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Weekend Reading: Pen and paper versus console RPGs, part 3 photo

Yes, this is The Haloing of this Weekend Reading arc of mine. Finally, the comparison between console RPGs and pen & paper RPGs will come to a close. The two will duel it out in epic combat, mostly fuelled by your comments and the ones that existed on Digg.

First, I want to take a minute to reflect back on this a bit myself. When I started this, I never really had the mindset to say that one was better than the other. I've always considered them two very different things, sharing the common gene of triumphing story above all else. I've certainly got fond memories of both systems -- although, in the end, I guess I'm a little biased towards pen and paper games.

Well, enough of this before I start blubbering into tears or making you sit through long monologues about my memories. Hit the jump, and check out the previous two in case you haven't already.

A lot of people mentioned in the first part that they avoided pen and paper games because of the high learning curve of the systems. Now, I really can't deny this. So, my suggestion for this is instead to try something like GURPS (surprise), or just find a group of more experienced people who are willing to show you the ropes. At most local hobby stores, they'll have social nights, where people will RP. If you just ask, one group or another will gladly take you in and explain things as they go. 

Grumbel on digg commented:

How does having a character basically be just a collection of numbers increases your attachment to it? I have heard that point a lot, but I just don't get it. Character creation right at the start of the game is among the things I hate in western RPGs, since it means you have to choose between things you don't know anything about. How will more intelligence influence the game, what will more strength do, etc.? Is +1 good or is +2 just right? How much is a +2 to begin with, can I fix it up later in the game? It just isn't fun to decide those before you have even seen the actual game.

Stats aren't the end-all be-all to characters. Rather, they help you form an idea of what your character's strengths and weaknesses are. Just because you've got a 13 skill in diplomacy doesn't mean that it'll prevent you, the player, from making bad decisions. It's just a way for the GM or the computer to determine how well you'll succeed/fail at a task. It's more of a guideline than anything.

Masterthiefster on digg:

I don't think anyone who truly understands what a P&P RPG actually is would ever consider "console RPGs" to be RPGs by any stretch of the word.

While "computer-style"/"western-style" RPGs also fall short of the mark, they don't fall as far short as these Japanese games that are basically action-adventures with levelling.

Having turn-based combat and a fantasy setting does not make a game an RPG.

Hm, this brings about an interesting question: what do you think makes an RPG, at this point? I'll leave this up to you to discuss, and it'll get visited in another Weekend Reading.

I guess some of you are asking what the point of all this is. I think what I'm trying to convey over the past couple of articles is that while both pen and paper and console games can give a rewarding experience, they do so in very different ways. My preoccupation has always been with the story, and how the game manages to achieve it.

With pen and paper RPGs, the story is almost completely up to the player -- it's the original, and best, sandbox environment. The characters can be completely original and you gain such strong attachments to them, mainly because you've completely made the character yourself. At the same time, players might create characters that are utterly flat and two-dimensional, and the system can sometimes reflect life too realistically, screwing the players over mercilessly.

Console games lock you into a single storyline, but instead of giving players total freedom in a realm, they instead lull you into acceptance of the role that you're playing by using tricks and telling the story in such a way that you become emotionally invested in what goes on. In the end, you've become attached to the character, although it might end up in a different way. In the end, it really is more like reading a book or watching a movie -- yet I think more emotional attachment occurs. An RPG is most likely to be the first title to come out as a proven "games as art" title, simply because of such a strong storyline that's present in whatever the game might be.

What can these two systems draw on from each other, since they're inextricably related to our want and desire to hear and tell stories? Well, console RPGs are working in, somewhat slowly, the ability to take care of things in a not so linear order, giving players more freedom. If it affected the outcome (but no "true ending" BS, please), then all the better. Hopefully in the coming years, developers will take advantage of downloadable content to give new content -- or to even change the storyline at certain diverging paths (taking advantage of background downloading).

Pen and paper is a little tricky in terms of borrowing from consoles -- the reason being that there's complete transparency in how the system works. While not exclusive to video games, having common themes running throughout campaigns, whatever the setting may be, is a sign of familiarity that helps create an attachment. I'm thinking in terms of the Final Fantasy stuff -- chocobos, Cid, moogles, etc. Whatever the incarnations may be, you take extra care to pay attention for those items.

A little hidden motive of mine has been to convince you all to give pen and paper a shot. Hopefully you actually will at this point. So, what'd you think of the articles? I'll actually respond in the comments this time!








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10 comments | showing # 1 to 10
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Aaron Mxy Yost's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 20:56
Aaron Mxy Yost
When I started this, I never really had the mindset to say that one was better than the other.

The answer is obvious: Both pen & paper and console RPGs are way better than LARPing.
crizz's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 21:46
crizz
Pen and Paper RPGs have the advantage of allowing a participant to have a greater say in how their character develops, behaves and reacts to given situations.

Console RPGs (the good ones), focus on storytelling, and are a powerful visual medium.

I like both, I have PPRPG'ed for years, and have played console RPGs. The distinction is the freedom of choice you have interacting with a DM or Gamemaster who can run things "on the fly."
Durjh84n51d's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 21:58
Durjh84n51d

Hah! good ol' Darkon. I wouldn't call it role-playing, but the few times I went I had a blast. The idea is great fun, you just risk looking stupid while doing it.
So the key is, go to one of their big events, when alcohol is part of the equation. Drink said alcohol, and ignore any self-conscious feelings that may crop up.

Also, don't call anyone a 'wench'. Some of the ladies are drinking as well, and might forget that you're in-character.
I say this because I narrowly avoided a serious thrashing at the hands of a piss-drunk, mad-as-hell whipcord of a woman who took offense to the W-bomb. I thank my friends for dragging me away before it got too ugly.
Angry Irish's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 23:02
Angry Irish
Oh fuck. Amptgard. So I had a friend who told me he quit WoW because he missed his friends. However, at the same time, he joined amptgard (I'm not sure if I'm spelling it correctly). don't get me wrong. It's all fun to do, but he forgot he had friends that grew up with him.

Not only that, but the only time I could hang out with him was when we had D&D sessions. I love the game to death but the whole group took forever to progress. So sometimes I had to leave early because I have responsibilities. Like work in the morning.

So those fuckers kicked me out and let my character die without anyone telling me. So now I don't have anyone to play pen and paper RPGs with since nobody else has the attention span to play it.

I think I have every right to be pissed off at them. I love D&D and amptgard can be fun, but he takes those activities too seriously.
Teh Ted's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 23:32
Teh Ted
I think you missed the most fundamental difference between pen and paper and a computer game...the human feedback. There's just no dynamism to any aspect of a computer rpg. The 'polish' you talk about is because the 'GM' in a computer RPG cripples your choices...when you only get to choose between three things, well, you better HOPE that the consequences of any of those three choices are fleshed out. In a 'real' RPG, there's no limit to what you do or how you do it, although one of the most interesting things that you didn't touch on is that a tabletop/pen and paper RPG can be just even more linear and 'on rails' than a computer RPG with the right GM. Computer RPGs tend to be very lenient in dealing with players...but as a real life GM, I can out and out cheat if I want to. It's amazing the things that you can do behind a GM screen. But ultimately, that strikes me as the main thing lacking from computer RPGs that you get in a table top/pen and paper setting...the human interaction, the give and take between the 'artist' (GM, author of the adventure) and the 'audience' (players). Pen and paper is, by its nature, participatory. Computer RPGs are only participatory in the sense that choose your own adventure books are participatory.
Brad Rice's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 23:43
Brad Rice
I covered that back in the first article, actually.

I know GMs can cheat real bad -- sometime in your favor, at least. The thing is, there are those extremes that can happen that are dictated by the system (without the GM intervention) that will screw the player over. I gave an example in the second article about that, to.
Harsgault's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/08/2007 23:52
Harsgault
The PnP's are good, as a player of GURPS through Savage Worlds and the grand ancient love of Gamma World. It's all good, but always lacking unless you can find fellow gamers locally..
Console games I've always found a touch lacking in the areas of customizability and that honestly open storyline where the player(s) can really influence what's going on.
The MUSH however, rules over all these options. Combining PnP or just open-story gaming with a worldwide community to link up and play with. Sure you only deal with text on your computer screen, but hey some of us are old enough to remember and enjoy Zork too.
Ritalin Twitch's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/09/2007 02:28
Ritalin Twitch
I'm a pen and paper guy, played on and off for years under several systems, also used to run a fairly regular Shadowrun (3e) game with several friends. While I think Crpgs are fun, if I want epic storytelling I'll read a book. Espeically since in a book I dont have to fight random encounters before I can progress to chapter 2. I think alot of the western Crpgs since fallout have done a bit better job of coming close to the PnP style of gameplay, where your hero is defined by the user and given several courses of action to get through the game. A good Crpg still dosn't come close to a good pen n paper experience, because at its best paper games are a cooperative storytelling experience. Its been a couple of years, but my players still talk about a high speed rickshaw chase that capstoned an Exalted playsession. It had action, adventure, romance, comedy... and was the product of an impromptu gestalt of minds, rather than just pressing x, reading some text and watching a cutscene. People are always attached to things that are born of their own two hands.

For people that are new to gaming and not sure where to put their stats, one of my favorite GM tricks is to get them to describe the character they want to play. Once they have an idea for the character, its usually natural deciding where the stats should go. I have always believed you should build your stats around your character, and not vice versa.
Rpg_Worshiper's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/09/2007 09:28
Rpg_Worshiper
I think people's definition of RPG will continue to change. In light of Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Mass Effect and the already successful Elderscrolls IV Oblivion, who can say what actually defines a Role Playing Game? I suppose it's like the article says; an RPG is an RPG in the eye of the player.
Lowtax's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/29/2007 16:15
Lowtax
Mxyzptlk LOL So true. So true.


Two different styles of gaming. It's like Warhammer, I play that and it's just different.

Nothing beats holding a grudge against one of your friends because he had to sit in for the DM and ended up killing everyone off cuz he's douche magoo and a half.
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