Since the advent of cuneiform and the ability to poke things with sticks, expressive media have been used as a way to propagate ideas, messages, beliefs, and propaganda. The latest and most unnecessarily fussed-over is a game developed by Hezbollah called Special Force 2. The game is a run of the mill FPS/ army sim and seems wholly unremarkable except that the target happens to be one of the United States' closest allies -- Israel.
If you watch the embedded MSN report on its release, you'll find that the newscasters seem to find the notion abhorrent, or at least in bad taste, even if they don't explicitly say so. Before launching into a fit of apoplectic rage, ponder a few questions with me, after the jump.
What makes Special Force 2 tasteless, as opposed to the slew of army- and combat-based FPS that saturate the market?
Is it the fact that it depicts a present-day war, as opposed to World War I or II? See Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare for a rebuttal.
Is it because genocide falls very clearly at the "horrible" end of the morality spectrum? Killing Nazis is socially acceptable because genocide is bad; however, the moral highroad in the Gaza Strip (i.e. Hezbollah vs. Israel) is hard to find> Hezbollah thinks themselves to be morally righteous in their struggle against Israel, and who are MSN newscasters to say differently? Don't get me wrong: I'm not throwing my internet fame behind Hezbollah, but I'm not going to overlook the fact that Israel has its fair share of skeletons in its collective closet. There is definitely some moral gray area here. Rather, nobody is right.
Maybe because Special Force 2 was expressly created with propaganda in mind, we should find it inherently bad. Video games are simply the next step in the evolution of media, and as such, are subject to the same pitfalls as art, sculpture, radio, film, and TV; that is to say, it can be easily used as propaganda. Our very own Army is guilty of using our favorite pass time to its own devices as well, not to mention that they did it first.
So let's recap: Ubisoft is developing a present-day war game, there is no clearly delineated "right" or "wrong" on the Gaza Strip, and our own government has used video games as propaganda. It seems that our newscasters' (and, in all probability, collective America's) indignation is left with very little to stand on, apart from the fact that an enemy of Isreal is an enemy of ours.
But, is that really enough to discredit the game, call it "controversial", act haughty and smug, and imply that Lebanese Muslims are somehow inherently evil? Again, I re-iterate, I'm not exactly stoked that Special Force 2 exists, but I will try to take the time to understand where it comes from. To boot, I wasn't exactly happy when my own government got into the digital propaganda game. It's not so much that Hezbollah are a shining beacon in the video game world, we should just remember that maybe our own, big budget blockbusters aren't that different.
Joseph Leray is a founding Destructoid editor and has better hair than you. He speaks French and needs to send us his updated bio in English, preferably.
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Of course the newscasters find the idea abhorrent: Jews run the media after all, as well as controlling the world's supply of gold. In their spare time they poison wells.
For a second there I thought you said "Lesbian Muslims", and realized there's a fetish the internet needs to capitalize more on. Hot girl-in-burqa on girl-in-burqa action.
It's worth noting that most war games favor the U.S. unconditionally. Hell there was even a number of Vietnam war games that came out where you play the role of an invading U.S. soldier. I found that rather tasteless but no one ever said boo about that. I suppose if you are going to object to Special Forces 2 then you could/should object to a lot of other war games.
This was a very "elaborate" report on an "elaborate" subject to and is in an "elaborate" scheme to bring me "elaborate" information.
Seriously though, you dont say "elaborate" twice in the same paragraph, it sounds retarded. (reffering to the news reporter holding up the copy of the game)
Anyway ya your right. People shouldent be makeing such a big deal out of this. Videogames are like art, they will express opinions, ideas, and vaules of the people who create them. They dont affect what people do IRL and therefore is irrelavant in every sence of the word "irrelavant".
Not because I wholly agree with Israel and nor do I have a problem with Hezbollah making a game simulating the killing of Israelis.
My problem comes from depicting an actual battle that took place not too long ago and the propaganda aspect.
If America's Army created a scenario of the Fallujah battle I would be equally as upset.
It's just not right creating a game where the virtual shoes you are filling forces you to take part in the killing of soldiers who's families of the actual soldiers of the depicted battle are still mourning.
I'm not going to get into the "right or wrong" aspect of this, I'm just going to stick with the title question of whether it is "controversial" or not. Honestly, I don't think it is going to be played by enough people ever to be considered "controversial". For example, there's that version of Mickey Mouse in Iran that tells the children over there to kill the infidels, but we never talk about it being controversial because we never see it, and therefore don't contemplate it.
Ever played the insurgency mod for HL2? Rev Anthony posted a review of it a few weeks ago. It's an extremely realistic and accurate simulation of battles in Iraq, Coalition vs. Insurgent. I would imagine Iraqi's and the families of dead soldiers would find that just as offensive. Still, it's a fun game, and that makes up for all the moral problems. Right?
Heh, no way that footage is ingame. The trailer looks so much worse. There was another game like this a year ago, where you had to kill Americans and the 'zionist invaders' with some militant Islamic singing in the background. You had Wolf3D-like portraits of Dubya as a Nazi on the walls, and a gas-chamber lever with an Israeli flag on it and everything. It was a bit hateful and not much fun to play(buggy as hell to boot), but also not very shocking. It was just ridiculous, and as such it was laughable.
I was actually more offended by America's Army, since it shows the use of so many resources for something that so obviously a propagandist digital media-tool. It shows a high level of commitment towards the act of persuasion, while being sponsored by the military force of a nation.
As gamers we play American, European and Asian games. So why not Middle-Eastern or African? If there was a Taleban IED game, and it was fun, I'd play it. Once you start to draw lines at what you should be able play just because of a political climate, then you are walking a narrow line.
If I as Eurotrash can play an American soldier killing arab soldiers, why should it matter if it's the other way around? If you belief that playing this will make you hate Israeli's, or even all jews, then that says more about yourself than the game. And if it does work that way, well let's say violence in viogames will be pretty much a given from that point on.
It doesn't really say much to call something "contoversial". Virtually any issue can and will be controversial to those who have a passionate viewpoint on it, be it world politics, the lunch menu at Denny's, or whether or not your mom is a dirty, dirty whore (which, btw, she is). People will really be pissed off either way, so I can't say there is a problem with Hezbollah or any other group making whatever game they want.
That being said, I doubt I would ever play a game like this, precisely because it is told from a certain point of view. While there are moral shades of gray in everything, it's also pretty apparent that Hezbollah is responsible for the lion's share of douchebaggery in the conflict. There's a big difference between "Woops, I dropped a bomb on your house trying to hit those militants, my bad" (Israel) and "LOL, I blew up yur cafe!" (Hezbollah).
Anyway, the point is, people are going to like and play what they connect with on some level, and that's cool. If you wanna play it or not, go for it. Just don't be upset if someone else doesn't dig what you dig.
I don't really agree with the State of Israel. But its interesting to see the Hezbollah's take on things. Nothing wrong with fighting as Hezbollah in a video game. Everyone should have the right. For every other "good nation" its OK to depict battles against North Koreans and Middle Eastern countries.
If they are depicting battles between Hezbollah and Israel, it would mostly be about Israel killing thousands of innocent civilians, even the bombing of a Lebanon school for children, killing hundreds, using cluster bombs that land on the ground and not detonate, causing hundreds of deaths well after the conflict. Israel hate everybody thats around their wall and don't hesitate to destroy and entire village if some asshole fires a rocket in their general direction and lands in an empty plot of land.
It doesn't matter if Israelis are mostly Jewish. Its not anti-semitic to not agree with what Israel has been doing.
I don't believe Israel is a godly country that has the right to bomb whoever they want to just because they're Jewish.
America's army was not in any way propaganda, it was merely a recruitment tool, sure it might have made the army seem a little different than it actually is, but it was designed to be a game, not a simulation. Now I don't know if "super jew-killer 64" here lets you play as an isreali soldier, but I'm going to assume it doesn't, the fact that it encourages murdering soldiers by a terrorist group, while not allowing you to be the other side, to me makes it seem like propaganda. Now america's army does a similar thing, where you are always the army no matter what side you are on, and the other team is always guy with AKs in balaclavas, but it they could be a legitimate enemy military, the main point is, america's army is not politicized, it portrays the enemy as just guys who wear different uniforms and have different equipment, it doesn't demonize them as crazy jihadists. America's army like most FPS's is morally and politically neutral, special force 2 is a game created by a group that wants a 2nd holocaust, and denies the 1st one. But it is just media, and can't do any real harm, anyone who would want it, and belive it's message would already hate isreal and jews anyway, any reasonable, intelligent person is just going to think "OK it's a game where I shoot guys." Also, we all know this game has to be a piece of shit anyway, it probably makes america's army look like game of the year.
Woah, woah, woah. You can't be serious. You're wondering why a game made by terrorists would be offensive? They indiscriminately fire rockets at civilians, WHILE hiding amongst the civilians they claim to be protecting and using them as human shields. These guys are scumbags.
As for moral "grey areas," the term you were really looking for is "moral equivalency." Terrorists use it all the time to justify their actions. Flying planes into buildings? Well, the USA blows up innocent people, too! Sending suicide bombers to blow up a packed bus? Israel blows up innocent people, too! Nazis gassing helpless Jews to death? The Allies blow up innocent people, too!
...see how that works? Every time you hear an argument like that, you need to realize that you are being manipulated by your emotions. What's important and necessary is to think for yourself, look at the facts critically, and avoid emotional knee-jerk responses.
People need to remember, IT IS A GAME, who cares what a millitant group puts into a videogame that looks like it'd run on my N64 theres plenty of games that immitate the desert storm conflict, and noone got too upset, because propaganda or not, its really just a stupid game. In fact if the graphics were better i'd probably want to play it.
It's articles like this that make me really proud to be a reader of Destructoid. Orcist and savagesaladin make some excellent points. I'm Jewish myself, and I find it's really hard to be critical of Israel's policies without being accused of being Anti-Semitic or a terrorist sympathizer. Kudos to both of you for your brave and thoughtful analysis.
More like not wanting to pick a side because you're an editor.
It's easy for me to pick a side because I am an Amercian. But I do understand where Hez is coming from. I completely understand that the majority from that side feels like they are fighting an injustice, but I also understand they are not given all the information.
Our media may be misleading but most of us do have access to alternative media. Most from the other side do not. They get their news filtered and prioritized based on the administrations beliefs.
Jim Sterling is a genius, but not for his Israel/Arab commentary. It's a common Western attitude to dismiss the problems over there as a backwards Oriental misadventure, while ignoring the role British and American colonialism plays. I mean what about the Balfour Declaration, or the promises of the land to the French as well? Westerners have just as large a responsibility for what's happening over there as the people caught in the middle. It's everyone's problem.
"Woooo hold on, did you say Hezbollah is a TERRORIST group? Wow you must watch Faux News all day long XD."
They are a non government group that uses violence and fear to achieve a political objective. They are the very definition of a terrorist group. Many governments list them as a terrorist group, at least the militant section. They have committed suicide bombings in the past, and their propaganda wing airs shows designed to encourage suicide bombings.
so you're saying that a militant group that fights back against an army that's attacking their country, killing almost exclusively the soldiers of that army, is a terrorist group. at the same time, you don't see an entire army that exclusively kills thousands of civilians (be it lebanese or palestinian) every year, destroys their agricultural system (by destroying all the major dams in lebanon), cluster bombs and completely destroys the capital of lebanon, and even air-strikes the UN headquarters in southern lebanon (killing 60 people on a bus that were leaving the headquarters at that time) are not terrorists... just because they are an "official government sponsored organization?" i don't get this world.
and that reporter in the video is a fucking idiot. the reason hezbollah is gaining so much popularity and the reason like 95% of the population there want to overthrow Seniora (haha, funny name for a male president :P) is because the lebanese government didn't do a single fucking thing when the IDF (israeli defense force) invaded their country. they didn't send a single soldier or army vehicle to defend the villages in southern lebanon that were later surrounded and massacred. the only group that actually did anything about it was hezbollah. also the current presidency in lebanon has been corrupt for quite a while... this has nothing to do with the current leadership being allies with america... if you ever go to beirut you'll see that the entire city is westernized. they have clubs and bars all over the place, which is much more than you can say for any other middle eastern nation (minus israel... there everybody's either a piece of shit or a slut, and don't argue with me cause i've lived there for quite a while. the people with brains don't go out because they can't stand the vast majority of the israeli population... and i agree with them. it's surprising that israel still stands today with the people that compose it's population.)
just to put the protests into perspective... the first couple of days after the war, around 2 or 3 million people (i can't remember which one of the two it is... i'm pretty sure it's 3 million but it might be 2) went to beirut and protested around the main government building there where the president resides. in any country that is an insane amount of people. lebanon has a population of just under 4 million. so basically between 50-75% of the people in lebanon had a mass rally against the government... anyway, this doesn't have too much to do with the game itself anymore so i'll end my rant right now.
Wow...Sami, uh..wow to think while I was busy registering I'd have the carpet swept from under me and used to bludgeon the opposition...Much better than what I was going to post.
anyway, it looks more pro-islam than anti-semitic, it's just that the MO for both is largely the same in that part of the world so it winds up looking like a pair of boulders rolling down the hill gathering moss, until they smash into each other and create one single, huge ass rocky log of hate. To avoid smashing, either block movement of one completely, but risk the other hitting you anyway, or chip away at both and lose'em together.
Now as to the game itself, they should really consider converting it to pure squaddie instead so as to minimize civvie casualties through educational gameplay.
"America's army was not in any way propaganda, it was merely a recruitment tool, sure it might have made the army seem a little different than it actually is, but it was designed to be a game, not a simulation."
what the fuck do you think propoganda is?!?!? you just defined it you idiot!
"ow I don't know if "super jew-killer 64" here lets you play as an isreali soldier, but I'm going to assume it doesn't, the fact that it encourages murdering soldiers by a terrorist group, while not allowing you to be the other side, to me makes it seem like propaganda. Now america's army does a similar thing..."
it does the same exact fucking thing, except it's higher quality making it even better (quality-wise, not cause-wise) propoganda. and the fact that it's free makes it even more so (at least the older PC version).
"...the main point is, america's army is not politicized, it portrays the enemy as just guys who wear different uniforms and have different equipment, it doesn't demonize them as crazy jihadists. America's army like most FPS's is morally and politically neutral..."
uuuh... just shut the fuck up and don't ever speak again.
Haha, I, of all people, got accused of not wanting to pick sides?
You want a side? If I had to choose, I'd say Israel. I'm really not a fan of Islam as a religion, especially the insane version over in the middle eastern territories. But frankly, I'm not researched enough to give my deep thoughts on the conflict, and from what I see, they're neither side much better than the other, so screw 'em. Frankly, the middle east is so fucking dangerous, that if their conflicts ended up blowing the whole region the fuck up, it might be for the best.
Frankly though, the reason I don't pick sides is because I don't care anymore. They say apathy is terrible, but fuck it. That region is a shithole and they're never going to stop fighting over land that's fucking worthless. Wake me up when they've obliterated each other, then we have some news.
in socom you can be terrorists, in gta you can walk around killing cops, and in most war games you can play semi-up-to-date conflict based missions.
there should be a game where you can be any country/ideology and combat with any other. someone commission that.
also, if someone plays the game, let us know how it is. the trailer made it look terrible, but if some homebrew devs can get their hands on it lets mod it and put in mxyzptlk's battle lesbians. maybe i missed it, but what system is this for?
I spent the past three years of my life living in Lebanon... I am also completely against Hezbollah for a number of reasons. But the fact that this game is being criticized is quite clearly a double standard. Some very good reasons for that have been listed by others above, so I won't get into them.
I'll just say, I'm an Arab, I don't like Hezbollah... but this type of reporting is pure hypocrisy unless it is combined with an insightful view of how "Western" society considers the games they produce to be acceptable, regardless of the fact that they primarily present similar objective sets, but based on an alternate (and seemingly more acceptable) perspective.
The reporting is obviously biased without an objective presentation/analysis of a counter viewpoint.
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For a second there I thought you said "Lesbian Muslims", and realized there's a fetish the internet needs to capitalize more on. Hot girl-in-burqa on girl-in-burqa action.
Seriously though, you dont say "elaborate" twice in the same paragraph, it sounds retarded. (reffering to the news reporter holding up the copy of the game)
Anyway ya your right. People shouldent be makeing such a big deal out of this. Videogames are like art, they will express opinions, ideas, and vaules of the people who create them. They dont affect what people do IRL and therefore is irrelavant in every sence of the word "irrelavant".
Not because I wholly agree with Israel and nor do I have a problem with Hezbollah making a game simulating the killing of Israelis.
My problem comes from depicting an actual battle that took place not too long ago and the propaganda aspect.
If America's Army created a scenario of the Fallujah battle I would be equally as upset.
It's just not right creating a game where the virtual shoes you are filling forces you to take part in the killing of soldiers who's families of the actual soldiers of the depicted battle are still mourning.
It's wrong. Period.
FIX IT
I was actually more offended by America's Army, since it shows the use of so many resources for something that so obviously a propagandist digital media-tool. It shows a high level of commitment towards the act of persuasion, while being sponsored by the military force of a nation.
As gamers we play American, European and Asian games. So why not Middle-Eastern or African? If there was a Taleban IED game, and it was fun, I'd play it. Once you start to draw lines at what you should be able play just because of a political climate, then you are walking a narrow line.
If I as Eurotrash can play an American soldier killing arab soldiers, why should it matter if it's the other way around? If you belief that playing this will make you hate Israeli's, or even all jews, then that says more about yourself than the game. And if it does work that way, well let's say violence in viogames will be pretty much a given from that point on.
Oh yeah, politics and religion and blah blah blah.
LOL!!!
That being said, I doubt I would ever play a game like this, precisely because it is told from a certain point of view. While there are moral shades of gray in everything, it's also pretty apparent that Hezbollah is responsible for the lion's share of douchebaggery in the conflict. There's a big difference between "Woops, I dropped a bomb on your house trying to hit those militants, my bad" (Israel) and "LOL, I blew up yur cafe!" (Hezbollah).
Anyway, the point is, people are going to like and play what they connect with on some level, and that's cool. If you wanna play it or not, go for it. Just don't be upset if someone else doesn't dig what you dig.
So today they're spinning the game to paint the AXIS OF EVIL! picture.
What's new? Same picture, different colors.
If they are depicting battles between Hezbollah and Israel, it would mostly be about Israel killing thousands of innocent civilians, even the bombing of a Lebanon school for children, killing hundreds, using cluster bombs that land on the ground and not detonate, causing hundreds of deaths well after the conflict. Israel hate everybody thats around their wall and don't hesitate to destroy and entire village if some asshole fires a rocket in their general direction and lands in an empty plot of land.
It doesn't matter if Israelis are mostly Jewish. Its not anti-semitic to not agree with what Israel has been doing.
I don't believe Israel is a godly country that has the right to bomb whoever they want to just because they're Jewish.
Woooo hold on, did you say Hezbollah is a TERRORIST group? Wow you must watch Faux News all day long XD.
That's my take on the conflicts over there.
As for moral "grey areas," the term you were really looking for is "moral equivalency." Terrorists use it all the time to justify their actions. Flying planes into buildings? Well, the USA blows up innocent people, too! Sending suicide bombers to blow up a packed bus? Israel blows up innocent people, too! Nazis gassing helpless Jews to death? The Allies blow up innocent people, too!
...see how that works? Every time you hear an argument like that, you need to realize that you are being manipulated by your emotions. What's important and necessary is to think for yourself, look at the facts critically, and avoid emotional knee-jerk responses.
That's my take on the conflicts over there."
As always, Jim Sterling is a fucking genious.
That's my take on the conflicts over there."
As always, Jim Sterling is a fucking genious.[/i]
Genius? Not so much.
More like not wanting to pick a side because you're an editor.
It's easy for me to pick a side because I am an Amercian. But I do understand where Hez is coming from. I completely understand that the majority from that side feels like they are fighting an injustice, but I also understand they are not given all the information.
Our media may be misleading but most of us do have access to alternative media. Most from the other side do not. They get their news filtered and prioritized based on the administrations beliefs.
Nothing but love for you though, Sterling.
They are a non government group that uses violence and fear to achieve a political objective. They are the very definition of a terrorist group. Many governments list them as a terrorist group, at least the militant section. They have committed suicide bombings in the past, and their propaganda wing airs shows designed to encourage suicide bombings.
so you're saying that a militant group that fights back against an army that's attacking their country, killing almost exclusively the soldiers of that army, is a terrorist group. at the same time, you don't see an entire army that exclusively kills thousands of civilians (be it lebanese or palestinian) every year, destroys their agricultural system (by destroying all the major dams in lebanon), cluster bombs and completely destroys the capital of lebanon, and even air-strikes the UN headquarters in southern lebanon (killing 60 people on a bus that were leaving the headquarters at that time) are not terrorists... just because they are an "official government sponsored organization?" i don't get this world.
and that reporter in the video is a fucking idiot. the reason hezbollah is gaining so much popularity and the reason like 95% of the population there want to overthrow Seniora (haha, funny name for a male president :P) is because the lebanese government didn't do a single fucking thing when the IDF (israeli defense force) invaded their country. they didn't send a single soldier or army vehicle to defend the villages in southern lebanon that were later surrounded and massacred. the only group that actually did anything about it was hezbollah. also the current presidency in lebanon has been corrupt for quite a while... this has nothing to do with the current leadership being allies with america... if you ever go to beirut you'll see that the entire city is westernized. they have clubs and bars all over the place, which is much more than you can say for any other middle eastern nation (minus israel... there everybody's either a piece of shit or a slut, and don't argue with me cause i've lived there for quite a while. the people with brains don't go out because they can't stand the vast majority of the israeli population... and i agree with them. it's surprising that israel still stands today with the people that compose it's population.)
just to put the protests into perspective... the first couple of days after the war, around 2 or 3 million people (i can't remember which one of the two it is... i'm pretty sure it's 3 million but it might be 2) went to beirut and protested around the main government building there where the president resides. in any country that is an insane amount of people. lebanon has a population of just under 4 million. so basically between 50-75% of the people in lebanon had a mass rally against the government... anyway, this doesn't have too much to do with the game itself anymore so i'll end my rant right now.
anyway, it looks more pro-islam than anti-semitic, it's just that the MO for both is largely the same in that part of the world so it winds up looking like a pair of boulders rolling down the hill gathering moss, until they smash into each other and create one single, huge ass rocky log of hate. To avoid smashing, either block movement of one completely, but risk the other hitting you anyway, or chip away at both and lose'em together.
Now as to the game itself, they should really consider converting it to pure squaddie instead so as to minimize civvie casualties through educational gameplay.
you are especially an idiot.
"America's army was not in any way propaganda, it was merely a recruitment tool, sure it might have made the army seem a little different than it actually is, but it was designed to be a game, not a simulation."
what the fuck do you think propoganda is?!?!? you just defined it you idiot!
"ow I don't know if "super jew-killer 64" here lets you play as an isreali soldier, but I'm going to assume it doesn't, the fact that it encourages murdering soldiers by a terrorist group, while not allowing you to be the other side, to me makes it seem like propaganda. Now america's army does a similar thing..."
it does the same exact fucking thing, except it's higher quality making it even better (quality-wise, not cause-wise) propoganda. and the fact that it's free makes it even more so (at least the older PC version).
"...the main point is, america's army is not politicized, it portrays the enemy as just guys who wear different uniforms and have different equipment, it doesn't demonize them as crazy jihadists. America's army like most FPS's is morally and politically neutral..."
uuuh... just shut the fuck up and don't ever speak again.
thanks :P
but i don't think the game is either anti-semetic or pro-islam... it's definitely anti-israel and probably pro-hezbollah.
You want a side? If I had to choose, I'd say Israel. I'm really not a fan of Islam as a religion, especially the insane version over in the middle eastern territories. But frankly, I'm not researched enough to give my deep thoughts on the conflict, and from what I see, they're neither side much better than the other, so screw 'em. Frankly, the middle east is so fucking dangerous, that if their conflicts ended up blowing the whole region the fuck up, it might be for the best.
Frankly though, the reason I don't pick sides is because I don't care anymore. They say apathy is terrible, but fuck it. That region is a shithole and they're never going to stop fighting over land that's fucking worthless. Wake me up when they've obliterated each other, then we have some news.
There, that un-fence-sitting enough for you?
News casts kill puppies (the cute ones)
there should be a game where you can be any country/ideology and combat with any other. someone commission that.
also, if someone plays the game, let us know how it is. the trailer made it look terrible, but if some homebrew devs can get their hands on it lets mod it and put in mxyzptlk's battle lesbians. maybe i missed it, but what system is this for?
I'll just say, I'm an Arab, I don't like Hezbollah... but this type of reporting is pure hypocrisy unless it is combined with an insightful view of how "Western" society considers the games they produce to be acceptable, regardless of the fact that they primarily present similar objective sets, but based on an alternate (and seemingly more acceptable) perspective.
The reporting is obviously biased without an objective presentation/analysis of a counter viewpoint.