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Torture in WoW Lich King quest causes controversy for old school game dev photo

Famed co-author of the Multi-User-Dungeon and MMO pioneer Richard Bartle is getting his knickers in a twist thanks to a mission in the latest World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King. Bartle recently discovered a mission in which a character is tortured for information, and he is highly offended.

Basically, you have to take some kind of cow poke and zap a prisoner until he talks.

I'm not at all happy with this. I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner, but there didn't seem to be any way to do that. Worse, the quest is part of a chain you need to complete to gain access to the Nexus, which is the first instance you encounter (if you start on the west of the continent, as I did). So, either you play along and zap the guy, or you don't get to go to the Nexus.

I did zap him, pretty well in disbelief — I thought that surely the quest-giver would step in and stop it at some point? It didn't happen, though. Unless there's some kind of awful consequence further down the line, it would seem that Blizzard's designers are OK with breaking the Geneva convention.

Jesus, calm down Dicky, it's only a game. 

Bartle is famous for not having fun when he plays MMOs, something he attributes to his being a designer. It should be no surprise, then, that he's throwing a wobbler over Blizzard apparently "breaking the Geneva convention." Come on though ... lighten up. Lich King is not the first game where you rough up a character for information, and won't be the last. I doubt Blizzard was laughing at Iraqi prisoners or anything when it designed the quest, either. 

Next up, how killing boars in Warcraft promotes animal cruelty.


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38 comments | showing # 1 to 38

killias2's Avatar
killias2 at 12/09/2008 16:11
The repeated slaughter of your supposed enemies is okay though, right?
silvain's Avatar
silvain at 12/09/2008 16:14
Yeah, it's poor form to not give another way out of the quest, if it's as central as the guy seems to think. It is sloppy design making all characters do something that some would have very strong feelings about avoiding. Not so good for enjoyment, immersion, and identification with their character.

At the same time, it's certainly an appropriate option to have in a quest.
JamnOnTheOne's Avatar
JamnOnTheOne at 12/09/2008 16:15
He's already posted responses about 3 weeks ago, since it took some time for the media to pick up on the story

http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2008/QBlog261108A.html
Kurapica's Avatar
Kurapica at 12/09/2008 16:15
Ah, Geneva, the town west of Booty Bay
Zantetsuken's Avatar
Zantetsuken at 12/09/2008 16:20
I think that Blizzard should have included an option to refuse to torture the guy, at least to better reflect the morality of the player rather than forcing them to torture them.

Jim, I understand your point that it is only a game, but I think that most people would be morally against torture (sort of like feeling bad for selling people into slavery in Fallout 3).

But then again, I don't play WoW (or any memorpegers for that matter) so what do I know
radio babylon's Avatar
radio babylon at 12/09/2008 16:25
seems to me like he DID have an option to not torture the guy. he could choose to either torture him and progress, or not.

welcome to life, its full of unpleasant choices and undesirable consequences.
sexycommando's Avatar
sexycommando at 12/09/2008 16:26
If you don't want to torture people, don't play a Death Knight. WoW isn't forcing you to play Death Knight.

And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies.
Stephen57's Avatar
Stephen57 at 12/09/2008 16:29
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but if he's talking about the part I'm thinking of, then if you refuse the torture, that completely destroys the point of your character. The idea is that you're a terrible person at that point in the game. You're under the control of some giant evil badass, forcing you to kill people, and they scream about their families as you kill them, and then it makes you kill one of your friends from a past life, but enough about i have no life and play WoW. The point is that you have to be an evil person in that part of the game, without a choice at that point, or your character and story make no sense. He may as well complain about that one part of Bioshock that I won't state just cause SOMEBODY might not have played it yet.
NotAZombie's Avatar
NotAZombie at 12/09/2008 16:37
@ Stephen57

You nailed it. Discussion over.
nebben's Avatar
nebben at 12/09/2008 16:37
To clear up a few inevitable misconceptions here:

1) This quest has NOTHING to do with the death knight opening chain. THAT quest is where you beat some guy senseless with some hot pokers, who can (and does) fight back. This is a different quest located in Borean Tundra that anyone can do.

2) He was dead wrong on all fronts when he said you can't progress without doing this quest.

You can:
A) Get to the instance without doing the quest.
B) Enter the instance without doing this quest.
C) Complete all aspects of the instance without doing this quest.
D) Participate in, and receive rewards from, all quests associated with the instance without doing this quest.

This brought on a bunch of nonsensical controversy and was based entirely on erroneous facts from the beginning.

Just wanted to clear that up before this went much further :)
yutt's Avatar
yutt at 12/09/2008 16:41
Richard Bartle apparently judges every objective of every game he plays by real world ethical standards? That seems remarkably pointless and unenjoyable.

"And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies."

Citation? There have been numerous examples by professional interrogators that torture *does not* work. Victims of torture, whether they know anything or not, tell the torturer whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make it stop.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture." - Henry Kolm, U.S. interrogator of Rudolf Hess during WW2.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone. We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity." - George Frenkel, U.S. WW2 veteran and interrogator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvsvO9kvSdo

Given that you're a bloodthirsty moron, I doubt this will have any impact on your opinion.
ajay42's Avatar
ajay42 at 12/09/2008 16:47
i think there are a lot of valid points being discussed here. however until people stop saying things like this "Jesus, calm down Dicky, it's only a game." people will never take games seriously as an artistic medium and with good reason.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar
Mxyzptlk at 12/09/2008 16:53
nebben beat me to it, and I don't even play the damn game. All it took was doing five minutes of research to find out all that information.

Reading Bartle's follow up responses, I still feel he's being ridiculous. It's an optional quest chain. It does not mean that Blizzard condones torture. And some of the early Alliance quests at the very beginning of the game were extremely dark, especially compared to the Horde side.
nebben's Avatar
nebben at 12/09/2008 16:54
Also, if he wants to get worked up over a quest, the one he SHOULD be upset about is in the DK chain where you have to kill an NPC that remembers you from childhood, or at least before you became a death knight. That one you don't have any option but to kill the poor guy, although he ends up requesting you to so you don't both get killed.
sexycommando's Avatar
sexycommando at 12/09/2008 16:55
@yutt

First, chill out I was half-joking.

Second, just to make a point, you're citations never say that torture doesn't work. They just say there are better methods of interrogation than physical torture.
Husky Hog's Avatar
Husky Hog at 12/09/2008 17:32
I guess he totally missed the quest in the Frozen Tundra where you have to do the same exact thing (blizzard has never been a fan of only doing something once)... that's the one I was thinking, totally forgot about this one.
David Quinn Carder's Avatar
David Quinn Carder at 12/09/2008 17:35
There was already torture in WoW. Hasn't anyone visited the alchemist wing of the Undercity? And no, you can't do anything about it.

There are also plenty of things you do in WoW that represent very awful things to do in real-life, not to mention implausible things, unrealistic things, et cetera. I am all for games being taken seriously, but not all games. They need to earn that status by taking themselves seriously, and obviously WoW doesn't.

How simplistic are someone's ethics when it's only hot-topic things like torture that register on their moral radar?
Dexter345's Avatar
Dexter345 at 12/09/2008 17:39
In BC:Rearmed, you have to torture a prisoner to progress through the game. I didn't give it a second thought.
Leathersoup's Avatar
Leathersoup at 12/09/2008 17:40
It is quite hypocritical for Mr. Bartle to raise an issue with this particular part of the game. He states that torture is fine but doesn't have an issue with the continued killing of creatures/humanoids in any other part of the game.
One of the first things you do in any of the newbie zones is slaughter humanoids that show no outward aggression to you. In the Human area it's the Kobolds, the Dwarf/Gnome area it's the Troggs, in the Dark Elf area it's the imp creatures.
In general in our society today this sort of behaviour is also frowned upon but he doesn't seem to mention that at all.
b33b3s's Avatar
b33b3s at 12/09/2008 17:44
WoW, coming up with compelling plots since... wait a minute... wtf?
Clbull's Avatar
Clbull at 12/09/2008 18:01
I only noticed one "torture" quest and thats beating a guy around with two interrogation weapons you get for the quest, until hes at very low health, in which case he'll talk.

As for this one thats in the Nexus, No, I wasn't required to do it to enter. Hell, I ran the whole Nexus instance with no need to do a quest.
Holyetheline's Avatar
Holyetheline at 12/09/2008 18:10
Oblivion has a moment like this. Remember the Fighters guild quest line? Things like this pop up in games all the time. I don't see the big deal.
CALkulon's Avatar
CALkulon at 12/09/2008 18:16
See Yahtzee's latest comments on idiots who demand nothing but realism from games, for me this guy is in the same camp. Games are games, not reality, stop being a fucktard.
Agent Orange's Avatar
Agent Orange at 12/09/2008 18:22
I didn't know the Lich King was a signer at the Geneva Convention. Craziness...
Chronic Logic's Avatar
Chronic Logic at 12/09/2008 18:35
COMMITING GENOCIDE, ON A GLOBAL SCALE IS ALL FINE AND DANDY, BUT TORTURING SOMEONE IS WRONG?!
aZZmodan's Avatar
aZZmodan at 12/09/2008 19:09
Mmmm... Does that mean that aside from the fact that you can be an undead overlord (which is the whole point) and lay waste to continents, the game lets you torture people as well?

Diabolical...
cryocide's Avatar
cryocide at 12/09/2008 19:26
I don't recall Malygos agreeing to the Geneva Convention either. He did, however, force a certain female red dragon to be his consort against her will.

As a side note, I'm sure Richard Bartle wishes he was still relevant.
Superfluous Moniker's Avatar
Superfluous Moniker at 12/09/2008 19:35
@ajay
What are you, an advocate of Newspeak? "It's just a game" is a common turn of phrase, as it has been said about sports, card games, etc probably since the dawn of the English language. Some have even been heard to utter things like "It's just a movie," to frightened theatergoers, though I'm unsure of the phrase's impact on the Cannes film festivals and such.

Who cares what anyone else thinks is or is not art anyway? It's all subjective.
bluemeep's Avatar
bluemeep at 12/09/2008 20:02
So, hey, does anybody else remember, oh, roughly 95% of the Forsaken quests?
F Whipple's Avatar
F Whipple at 12/09/2008 20:16
someone has their panties in a bunch
dgonchild's Avatar
dgonchild at 12/09/2008 20:48
That guy's wrong anyway, you dont have to complete that quest to do the Nexus. There's no quest requirement, you just zone in.
jeffk6's Avatar
jeffk6 at 12/09/2008 22:17
is he talking about the death knight quest where you have those 2 pokers lol
Mentok the Mindtaker's Avatar
Mentok the Mindtaker at 12/10/2008 00:18
OMFG are you serious...

"I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner"

ITS CALLED ABANDONING THE QUEST!
Ronsauce's Avatar
Ronsauce at 12/10/2008 00:45
@yutt:

Tell that to Jack Bauer.
Bringer of Death's Avatar
Bringer of Death at 12/10/2008 01:53
My guess is that he doesn't see torturing as "heroic." We can assume he like slaughtering the opposite faction, and there is much glory in that to be had in WoW. Glory in torturing, though? We've had experience with a torturer in WoW before, the minor boss from Scarlet Monastary - A bad guy. Maybe he sees himself as the bad guy for doing that as a result.
Morrius's Avatar
Morrius at 12/10/2008 04:22
I'm surprised he got that far, lich king is dull as fuck.
Riposte's Avatar
Riposte at 12/10/2008 04:29
The guy's right. So much for being a role-playing game? Maybe he hopes one day MMORPGs will actually live up to their name. Right now Final Fantasy has more freedom than MMOs really.
TrailerParkJesus's Avatar
TrailerParkJesus at 12/10/2008 19:58
dumbass confusing it with real life lol
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