I do have a few issues with the article, such as the 'Four Heroes' trophy actually being seen as a 'Secret' in the Trophies menu. This means that no player will have any idea that they will be rewarded for bringing all four characters to the finale.
That being said, if I've mislooked and it isn't secret, it's not bad design at all. I'm guessing the trials aren't just to test player judgement and morales, but temptation too. They can have Ethan inch closer to Shaun or let him die, all for the sick of a virtual silver trophy. I'm not entirely the best of people to say this, but once you've connected with a character for that long, and you're given that choice, I'd take game reward over a trophy anyday.
I think you're right on the money with the Madison romance though, that felt really out of place. Seemed that Ethan was willing to bunk with a girl who'd he met just a few days ago (and also supposedly spends the rest of his life with her, in the good ending). Oh and like you said, he'd be screwing Madison while all the while letting Shaun drown somewhere.
I think you're entirely wrong about Shelby though. Throughout the course of the game we defend a prostitute from rape, take care of a small child and take on a partner. Some of these are choices, yes, but that is all before the 'big reveal'. I'm willing to guess that Shelby wanted to present himself as a kind hearted human being, even after the rich guy drowns Lauren and Scott (or attempts to). Yes he's willing to kill kids, but that's out of his own personal resent of his father, he's not a bad person, just a twisted one. It's a bit cliché to feel sorry for the killer, but I genuinely did for Shelby.
Yes, player choices throughout Heavy Rain prove Roger Ebert right, but they are still something to be had for a videogame. Character connection, moments of terror and disgust and (apparently) true lust. If Ebert is right that videogames removes Authorial Control (or at least to some extent), I don't care. Maybe I should, being one of the higher 'GAMES ARE ART!' snobs. But when a story plays out that has me investing my morales and true values of love and other emotions, that sounds a bit like authorship to me. We're not being forced down a path, maybe put on a little dusty road with a map (character's personality and motivations), but I don't see how we can't shape their journey a little bit.
If the game was changed in places, if David Cage didn't put that romance scene in and maybe tighten the Shelby side of things (you can hold L2 to hear characters thoughts, NO ONE ELSE CAN HEAR HIM! YOU KILL A MAN IN A SCENE YOU PLAY!) this could have proved Ebert wrong.
That's not to say he hasn't being proved wrong before. Our time will come, the game will come, it's just a matter of waiting.
And unfortunately, I believe he is. Reading his entire response, he seems to imply that video games as art is reasonable, but emotion is not.
Here is a quote from the same Roger Ebert article to which you referred:
"That a game can aspire to artistic importance as a visual experience, I accept. But for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic. "
Roger Ebert, a person who matured during the height of Pong and Space Invaders, seems to embrace his ignorance in believing video games can be a true emotional medium. Someone get this man an RPG. Only then will he understand the true impact of the gaming medium, assuming he isn't too focused on how much more cultured he could have been should he have spent his time differently.
I have a profound respect for Mr. Ebert. The man has defined his field, and I would never question his skill and depth in the film industry. But that does not by any means transfer seamlessly into other industries. The man does not know video games.
I love this article. It makes many strong points in ways I never would have processed myself. It has given me a new perspective for this format, and there is virtually nothing of it's contents I would contend against. But it does not prove Mr. Ebert correct to an absolute.
Due to the exert from this article quoted at the top of my comment, and the fact that Mr. Ebert does seemingly indeed mean that, you have proven he was wrong in the article you attempted to prove otherwise.
Unless I, in turn, am completely wrong in interpreting his words and that he doesn't mean what I believe him to, these last several paragraphs are worthless. Unfortunately, I believe we will never get the clarification from the man himself. And without that, it is ultimately open to interpretation.
Nice post. I agree completely.It ultimately depends upon the audience. For me Heavy Rain succeeds on some points and falters on others. Where it was most effective for me was creating empathy with certain characters and presenting complicated moral dilemmas and forcing me to think quickly about the ramifications and choose. Some characters I really liked and the most seemingly down-to-earth and likable person turned out to be exactly the opposite. I had chosen to play this person a certain way, assuming a certain outcome, only to be told something else. This caused me to immediately look back on all my choices with him and question what I had done. Made me feel kinda sick to my stomach.
PS: just wanted to say this is a pretty cool site I always checked and went on the other ones ha ha but they way you guys run this thing is amazing pretty much everything posted is always interesting and done in a vary personal way. It's awesome everyone loves games so much
"I see the words "plot holes" and "heavy rain" together, and I can only conclude that you haven't played it yourself, or enough to understand that there aren't any."
Even a # of the glowing reviews I saw acknowledged that in some respects the plot/story is kind of junk drawer.
So, I'm wondering...
a) Anthony, what are the glaring plot holes?
b) aNonEMoose, how is it airtight, or clear that Anthony hasn't played it himself?
Isn't that every other game in existance?
Jim's got an article on that exact subject coming up on Sunday. Until then: http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020
hpv:
I'd completely disagree that you're not a pretentious douchebag.
Ah. The failsafe "to my knowledge" line. Because you know this is actually false, but you want to pretend your lack of research proves it to be true. Lol lol lol. Try again.
"Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control."
This is like saying cheese is bad because it tastes like cheese. Some people like it one way, and some like it the other way. Some people would rather have a story they can influence and change, and others would rather have to do nothing and be told the same story. Neither is necessarily better than the other.
And that is Ebert's flaw. Not that he doesn't like games, not that he sees either medium as better or worse, but that he doesn't realize that neither medium is better than the other.
Curious though, what if someone made a game like Heavy Rain that plays itself without the need of any button presses? If you don't push anything, the story will play out the same everytime. But you have the option to push buttons at particular times to change the story. I wonder what he would say to that? Since it doesn't REQUIRE player choices. Or make it to where random choices are automatically made everytime. I guess it wouldn't be much of a game, but it is curious to see what Ebert's reaction would be to do that anyway.
ebert IS a genious about movies, and alot of the media that surrounds it, not so much videogames.
All of this hardly matters in the land of d-toid, where if you didn't succeed 100% you shouldn't have even tried in the first place.
I hate when characters do things that go against their very...character. Like that Daredevil movie, the man goes through the entire film killing every villain he sees. Then what? he lets Kingpin live. why? he killed everyone else.
Same with Malcolm Reynolds in that "heart of gold" episode. Mal's only reason for not getting together with Inara was pretty much that he didn't respect her job. Then what's he do? sleeps with a prostitute.
in any case, Heavy Rain seems like a rental, since I'll pretty much be getting a movie that I'll have to unpause occasionally as everyone seems to tell me.
Nice to see you call him out on that. This is all about opinion I don't understand why people decide to be bigots. There are proper times to call some one a douche bag. When you don't agree with some one is not one of them. He missed the point, you...not so much ha ha
It's like having an option in a Batman game to just go around murdering everyone.
It is just very odd to see a game in which the developers tell you who they want the characters to be and how they behave... and then just let you rip that apart and make the game less meaningful. That's why I love games that either let you create your own character and choose your own adventure, or games that stick tightly to their narrative and characters without letting you do anything other than play through their story.
This is why articles like this are really kind of stupid.
This game DID resonate with A LOT of people, and despite what jim sterling and many writers on this site say. Heavy rain WAS well received by the media at large (88% metacritic with 77 reviews) and personally i don't know the last time i've heard anyone talking about teletext game central and bigpond game arena when they talk about well written game journalism.
Adam Sessler said it best "even if you don't really resonate with it, it's important to play it, because of what it represents as a unique product and genre in gaming"
I agree this is a post about heavy rain not why "I am so much smarter than everyone else I need to tell them that, they are so dumb I dropped out of college :P"
This is addressed at your first comment about Heavy Rain's flaws, not your foaming-at-the-mouth-batshit-insanity in your second post:
While flaws can sometimes be overlooked in games, Heavy Rain has been hyped based almost exclusively on story and the player-driven narrative -- which is fine. The problem arises when the story is more-or-less held together with scotch tape and willingly ignores logic whenever it is convenient to push the narrative that you have a problem.
And on a side note: anyone who runs a gaming blog or news site should be ashamed of themselves for not calling out David Cage on his BS every time he said that Heavy Rain was something that had never been done before. But that could lead me to ranting all damn day.
Inara and Mal resisted sleeping together mutually, because there were a lot of things about them that were incompatible, even though they were attracted to each other. This happens a lot in life. Also, if you have a ship/roommate who is hot and her job is sleeping with OTHER people, you would be well advised to be wary of starting a relationship with her, for many obvious reasons. In general, Mal had a problem with the concept of trading love for money, all without considering the other reality, that all love costs in some way. Many dudes are guilty of this.
In Heart of Gold, he was stuck together alone all night with an attractive woman, they were both drunk, and lonely, and they were really expecting that one or both of them might die in a few hours time. And they bonded, and they had a moment. This happens in life too. Add to that the fact that this woman told him she wanted him, directly, while Inara always feigned disinterest because of her own conflicted feelings. This was completely in character, though you could perhaps call him a hypocrite for it.
...
whoa, sorry, I kind of greyed out there for a moment. Nerd rage. It's okay, I'm okay now.
You said:
"You don't have any input over the direction of HL2's story"
and then:
"If you wanna sabotage HL2's story, you can"
Do you not think that this is a contradiction?
You say that Ebert is right about player choice spoiling the story of linear games like HL2, but no choice you make in HL2 affects the story in any major way (unless you choose to stay in the same spot and halt the progress of the story altogether, but the same effect could be achieved by pressing the pause button on a DVD remote while watching a film).
You can throw milk cartons at the residents of City 17 all you want, but it doesn't change the story one bit, all that happens is the NPC says 'cut that out'. How does this sabotage the story in any meaningful way?
It might affect how seriously the player takes the game, but requiring the audience to take the story seriously in order for it to be effective is a problem for all storytelling mediums, not just videogames. I don't see a big difference between the player throwing milk cartons in HL2 and someone watching Street Fighter the movie and drinking a shot every time Jean-Claude Van Damme mispronounces something. Do you really think that Linear story games suffer from loss of authorial control any more than films or books do?
Sorry, but I'll take Oscar Wilde's word over some half-baked, half-dead, semi-retarded, "I like every single movie ever made" retard critic any day :D.
Also, just because Heavy Rain sacrifices too much authorial control, and became a good example of "bad art" doesn't make Epert's point good. If I say "All movies suck at storytelling and are bad" because Transformers had an awful script and was a bad movie, does that mean I have a good point?
"...or actively participate in a story populated by characters who make ridiculous and self-defeating decisions."
Who's to say what self-defeating truly is in the context of our choices for these characters? So Ethan Mars has sex with Madison in the heat of an emotionally stirring moment he does. Does this put his son at more risk? Obviously. But people in real life situations have done far worse.
So in the context of what 'makes sense' you are right. But I will never believe that taking control of the character and making them do something that doesn't make sense to others will ever be negative in any way.
One's own personal choice and reason for the choices are their own, and while you or I may think Ethan having sex with Madison is ridiculous, there may be players who do not. Maybe cuz they want to see titties or maybe because they felt that much of a connection with Madison.
Very good read, though.
Did you even *read* the fucking article? Apart from never calling him a "genius," ever, I specifically say that he's wrong in his attempt to define what is or isn't art on two separate occasions.
Assuming you're capable of reading past the title, my point isn't that we should all hang up our hats and admit that videogames aren't art -- the point is that in a game like Heavy Rain, choice undermines story quality and meaningfulness, which is exactly what Ebert's smaller point was. His larger point, that the entire medium is artistically bankrupt, is bunk.
Reading the article you're critiquing before monologuing your own nonsensical bullshit: I recommend it.
DodgyEmu:
I mean that HL2 isn't like Mass Effect or Heavy Rain, where your choices change external narrative events. In Mass Effect, certain characters live and die by your decisions. In HL2, you can't change anything about the scripted story in front of you. Specific things will always happen at specific times.
When I say that you can sabotage the story, I mean that even if only implicitly, the game wants you to take certain scenes seriously. WHen you see a couple comforting each other in a City 17 apartment as Combine soldiers break into a neighbor's apartment, you're meant to feel the gravity of the situation and empathize with their plight. You're NOT meant to grab the TV out of their wall, pick it up, and throw it at them for a half-hour. You CAN do that, and it ruins the mood and sabotages the story Valve is trying to tell.
Gordon may not have any scripted dialogue, but given the seriousness of the stuff you have to do in the game, it's not unfair to assume that Gordon is NOT a guy who would jump up and down, teabagging headcrabs and throwing soda cans at people for ten minutes when there's a world to be saved.
But, again, it's not that huge a deal. If you wanna play along with the story, you do, and you can really enjoy it. If you don't, you don't, but the whole experience doesn't collapse.
The .Hack games cover this up skillfully (?) by placing your avatar's actions in the hands of some other, unseen player. If your avatar is running around being a douche, it makes sense because hes literally an avatar being controlled by someone else. Whoah, meta.
Bioshock covers this (or does it?) by making your avatar a confused clone programmed to survive (by scavenging the shit out of your surroundings) and (eventually) follow the orders given to him. Whether he immediately proceeds, or gets there eventually, his actions could be seen as his mind trying to handle the pressure of being a brainwashed man-baby, accounting for all the strange player actions along the way.
A (very) similar game, Dead Space, says maybe Isaac was behaving oddly because he was scared, confused and/or going CRAZY.
Silent Hill 3 is all about a continuous cycle of life and rebirth, passing off every player failure as a past life that Heather's body is drug out of and prepared for her reincarnation where she can retry the same section.
Games are starting to deal with the burden of fitting choice into a strong narrative, and whether or not they succeed (or if they even do so intentionally) they are paving the way for games that can do both well.
Great article, and thanks for (unlike a couple recent opinion articles) making your point without being whiny and sticking to the point.

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