reviewer really give a fair score to a game if he's hasn't played every other title in the same genre? There's all sorts of problems to consider that ultimately means no review system will ever be perfect or fair.

Both articles were excellent reads, and I apologize if I neglected to mention that the first time around. I just strongly disagree with Rev that lack of major innovation means a game is bad. Alien Hominid is a cartoon version of Metal Slug. Geometry Wars is shiny version of Robotron. And I've had a complete blast playing both of them. From everything I've seen, God of War 2 is a more polished God of War 1. One of the reasons people pick up franchise games is because they loved previous titles. Wind Waker changed things up with a new graphic style and the sailing feature, but it played exactly like Ocarina of Time. A Link to the Past was just a prettier version of the original Legend of Zelda with new items and a mirror world, having gone back to it's roots after the departure of Adventure of Link. A sequel should change up and add a few things, but at it's heart players should still recognize what made them love the series in the first place.
World Famous's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:07
World Famous
It's a common sense thing that there are numbers. Whether anyone likes them or not, almost doesn't matter. No matter what you do, there will always be those ready to criticize it or want something different. Numbers are simply a way to keep things organized and easy to understand.

Frankly, I wouldn't take any review or reviewer seriously if all they said was try or buy. Some people like to have a sense of scale.
Dolbin's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:32
Dolbin
Sigh, this is just like the philosophy class I took in High School. You could argue all day till your blue in the face, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

But, since I'm human I still have to put my two cents in it.I like how games are score. I know its like school grades and that helps my pea size brain understand what the reviewer is trying to say. Though I never consider scores when buying a game. Now, these last two articles you done "to me" seems nothing more then you trying to justify your lack of common sense when reviewing Zelda TP.

What's with not giving gamers credit, their aren't stupid. They know whats worth their money. After, watching videos of the game online, or downloading a demo via live.They know what they like.For instance, even if the next Final Fantasy gets a 11/10 I'm not getting it. Cause, I hate RPG's.

Also when you said "But, as any gamer can tell you, innovation and originality have a hell of a place in determining fun." You know something can be "an innovation" and "original" and still suck? Ever heard of a saying that goes something like, If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Anyway, I find your writings to be a bunch of ramblings. Jumping from one half point, to a theory, to quotes of someone I don't know then to claims of we need a new system.But, then again this is just like philosophy class we can't be wrong because one its our opinions and two we can never prove we're right.

Also, good luck when your rate a game worse then Zelda TP anything higher then a 4/10.
Snaileb 's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:40
Snaileb
UHHH....PWNED?

Anyways I really enjoyed Rev's article but most of what Doblin said is truth except maybe his 3rd paragraph... maily Im agreeing on the Zelda TP score. Good luck!
LieutenantFrost's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:42
LieutenantFrost
The flaws in any rating system are based off the sheer number of variables involved in the game. The next time you're reading a review, ask yourself the following questions:

- Is the reviewer biased for/against this genre?
- How much did the game cost when it came out?
- What console is the game in question based on?
- Were there any similar games released around the same time?
- How long has the reviewer been reviewing games?
- Did the reviewer have a hangover when they wrote it?
- How much is the reviewer getting (or not getting) paid?
- Who the hell knows if the gamers themselves will actually enjoy the game?

I could go on and on, but I think it gets the point across - there is not, and never will be, a "universally acceptable" rating system. Reviews are purely subjective, and I know for a fact that I would rate several games that have poor reviews higher than the scores that they received.

Now, as far as a 1-10 or 1-5 rating system, you're going to end up with the same problems with either. How about instead of being from 1 (absolute shit) to 5 or 10 ("Perfect"), we go from 0 (lower than a 1? FTW) to 5 or 10 ("Must-buy"). There will never be a "perfect game." Every game will have its flaws. That's just the way it goes; if it didn't happen, where would innovation come from? This is the reason I don't play sports games - you can only come up with so many ways to throw a fucking football before I get bored.

</rant>
Dolbin's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:43
Dolbin
Also I forget to say that I respect the words of Summa. He's level headed, even handed, and someone Rev should inspire to be like.
LieutenantFrost's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:44
LieutenantFrost
And for the love of god, get over the fucking TP score, people. I liked the game too, but I'm not bitching about how it got a 4.
Snaileb 's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 09:46
Snaileb
Whaaaaaaat?!

Summa = Loose Cannon!

Rev = Controversial Enthusiast?
ZergyPoo's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 10:05
ZergyPoo
I think there are several fundamental problems with the idea of a 1/10 scale in which 5/10 is "average."

The first problem is defining what 50% or 5/10 actually means. When I see a score of 5/10, it tells me that a game had an equal number of positive and negative elements giving it a score in the middle of the spectrum. But to me, that's not "average." I would never buy a game that had an equal number of positive and negative elements.

A previous comment mentioned a UK magazine in which 50% is "average" and 80-100% is "recommended." This is a prefect example of why setting the average of 50% is meaningless. If 80% is recommended, that means 50% is not-recommended, and makes it a crappy score.

This brings up the second problem; how to define the word "Average." Average, to most people, means compared with other games. If 90% of games are rated at 8/10, than 8/10 is much closer to the average than 5/10 is. "Average" has never meant "equal number of positive vs negative factors." As far as I'm concerned, that's below average.

Just because 5/10 is in the middle, doesn't make it a meaningful average.

I'm not speaking from an "Academic" standpoint either.

80% means they got 80% of the game elements right, and 20% wrong. 50% means they got 50% wrong. If half of what I'm going to see in a game is crappy, and half is good, that game is not worth it. And that's below average, most games do better than that.
PetiePalo's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 10:05
PetiePalo
Well written Rev. I always enjoy your articles.

I'm critical of games myself. Maybe it's because I'm 24 and I've finally done that "growing up," or perhaps it's because my experience with games has become broad enough to warrant that criticism.

While I enjoyed the original God of War, I wouldn't have rated it higher than a 7/7.5. It was a gorgeous game and fun, but nagging bugs, control issues and sometimes level ambiguity made it infuriating at times. In comparison God of War II has elevated that rating up to a 9 in my opinion. A good deal of the previous flaws have been remedied and the "fun" factor is back in full force. (If not more!)

Personally I think reviews for different genres should be tailored to a certain degree of exclusiveness. While I don't forsee a specific sports, RPG or action grading system ever coming to fruition, I do like the idea of separating games by genre and rating them so that they can be compared to others in that same field. For instance...put reviews for NCAA and Madden games in the same sports section. Rate gameplay mechanics that are common to both-say passing, team building, camera controls, and general control.

When you talked about fun, innovation and gameplay in your article I couldn't help but think of a broader rating system where you have other elements thrown in to rate. I like IGN's DVD rating system where they rate the movie itself, the video transfer, the audio and then the special features. They spread it out a bit more and I think it could translate well to games. Why not something like this:

-Gameplay/Innovation
-Graphics
-Sound
-Fun

Perhaps rate each of those on a scale, 1-5, A-F then make your score. I don't think an average of all these scores (like IGN does for games) would benefit because you bring up a huge point in small flaws being blown out of proportion. For instance let's look at Katamari Damacy. It would rate highly in everything but graphics. Then again it's not MEANT to have spectacular graphics. A low score would drag the average down, and for no reason really. It's a spectacular game.

I totally agree that we should be harsher on games but I think a "broad panel" is a better way to go. I wasn't a big fan of the SATs when I had to take them. I took it 3 times and didn't do amazingly (mostly due to the fact I hadn't had pre-calc yet and there an abundance of that material on there), so I ended up taking the ACT test. I scored a perfect on that. The ACT measures aptitude more than achievement. It's a better indicator of the quality of one's education, not just the quantity. Maybe we should rate games more on how "well" they perform in categories rather than if they hit a mark or not.
itemforty's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 10:36
itemforty
I like pointlesswasteoftime's rating system: 1 out of 1 star.
Sarkos's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 10:50
Sarkos
Interesting article, but while I agree with you on many points, I'd have to say you're wrong overall.

The most important thing in any rating system is consistency. If I repeatedly read reviews on my favourite review site, I know what the scores represent.... 6 is bad and 10 is excellent. On another site, 6 may be "slightly above average" while 10 is perfect. It doesn't matter - as long as they are consistent, I will always understand the score.

However, if destructoid uses the standard 6-10 scale, and you scored a below-average game at 4, then you fucked up, because their consistent rating scale means that 4 is bloody awful.
roleypolinde's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 12:44
roleypolinde
Buy/Rent/Forget it

I love it, it begs the reader to inquire why it's only worth renting or buying.
pkhilson's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 14:43
pkhilson
I used to love Greg Kasavin's reviews on Gamespot. I usually ignored the score and read the entire 2-4 pages of text. Told me all I needed to know about a game, so I could tell if I would like it or not.
Namelessted's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 15:36
Namelessted
The more i think about the idea of a monetary scale of how much the game should cost, i really like it. it should be a $0-60 scale. as $60 is the cost of the majority of video games (minus stuff like Guitar Hero becuse it comes with a controller). I really think we should do moneys.
KyleGamgee's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 18:08
KyleGamgee
While I like the 5 stars rating system, my reason why will make most of you stop reading what I'm writing: Adam Sessler and Morgan Webb. When they give a game 5 stars, I really pay attention. A 5 star rating from them is rare. Mostly I see ratings of 2 and 3 stars on their show, when I catch it. If a game gets 4 out of 5 stars, I know its a GOOD game.

Still, I decide for myself.

What we need to do is accept responsibility for our decisions. No one here buys a game based on score, fine. You need to find a reviewer who has your taste. Find opinion you share, and listen to them. I already know not to see Norbit. Also, my taste in Movies isn't so refined that I like everything that gets a "Thumbs Up" for Roeper. I go to movies because I'm a fan and I like to have fun. I found someone who will discuss their movie views publicly who's tastes align with my own. Yes, its Kevin Smith. Sue me.

Far better than taking the average of all reviews to determine if something is good, just take recommendations from sources you trust. and if your favorite game evar isn't well liked by the populous, boo freakin' hoo.

I trust you all here at Destructiod. I just beat Beyond Good and Evil. I bought it for $7 based on the Bargain Bin Laden article, and everyone else here who's mantioned it has praised it with the heat of a thousand suns.

Now that I have played BG&E, and loved it (plus the fact that I <3 the recent Prince of Persia series) I will now pay more attention to what Ubisoft puts out there. They won't all be gems, but I get to decide that for myself.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 18:25
Anthony Burch
"Also I forget to say that I respect the words of Summa. He's level headed, even handed, and someone Rev should inspire to be like."

And with those two sentences, you've lost the right to speak to me.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 18:31
Anthony Burch
Sarkos:
I agree that consistency is important, but why does the scale have to be consistently wrong? 6 meaning "bad" makes no sense in the context of a 1-10 scale, and essentially makes 1-5 meaningless numbers used only for hyperbolic rants of hatred about a particular game.

As far as my review of Zelda being inconsistent with Destructoid's review scale...Twilight Princess was the first video game we EVER reviewed. How does one "fuck up" and manage to make a scale inconsistent before it's even managed to prove itself?
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 20:16
Cyberxion
Because there are going to be games worse than Zelda that will likely rate higher overall, thus implying that Zelda, an accomplished game if not a bit reliant on old standbys, is worse than [insert game title here]. At least that's what I think he's implying, at any rate. We'll see if his argument is for naught if/when you personally get around to reviewing another game.
Namelessted's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 20:50
Namelessted
Summa, you are being stubborn as fuck. seriously.

"Whether anyone likes them or not, almost doesn't matter"

are you fucking retarded? seriously, it absolutely matters what people want. If people don't want 1-10 then keeping a 1-10 scores system is absolutely retarded. Destructoid thrives on community, or did you forget that. Seriously, it isn't always what you think is best Summa.

Destructoid is better than just a 1-10 scale. we can still have a bottom line and numbers but it can be unique and different at the same time. I personally think the monetary value of $0-$60 sounds really neat and is worth considering, at the very least. Being stubborn and saying that the review system will never change is extremely irresponsible of you.
deathbunny's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/15/2007 20:57
deathbunny
trust. folks throw that term around like it means somehting, really means something.

but do they, DO you?

knowledge + information + insight + reasoning + logick + consumer reports + peer power + relevant, past experience. feel free to add-on stuff if we missed some stuff out.

btw, all your comments and arguements are belong to bus.
Hiver's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/16/2007 01:18
Hiver
"But better yet, just get rid of scores altogether. Hundreds of gamers have suggested it." ... "It would put a greater pressure on the reviewer to actually describe what the game feels like instead of just falling back on a randomly assigned numerical value."

You are one of hundreds of mystical creatures that inhabit the land. Your goal is retrieve mighty animal spirits and free the world from a tyrannical queen. With each spirit you obtain you gain the ability to use their powers; transform into an armadillo and plow your enemies over or become a dragon and turn them into smoldering ash. Even without your animal spirits the single touch of a button sends you flying through the world at an incredible speed. Your wits and reflexes will constantly be put to the test.

~a review of Kameo.
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/16/2007 17:52
Cyberxion
Point well made, but I'd guess that's why it's a good idea to read more than one review.
debuff85's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/16/2007 18:09
debuff85
I've read d'toid articles linked on digg, but I joined the website specifically so I could comment on this article.

I agree with just about everything in this article. But my main reason for posting, is that I want to point out that there is one organization that has vowed to make full use of their ten-point scale: Games For Windows: The Official Magazine - formerly Computer Gaming World. They used every number in their scale. For a while (as CGW), they didn't publish numbers at all, but they returned after the moniker change.

I just thought GFW should get some props for avoiding what's so prominent in most of the rest of the review industry.
Vetes's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/17/2007 09:55
Vetes
Very interesting set of articles I must say first.

I have never thought much about comparing games from different genres with the same score. I liked how Judgment Day on G4 would always have a face off between two very similar games. That made deciding what games were better a lot easier. This is done a lot of times in gaming mags when a new sports season starts and all the games are previewed (and sometimes reviewed, but not as often) together so you get a feel of what each game is trying to accomplish.

Demos becoming more available for games is going to help out consumers a lot with deciding on what games to buy.
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/18/2007 10:26
Cyberxion
As far as the monetary rating scale idea goes, it's just another form of what Rev was speaking out against in his articles. Whether your number is on a scale of one to ten, or one dollar to sixty, it's still a number used to justify a review, and we've all pretty-much agreed that numbered ratings are worthless.

Then there's the whole thing about making the scores relevant by taking account a game's retail cost, which will cause an apparent discrepancy in scores unless that's mentioned somewhere in either the review, or the value rating at the end of a given review. Being that game costs can vary, it's not really worth it, even if it weren't just another form of numbered review scores.

I agree with Vetes. Now more than ever, developers have the option to hit us up with demos, and they ought to. What better way to get gamers interested in your games than to give them a free taste? And I'm not talking about demos that you get when you pre-order a game. If I'm already buying say, God of War 2, then I don't need a demo. I've already made up my mind by then.
No, online distribution is where it's at. It's already happening with the 360, may already be happening with the PS3, and should be happening with the Wii as well, and they should do it at every opportunity with each upcoming game, so that gamers can start deciding for themselves what they want to buy, and videogame reviews can take their place amongst movie reviews as something to read to sate one's curiosity rather than to make one's decisions for you.
TheRob91's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/18/2007 17:37
TheRob91
Hooray for me being quoted, I feel like a real Dtoid member now(enough tooting my own horn). As for a real post -

I wonder if it would help to have people only review a select few(or even one) gaming genre, that way someone that is much more experienced in that department will grade the game. I cant help but think that a lot of people who(sorry for going back to the Zelda:TP grade, but it basically started this whole thing) got a Wii because it was cheap and this was the game they HAD to get since there was basically nothing else, and maybe they thought it was the best game ever, but never really played Zelda or a lot of adventure-like games before.

Also, why would we change the rating system of Dtoid? The problem(as this article and the first part state) is not that the scale itself is broken, a 1-10 scale could work fine, but that the grades are not given correctly. What needs to be changed is merely the way the reviewers give out scores, not the actual numbers used. If we changed to any other scale the problem would not be solved, as people would give games that are bout average a 3 or 4 and a decently above average game might sneak to being regarded as a 5, or maybe a lot of the "7.8-8.8" games would still be a buy, since buy/rent/don't bother is essentially a 3 point scale, I would imagine a lot of lower games would get buy it stage needlessly. Almost any scale can be used if used correctly, and that includes the 10-point one.
TheRob91's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/18/2007 17:47
TheRob91
sorry for the double here, not that it matters since it seems like no one reads these(or at least posts on them) after 2-3 days. I just realized that switching to a new system might make it easier to switch to a correct mindset in how to rate the games, so I guess it could help a little. Just forgot to add that to my earlier post, but I still think that keeping the 10 point would be fine, as switching to another scale would basically be ignoring the problem. I would compare changing game scales to this -

You have a house and the inside walls are all a dark orange-like color. No one likes this color, and so you decide to change it. Someone suggests "Dude, super bright Lime Green is NOTHING like dark orange, lets paint it super bright lime green", and you reply "Holy crap, you're right, lime green isn't orange, lets do it!". While superficially the problem is solved (no more orange) the REAL problem (a bad color on your walls) is still present, and you have just spent time(and money in the example) to basically do nothing to help the real problem.

problem- Too many games get high ratings the way people use the current 1-10 scale.

superficial solution- lets change to a 100, 5, 32, or any other type of scale.

new problem- Too many games get high ratings the way people use the new X scale.
lostalaska's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/30/2007 18:42
lostalaska
Great article I just read them both back to back as well as going back and checking out your Zelda:TP review.

If I had seen your review before "trying" to play the game I would have thought you were nuts, but about two weeks ago my roommate bought a Wii and of course picked up Zelda with it. He played the crap out of it until he finally beat it, then he wouldn't shut up about how I owed it to myself to play this game. So after hearing this for nearly a week I broke down and tried out Zelda. It was then that something went horribly wrong.

Unlike every other console Zelda I've ever played I was having a hard time getting into it. I'd play it for an hour or so and just be done with it for the day. This went on for about a week until I just quit playing it. I couldn't put my finger on the exact problem, but I think you pretty much nailed it in your review. It's not that its a horrible game, it just feels like a been there done that type of game.

I'm also bummed out about how the fighting system worked with the motion controllers. I was hoping for more interactivity and depth to it then just reach forward to jab or twitch uncontrollably to do your main attack, or swinging the nun chuck for your circle (jerk) attack.

For my own personal rating system I'd have given it a "meh" rating...
Variable Gear's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/01/2007 15:26
Variable Gear
I have a question, Rev.:

Will Destructoid reviews state the circumstances of the review in special cases? Like, if Valve flies you out to Washington and locks you in a room for a week so that you can play Portal 2, Half-Life Episode 3, and Team Fortress 3 will those circumstances be noted? Or do you think that this is a non-issue that does not not to be addressed?
prev 50 comments next

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

Comments policy

Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?

Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!

 
New on Destructoid.TV play all videos

Loading
Loading Destructoid Videos


    Win this!
    Dive in! meetup+play for a chance to win a PC

    Dtoid Twitter    Got news?   tips@destructoid.com

    Reviews & Previews
    Assassin's Creed 2 review
    Crossfire Remote Pistol review
    Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles review
    Left 4 Dead 2 review
    Call of Duty: Modern Warfare Reflex review
    more reviews
    Driver
    Avatar
    GT Racing Motor Academy
    Bad Company 2 beta dishes out meaningful experiences
    Legend of Zelda Spirit Tracks
    more previews


    - The Dtoid Army is 51121 strong -

    Showing Cblogs with 3+ faps   show all

    Call for entries: do the wrong thing

    New to Dtoid? Read the survival guide




     Originals
    Joseph Leray: Revisited: Gears of War 2, Pinocchio, and masculinity





















    More Destructoid Originals




     Popular now more






















    Team Destructoid   tips@destructoid.com
    Nick Chester
    Editor-in-Chief
    Niero
    Founder, publisher
    Jim Sterling
    Reviews Editor
    Hamza Aziz
    Community Manager
    Dale North
    News Editor
    Rey Gutierrez
    Video editor & director
    Anthony Burch
    Features Editor
    Colette Bennett
    Tom Fronczak Brad Nicholson
    Ashley Davis Ben Perlee
    Conrad
    Zimmerman
    Chad Concelmo
    Jonathan Holmes Jonathan Ross
    Brad Rice Jordan Devore
    Will Maddock Matthew Razak
    Dyson Joseph Leray
    Topher Cantler Samit Sarkar
         
      Dexter
    Adam Dork
    Daniel Lingen
    Hollie Bennett
    Joe Burling
    Mikey
    Stella Wong

    Josh Tolentino




     

     
      get involved

    register or login
    post a blog
    post a forum
    enter a contest
    contribute a news tip
    suggest a feature
    be a guest editor
    support

    new member's guide
    login assistance
    tech support
    report abuse
    email our editors
    read our dev blog
    nuclear crisis?
    keep in touch

    RSS feed
    Twitter
    Facebook
    Myspace
    Flickr
    Game nights
    Meetup+play online
    seriously

    about Destructoid
    advertising
    terms of use
    privacy policy
    jobs at MM
    buy our crap
    our network

    Tomopop
    Japanator
    Despingation?




    Destructoid is an independently-run publication forged by our love of video games and the gaming community's need of accountable enthusiast press
    living the dream since March 16, 2006