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Michael Thomsen is just a Nintendo fanboy who thinks Metroid Prime is the best game ever.
And seriously, why Metroid Prime? WHY? Why not Shadow of the Colossus, Noby Noby Boy (which made me say "what the fuck is this" at the menu screen), Ico, Half-Life 2, Portal, Passage or even Psychonauts? But Metroid Prime? WHAT?
At the end of the day, Metroid Prime is a game about shooting aliens in the face with your gun and solving puzzles.
And seriously, why Metroid Prime? WHY? Why not Shadow of the Colossus, Noby Noby Boy (which made me say "what the fuck is this" at the menu screen), Ico, Half-Life 2, Portal, Passage or even Psychonauts? But Metroid Prime? WHAT?
At the end of the day, Metroid Prime is a game about shooting aliens in the face with your gun and solving puzzles.
Maybe someone should make "Citizen Kane: The Video Game". It would be officially licensed and you would mostly play as a group of reporters that are trying to discover the meaning of Charles Foster Kane's last words. Gameplay would consist of first playing as the reporter, but gameplay would change to a level that allows you to control Charles Foster Kane in that moment in his life.
And despite the fact that that's even more goddamned stupid than the ABC video article, some developer SOMEWHERE is likely trying to make the idea I described a reality.
And despite the fact that that's even more goddamned stupid than the ABC video article, some developer SOMEWHERE is likely trying to make the idea I described a reality.
I have to agree with The Silent Protagonist on a certain few points here. If I'm ever asked to give an example of a game as art I always point to Super Metroid. No other game has told me a story with as few words before. There wasn't some huge overarching plot, but by the time I was done I felt like I had been on a huge journey through this planet. I still don't know exactly how they did it, but there were plot points told through nothing but visual cues and they were perfectly understandable. For example: when you reach near the end of the game and the giant metroid swoops through the wall and kills the creature in front of you and attaches itself to you immediately afterwards. There's nothing you can do. You're completely helpless to this creature which by looking at it is just a giant metroid. Then when you have only 1 point of health left it releases you, floats around making sad noises and runs away. I knew then, and not before then, that that was the baby metroid I saved in Metroid 2. A sprite with no more than 4 frames of animation just made me feel something in a way that I've never seen before. And this wasn't a cutscene. You're in control the whole time. You can move your character while being killed by the metroid and that increases the intensity. I could have run around and shot things while the metroid was floating around basically crying but I didn't. I was actually surprised and affected by what had just happened and I just stood there realizing what had just happened. When the metroid floated away I wanted nothing more than to follow. That is an example of something that the games medium can do that others can't. Sure, film could make me experience the same thing, but the way Super Metroid did it was unique to the medium and in my humble opinion, that's art.
Sadly, the medium as a whole has done very little to expand on those concepts, instead relying on cutscenes which only make the games more like movies. I love Metal Gear, I love it a lot in fact, but that story could have been told in nearly the exact same way as a movie. Metroid, on the other hand, not so much.
Wow. That was long. I'll wrap up now.
Metroid Prime was a god damn masterpiece, but it never quite did for me what Super Metroid did. I love me some IGN, but way to blow a chance at showing people who don't know games that there's more to it than shooting stuff. I agree with the good Rev. You made us look like idiots.
Sadly, the medium as a whole has done very little to expand on those concepts, instead relying on cutscenes which only make the games more like movies. I love Metal Gear, I love it a lot in fact, but that story could have been told in nearly the exact same way as a movie. Metroid, on the other hand, not so much.
Wow. That was long. I'll wrap up now.
Metroid Prime was a god damn masterpiece, but it never quite did for me what Super Metroid did. I love me some IGN, but way to blow a chance at showing people who don't know games that there's more to it than shooting stuff. I agree with the good Rev. You made us look like idiots.
Thomsen:
Yes, I can say with some confidence that I consider Kane to have some degree of depth while Prime is lacking in that department. I do this because, to be blunt, your stance of putting them on equal ground simply makes no sense. Even though I don't particularly love the film, I'd be hard-pressed to argue that nearly every scene or shot of Kane isn't composed with an eye toward multiple intended meanings and commentary on the characters, the story, the themes.
If drawing the conclusion that a film which attempts to do these things is more deep than a game which primarily concerns itself with the joy of finding items, opening doors, and shooting things in the face is to somehow ascribe "sacred cow" status to one, then I really don't know what to do for you.
Shogun Assassin may be one of my favorite B-movies movies, but I'm not going to pretend it's on equal ground with Crime and Punishment. It's very easy to play the "all art is equal and to argue otherwise is intellectual prejudice" card, but it doesn't really get us anywhere. Again, I could compare Captain Crunch to Blood Meridian with the same logic and have such an argument be as objectively defensible as it would be practically useless.
I'm not sure how you gathered that I quoted you as loving the text-based narrative gleaned from computer panels, since I never actually said anything along those lines. I did, in fact, address your assertion that the game is somehow special because you have to intuit plot points from the environment; it's undoubtedly a game-specific method of storytelling and one that should absolutely celebrated, but it's also one that other games like Portal handle with much more depth and efficiency, but which, even on its own, doesn't really exhibit the sort of intellectual or thematic complexity you ascribe to Kane. And if you're trying to argue that Metroid Prime *doesn't* tie its mechanics to "shooting and destroying," then I really have to wonder what all the boss fights and missile upgrades were for.
But please, continue to relay condescending advice on how I can get me some of your neat spurs.
Yes, I can say with some confidence that I consider Kane to have some degree of depth while Prime is lacking in that department. I do this because, to be blunt, your stance of putting them on equal ground simply makes no sense. Even though I don't particularly love the film, I'd be hard-pressed to argue that nearly every scene or shot of Kane isn't composed with an eye toward multiple intended meanings and commentary on the characters, the story, the themes.
If drawing the conclusion that a film which attempts to do these things is more deep than a game which primarily concerns itself with the joy of finding items, opening doors, and shooting things in the face is to somehow ascribe "sacred cow" status to one, then I really don't know what to do for you.
Shogun Assassin may be one of my favorite B-movies movies, but I'm not going to pretend it's on equal ground with Crime and Punishment. It's very easy to play the "all art is equal and to argue otherwise is intellectual prejudice" card, but it doesn't really get us anywhere. Again, I could compare Captain Crunch to Blood Meridian with the same logic and have such an argument be as objectively defensible as it would be practically useless.
I'm not sure how you gathered that I quoted you as loving the text-based narrative gleaned from computer panels, since I never actually said anything along those lines. I did, in fact, address your assertion that the game is somehow special because you have to intuit plot points from the environment; it's undoubtedly a game-specific method of storytelling and one that should absolutely celebrated, but it's also one that other games like Portal handle with much more depth and efficiency, but which, even on its own, doesn't really exhibit the sort of intellectual or thematic complexity you ascribe to Kane. And if you're trying to argue that Metroid Prime *doesn't* tie its mechanics to "shooting and destroying," then I really have to wonder what all the boss fights and missile upgrades were for.
But please, continue to relay condescending advice on how I can get me some of your neat spurs.
Good read, though it was already effectively summed up by "Are you fucking kidding me?"
Right now my pick for the game closest to citizen kane would be Dear Esther, though that's kind of bullshit and I'm not going to try and defend it. I don't think trying to model videogames after a movie is going to get anyone anywhere.
Right now my pick for the game closest to citizen kane would be Dear Esther, though that's kind of bullshit and I'm not going to try and defend it. I don't think trying to model videogames after a movie is going to get anyone anywhere.
Ok, you like to wax artistic about video games, we get it. Stop the presses everybody, no game can take the title Citizen Kane of Gaming until that elitist Anthony Burch has had his say. We all know that when it comes to discussing games as art, the buck stops with Burch.
Get over yourself. This stupid thing just won't die. Who really gives a shit if some asshat on IGN or ABC compared Metroid Prime to Citizen Kane. Are people really up in arms about this? Citizen Kane would be considered incredibly boring by most contemporary audiences, the comparison is meaningless to almost everyone on this site because we haven't bothered to watch a boring, overrated masterpiece.
Get over yourself. This stupid thing just won't die. Who really gives a shit if some asshat on IGN or ABC compared Metroid Prime to Citizen Kane. Are people really up in arms about this? Citizen Kane would be considered incredibly boring by most contemporary audiences, the comparison is meaningless to almost everyone on this site because we haven't bothered to watch a boring, overrated masterpiece.
theJwac:
I dunno. Could be me, but I'd assume a hefty portion of Dtoid's readership (unlike you, presumably) have attention spans extending beyond the time it takes to read the back of a cereal box.
I dunno. Could be me, but I'd assume a hefty portion of Dtoid's readership (unlike you, presumably) have attention spans extending beyond the time it takes to read the back of a cereal box.
David vs. Goliath. But who's David?
I love me some discussion like this, because it brings us closer to philosophy of games which someday will have fancy names for both of your standpoints. Keep on fighting! But please keep your gloves on.
I love me some discussion like this, because it brings us closer to philosophy of games which someday will have fancy names for both of your standpoints. Keep on fighting! But please keep your gloves on.
Basically everything I felt was just expressed by Anthony and all of the comments on this article. Thank you. Next we'll hear about how Paperboy is the Bicycle Thieves of videogames because both revolve around bikes and people that ride them.
"Thomsen was saying that these game-specific methods of conveying intensely shallow information make Metroid Prime similar to Citizen Kane. Even if the information the player received were not completely irrelevant, however, one single point would still prove Thomsen's argument entirely untenable: the cosmetic touches he describes are not specific to videogames."
How does that make his argument 'entirely untenable'? The same can be said of many aspects of Citizen Kane or any other piece of art. Why do you spend so much time fixated on one minor aspect of Thomsen's argument—Samus' visor reflections? Maybe because noting Thomsen's major points involving the subversion of genre and emphasis of narrative over plot would detract from your rebuttal?
Oh, and you can make anything sound dumb. Shadow of the Colossus is just about some guy stabbing monsters in the head for some chick. Passage is just walking around with some chick that dies before you take the long sleep. Oversimplification is cheap, but hey, it's fun (and easy)! Bravo.
How does that make his argument 'entirely untenable'? The same can be said of many aspects of Citizen Kane or any other piece of art. Why do you spend so much time fixated on one minor aspect of Thomsen's argument—Samus' visor reflections? Maybe because noting Thomsen's major points involving the subversion of genre and emphasis of narrative over plot would detract from your rebuttal?
Oh, and you can make anything sound dumb. Shadow of the Colossus is just about some guy stabbing monsters in the head for some chick. Passage is just walking around with some chick that dies before you take the long sleep. Oversimplification is cheap, but hey, it's fun (and easy)! Bravo.
I agreed with the statement you made at the end of your RevRant.
But I'm glad you wrote this article explaining your stance on the issue.
Personally I didn't feel that previous statements of Braid being the Citizen Kane (TCK) of gaming.
I mean, when I finally got to the end it blew my mind a little and I still haven't seen the 'real ending' because I haven't gotten all those damn stars yet because quite frankly; fuck that, I'll do it later.
Also, Half-Life 2 is also not TCK of games either. The real TCK of gaming is Gumshoe Alley.
But I'm glad you wrote this article explaining your stance on the issue.
Personally I didn't feel that previous statements of Braid being the Citizen Kane (TCK) of gaming.
I mean, when I finally got to the end it blew my mind a little and I still haven't seen the 'real ending' because I haven't gotten all those damn stars yet because quite frankly; fuck that, I'll do it later.
Also, Half-Life 2 is also not TCK of games either. The real TCK of gaming is Gumshoe Alley.
And for what it's worth, Thomsen's video argument wasn't broadcast on TV, it was merely a web video.
Hence is why it says "WEBCAST" right at the beginning of the video and why it's categorized under "Web Exclusives" on ABC's video page. Who knows how they've got Charlie Gibson doing introductions.
Hence is why it says "WEBCAST" right at the beginning of the video and why it's categorized under "Web Exclusives" on ABC's video page. Who knows how they've got Charlie Gibson doing introductions.
I thought you wanted games to be art? Flaming someone who's on your side isn't how you're gonna win this battle Anthony.
I think you're completely off base, Anthony. You seem to think that in order for Metroid Prime to be our Citizen Kane, it needs to be *like* Citizen Kane. It certainly does not. The media are significantly different, and a game with "a story of an extinct bird race and a woman with a bazooka on her arm" can indeed be as meaningful as La Dolce Vita. Just as conflict drives movies, violence drives the plot of most games. Once you accept that, the bazooka does not seem so bizarre. Look for meaning behind such a superficial observation. Also you should concede that Thompsen had about 2:30 to get this point across. I have heard the guy speak on podcasts and blog on the subject and respect his point of view.
I think where Metroid Prime differs from Citizen Kane is that MP owes too much to its predecessors. A lot of what critics adored about MP, whether or not they directly acknowledged it, was that it was evocative of an experience they were very nostalgic about. That isn't to say it diminishes the tremendous value of MP, just the value of the comparison to Citizen Kane. However, I still don't like your argument.
I think where Metroid Prime differs from Citizen Kane is that MP owes too much to its predecessors. A lot of what critics adored about MP, whether or not they directly acknowledged it, was that it was evocative of an experience they were very nostalgic about. That isn't to say it diminishes the tremendous value of MP, just the value of the comparison to Citizen Kane. However, I still don't like your argument.
I just want to know what is the game equivalent of The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari.
My vote is Jet Grind Radio because it has a Rob Zombie song in it.
My vote is Jet Grind Radio because it has a Rob Zombie song in it.
Wait a minute. Are you saying that that the things important in a video game need to be based around the mechanics? That seems to sell the emotional and metaphorical possibility of Video Games very short.
I mean, think about it: If the whole "idea" of video games is to interact with them, then NOT interacting with games is a rejection of the core ideas of the medium. What does it mean to have interaction restricted and limited? That's totally a potential of the medium, and not interacting with a product that usually ask for interaction presents could present us with new ideas in the medium, the same way that Theoretical Cinema, Psycho-Drama, and Structural Film.
That's why I love the Tale of Tales games; they're so willing to have a game where the player DOESN'T interact and explore that possibility of play.
I think the article is mostly on point. At the end of the day, "The Citizen Kane of Games" argument is the way people who desperately want their hobbies and nerdy needs validated by the population at large try and make video games seem meaningful to a public who doesn't watch movies or want art anyway but still know that a lot of other people think Citizen Kane is a really good movie and know that other people call it the greatest film ever made.
I mean, think about it: If the whole "idea" of video games is to interact with them, then NOT interacting with games is a rejection of the core ideas of the medium. What does it mean to have interaction restricted and limited? That's totally a potential of the medium, and not interacting with a product that usually ask for interaction presents could present us with new ideas in the medium, the same way that Theoretical Cinema, Psycho-Drama, and Structural Film.
That's why I love the Tale of Tales games; they're so willing to have a game where the player DOESN'T interact and explore that possibility of play.
I think the article is mostly on point. At the end of the day, "The Citizen Kane of Games" argument is the way people who desperately want their hobbies and nerdy needs validated by the population at large try and make video games seem meaningful to a public who doesn't watch movies or want art anyway but still know that a lot of other people think Citizen Kane is a really good movie and know that other people call it the greatest film ever made.
Thank you for writing this since (as much as I loved the Rant video) I really wanted to hear your opinion on this.
This whole thing is SUCH a missed opportunity to show the mainstream how far video games have come since Pac-Man and I feel like this guy has totally ruined it for everyone. He deserves to be ridiculed a bit (ok, a LOT)for it.
This whole thing is SUCH a missed opportunity to show the mainstream how far video games have come since Pac-Man and I feel like this guy has totally ruined it for everyone. He deserves to be ridiculed a bit (ok, a LOT)for it.
God Anthony, you didn't honestly just castigate Thomsen for being condescending, did you? Might I direct you to this little pearl of a video of yours? What a fucking prick!
You've got some great opinions Anthony, you really do, but if you're going to be an asshole to people—first Samit on your podcast for not talking at your preferred speed and now Thomsen for daring to compare any videogame to your dear Kane, which is eerily Jaffe-esque by the way—don't not expect them to stoop down to your level on occasion to give you an idea of what it's like on the receiving end.
You've got some great opinions Anthony, you really do, but if you're going to be an asshole to people—first Samit on your podcast for not talking at your preferred speed and now Thomsen for daring to compare any videogame to your dear Kane, which is eerily Jaffe-esque by the way—don't not expect them to stoop down to your level on occasion to give you an idea of what it's like on the receiving end.
Awesome article there, I still cant believe that ign idiot actually did this. I mean seriously how much crack was he on when he came up with this idea?
When I saw this, and heard Thomsen citing gamings citizen kane as metroid prime, I thought, 'eh maybe'. See, I'm of the opinion that gaming probably already has it's kane equivalent, we as gamers are just complete fucking assholes and will NEVER acknowledge it, let alone come to a consensus, due to our cynicism, skepticism, and arrogance. 'The citizen kane of gaming' is a phrase utterly devoid of meaning these days. Plenty of games have re contextualized the medium and got us thinking about it in ways we never have before, we'll never cite those because in our eyes, they're not good enough to represent the medium to the mainstream. And if we really think the arrival of 'our kane', will change everything, we're sorely mistaken. Look at comics, look at the Watchmen, which is the Citizen Kane of comics, and look at how little that changed the game for that medium. The only people who took that as a victory we're the enthusiasts, who saw it as a way of justifying the medium to people who couldn't give a shit one way or another. Roger Ebert, who I like as a movie critic, I could give a fuck about his seal of approval on games. Wait until this generation becomes the ruling class, the decision makers, and I guarantee you this will no longer be a debate. We'll call Half-life 3(in stores 2023!) the most important game never made, and we'll be bitching about how whatever comes next isn't a legitimate art form because it hasn't had its "half-life 3" yet.
"How does that make his argument 'entirely untenable'? The same can be said of many aspects of Citizen Kane or any other piece of art."
You might have a point if I hadn't spent the first three paragraphs of the article explaining that Citizen Kane's cinematography and editing are cinema-unique qualities that enhance the stories and themes, and that by comparing something to Citizen Kane you're implying that the other work utilizes similarly medium-specific qualities to achieve a desired end. When you then proceed to bring up noninteractive aesthetic stuff as evidence for how great a game is, you're doing it wrong. And, to repeat myself a second time -- yes, the environmental narrative stuff is game-specific and yes, it's kind of neat, but it's used to almost no narrative or thematic purpose in Metroid Prime beyond explaining why you're shooting stuff. Dear Esther does the exact same thing Metroid Prime does in terms of player-controlled narrative discovery, except it doesn't tie down its scenery to providing a context for face-shooting. It's a great strength of our medium, but Thomsen picked a lousy game to discuss it with, and an even more unfortunate film to compare it against.
"And for what it's worth, Thomsen's video argument wasn't broadcast on TV, it was merely a web video."
Hence why I referred to it as being on ABC's Web site. If you're referring to Niero's quote, you may also take care to notice that I'm not Niero.
"God Anthony, you didn't honestly just castigate Thomsen for being condescending, did you? Might I direct you to this little pearl of a video of yours? What a fucking prick!"
I'd argue there's a difference between being out-and-out hostile to achieve partially humorous ends, and cynically assuming that I'm trying to "earn my spurs" in the games journalism industry (subsequently implying that the speaker has already attained the spurs I so desperately, desperately desire) rather than, you know, actually stating an opinion that matters in and of itself. I've got no problem with people being out-and-out confrontational, including myself; passive-aggressive nonsense like "that's not how you earn your spurs" is different.
But hey, if you want to keep ignoring huge swaths of my argument, assume I have a greater opinion of Kane than I do, and then simplify and misinterpret things both Jaffe and I have said, then please -- be my guest.
You might have a point if I hadn't spent the first three paragraphs of the article explaining that Citizen Kane's cinematography and editing are cinema-unique qualities that enhance the stories and themes, and that by comparing something to Citizen Kane you're implying that the other work utilizes similarly medium-specific qualities to achieve a desired end. When you then proceed to bring up noninteractive aesthetic stuff as evidence for how great a game is, you're doing it wrong. And, to repeat myself a second time -- yes, the environmental narrative stuff is game-specific and yes, it's kind of neat, but it's used to almost no narrative or thematic purpose in Metroid Prime beyond explaining why you're shooting stuff. Dear Esther does the exact same thing Metroid Prime does in terms of player-controlled narrative discovery, except it doesn't tie down its scenery to providing a context for face-shooting. It's a great strength of our medium, but Thomsen picked a lousy game to discuss it with, and an even more unfortunate film to compare it against.
"And for what it's worth, Thomsen's video argument wasn't broadcast on TV, it was merely a web video."
Hence why I referred to it as being on ABC's Web site. If you're referring to Niero's quote, you may also take care to notice that I'm not Niero.
"God Anthony, you didn't honestly just castigate Thomsen for being condescending, did you? Might I direct you to this little pearl of a video of yours? What a fucking prick!"
I'd argue there's a difference between being out-and-out hostile to achieve partially humorous ends, and cynically assuming that I'm trying to "earn my spurs" in the games journalism industry (subsequently implying that the speaker has already attained the spurs I so desperately, desperately desire) rather than, you know, actually stating an opinion that matters in and of itself. I've got no problem with people being out-and-out confrontational, including myself; passive-aggressive nonsense like "that's not how you earn your spurs" is different.
But hey, if you want to keep ignoring huge swaths of my argument, assume I have a greater opinion of Kane than I do, and then simplify and misinterpret things both Jaffe and I have said, then please -- be my guest.
I am siding with Anthony Burch on this. Comparing Metroid Prime to Citizen Kane on pretty much any level you care to mention is laughable, and this Thomsen character attempting to do so is insane.
And I HATE watching Citizen Kane. Metroid Prime is a pretty great game though.
And I HATE watching Citizen Kane. Metroid Prime is a pretty great game though.
Seeing that clip on the news almost made me cry out at my keyboard. The fact that was seen by a large amount of non-gamers is a shame...
"Because games are so disrespected by the mainstream (a group which, presumably, the viewers of ABC belong to) that when you compare something to Citizen Kane, you're not just saying that the two works are similar in a few different ways -- you're saying that the work represents a watershed moment for its given medium. You're saying that it's incredibly important to the canon. You're saying that this work, while it may not be your personal favorite, showcases the strengths of its own medium like no other work. Whether you want to or not."
This sums up my reaction perfectly. I don't think he understands what people mean by "the Citizen Kane of gaming". You obviously do.
But seriously, who gives a shit what Roger Ebert and the idiots at Fox News think about gaming? I really wish people would stop caring so much about what they think and start caring more about what WE think. We matter a lot more, frankly. And in a few decades we'll ALL be gamers, so it doesn't matter.
This sums up my reaction perfectly. I don't think he understands what people mean by "the Citizen Kane of gaming". You obviously do.
But seriously, who gives a shit what Roger Ebert and the idiots at Fox News think about gaming? I really wish people would stop caring so much about what they think and start caring more about what WE think. We matter a lot more, frankly. And in a few decades we'll ALL be gamers, so it doesn't matter.
"But hey, if you want to keep ignoring huge swaths of my argument."
You mean like what you just did with Metroid Prime/Thomsen's argument?
"(subsequently implying that the speaker has already attained the spurs I so desperately, desperately desire)"
Where did Thomsen subsequently imply that? Did you mean 'by extension' or 'in essence' Thomsen was implying he had earned his spurs? If so, that's quite a leap on its own.
I ask because subsequently has a pretty plain and straightforward definition that, used in the context in which you're using it, doesn't mesh with uh...reality.
You mean like what you just did with Metroid Prime/Thomsen's argument?
"(subsequently implying that the speaker has already attained the spurs I so desperately, desperately desire)"
Where did Thomsen subsequently imply that? Did you mean 'by extension' or 'in essence' Thomsen was implying he had earned his spurs? If so, that's quite a leap on its own.
I ask because subsequently has a pretty plain and straightforward definition that, used in the context in which you're using it, doesn't mesh with uh...reality.
Citizen Kane is unbearably boring while Metroid Prime is satisfying and fun.
So no Metroid Prime isn't Citzen Kane, it's far superior to it.
So no Metroid Prime isn't Citzen Kane, it's far superior to it.
Please, elaborate on what I ignored. I'm dying to hear it. Was it the focus on exploration over action which I responded to by saying that bullshit boss fights didn't fit into that worldview? Was it that the exploratory sections of the game deliver narrative without resorting to noninteractive text or cinematic cut scenes that I responded to two (now three) times?
Or do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- I might actually have a point and you're falling back on grammar critique because you have nothing of actual substance to add to the conversation outside of butthurtedness that I'm insulting a games journo you like?
Or do you think that maybe -- just maybe -- I might actually have a point and you're falling back on grammar critique because you have nothing of actual substance to add to the conversation outside of butthurtedness that I'm insulting a games journo you like?
As I said before, IGN needs to fire that fucker, for the same reasons as stated in your last paragraph. I hope he hasn't done any damage to the perception of the medium outside current gamers.
Terrific follow-up, Anthony. I'm going to have to show this to a few friends who whole-heartedly agreed with Thomsen's statements.
Gaming has already had plenty of titles that use the unique aspects available to the medium to full effect in making an artistic statement. The problem is that public opinion isn't going to change until it's inevitably swept in with the advancement of the next generation. There isn't going to be a single game that ushers in the time of "video game legitimacy" in America. But they are going to pick one to put up on the pedestal, and I personally look forward to finding out what it will be.
Burch: I don't really think I've been condescending in all of this. Feel free to quote me or whatever, but I think I've actually been pretty civil in trying to articulate what I believe and why. I'm not interested in belittling anyone that disagrees with me. As I hope you can garner, I actually enjoy the exchange, this is no less valuable than the original assertion. As I've written, I don't write dogma or bibles, I write my experiences. We all do.
Anyway, you make some good points, and they stand as they are. My interest in all of this is not to convince people that Prime is literally Kane, but to vindicate the view that games can be viewed on the continum of human expression, which includes all media. I don't think it would be quite so apocraphyl to compare Beethoven's 9th Symphony to Kane for instance on those terms. Both are rife with technical complication, and both end with a reference to childhood that tempers the bombast with a triumphant and tragic look backwards. Ode to Joy was a children's song long before it was the fifth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony. In an angry and brooding work, it finally ends with a triumph that is unrestrained and bittersweet (it's impossible to separate this from the terrible end of Beethoven's life, his own lost love, and deafness). I think you can see parallels between that and Kane. I accept your disagreement, but I still see many of those themes echoing in Prime. Psychoanalyze me if you like, but I think about that when I play, I feel those themes in the world, the sound design, all the immersive little flourishes, and what I perceive to be the gameplay's role in binding all of those separate elements together. You are free to call Prime tawdry and unsophisticated, or lacking in emotional depth. That is your experience with it, not mine.
And so about the scanning discrepency. this is a minor quibble but one I've long written about. When you use the word "plot" I associate that with a record of events (the cutscenes, the dialogue, the lore-- all the non-interactive bits). I consider that quite separate from narrative (which I think of as a record of the actual experience, the gameplay itself). When you wrote "inferring plot stuff" I immediately associated that with the story panels, and not the puzzle solving/environmental surveying which I gather you meant.
And finally, I think the combat is a great point to criticize Prime for. It's extraordinarily flat (even while the boss fights are terrific puzzles), and quite lacking in the same kind of empathy and emotional experience that I find in the exploration. Enemies have almost no reaction animations, and they are almost all the same belligerent, bull-rushing AI. It's a significant flaw. We agree on this. It's rarely compulsory though, and I wind up avoiding it more often than not, especially when the real backtracking sets in. But as many have said about Kane ( a movie I'm not especially attached to either, it might be noted), there are some terrific flaws in every great work. Beethoven's 9th certainly didn't need to be 60+ minutes. There's something algebraic about the whole precept of Rosebud, and in spite of it, I still don't really like Kane very much. And so too Prime's combat. Not a huge fan of that element.
Anyway, you make some good points, and they stand as they are. My interest in all of this is not to convince people that Prime is literally Kane, but to vindicate the view that games can be viewed on the continum of human expression, which includes all media. I don't think it would be quite so apocraphyl to compare Beethoven's 9th Symphony to Kane for instance on those terms. Both are rife with technical complication, and both end with a reference to childhood that tempers the bombast with a triumphant and tragic look backwards. Ode to Joy was a children's song long before it was the fifth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony. In an angry and brooding work, it finally ends with a triumph that is unrestrained and bittersweet (it's impossible to separate this from the terrible end of Beethoven's life, his own lost love, and deafness). I think you can see parallels between that and Kane. I accept your disagreement, but I still see many of those themes echoing in Prime. Psychoanalyze me if you like, but I think about that when I play, I feel those themes in the world, the sound design, all the immersive little flourishes, and what I perceive to be the gameplay's role in binding all of those separate elements together. You are free to call Prime tawdry and unsophisticated, or lacking in emotional depth. That is your experience with it, not mine.
And so about the scanning discrepency. this is a minor quibble but one I've long written about. When you use the word "plot" I associate that with a record of events (the cutscenes, the dialogue, the lore-- all the non-interactive bits). I consider that quite separate from narrative (which I think of as a record of the actual experience, the gameplay itself). When you wrote "inferring plot stuff" I immediately associated that with the story panels, and not the puzzle solving/environmental surveying which I gather you meant.
And finally, I think the combat is a great point to criticize Prime for. It's extraordinarily flat (even while the boss fights are terrific puzzles), and quite lacking in the same kind of empathy and emotional experience that I find in the exploration. Enemies have almost no reaction animations, and they are almost all the same belligerent, bull-rushing AI. It's a significant flaw. We agree on this. It's rarely compulsory though, and I wind up avoiding it more often than not, especially when the real backtracking sets in. But as many have said about Kane ( a movie I'm not especially attached to either, it might be noted), there are some terrific flaws in every great work. Beethoven's 9th certainly didn't need to be 60+ minutes. There's something algebraic about the whole precept of Rosebud, and in spite of it, I still don't really like Kane very much. And so too Prime's combat. Not a huge fan of that element.
The funny thing is, Anthony, I like both of you (wait, what's so funny about that?). There need to be more Anthony Burches and Michael Thomsens in the videogames press, not that I need to tell you. Yes, I like people who argue that games can be art, that fun really is not enough, I can't help it.
I think you overacted to a minor dig that, frankly, you should have seen coming.
I do owe you an apology for hastily accusing you of something that I honestly didn't mean to accuse you of in the first place. I meant to quote the 'simplify' portion of what your response but even then, you were referring to the differences between you and Jaffe, so it was completely baseless. I'm genuinely sorry if you can believe that.
Now I've made an ass of myself. Harrumph.
I think you overacted to a minor dig that, frankly, you should have seen coming.
I do owe you an apology for hastily accusing you of something that I honestly didn't mean to accuse you of in the first place. I meant to quote the 'simplify' portion of what your response but even then, you were referring to the differences between you and Jaffe, so it was completely baseless. I'm genuinely sorry if you can believe that.
Now I've made an ass of myself. Harrumph.
And for the record, I didn't mean that you haven't earned you spurs in the industry, I meant it only in terms of scoring points in this debate. I hope you don't think I'd say my position as a game writer is any better-earned than anyone else's. I don't believe that and was unclear if that's how my meaning came across. I believe I'm adding something to the spectrum, but we all are, and I would argue co-equals in that way. All console warring and brand slanders aside, I do very much believe we're all in this together.
This is ON FIRE!!!
Awesome article and comments Anthony, thats why tou're THE REVEREND and shall lead the gaming race TO GLORY!!
Oh, and congrats for Mike Thomsen, even though i completely disagree with you i can respect that you're trying to have a decent and respectful discussion here.
Awesome article and comments Anthony, thats why tou're THE REVEREND and shall lead the gaming race TO GLORY!!
Oh, and congrats for Mike Thomsen, even though i completely disagree with you i can respect that you're trying to have a decent and respectful discussion here.
Should have just left it at "are you fucking kidding me?" considering this article hardly makes a good debate and in general just shows your bias towards other games. Of course no Kane of games exists, but that's stating the obvious.
Well I know one thing for sure, then def isn't the Citizen Kane of 'Citizen Kane of games'-related articles.
Well I know one thing for sure, then def isn't the Citizen Kane of 'Citizen Kane of games'-related articles.
@ the article,
"That's what you're going to show to Ebert to convince him videogames are a legitimate art form? "
What does Ebert know about video games? Does he get to criticize everything now professionally? If he's a movie critic does he also get to be a professional food critic? Ebert doesn't know the difference between Mario and Halo, so who gives a shit?
I don't know.. I can't really see the point of this article. So you disagree with some guy about what game he feels is the "Citizen Kane" of gaming. Whatever that means. I don't even see where anybody defined it. It's just an arbitrary term that's been flying around for way too long now.
I'd rather you just attacked the notion of trying to call any game the Citizen Kane of gaming. Which game in particular is completely in the eye of the beholder. It's completely unnecessary to debate it.
I agree that two different mediums do have certain comparisons that can be made, but once you start pointing out specific pieces then it just seems to be completely masturbatory.
"That's what you're going to show to Ebert to convince him videogames are a legitimate art form? "
What does Ebert know about video games? Does he get to criticize everything now professionally? If he's a movie critic does he also get to be a professional food critic? Ebert doesn't know the difference between Mario and Halo, so who gives a shit?
I don't know.. I can't really see the point of this article. So you disagree with some guy about what game he feels is the "Citizen Kane" of gaming. Whatever that means. I don't even see where anybody defined it. It's just an arbitrary term that's been flying around for way too long now.
I'd rather you just attacked the notion of trying to call any game the Citizen Kane of gaming. Which game in particular is completely in the eye of the beholder. It's completely unnecessary to debate it.
I agree that two different mediums do have certain comparisons that can be made, but once you start pointing out specific pieces then it just seems to be completely masturbatory.
Niero hit my first reaction, it's a huge shame that a pinhead like that guy squandered a huge opportunity to reach a broader audience.
Anthony,
I think you make many good points. Like you, my biggest problem with the piece was that Thomsen basically lists irrelevant similarities when comparing Metroid to Kane, while missing why certain cinests revere Citizen Kane so much (and why no game so far is comparable in quality to most movies).
I do, however, object (admittedly due of my own biases) to passages of this flavor:
"Metroid Prime uses its graphical touches to express the story of Shooting Space Pirates in the Face...
Then why not talk about games where actual gameplay conveys ideas and emotions rather than pointless cosmetic crap? Why not talk about the mechanical metaphors at work in Braid, or the murder mechanics of Shadow of the Colossus, or a thousand other games that actually attempt to explore the aesthetic power of interactivity? I would never argue that any of these games represent the Citizen Kane of gaming, but they'd be infinitely better examples than a game whose artistic merits don't extend beyond the surface-level nonsense Thomsen cites...
Yes, sure, you can infer some relatively shallow plot details from the environment, which is a completely game-specific method of conveying story. However, a hundred games accomplish this goal with much more depth and efficiency than Metroid Prime (Portal, BioShock)..."
When you disagree with Thomsen because his comparisons are off or because games are hardly comparable to movies or because basically all games are not very good in the grand scheme of things, I am totally with you. But the potshots against what is by all measures a fantastic game are unnecessary. Now, I am sure a lot of this has to do with your repeatedly stated dislike of Metroid games, but I think your complaints about the artistic merits of Metroid Prime are flawed.
First, as natetehgreat mentioned, you rely heavily on some pretty significant misrepresentations of the game in question. Metroid Prime is about "shooting space bugs" like Shadow of Colossus is about poking giant statues with a sword. In fact, it's even less like that, because at least in Shadow of the Colossus, the majority of the time is actually spent poking things with a sword.
More to the point, it is completely false to argue that MP does not use its interactive elements in concert with its aesthetic ends. Metroid Prime of course is about the perils of hubris and fallen nature of our world (one even might call it Oakeshottian if they were feeling particularly obnoxious). Man plays God, gets pwned, and you arrive in time to clean up the mess. Its cliched as hell and Michael Crichton did it best (from the schlocky, pop-culture point of view that is) way back in 1990, but for some reason it still makes for good games (Bioshock is a variant on the same theme).
However, what makes Metroid Prime good is how it uses its principal game mechanics of exploration and discovery (note: not bug-shooting) to slowly reveal the decreiptedness of its world. The game makes repeated use of environmental cues, written records, level design, and music to drive this home. I think a reviewer of the game from when it came out said it better than I could:
"And what a world you are presented with to explore. Tallon IV reverberates sorrow and loss, with crumbling rock structures and decrepit, decaying statues looming overhead. Enemies cry and screech in agony, almost seeming as terrified to be meeting you as you are of them. Every part of the game - be it a sun-filled chamber or a mucky, darkened mine - portrays a tortured, lonely face; one which will both intrigue and haunt the player as he or she battles through it."
As the goals of the game revolve around exploring deeper into the planet and unravelling more areas (the main objective of the game is quite literally "Find out what happened on Tallon IV"), thematic development that primarily uses the environment and atmosphere lines up nicely with the innate game design. Thanks to expert pacing, foreshadowing, and level layout, the themes slowly revealed and expanded on as the player searches deeper yet is perpetually propelled onward by more intriguing details.
The game also makes good use of the other elements intrinsic to its genre. Metroid games are known for their overwhelming sense of loneliness, and Metroid Prime is no different. In the 2d Metroid games, it is used to create an oppressive atmosphere of hostility and tension in the world, underscoring that you are all alone fighting the virtuous fight against an entire world that hates you (see especially Super Metroid, which is basically a bare-bones revenge flick). But Tallon IV is much less dark and aggressive than Zebes (to many a Super Metroid fan's disappointment) and thus the pervasive loneliness serves a different end: it gives the player sufficient distance and disengagement from the world to see the sadness and even tragedy of its situation. As you wander all alone through the flooded and forlorn downed frigate, for example, it's near impossible not to lament it's demise. Perhaps a few crying NPCs would have had the same effect, but it would lack all the subtlety of MP's approach and would risk coming off maudlin. With Metroid Prime, its thematic elements bubble up rather than come handed down, and they feel all the more convincing and organic because of it.
This brings me to the final point about the game (and about all Metroidvanias): that progress has an aura of being self-directed and the designers let you believe that you set your own goals. You follow a certain path because you choose to rather than some in-game NPC telling you. Of course, this choice business is all a lie and the progression in the games is generally fairly linear. But, through exclusive and clever use of item-gating and ample suggestion (coyly show some area intriguingly out-of-reach), Metroidvanias/MP can convince players of their own autonomy. This game mechanic creates an incomparably immersive experience, crucial to the success of the thematic-exploration-through-atmosphere approach to game design. It also, as suggested earlier, makes the point of the game feel self-realized rather than imposed by the designers, making it more authentic and convincing.
Metroidvanias generally, and Metroid Prime specifically, are hardly the only games to use a similar atmosphere to pursue similar goals. Bioshock 5 years later uses the same atmospheric conceit of the ruined world to pursue similarly Crichton-esque themes and Shadow of the Colossos also makes use of loneliness and emptiness to convey tragedy and sadness. Indeed, atmosphere is absolutely integral to the thematic ends of basically any game. Without it, SotC would simply be the simplification mentioned earlier: a game where you poke giant monsters until they die. What sets Metroid Prime apart is it puts exploration front and center and thus emphasizes the true main character to most good games: the environment in which they happen.
I am not alone in praising its quality either. It won basically all Game of the Year awards when in came out in 2002 and it has a higher culmulative rating than any game yet mentioned here in comparison (http://www.gamerankings.com/browse.html). It could be most game sites are overpopulated by nostalgics and Nintendo fanboys (redundancy?), but to such a degree that it skews everything in favor of a mediocrity seems unlikely. This is certainly not an argument that Metroid Prime is the best game evar and (favored Valve/Team Ico/Indie game) is without merit, but a plea to not casually dismiss a universally acclaimed game because you dislike the genre. I definitely executed far more face-shots in Bioshock or Half-Life 2, and yet somehow we both came out liking them tremendously. Why is Metroid Prime not afforded the same possibility?
I think you make many good points. Like you, my biggest problem with the piece was that Thomsen basically lists irrelevant similarities when comparing Metroid to Kane, while missing why certain cinests revere Citizen Kane so much (and why no game so far is comparable in quality to most movies).
I do, however, object (admittedly due of my own biases) to passages of this flavor:
"Metroid Prime uses its graphical touches to express the story of Shooting Space Pirates in the Face...
Then why not talk about games where actual gameplay conveys ideas and emotions rather than pointless cosmetic crap? Why not talk about the mechanical metaphors at work in Braid, or the murder mechanics of Shadow of the Colossus, or a thousand other games that actually attempt to explore the aesthetic power of interactivity? I would never argue that any of these games represent the Citizen Kane of gaming, but they'd be infinitely better examples than a game whose artistic merits don't extend beyond the surface-level nonsense Thomsen cites...
Yes, sure, you can infer some relatively shallow plot details from the environment, which is a completely game-specific method of conveying story. However, a hundred games accomplish this goal with much more depth and efficiency than Metroid Prime (Portal, BioShock)..."
When you disagree with Thomsen because his comparisons are off or because games are hardly comparable to movies or because basically all games are not very good in the grand scheme of things, I am totally with you. But the potshots against what is by all measures a fantastic game are unnecessary. Now, I am sure a lot of this has to do with your repeatedly stated dislike of Metroid games, but I think your complaints about the artistic merits of Metroid Prime are flawed.
First, as natetehgreat mentioned, you rely heavily on some pretty significant misrepresentations of the game in question. Metroid Prime is about "shooting space bugs" like Shadow of Colossus is about poking giant statues with a sword. In fact, it's even less like that, because at least in Shadow of the Colossus, the majority of the time is actually spent poking things with a sword.
More to the point, it is completely false to argue that MP does not use its interactive elements in concert with its aesthetic ends. Metroid Prime of course is about the perils of hubris and fallen nature of our world (one even might call it Oakeshottian if they were feeling particularly obnoxious). Man plays God, gets pwned, and you arrive in time to clean up the mess. Its cliched as hell and Michael Crichton did it best (from the schlocky, pop-culture point of view that is) way back in 1990, but for some reason it still makes for good games (Bioshock is a variant on the same theme).
However, what makes Metroid Prime good is how it uses its principal game mechanics of exploration and discovery (note: not bug-shooting) to slowly reveal the decreiptedness of its world. The game makes repeated use of environmental cues, written records, level design, and music to drive this home. I think a reviewer of the game from when it came out said it better than I could:
"And what a world you are presented with to explore. Tallon IV reverberates sorrow and loss, with crumbling rock structures and decrepit, decaying statues looming overhead. Enemies cry and screech in agony, almost seeming as terrified to be meeting you as you are of them. Every part of the game - be it a sun-filled chamber or a mucky, darkened mine - portrays a tortured, lonely face; one which will both intrigue and haunt the player as he or she battles through it."
As the goals of the game revolve around exploring deeper into the planet and unravelling more areas (the main objective of the game is quite literally "Find out what happened on Tallon IV"), thematic development that primarily uses the environment and atmosphere lines up nicely with the innate game design. Thanks to expert pacing, foreshadowing, and level layout, the themes slowly revealed and expanded on as the player searches deeper yet is perpetually propelled onward by more intriguing details.
The game also makes good use of the other elements intrinsic to its genre. Metroid games are known for their overwhelming sense of loneliness, and Metroid Prime is no different. In the 2d Metroid games, it is used to create an oppressive atmosphere of hostility and tension in the world, underscoring that you are all alone fighting the virtuous fight against an entire world that hates you (see especially Super Metroid, which is basically a bare-bones revenge flick). But Tallon IV is much less dark and aggressive than Zebes (to many a Super Metroid fan's disappointment) and thus the pervasive loneliness serves a different end: it gives the player sufficient distance and disengagement from the world to see the sadness and even tragedy of its situation. As you wander all alone through the flooded and forlorn downed frigate, for example, it's near impossible not to lament it's demise. Perhaps a few crying NPCs would have had the same effect, but it would lack all the subtlety of MP's approach and would risk coming off maudlin. With Metroid Prime, its thematic elements bubble up rather than come handed down, and they feel all the more convincing and organic because of it.
This brings me to the final point about the game (and about all Metroidvanias): that progress has an aura of being self-directed and the designers let you believe that you set your own goals. You follow a certain path because you choose to rather than some in-game NPC telling you. Of course, this choice business is all a lie and the progression in the games is generally fairly linear. But, through exclusive and clever use of item-gating and ample suggestion (coyly show some area intriguingly out-of-reach), Metroidvanias/MP can convince players of their own autonomy. This game mechanic creates an incomparably immersive experience, crucial to the success of the thematic-exploration-through-atmosphere approach to game design. It also, as suggested earlier, makes the point of the game feel self-realized rather than imposed by the designers, making it more authentic and convincing.
Metroidvanias generally, and Metroid Prime specifically, are hardly the only games to use a similar atmosphere to pursue similar goals. Bioshock 5 years later uses the same atmospheric conceit of the ruined world to pursue similarly Crichton-esque themes and Shadow of the Colossos also makes use of loneliness and emptiness to convey tragedy and sadness. Indeed, atmosphere is absolutely integral to the thematic ends of basically any game. Without it, SotC would simply be the simplification mentioned earlier: a game where you poke giant monsters until they die. What sets Metroid Prime apart is it puts exploration front and center and thus emphasizes the true main character to most good games: the environment in which they happen.
I am not alone in praising its quality either. It won basically all Game of the Year awards when in came out in 2002 and it has a higher culmulative rating than any game yet mentioned here in comparison (http://www.gamerankings.com/browse.html). It could be most game sites are overpopulated by nostalgics and Nintendo fanboys (redundancy?), but to such a degree that it skews everything in favor of a mediocrity seems unlikely. This is certainly not an argument that Metroid Prime is the best game evar and (favored Valve/Team Ico/Indie game) is without merit, but a plea to not casually dismiss a universally acclaimed game because you dislike the genre. I definitely executed far more face-shots in Bioshock or Half-Life 2, and yet somehow we both came out liking them tremendously. Why is Metroid Prime not afforded the same possibility?
I'm going to wait for the article that says that arguing with another person's comparison (read: opinion) is ludicrous.
Seriously, this article isn't as good as it is immature. People have different opinions, who cares if yours is different? In fact, making these rebuttal articles is exactly what the original creator wants, as it drives traffic to his site. Just take your opinion elsewhere.
Seriously, this article isn't as good as it is immature. People have different opinions, who cares if yours is different? In fact, making these rebuttal articles is exactly what the original creator wants, as it drives traffic to his site. Just take your opinion elsewhere.
i need to see citizen kane
but i agree with you, metroid prime is definitively not one of those games that uses the strengths of gaming to manifest itself as an art form
that place belongs to games like ICO and Shadow of the Colossus, those are games where the narrative is composed mostly of the actions you take and not of the content of a cutscene or an audio log, noone told you slaying the colossus was bad, you just knew it and always got that regret feeling before that last stab, you almost never talked to yorda in ICO, hell you cant even UNDERSTAND what she says, but you cant deny you almost jumped around in joy when you saw that AMAZING ending on the beach
it uses the main characteristic of games, CONTROL, to send a messange, the control over an ingame character gives the player a huge level of immersion, why explain the situation when you can make the player FEEL IT, art is no more than the act of sending a messange through unconventional means, pictures, movies, books and why not, GAMES, are all different manifestations of art
KTHANXBAI
but i agree with you, metroid prime is definitively not one of those games that uses the strengths of gaming to manifest itself as an art form
that place belongs to games like ICO and Shadow of the Colossus, those are games where the narrative is composed mostly of the actions you take and not of the content of a cutscene or an audio log, noone told you slaying the colossus was bad, you just knew it and always got that regret feeling before that last stab, you almost never talked to yorda in ICO, hell you cant even UNDERSTAND what she says, but you cant deny you almost jumped around in joy when you saw that AMAZING ending on the beach
it uses the main characteristic of games, CONTROL, to send a messange, the control over an ingame character gives the player a huge level of immersion, why explain the situation when you can make the player FEEL IT, art is no more than the act of sending a messange through unconventional means, pictures, movies, books and why not, GAMES, are all different manifestations of art
KTHANXBAI
I've spent years trying to justify my video game habit with everyone, and this guy actually comes close to making a point.
Metroid Prime and it's sequels were all brilliant games, but the "Citizen Kane" of games? Far from it. But not for the same reasons others have raised.
You can't really compare video games to movies, the same way you can't compare books to comic books(I feel the term Graphic Novel is pretentious and hurts comics more than it helps). They're completely different mediums, that have a few minor overlaps but in the end cannot be compared to each other. Apples and Oranges.
That being said, Prime was brilliant, and had some of the best level design, character design, back story, and minor nit-picky side story stuff that makes a good book/comic/movie/game truly fantastic.
Was it as good as Braid? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as SotC? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as Halo? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as Ocarina of Time? No, because OoT was the single greatest game ever.(okay, so that may have been me ranting, but I think I raised my point.)
Metroid Prime and it's sequels were all brilliant games, but the "Citizen Kane" of games? Far from it. But not for the same reasons others have raised.
You can't really compare video games to movies, the same way you can't compare books to comic books(I feel the term Graphic Novel is pretentious and hurts comics more than it helps). They're completely different mediums, that have a few minor overlaps but in the end cannot be compared to each other. Apples and Oranges.
That being said, Prime was brilliant, and had some of the best level design, character design, back story, and minor nit-picky side story stuff that makes a good book/comic/movie/game truly fantastic.
Was it as good as Braid? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as SotC? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as Halo? Maybe. Two different genres.
Was it as good as Ocarina of Time? No, because OoT was the single greatest game ever.(okay, so that may have been me ranting, but I think I raised my point.)
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