inFAMOUS was a game with a pretty engaging karma system. Good and Evil represented separate upgrades for all the powers, changing just about everything in the game. Plus one unique power for each side, with the Evil one being significantly more useful and destructive. But more than that, inFAMOUS had a kind of narrative framework you rarely see in karma system games, with each choice having a tangible effect on the story throughout the game rather than just a good/bad ending result. The choices were still clear as night and day, but the results of those choices had a real effect on how you played the game, what powers were available to you, and how the main character goes about his business through basically the entire story.
I'm also fond of Mass Effect's take on the choice system specifically because it refrains from the archetypal good/evil. Sure, some of the things you can do would qualify as morally bankrupt, but the game has varying results for different options. Sometimes cutting a person short with a bullet will make the fight afterwards easier. Sometimes a kind word won't do as well as a threat will. And the bottom line at the end is, there's no "good" or "bad" result for you to look over. The big choices are all deep and complex, sometimes the "evil" choice is the one that could save the world. It's a very gray kind of game in that regard, which I like about it.
In all seriousness, not that they were super hard, once I learned I had to kill Big Daddies to get ADAM (thanks VGFreak1225) I think it atleast seemingly like an extra hurdle, especially when I went after my first Bouncer and he lunged at me like a fucking rhino. But I think necessarily what you want more than game breaking moral dilemma is something like the removal or restriction of Vita Chambers. Though I get what your saying, you have no reason what you're saying with removing said reason to ever play the game as a bad guy when the same reward will come, it's just gonna take a little longer.
I tend to like a more "gray" approach.
Anyway, great blog... and fapped! :)
Your post definitely raises a lot of questions. I wonder if you have any suggestions on how to improve morality systems.
Great thoughts. Now I have another reason to try Metro. I also heard of Iji but I don't think I ever tried it. Do you really have to kill *none* of the enemies?
Also, I am working on an indie game right now that I want to try to tackle some of these problems with. Outside of stupid rewards systems, I think most morality games make the mistake of just having a blanket "good/bad" which is not accurate to how people actually think. For that reason I want to have 3 different axes of personality. Thoughts?
I did happen to like how it represented my preference for instant gratification, though. I kind of learned something about myself there. And I think there was an intereting aspect of gameplay in the commitment to my decision in the beginning to harvest every little sister even though I wanted to get the rare plasmids you get when you save three of the girls. Anyway, great blog!
At the end of the day, it's hypocritcal for a developer to give you freedom, then make you feel utterly bad over something that's required for the fourth wall's main goal - to complete the game. That's really why I loved New Vegas, it basically gave you all these grey areas and your karma didn't grant you attributes or penalise you in extreme ways; which was basically my pet hate of Fallout 3.
New Vegas is a morally ambiguous game for Machaivellian people.
I'm not one for playing the downright evil, but I like playing the character who makes the tough but right decisions (like Mass Effect), but I'd play a darker character if it was written well. Knights of the Old Republic is a game that says you can be evil, but we all know you're supposed to play it as a good guy.
Anyway, if the evil side was better written in games, rather than striking you with the obvious consequences, I'd play it more ambigious every time.
Great blog, Wrenchfarm!
From a real world precepective, it seems flawed and in many ways it is, but from a game design percpective it makes perfect sense. Look at the Witcher and Infamous as examples. You hint at this in your last paragraph, but honestly I´m not sure if that would work too well, again if it affected gameplay. Gamers always look for "solutions" when you give them freedom, the "how can I beat this?" or "what will this get me? mentally is one we can never escape. No matter how much you want the game to be morally ambiguous, in the end, it´s all about letting the players have fun.
@Kid23455
You are right to call me out on that. I have some ideas for how games can implement morality in a more meaningful or impactful way, but its difficult. The masochistic ethics student in me wants to play a game that really twists your nuts and makes you take a deep look inside by applying significant downsides to doing the right thing, but the gamer in me wants to have fun. Its a hard thing to balance.
@Blindfire
Thanks Blind! Sadly I don't have a PS3 so I missed inFamous. I'm interested by what your saying though, I always heard inFamous was one of those games that suffered from the "resuce a kitten from a try or steal a childs lunch money" type of moral choice. You make it sound more nuanced and meaningful, I'll have to look it up.
ME is great. I liked the way they handled the Paragon/Renegade path. To me though, that was mostly about attitude than morality, the choices usually boiled down to a cooperative level headed response or a pragmatic and quick approach. Either path you take you are still serving a greater good. I also liked ME for putting some backbone in the goodguy options. Most of the time they were kinder and gentler, but in a few instances taking the goodguy option meant punching some punk in the face before he made the worst choice of his life or getting in a backroom bar fight for sticking up for the little guy. I like that they made being good a strong and empowering thing.
@Garethxxgod
Sorry! This is why I just talk about games rather than make them!
@Elsa
Yes! DA did a great job. It was similar to ME, but sometimes they offered choices that really crossed the line and were hard to write off as something done in the name of the greater good. I really enjoyed how your choices effected how other characters perceived you and there were these critical moments where they stood up to you on the grounds of some issue. I like that realistic tension and conflict, especially when two members of your party split on the same issue and force you to choose between them.
Damn, I have no idea why I forgot about DA while writing this thing. Nice catch!
@Manasteel
That would be interesting. I have to admit that in some games I find myself picking the coached or fence sitting dialogue choices because I want to keep my options open, it might be better to push the player to take a stand one way or another, especially if those decisions are going to have long term effects.
@Triplzero
Indeed. Its weird because I like games as a medium and as entertainment I consume, so I see it both ways. Sometimes I really want to get in there and see games that mess with the player and really stretch what the medium is capable of even if it gets uncomfortable. But I'm also a regular working stiff that wants to get his entertainments worth out of his money. I think this is where indy games really thrive, they get to test those boundaries and the reduced cost makes it less painful risk. Case in point, Amnesia: The Dark Decent is like submitting yourself to torture, its a horrifying game. But it is also amazing and powerful.
I'll try to get a blog done with my own ideas to improve morality systems in games soon!
@Kingsigy
I actually do mention that, its what takes the sting out of Bioshocks morality play. But thats not just to pick on Bioshock, a lot of game do the same kind of thing.
@The Sama
You can cheat the system in Iji by having enemies wipe each other out with friendly fire and other natural hazardous, but it is still quite a challenge!
I think a gradient of attitudes or personalities may be a smoother way to do something like this than the black and white "good/bad" karma meter. I'd love to see a game that does a lot of back end stuff invisible to the player to determine their personality and play style. Like L4Ds biometric readings that try and gauge the different players level of tension (how well it succeeds is a matter of some debate). Very small choices (what weapons they pick up, if they even attempt stealth, lethal vs non-lethal solutions, dialogue choices, ect) that are all tallied up behind the scenes without ever really hitting the play over the head with a moral choice moment. Interesting to think about anyway, I bet it would be a pain to get to work.
@Handsomebeast
Indeed, the choice is so cartoonishly black and white that it almost loses importance. When I went through the game on hard I harvested all the Sisters, know what I got as a special treat for myself with that extra juice? LEVEL 3 BEES IN MY ARM! Take that you scuba wearing freaks!
@Stevil
Very true. New Vegas caters to that grey area sweet spot. Its pretty obvious that the Legion are bad-guys, but the other forces you can align yourself with are hardly saints. I ended up feeling the most sympathy for Mr. House, at least he had vision.
You make a good point about the quality of writing. Usually the bad route gets the short shift in the plot department. I imagine it can be hard to write a real quality game that allows for both a compelling good and bad arc, but developers should really put the effort in. If you are going to offer a choice at all, why make one a weak also-ran? It would be better to avoid it all in that case.
@Fetusmilk
You know it, just check the tropes. Half my favourite characters rock it chaotic neutral.
@Lorddeathofmurdermountain
See I disagree. The splicers are former citizens who chose to come to Rapture, chose to participate in an insane genetic arms race. The Sisters were children taken without consent or understanding, subjected to horrific experimentation, genetic alteration, and behavioural conditioning. In my opinion, they were clear cut victims of a messed up society more concerned with finding new and interesting ways to make themselves into monsters than to give two wits about the lives they ruined to get there. I felt pretty righteous ripping apart those greasy splicers and escorting those girls to safety.
The choice to value personal survival over the value of others is at the core of Bioshock and what makes it an interesting game. It leads to cool differences of opinion like ours! I just wish that debate impacted the game in a more meaningful way.
@mrandydixon
Yeah, I felt like a heel when I harvested them all for achievement points after I beat the game the first time.
That goddamn gamer score will make monsters of us all.
@Wolfy-Boey
That was the problem I was running into as well. I recognize that games are entertainment and you dont want the message of the game to interfere with the fun and enjoyment. However, as much as it makes sense, I can't help but feel there has to be a way to eat our cake and have it too. The power games have as a medium to let players explore these ideas is too good to ignore. What I want to know is if that kind of boundry pushing will always be the domain of niche and indy games, or can a AAA title find a way to challenge us like that?
Thanks again for the comments and faps all! I might write a follow up to this later if I can come up with some ideas worth sharing to improve ethics and morality in games.
Maybe if one goes around razing other people's lands while trying to expand one's own borders, one returns to one's homeland after the latest successful campaign to find that one's own hometown has been sacked and pillaged, perhaps by a displaced group of nomads who once resided in one of the lands that the main character annexed? On the flip-side, after dispensing refreshments to dehydrated derelicts, if one finds oneself lost in the desert without even a sip of sweat to be had, a traveler may appear to guide the protagonist to an oasis.
It's supposed to be "What goes around, comes around". Bounty hunters coming after a mass murdering mad-man is not justice meted out by the cosmos, that's just the laws of society catching up with someoone.
There's also much to be said for separating the rewards gained for selfish actions from those given for selfless ones into Material versus Spiritual/Emotional.
A virtuous hero could develop greater mental fortitude and resilience as a result of doing everything the hard way and earn the respect of the people that s/he helps, gaining allies and the occassional discount on goods while a self-serving type could acquire vast wealth, powerful weapons and fancy clothes as well as the admiration of anyone who are impressed by such things including legions of lackeys and hangers-on.
The problem, though, is that very few games have the characters able to make you feel bad about being evil. Shooting some dudes in Poker as John Marston is something you don't do because it doesn't give you any money (and money is useless); on the flip side, if they gave you tons of money, you'd do it every time because there's no downside. Some random mooks died. Woo. You kill literally thousands of people in the game, and these guys were probably just as bad. No pain, and plenty of gain.
It's a really hard problem. I'm actually about to play Iji for the first time (I downloaded it forever ago) and...I'm looking forward to it, if it's got this good implementations.
You have an incredible self-awareness about this stuff. It's like you've stepped back and analyzed it and then stepped back again to analyze that. You've got a great perspective.
And you're totally right. I touched on it briefly in the RDR No Clip (thanks for the shout-out, btw!) but it seems like the paths of good and evil are just two sides of the same coin. They both go to the same place and the rewards are rarely all that different. I want my evil path to be dangerous and risky, filled with reward and regret.
Again, this is an amazing piece. One of my favorite writers on Dtoid!
Also quick point. Dark side ended up being better than light in Kotor because the last waves in the final dungeon had people that wouldn't be hit by LS powers but that would get murdered by force lightning (Since it dealt direct damage that was guaranteed) Also, if you're dark side then you can regenerate 100% of your health on the last boss by using force drain in the same way he does. It's slightly insane.
(That said, playing Grey Jedi turns out to be the best possible option because you always have an excess of force points if you EVER use a lightsaber, meaning you can dip into either side without loss)
Sadly, this system was sloppily copy and pasted into a dozen games since then, and it's failed every time since.
@AwesomeExMachina
I consider that high praise, you're one of my fav writers on Dtoid!
I can think of one example, kinda, where being the bad guy gets you paid -- In The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.
By joining the Dark Brotherhood and agreeing to murder innocent people in cold blood for money you get several advantages and opportunities not available to the less morally flexible characters. It is nice that Oblivion doesn't pull a 'Hitman' and make all your targets degenerate scum either, most of them are innocent and unaware that they are the subject of an assassination contract.
Notably you can by spells from an exclusive DB merchant who sells several unique and useful spells that are a better value of magicka spent for volume of effects than you can create yourself or buy elsewhere.
By following the questline you can pick up so truly beastly loot, including a unique item that increases your attributes just by sitting in your inventory, leaving all your equipment slots open for other buff gear. As well as a bow with an turn undead enchantment that is higher than any other case in the game. You also get one of the fastest horses in the game for free, plus it is unkillable.
Less tangibly, the DB quest is one of the best written and most entertaining in the game.
On the downside? Pretty much nothing, you might have to pay a bribe now and then if your work is sloppy and the guard are informed of your murderin' tresspassin' and looting ways, but compared to the benefits the drawbacks are insignificant.
There is no reason not to be an evil murdering bastard member in good standing with the Dark Brotherhood, unless you just aren't down with killing strangers for fun and profit.
I think the helplessness of being bound to one's fate makes it all the more dramatic and soul-affecting.
Yes, most people do bad for a percieved benefit, but often their bad acts have a consequence, e.g. the drug dealer who wants to get paid but will most likly end up dead or in jail.
Choices to do bad in games should reflect this logic (which BTW Epic Mickey does with the thinner option).
On a completely unrelated note, anyone who actually harvests the little sisters in Bioshock is a heartless son of a bitch, I don't actually know what the animation does or anything, and I don't want to.

surf dtoid with 

Rising (10+)
People you follow






















follow