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two players using plasmids/environments = easy easy easy game.
Oh yeah, a splicer is walking through water, I'm gonna electrocute the water then my partner is going to throw fucking bees at him while I start shooting him with a shotgun.
Oh yeah, a splicer is walking through water, I'm gonna electrocute the water then my partner is going to throw fucking bees at him while I start shooting him with a shotgun.
Why putting coop in Bioshock 2 is a great idea:
Because there aren't enough coop games, especially ones with a story mode
Don't like the idea? Play it single player.
Because there aren't enough coop games, especially ones with a story mode
Don't like the idea? Play it single player.
i think it could work out if one player plays as the shoulder mounted little sister, and one is the big sister.....one tanks, and the other casts lol
Lovely piece... I have to admit, due to being rather skint in revent months, I have only been able to get my mits on the demo of Bioshock, which, of course, featured the opening level that you talk about. I totally agree with what you are saying. Totally, to the point where I know I need to pick up this game (I have a PS3 btw) and play the whole thing... on my own.
Even having somebody in the same room as me could easily spoil this experience, let alone somebody with a control pad in their hands and a medic badge in their pocket.
Co-op just doesn't cut it for some games. Some games I just want to shut my door, close the curtains and get wrapped up in like a good wan... bar of chocolate.
Nice read.
Even having somebody in the same room as me could easily spoil this experience, let alone somebody with a control pad in their hands and a medic badge in their pocket.
Co-op just doesn't cut it for some games. Some games I just want to shut my door, close the curtains and get wrapped up in like a good wan... bar of chocolate.
Nice read.
@stafax,
Really?
Also, playing single player would more than likely involve some AI creature staring me in the face like I'm not even there and blocking my way as I try to walk down some stairs.
Really?
Also, playing single player would more than likely involve some AI creature staring me in the face like I'm not even there and blocking my way as I try to walk down some stairs.
i have no hopes that this game will be good, it'll end up just being a travesty to the game i grew to love and raise several children with.
"Don't like the idea? Play it single player."
Nobody cares how many whether someone else is playing the game with his friend. We care about *how the game will be made.* A BioShock specifically made to accommodate co-op would, to summarize, suck.
Whether it's the six-layers-deep critique/rebuttal/reinforcement of Ayn Rand's novel, the survivor horror element, or the sense of loneliness and awe cultivated throughout the game, nothing in BioShock would be improved by adding co-op.
Just look at the f-ing screenshot of the lobby in the post and tell me that would be better with someone making snarky comments.
Nobody cares how many whether someone else is playing the game with his friend. We care about *how the game will be made.* A BioShock specifically made to accommodate co-op would, to summarize, suck.
Whether it's the six-layers-deep critique/rebuttal/reinforcement of Ayn Rand's novel, the survivor horror element, or the sense of loneliness and awe cultivated throughout the game, nothing in BioShock would be improved by adding co-op.
Just look at the f-ing screenshot of the lobby in the post and tell me that would be better with someone making snarky comments.
You're absolutely right about the Isolation being a major theme, look at how much Resident Evil has lost its 'horror' tag. I really, really hope the don't put co-op in
I don’t know if you can really say that you were truly isolated the whole time. Sure, no one was fighting by your side (except for the occasional turrets), but you did get instructions from Atlas or Tenenbaum and they did talk to you throughout a good part of the game. For me personally, I really didn’t think about the fact that I was fighting alone as I went through the game.
I think a bigger concern is how Platinum justifies putting co-op, if they do decide to implement it. Assuming there was co-op, the story would need to tie the characters together in a believable way and make it seem reasonable that they would both be in Rapture and working together, in order for co-op to work. If it is a case like Halo 3, where two other Covenant characters were just thrown in, so that you could have a semi-coherent 4 player co-op, then I think it would be distracting and really only serve to undermine what the game would seek to accomplish in terms of the story. This isn’t the sort of game you want to shovel in gameplay features just for the sake of doing so, but I think Platinum knows that.
I think a bigger concern is how Platinum justifies putting co-op, if they do decide to implement it. Assuming there was co-op, the story would need to tie the characters together in a believable way and make it seem reasonable that they would both be in Rapture and working together, in order for co-op to work. If it is a case like Halo 3, where two other Covenant characters were just thrown in, so that you could have a semi-coherent 4 player co-op, then I think it would be distracting and really only serve to undermine what the game would seek to accomplish in terms of the story. This isn’t the sort of game you want to shovel in gameplay features just for the sake of doing so, but I think Platinum knows that.
Couldn't agree more. The feeling of isolation added to the experience more than most people realize. If done right co-op is a great thing, but I don't think a game in this series has to go that route. Maybe they can do something like Resistance 2 co-op? Not sure that could work but it could be something totally seperate from the single player experience.
Just like with co-op in RE5, I have mixed feelings about this.
On one side, I think it's great for sequels to fully differentiate themselves by adding game-changing features like this. If you want the isolation and atmosphere of the original Bioshock, then play the original Bioshock. If I'm going to buy a new game, I want it to be a new game, not just more of a game I already have.
On the other end, why call it Bioshock 2 if it divorces itself completely from what Bioshock was about?
On one side, I think it's great for sequels to fully differentiate themselves by adding game-changing features like this. If you want the isolation and atmosphere of the original Bioshock, then play the original Bioshock. If I'm going to buy a new game, I want it to be a new game, not just more of a game I already have.
On the other end, why call it Bioshock 2 if it divorces itself completely from what Bioshock was about?
As one of the people who relishes RE5's co-op, I am overjoyed at the possibility of having co-op in the next Bioshock. Considering we don't know a thing about it, I think everyone should calm down. It could come in lots of different forms. It could be a side mission that is co-op only and about 2-3 hours long. It could be Halo style with two main characters running through the campaign. Or it could be RE5 style with a campaign built around co-op. Personally, the last option appeals to me the most because purpose built co-op games are my favorite type of game. Although, I would be happy with any form of co-op that the developers choose to include.
I hate forced Co-op. Considering most of my friends don't play video games, I can never get to 100% completion. I really hate this.
@icarus: That's exactly why co-op is a bad idea, though. Plopping an extra character into an single-player game without special adaptation *is* a bad design decision, but it's the only way the game could remain BioShock.
"Working co-op into the story" would result in something completely unacceptable (an idiot AI partner) or at best a redundant character. It would also result in the game world (the levels, the writing, the art, everything) being made with the intent that they be seen with a friend; quite a different experience than BioShock. Even if you didn't feel alone because of the radio, you can't deny that almost every room had some experience - radio messages, blood splatters, blood *art*, disturbing sculptures - that was intended to be experienced by the player alone.
And even the most casual player had to pick up on the intentional way the three other completely sane characters remained tantalizingly out of reach for the entire game.
"Working co-op into the story" would result in something completely unacceptable (an idiot AI partner) or at best a redundant character. It would also result in the game world (the levels, the writing, the art, everything) being made with the intent that they be seen with a friend; quite a different experience than BioShock. Even if you didn't feel alone because of the radio, you can't deny that almost every room had some experience - radio messages, blood splatters, blood *art*, disturbing sculptures - that was intended to be experienced by the player alone.
And even the most casual player had to pick up on the intentional way the three other completely sane characters remained tantalizingly out of reach for the entire game.
I gotta say I agree 95%.
Playing it in co-op mode is definitely going to lose you some immersion. But it's smart to include it for those that are not like us, who appreciate a great immersive story like a fine wine.
Those crazies that want co-op can get it too and everyone wins. It's like 'do you want ot watch City of Angels or Face-Off?" Both have Nic Cage but they're very different movies. I like both movies, but I can't just put them in whenever and watch them, I gotta be in the mood.
I think I'd like to beat it through on single-player and then go through with a friend and tear shit up. It'd be like putting Castor Troy in City of Angels :P
Playing it in co-op mode is definitely going to lose you some immersion. But it's smart to include it for those that are not like us, who appreciate a great immersive story like a fine wine.
Those crazies that want co-op can get it too and everyone wins. It's like 'do you want ot watch City of Angels or Face-Off?" Both have Nic Cage but they're very different movies. I like both movies, but I can't just put them in whenever and watch them, I gotta be in the mood.
I think I'd like to beat it through on single-player and then go through with a friend and tear shit up. It'd be like putting Castor Troy in City of Angels :P
@Enzogwmetal(I think that's how you spell it)
I always thought that's what bioshock was about when it first came out (I only ever looked at the cover). I was really disappointed when you couldn't play as big daddy.
I always thought that's what bioshock was about when it first came out (I only ever looked at the cover). I was really disappointed when you couldn't play as big daddy.
Who knows, Colette? Maybe they will do something revolutionary gameplay-wise that still conveys the feeling of isolation while allowing cooperative play. Like, one person plays as Atlas and pulls strings behind the scenes to make things go.
Okay, so that's pretty ridiculous, but you never know. And face it, you're going to buy Bioshock 2 regardless of whether it has co-op.
Okay, so that's pretty ridiculous, but you never know. And face it, you're going to buy Bioshock 2 regardless of whether it has co-op.
@hitnrun
Fair points. However as you said, "it would also result in the game world (the levels, the writing, the art, everything) being made with the intent that they be seen with a friend; quite a different experience than BioShock. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think a common concern about the sequel is what it will be too similar to the first and it won't differentiate itself (other than the story). I think it would be interesting if Platinum could make a game that believably works a partner into the game.
You said the character would be redundant, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Each character may have skills that they each need to utilize for example. Again, this has to be balanced in such a way that the game works properly as a single and co-op game. My primary concern is that it will be forced in, without explanation. My secondary concern, which I didn't mention before (but you did bring up) is that the AI issue is tricky, but that goes back to balancing the game. Is it difficult to make competent AI? Yes, but the payoff if it is done right means that Bioshock 2 would have something to significantly differentiate itself from Bioshock. As you said, it would be "quite a different experience than BioShock."
Fair points. However as you said, "it would also result in the game world (the levels, the writing, the art, everything) being made with the intent that they be seen with a friend; quite a different experience than BioShock. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think a common concern about the sequel is what it will be too similar to the first and it won't differentiate itself (other than the story). I think it would be interesting if Platinum could make a game that believably works a partner into the game.
You said the character would be redundant, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Each character may have skills that they each need to utilize for example. Again, this has to be balanced in such a way that the game works properly as a single and co-op game. My primary concern is that it will be forced in, without explanation. My secondary concern, which I didn't mention before (but you did bring up) is that the AI issue is tricky, but that goes back to balancing the game. Is it difficult to make competent AI? Yes, but the payoff if it is done right means that Bioshock 2 would have something to significantly differentiate itself from Bioshock. As you said, it would be "quite a different experience than BioShock."
Terrible idea??
Wait, has Bioshock turned into a Wii game overnight? Didn't think so.
I don't know what you are getting at, negative people. Its up to the minds at 2k to come up with the multiplayer part. You'd be a bit stupid, if you thought it would never happen, in an age where the majority of FPS games have online play.
Why should Bioshock be exempt from this? Because its not set in a futuristic dimension. Gimme a break.
Wait, has Bioshock turned into a Wii game overnight? Didn't think so.
I don't know what you are getting at, negative people. Its up to the minds at 2k to come up with the multiplayer part. You'd be a bit stupid, if you thought it would never happen, in an age where the majority of FPS games have online play.
Why should Bioshock be exempt from this? Because its not set in a futuristic dimension. Gimme a break.
Quite plainly you're wrong. There was co-op in System Shock 2 and it worked just fine, all of the atmosphere and horror was still there. Bioshock being derived from the ss series it's more of a failure *not* to include it.
why has co-op become the new black? i HATE playing with other people. and i always end up yelling at them, like the domineering bitch that i am.
I do agree with Colette on the fact that Rapture's atmosphere will be different when having a partner to help you along the way. But the thing is that we are talking about BioShock 2, not 1.5. 2K need to implement some new game play to revitalize the game. Hopefully they are able to tie cooperative play without sacrificing the ambiance.
@ icarus
It's true that if it could be executed properly (a dicey proposition), it could be "a good game." However, that is not IMO adequate for a sequel to Bioshock. If you said to me "well it's being made by the same people who made Bioshock; don't you trust them?" I would have to agree, but with the developers being changed and the reported 2K delusions of turning Bioshock a megafranchise, I frankly don't feel the need to give the new developers the benefit of the last title.
Your point about the potential value of adding novelty stands; however, incorporating the cliches of the new generation of games is not the "novelty" most of us have in mind.
@Cowboy: An "FPS"? It does have that control scheme, but it has nothing else in common with games of the genre. You could make a better case for Call of Duty 4 being an RPG.
It's true that if it could be executed properly (a dicey proposition), it could be "a good game." However, that is not IMO adequate for a sequel to Bioshock. If you said to me "well it's being made by the same people who made Bioshock; don't you trust them?" I would have to agree, but with the developers being changed and the reported 2K delusions of turning Bioshock a megafranchise, I frankly don't feel the need to give the new developers the benefit of the last title.
Your point about the potential value of adding novelty stands; however, incorporating the cliches of the new generation of games is not the "novelty" most of us have in mind.
@Cowboy: An "FPS"? It does have that control scheme, but it has nothing else in common with games of the genre. You could make a better case for Call of Duty 4 being an RPG.
We cry so much about the lack of innovation of games, and then when we decide to change up a formula a bit, we cry about that, too.
"Hey, innovate, but don't innovate TOO MUCH."
"Hey, innovate, but don't innovate TOO MUCH."
What I enjoyed most about the lonely atmosphere I felt I could stop for a moment and take in the scribbles on the wall, the destruction of a shop and observe how such a grand place fell so far. Taking all that in at my own pace was the best part. Bringing in a partner who may run it at a different pace could ruin that experience in my opinion. They may be yelling for you to hurry up and stop looking at the walls or listening to recordings and let's get shootin! Now Killzone 2, that would have been some fun co-op.
You know what would be interesting if you had two people playing on the same map but they never really say eachother. Let me explain, lets say you are playing one a top floor of some building and your online friend is playing on the bottom floor of the building. You both are alone, however the catch is one of you has to do something in order to help the other person and then you progress. Something like in Resident Evil 0 where you can teleport items or keys up a shoot to the other player so they can unlock a door. That would be a very interesting twist. Is it necessary? well Ill leave that up to you to decide. I think the atmosphere in Bioshock is perfect. Your alone in this god for saken place and you do feel alone and very very vulnerable, even with the plasmids. I really enjoyed playing that game, and yes of course co-op will effect this feeling.
@hitnrun
I would even admit that the execution issue is a very dicey and risky proposition. I can also understand your distrust of 2K, as I do have my doubts as well. I just don't think the idea should be dismissed as inherently bad. There is merely potential for it to work (or it could very well ruin the game), and I can understand if people are apprehensive about it. Also, I do want to clarify that adding clichés (i.e adding co-op just for the sake of having it) is not acceptable in my opinion and it needs to have a rationale purpose for being there. Otherwise, as I said, it will only serve to undermine the game and the story.
I would even admit that the execution issue is a very dicey and risky proposition. I can also understand your distrust of 2K, as I do have my doubts as well. I just don't think the idea should be dismissed as inherently bad. There is merely potential for it to work (or it could very well ruin the game), and I can understand if people are apprehensive about it. Also, I do want to clarify that adding clichés (i.e adding co-op just for the sake of having it) is not acceptable in my opinion and it needs to have a rationale purpose for being there. Otherwise, as I said, it will only serve to undermine the game and the story.
Someone mentioned it in a stupid way, but yes it's funny that immediately after reading this article, I read that GameInformer confirms you play as the ORIGINAL big daddy. Then I realized how foolish this article would seem if the co-op player played as a Little Sister and you had to protect them while they collect. I don't think anybody can argue that wouldn't be an amazing co-op experience. Bioshock 2 Co-op could actually be amazing.
I love how everyone's freaking out about this. I for one think all of the new ideas for Bioshock 2 are good because it actually makes the game sound relatively unique. I hate to break the news to everyone but Bioshock one was simply overrated. It was an amalgamation of a bunch of other ideas that other games have been done, and better by those respective games.
I agree but I think Bioshock 2 is going to disappoint a lot of people. It really is a hard act to follow.
I soon as Kevin Levine was confirmed to NOT be workinhg on this... my expectations fell well below purchase...
sounds like it will be 'teh suck'
sounds like it will be 'teh suck'
^ur face
no seriously you think people over-rated Bioshock???
how? i only heard of it about a month after its release. I sure it was not on many people's radar too.
no seriously you think people over-rated Bioshock???
how? i only heard of it about a month after its release. I sure it was not on many people's radar too.
It works in RE5 because it's still a challenge. It'd be a push over in Bioshock 2.
but hey, here's a crazy idea. Just don't play co-op until you've experienced it yourself?
but hey, here's a crazy idea. Just don't play co-op until you've experienced it yourself?
Both yours and Jim's articles were excellent and vocalized my fears about the upcoming sequels. Here's hoping we're all wrong and that Levine blows our minds as he already did. I just hope this is not just a cash-in. Bioshock is such a perfect game.
I'm still not of the mind that Bioshock 2 is a bad idea. System Shock had a sequel and personally I think it surpasses the first one. I think the direction and design of Bioshock 2 will be directly related to who has their hands in it. Personally, I hope Ken Levine is more involved with it then they have mentioned thus far.
@Clance
and
@hitnrun
Who said coop means single player will have to have an NPC follow you? Or effect the single player. Not all coop games are RE5 in which the vacant player is an NPC. Look at the Halo games, Timesplitters 2 and 3, Doom 3 for xbox, or System Shock 2.....
Tell me, did System Shock 2's coop ruin the single player? Did it have an NPC staring you at the face? Did it even effect the single player? No. And there are plenty of people who will argue that System Shock 2 is better than Bioshock. So why complain about coop? What's the point? You want to play the game by yourself, no one is forcing you to play it with anyone else. And I bet all of you bitching are probably going to end up liking Bioshock 2 anyways. Just quit complaining, wait till the game comes out, and then judge to see if it gets ruined or not. Do you distrust the developers that much? From what I understand, 2k Marin has former employees of 2k Boston, so do you really think they will screw this game up that much, even after they have made Bioshock and System Shock 2?
and
@hitnrun
Who said coop means single player will have to have an NPC follow you? Or effect the single player. Not all coop games are RE5 in which the vacant player is an NPC. Look at the Halo games, Timesplitters 2 and 3, Doom 3 for xbox, or System Shock 2.....
Tell me, did System Shock 2's coop ruin the single player? Did it have an NPC staring you at the face? Did it even effect the single player? No. And there are plenty of people who will argue that System Shock 2 is better than Bioshock. So why complain about coop? What's the point? You want to play the game by yourself, no one is forcing you to play it with anyone else. And I bet all of you bitching are probably going to end up liking Bioshock 2 anyways. Just quit complaining, wait till the game comes out, and then judge to see if it gets ruined or not. Do you distrust the developers that much? From what I understand, 2k Marin has former employees of 2k Boston, so do you really think they will screw this game up that much, even after they have made Bioshock and System Shock 2?
I concur wholeheartedly, that feeling you get striking terror in the psychos that inhabit the under water hell that is Rapture (with your fully upgraded tommy gun and lightning plasmid) just wouldn't feel right to me, unless you were all by yourself.
Also considering the hardest difficulty was rather moderate (IMO); I cringe at the notion of the developers compensating for the lack of difficulty with a second player by throwing hordes and hordes of crazies at the player and after taking a couple of shots they need to take cover while they wait for the health bar to regenerate. Fuck that.
Also considering the hardest difficulty was rather moderate (IMO); I cringe at the notion of the developers compensating for the lack of difficulty with a second player by throwing hordes and hordes of crazies at the player and after taking a couple of shots they need to take cover while they wait for the health bar to regenerate. Fuck that.
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