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Ugh, off topic (sort of) but the mention of digital books makes me scared to death that the publishing industry is going to start taking notes from the games industry. Books as service, anyone? Expiring licenses, chapter dlc, etc.
"People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60."
I had no idea that they were charging a mere $60 bucks out of the goodness of their hearts. Bless them.
I had no idea that they were charging a mere $60 bucks out of the goodness of their hearts. Bless them.
"The idea of a new Xbox that refuses to play used games may sound like a problematic, consumer-unfriendly, potentially suicidal idea to reasonable people who are capable of long-term thought, but some people are right behind it. "
Seems to work just fine for the PC with Steam, no?
Seems to work just fine for the PC with Steam, no?
Why are rich people becoming so damned stupid lately? If you get rid of used games, retail stores go out of business, and there's nobody left to sell your games. If you get rid of used games, consumers CAN'T AFFORD to buy your new game! ONLY $60? Seriously? Movies cost as much to make as games and it costs about $12 to go to the cinema. If I couldn't trade in used games I wouldn't play console games. $60 is the difference between paying the rent on time or not eating for two weeks to do so for me. Get your head out of your ass.
"I had no idea that they were charging a mere $60 bucks out of the goodness of their hearts. Bless them."
- I Was A Cactus
This made my day.
- I Was A Cactus
This made my day.
Here, I will make it simple for him to understand.
Here is how my buying habits work, as well as literally everyone else I know. This is also how the large majority of others gamers buying habits work, since I worked at an EB Games for a long time.
Step One- Take old games that no one is playing anymore and trade them in to EB Games, or sell them on Ebay.
Step Two- Take money from that trade or sale, and buy a new game with it.
Step Three- Play that new game.
Step 4- Wait until a different new game that you want to play has released.
Step 5- Repeat Steps 1 through 4
Now, here is what it will look like if I can no longer trade in my old games in order to afford new ones.
Step One- Take old games that I am not playing anymore.
Step Two- Throw them in the trash since they are now useless.
Step Three- Read about all of the great new games being released that I can no longer afford because my ability to pay for those new games has been taken away.
Step Four- Get frustrated that I can longer play 80% of the games that I used to buy New, and simply pirate those games instead.
Here is how my buying habits work, as well as literally everyone else I know. This is also how the large majority of others gamers buying habits work, since I worked at an EB Games for a long time.
Step One- Take old games that no one is playing anymore and trade them in to EB Games, or sell them on Ebay.
Step Two- Take money from that trade or sale, and buy a new game with it.
Step Three- Play that new game.
Step 4- Wait until a different new game that you want to play has released.
Step 5- Repeat Steps 1 through 4
Now, here is what it will look like if I can no longer trade in my old games in order to afford new ones.
Step One- Take old games that I am not playing anymore.
Step Two- Throw them in the trash since they are now useless.
Step Three- Read about all of the great new games being released that I can no longer afford because my ability to pay for those new games has been taken away.
Step Four- Get frustrated that I can longer play 80% of the games that I used to buy New, and simply pirate those games instead.
"People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60."
That's another part of the problem. Major publishers expect to earn so much money that they only invest in enormous, multi-million "triple-A" (lol) titles that would generate millions of $ in revenues. The game doesn't do as well as the (often unrealistic) expectations? Time for some major layoff / shut down the studio.
What's wrong with games with a moderate budget enjoying a moderate success?
That's another part of the problem. Major publishers expect to earn so much money that they only invest in enormous, multi-million "triple-A" (lol) titles that would generate millions of $ in revenues. The game doesn't do as well as the (often unrealistic) expectations? Time for some major layoff / shut down the studio.
What's wrong with games with a moderate budget enjoying a moderate success?
I still don't buy the idea of a console that's used proof - as key retailers would NEVER carry such consoles and that would be bad for business.
Even if it turned out to be true, however, all it would succeed in me doing is leaving "hardcore" gaming consoles behind for PC and I'd just keep Nintendo around.
Volition, however, I have no sympathy for now. Not that I had much before. Spouting nonsense like this isn't really a good idea when your publisher is presently cutting jobs and shutting down studios. You don't want to give gamers reasons to not buy your games, after all.
Even if it turned out to be true, however, all it would succeed in me doing is leaving "hardcore" gaming consoles behind for PC and I'd just keep Nintendo around.
Volition, however, I have no sympathy for now. Not that I had much before. Spouting nonsense like this isn't really a good idea when your publisher is presently cutting jobs and shutting down studios. You don't want to give gamers reasons to not buy your games, after all.
If someone like Valve were in charge of the system, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it.
Someone like Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo, though? No thanks.
Someone like Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo, though? No thanks.
If this does indeed go through then it's one console I wouldn't buy. Simple as.
Let's see, a game on Microsofts system that has some shitty coding that stops me playing elsewhere and prevents me from playing it elsewhere or the exact same game minus that code on Sony's system. Which to choose, which to choose...
Let's see, a game on Microsofts system that has some shitty coding that stops me playing elsewhere and prevents me from playing it elsewhere or the exact same game minus that code on Sony's system. Which to choose, which to choose...
No, its a terrible idea for consumers and everyone knows it. They are going to attempt to sell the game data, over the internet, for the same price we buy it in store, you can note the fact that "only $60" seems to be too little for Jameson "Red Rump" Durall.
Game companies don't recognize the good that comes from used games. Extra money for that 10 year old kid to use towards a new game, new interest in a series that is long gone (IE Darkness, a game thats sequel releases tomorrow hasn't been found new for years).
Not to mention the fact that I enjoy the act of collecting. Not being able to have a physical copy would effectively kill my desire to pick up many titles till they reach bare minimum.
Maybe devs should try a little bit harder to get something out of publishers. They are the ones making the games why don't they try going after the people that are actually taking their money?
Game companies don't recognize the good that comes from used games. Extra money for that 10 year old kid to use towards a new game, new interest in a series that is long gone (IE Darkness, a game thats sequel releases tomorrow hasn't been found new for years).
Not to mention the fact that I enjoy the act of collecting. Not being able to have a physical copy would effectively kill my desire to pick up many titles till they reach bare minimum.
Maybe devs should try a little bit harder to get something out of publishers. They are the ones making the games why don't they try going after the people that are actually taking their money?
Could someone explain to me how exactly this would work? How will a console know if a disk is new or used?
Given what's going on with THQ lately I imagine this guy is at the height of his bitterness right now. As distasteful as I find this idea, I don't blame him for how he feels right now.
@JamnOnTheOne Most Steam games don't sell for $60. Even new, a lot of titles launch at $20-30. Bigger name titles can be more expensive, but that's why Steam is capable of changing prices on the fly for daily deals, something brick and mortar can't do. Also I traded in games to get skyrim at GameStop, which I then activated on steam.
@ComplainerTheThird
Ars Technica did an article last week exploring possibilities: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/01/how-the-next-xbox-could-stop-you-from-playing-used-games.ars
Ars Technica did an article last week exploring possibilities: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/01/how-the-next-xbox-could-stop-you-from-playing-used-games.ars
@ JamnOnTheOne
Yep, it has worked out great for the PC! I mean, granted piracy on the PC is so brutal that many developers have abandoned it altogether and nobody can remember the last time a multi-platform game sold better on the PC....But besides that, I can see how removing the PC crowds ability to trade in their old games has really helped the PC market!!!
I mean...besides that whole massive piracy thing that is 90% worse on the PC than it is on consoles...probably because we can actually trade in our old games in order to afford new ones, so we don't have to pirate like the PC crowd does....but, ya know, whatever....
Yep, it has worked out great for the PC! I mean, granted piracy on the PC is so brutal that many developers have abandoned it altogether and nobody can remember the last time a multi-platform game sold better on the PC....But besides that, I can see how removing the PC crowds ability to trade in their old games has really helped the PC market!!!
I mean...besides that whole massive piracy thing that is 90% worse on the PC than it is on consoles...probably because we can actually trade in our old games in order to afford new ones, so we don't have to pirate like the PC crowd does....but, ya know, whatever....
He still doesn't address all of the long term problems that this would cause. What about when new copies of the game are near impossible to find? What about when servers are down and content licenses are impossible to transfer? We shouldn't have to deal with degrading consumer rights unless the system is fundamentally broken, which I'm not convinced it is. If they want to put me in a position where I end up hating a game I paid 60 dollars for and there's nothing I can do about it, no selling or trading it, then screw them.
He could have phrased his point in a different way. Only $60? Haha, he sounds like an out of touch dick. I'm not going to stop using Gamefly or searching for the best deal I can on video games. A lot of the time games aren't worth $60.
I'm almost tempted to just give up gaming as a whole.
Maybe play some emulators, but honestly, it wouldn't be missed to be honest.
Maybe play some emulators, but honestly, it wouldn't be missed to be honest.
The industry is WAY over saturated right now anyway. People have to buy used games because it simply isn't cost effective to buy all the games you'd want to play at a new $60 price. While its terrible people lose their jobs, some companies going under isn't a bad thing all the time. Stronger companies who support the gamers or make quality products survive because they earn their money.
Lets not forget the people out there who have 2-3 kids and work 2 jobs that still want to play games on their little free time. They barely have enough to buy a $20-$30 used copy of MW2 a year or two after its been released to play on the PS3/Xbox they got as a gift one Christmas. You are entirely cutting out a customer base there. They might after had a few bucks left on their system from a Points or PSN card to buy some of that DLC that you have already stuck on the disk and charge customers for again to unlock it.
I'm sure we aren't far from being charged $40 for a game...then if we want to play Co-Op mode we have to pay $5 to unlock that, want to play multiplayer? $20 oh and of course the typical DLC comes out that you pay more for...
I rarely pirate games as is now and if I do, I almost always buy the game within a month after I know if I like it or not. If they start going to a "new game only" model you bet your buck I'm gonna pirate almost every game I get from then on. If you really want your market to fail see what happens when you p.o a bunch of game nerds :)
Lets not forget the people out there who have 2-3 kids and work 2 jobs that still want to play games on their little free time. They barely have enough to buy a $20-$30 used copy of MW2 a year or two after its been released to play on the PS3/Xbox they got as a gift one Christmas. You are entirely cutting out a customer base there. They might after had a few bucks left on their system from a Points or PSN card to buy some of that DLC that you have already stuck on the disk and charge customers for again to unlock it.
I'm sure we aren't far from being charged $40 for a game...then if we want to play Co-Op mode we have to pay $5 to unlock that, want to play multiplayer? $20 oh and of course the typical DLC comes out that you pay more for...
I rarely pirate games as is now and if I do, I almost always buy the game within a month after I know if I like it or not. If they start going to a "new game only" model you bet your buck I'm gonna pirate almost every game I get from then on. If you really want your market to fail see what happens when you p.o a bunch of game nerds :)
Here's an idea that seems to be lax in the games industry right now: how about you fuckers learn some god damn efficiency. Learn to make a game with a reasonable cost to profit ratio. Stop blowing money on parties for industry people as you hype the games, stop with all your wasteful bullshit. Make yourself leaner, meaner, and ultimately, better and for fuck sakes evolve!
Learn that the way to attract customers is to provide a better more enjoyable product then the other guy. Whichever one of these dumb shit devs / publishers figures out how to give us what we want without a bunch of bullshit will get to rule the market from atop a golden, jewel encrusted throne perched on a mountain of money.
And that bullshit line: ONLY 60 dollars. FUCK YOU ASSHOLE. Games stopped being only $60 when you fuckers started selling them to us peacemeal. Sure $60 bucks gets you most of the game, but if you want the entire fucking game you better drop $80-100 and preorder the fucking thing.
Narrow minded, self entitled, arrogant dev slapnuts!
Learn that the way to attract customers is to provide a better more enjoyable product then the other guy. Whichever one of these dumb shit devs / publishers figures out how to give us what we want without a bunch of bullshit will get to rule the market from atop a golden, jewel encrusted throne perched on a mountain of money.
And that bullshit line: ONLY 60 dollars. FUCK YOU ASSHOLE. Games stopped being only $60 when you fuckers started selling them to us peacemeal. Sure $60 bucks gets you most of the game, but if you want the entire fucking game you better drop $80-100 and preorder the fucking thing.
Narrow minded, self entitled, arrogant dev slapnuts!
I trade games around with friends all the time and often purchase them new if I like them so we can play together. Exchanging codes to do that would be a huge pain in the ass.
Meh. I don't need the next Xbox if they would sink to such an anti-consumerist low. Make my day, Microsoft. Goodness knows I can live without whatever next overrated Halo game or watered down Fable.
I guess he didn't get his fill with releasing a trimmed down Saint's Row 3 and then selling the rest later as DLC. :O
Make the games cheaper so more players can afford them, instead of pulling this whole "oh you don't know how we're cutting off our noses despite our face" when a simple search could tell you that the reason for the $10 increase 5 or so years ago was a loose and superficial reason to begin with, and maybe I'll see the point in making a console that will refuse used games, but since they'll never happen -possibly because A) Publishers are greedy and B) Limiting your fanbase will mean less demand, which means higher prices to make ends meet- I can't see even eye to eye on this.
As for his over complication of things, that's really all this is going to bring to gamers willing to pay for new games. But frankly we're already in a world where making things simple means wasting your time doing things you shouldn't have to do in order to get there -and mostly because these companies want to "get theirs". Like look at how Netflix was going to split up their company and double up on the steps customers would need to do to enjoy their services. It seems like the idea is that to move forward, we have to move quite a few steps back first.
Remember when the future used to be a fun thing to think about? Now the future just sucks balls.
I can't wait to see if this really goes into place, just to see the company who implements it lose everything because more then half of their fanbase can't afford the games any more. Theres so many more theories that could be cooked up too, like how games will need to become longer because most companies will have to make fewer games because their titles will get less support overall, like the movie studio who can only release on 3 movies a year -5-10 hour games probably won't cut it any more. Or how it'll become an elitist club of people who can afford the luxury, as apposed to those of us who, you know, actually have expenses.
As for his over complication of things, that's really all this is going to bring to gamers willing to pay for new games. But frankly we're already in a world where making things simple means wasting your time doing things you shouldn't have to do in order to get there -and mostly because these companies want to "get theirs". Like look at how Netflix was going to split up their company and double up on the steps customers would need to do to enjoy their services. It seems like the idea is that to move forward, we have to move quite a few steps back first.
Remember when the future used to be a fun thing to think about? Now the future just sucks balls.
I can't wait to see if this really goes into place, just to see the company who implements it lose everything because more then half of their fanbase can't afford the games any more. Theres so many more theories that could be cooked up too, like how games will need to become longer because most companies will have to make fewer games because their titles will get less support overall, like the movie studio who can only release on 3 movies a year -5-10 hour games probably won't cut it any more. Or how it'll become an elitist club of people who can afford the luxury, as apposed to those of us who, you know, actually have expenses.
Fuck anyone with this mindset.
[common sense]
Where are the voices that realize that vidya games, although a luxury, dont have to be a rich man hobby. They can be for anyone, and the day the MRSP reflects that sentiment will be the day that the user base expands so greatly that the threat of the used market will be a thing of the past.
[/commmon sense]
[common sense]
Where are the voices that realize that vidya games, although a luxury, dont have to be a rich man hobby. They can be for anyone, and the day the MRSP reflects that sentiment will be the day that the user base expands so greatly that the threat of the used market will be a thing of the past.
[/commmon sense]
@Mr Andy Dixon: Sorry, but that's really shortsighted. Valve is really not as consumer-friendly as people like to think they are; there are numerous examples of this online.
I don't want to "steal traffic" by promoting my own blog here but I wrote a bit about the Volition dev's statement the other day, for anyone who is interested: http://www.mlindgren.ca/archives/536
I don't want to "steal traffic" by promoting my own blog here but I wrote a bit about the Volition dev's statement the other day, for anyone who is interested: http://www.mlindgren.ca/archives/536
The only and I repeat ONLY thing that I would find acceptable about a console that locked out used games.......
Are all the jackass developers who would have to face facts that their game sucked, wasn't worth nearly what they were asking and that they DESERVE to go OUT OF BUSINESS!
Unfortunately for every asshat developer who releases a staming pile and is perplexed by its low sales then immediately shouts "Piracy & Used Games!" ..... There are probably three to five smaller deves who release quality games that fall through the cracks that might not make it if not for the fans they made because someone picked one of their older titles up used on a whim.
Are all the jackass developers who would have to face facts that their game sucked, wasn't worth nearly what they were asking and that they DESERVE to go OUT OF BUSINESS!
Unfortunately for every asshat developer who releases a staming pile and is perplexed by its low sales then immediately shouts "Piracy & Used Games!" ..... There are probably three to five smaller deves who release quality games that fall through the cracks that might not make it if not for the fans they made because someone picked one of their older titles up used on a whim.
I really don't see this whole idea of used games not working on MS's next gen console coming to fruition. It just seems like a completely BULLSHIT idea and the thought of ANYbody ok with it is baffling.
Oh my this is a truly abhorrent idea. As other users have commented, if a console that ran like this came to fruition, I wouldn't buy it.
My main issue is with such concepts comes down to pricing. Microsift are living in cloud-fucking-cuckoo-land with the pricepoints of a huge majority of their "on demand" offerings, and if we're locked paying whatever they deign to charge, everybody loses - especially MS when sales fall through the floor.
I can't imagine they'd be stupid enough to follow through with this, but one thing I can do without is a tool from Volition telling me that it's a great idea and anyone that disagrees is some sort of thief or cheat of the system. Pffff!!
My main issue is with such concepts comes down to pricing. Microsift are living in cloud-fucking-cuckoo-land with the pricepoints of a huge majority of their "on demand" offerings, and if we're locked paying whatever they deign to charge, everybody loses - especially MS when sales fall through the floor.
I can't imagine they'd be stupid enough to follow through with this, but one thing I can do without is a tool from Volition telling me that it's a great idea and anyone that disagrees is some sort of thief or cheat of the system. Pffff!!
Adding THQ to my list of devs to ignore, right up there with Activision due to their policies of encouraging their homophobic community and wanting to just ruin gaming for the consumers. THQ may only fall under one of those, but considering their games are largely shit to begin with, I won't miss them.
Main issue I have with Volition design director Jameson Durall's argument it fails to mention that if people don't see the value in the games retail price it doesn't sell. Many games in this generation of consoles have been worth there MSRP. Some games at $60 if there MSRP was lower and matched the real value of the game it would sell better and might even get a better review. At $60 the game needs to be a great execution of an idea, a complete experience, and bug free. For games that fail to meet those goals of a $60 price should consider cutting there losses or start the MSRP much lower.
You know as i grow older i realize that i can do without the amount of gaming i do. And i know how petulant i sound but everything has a breaking point.
While i dont belive that the machine itself wont have this measure but who is to know when a publisher will start to impliment something like this directly into their games (locking games to a single consol perhaps, turning games into a bind on equipt item.
)
While i dont belive that the machine itself wont have this measure but who is to know when a publisher will start to impliment something like this directly into their games (locking games to a single consol perhaps, turning games into a bind on equipt item.
)
MS better not include this "no used game crap" with their next console, if so it will be no different than PC gaming, which MS does.
Coming from MS I don't find the idea to far fetched.
Coming from MS I don't find the idea to far fetched.
@Orion456
Because they already sort a got a cut on THE FIRST SALE ..... and like everyone else under the sun, that's all they're entitled to.
but if you think they should next time you go buy a sandwich maybe you should send some money to the company that made the bread or the cheese because they apparently deserve additional profits from that secondhand sale of their goods.
I keep hearing devs/pubs bitching about how used games are somehow sucking the very marrow from their bones.... but they never seem to want to put the effort into it to solve the root of the problem.
Instead you get hamfisted DLC/DRM and contrived almost Machiavellian schemes to undermine the used market, while simultaneously dodging the core issues that drive that market they so despise.
Because they already sort a got a cut on THE FIRST SALE ..... and like everyone else under the sun, that's all they're entitled to.
but if you think they should next time you go buy a sandwich maybe you should send some money to the company that made the bread or the cheese because they apparently deserve additional profits from that secondhand sale of their goods.
I keep hearing devs/pubs bitching about how used games are somehow sucking the very marrow from their bones.... but they never seem to want to put the effort into it to solve the root of the problem.
Instead you get hamfisted DLC/DRM and contrived almost Machiavellian schemes to undermine the used market, while simultaneously dodging the core issues that drive that market they so despise.
@ EKGProd
i heard portal 2 sold better on PC than consoles. mostly that's not the case though, but it's not because of piracy, it's because console gaming is cheaper (at least in the minds of most gamers) and more convenient than PC gaming.
the more restrictive crap the console manufacturers shove into the next gen hardware, the less convenient console gaming will become, and the barriers to entry of PC gaming will seem so much lower that i imagine many will happily jump ship.
i heard portal 2 sold better on PC than consoles. mostly that's not the case though, but it's not because of piracy, it's because console gaming is cheaper (at least in the minds of most gamers) and more convenient than PC gaming.
the more restrictive crap the console manufacturers shove into the next gen hardware, the less convenient console gaming will become, and the barriers to entry of PC gaming will seem so much lower that i imagine many will happily jump ship.
Oh so lending games could be like lending kindle books... cool.
What about the fact that in order to get that concession, Amazon had to give publishers a kill switch for it, and in fact the majority of mainstream books are NOT lendable? (and the ones that are.. only lendable for fixed periods and only once)
What about the fact that in order to get that concession, Amazon had to give publishers a kill switch for it, and in fact the majority of mainstream books are NOT lendable? (and the ones that are.. only lendable for fixed periods and only once)
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