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Torture in WoW Lich King quest causes controversy for old school game dev photo

Famed co-author of the Multi-User-Dungeon and MMO pioneer Richard Bartle is getting his knickers in a twist thanks to a mission in the latest World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King. Bartle recently discovered a mission in which a character is tortured for information, and he is highly offended.

Basically, you have to take some kind of cow poke and zap a prisoner until he talks.

I'm not at all happy with this. I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner, but there didn't seem to be any way to do that. Worse, the quest is part of a chain you need to complete to gain access to the Nexus, which is the first instance you encounter (if you start on the west of the continent, as I did). So, either you play along and zap the guy, or you don't get to go to the Nexus.

I did zap him, pretty well in disbelief — I thought that surely the quest-giver would step in and stop it at some point? It didn't happen, though. Unless there's some kind of awful consequence further down the line, it would seem that Blizzard's designers are OK with breaking the Geneva convention.

Jesus, calm down Dicky, it's only a game. 

Bartle is famous for not having fun when he plays MMOs, something he attributes to his being a designer. It should be no surprise, then, that he's throwing a wobbler over Blizzard apparently "breaking the Geneva convention." Come on though ... lighten up. Lich King is not the first game where you rough up a character for information, and won't be the last. I doubt Blizzard was laughing at Iraqi prisoners or anything when it designed the quest, either. 

Next up, how killing boars in Warcraft promotes animal cruelty.


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38 comments | showing # 1 to 38

killias2's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:11
killias2
The repeated slaughter of your supposed enemies is okay though, right?
silvain's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:14
silvain
Yeah, it's poor form to not give another way out of the quest, if it's as central as the guy seems to think. It is sloppy design making all characters do something that some would have very strong feelings about avoiding. Not so good for enjoyment, immersion, and identification with their character.

At the same time, it's certainly an appropriate option to have in a quest.
JamnOnTheOne's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:15
JamnOnTheOne
He's already posted responses about 3 weeks ago, since it took some time for the media to pick up on the story

http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2008/QBlog261108A.html
Kurapica's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:15
Kurapica
Ah, Geneva, the town west of Booty Bay
Zantetsuken's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:20
Zantetsuken
I think that Blizzard should have included an option to refuse to torture the guy, at least to better reflect the morality of the player rather than forcing them to torture them.

Jim, I understand your point that it is only a game, but I think that most people would be morally against torture (sort of like feeling bad for selling people into slavery in Fallout 3).

But then again, I don't play WoW (or any memorpegers for that matter) so what do I know
radio babylon's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:25
radio babylon
seems to me like he DID have an option to not torture the guy. he could choose to either torture him and progress, or not.

welcome to life, its full of unpleasant choices and undesirable consequences.
sexycommando's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:26
sexycommando
If you don't want to torture people, don't play a Death Knight. WoW isn't forcing you to play Death Knight.

And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies.
Stephen57's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:29
Stephen57
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but if he's talking about the part I'm thinking of, then if you refuse the torture, that completely destroys the point of your character. The idea is that you're a terrible person at that point in the game. You're under the control of some giant evil badass, forcing you to kill people, and they scream about their families as you kill them, and then it makes you kill one of your friends from a past life, but enough about i have no life and play WoW. The point is that you have to be an evil person in that part of the game, without a choice at that point, or your character and story make no sense. He may as well complain about that one part of Bioshock that I won't state just cause SOMEBODY might not have played it yet.
NotAZombie's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:37
NotAZombie
@ Stephen57

You nailed it. Discussion over.
nebben's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:37
nebben
To clear up a few inevitable misconceptions here:

1) This quest has NOTHING to do with the death knight opening chain. THAT quest is where you beat some guy senseless with some hot pokers, who can (and does) fight back. This is a different quest located in Borean Tundra that anyone can do.

2) He was dead wrong on all fronts when he said you can't progress without doing this quest.

You can:
A) Get to the instance without doing the quest.
B) Enter the instance without doing this quest.
C) Complete all aspects of the instance without doing this quest.
D) Participate in, and receive rewards from, all quests associated with the instance without doing this quest.

This brought on a bunch of nonsensical controversy and was based entirely on erroneous facts from the beginning.

Just wanted to clear that up before this went much further :)
yutt's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:41
yutt
Richard Bartle apparently judges every objective of every game he plays by real world ethical standards? That seems remarkably pointless and unenjoyable.

"And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies."

Citation? There have been numerous examples by professional interrogators that torture *does not* work. Victims of torture, whether they know anything or not, tell the torturer whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make it stop.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture." - Henry Kolm, U.S. interrogator of Rudolf Hess during WW2.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone. We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity." - George Frenkel, U.S. WW2 veteran and interrogator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvsvO9kvSdo

Given that you're a bloodthirsty moron, I doubt this will have any impact on your opinion.
ajay42's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:47
ajay42
i think there are a lot of valid points being discussed here. however until people stop saying things like this "Jesus, calm down Dicky, it's only a game." people will never take games seriously as an artistic medium and with good reason.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:53
Mxyzptlk
nebben beat me to it, and I don't even play the damn game. All it took was doing five minutes of research to find out all that information.

Reading Bartle's follow up responses, I still feel he's being ridiculous. It's an optional quest chain. It does not mean that Blizzard condones torture. And some of the early Alliance quests at the very beginning of the game were extremely dark, especially compared to the Horde side.
nebben's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:54
nebben
Also, if he wants to get worked up over a quest, the one he SHOULD be upset about is in the DK chain where you have to kill an NPC that remembers you from childhood, or at least before you became a death knight. That one you don't have any option but to kill the poor guy, although he ends up requesting you to so you don't both get killed.
sexycommando's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 16:55
sexycommando
@yutt

First, chill out I was half-joking.

Second, just to make a point, you're citations never say that torture doesn't work. They just say there are better methods of interrogation than physical torture.
Husky Hog's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 17:32
Husky Hog
I guess he totally missed the quest in the Frozen Tundra where you have to do the same exact thing (blizzard has never been a fan of only doing something once)... that's the one I was thinking, totally forgot about this one.
David Quinn Carder's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 17:35
David Quinn Carder
There was already torture in WoW. Hasn't anyone visited the alchemist wing of the Undercity? And no, you can't do anything about it.

There are also plenty of things you do in WoW that represent very awful things to do in real-life, not to mention implausible things, unrealistic things, et cetera. I am all for games being taken seriously, but not all games. They need to earn that status by taking themselves seriously, and obviously WoW doesn't.

How simplistic are someone's ethics when it's only hot-topic things like torture that register on their moral radar?
Dexter345's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 17:39
Dexter345
In BC:Rearmed, you have to torture a prisoner to progress through the game. I didn't give it a second thought.
Leathersoup's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 17:40
Leathersoup
It is quite hypocritical for Mr. Bartle to raise an issue with this particular part of the game. He states that torture is fine but doesn't have an issue with the continued killing of creatures/humanoids in any other part of the game.
One of the first things you do in any of the newbie zones is slaughter humanoids that show no outward aggression to you. In the Human area it's the Kobolds, the Dwarf/Gnome area it's the Troggs, in the Dark Elf area it's the imp creatures.
In general in our society today this sort of behaviour is also frowned upon but he doesn't seem to mention that at all.
b33b3s's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 17:44
b33b3s
WoW, coming up with compelling plots since... wait a minute... wtf?
Clbull's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 18:01
Clbull
I only noticed one "torture" quest and thats beating a guy around with two interrogation weapons you get for the quest, until hes at very low health, in which case he'll talk.

As for this one thats in the Nexus, No, I wasn't required to do it to enter. Hell, I ran the whole Nexus instance with no need to do a quest.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 18:10
Holyetheline
Oblivion has a moment like this. Remember the Fighters guild quest line? Things like this pop up in games all the time. I don't see the big deal.
CALkulon's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 18:16
CALkulon
See Yahtzee's latest comments on idiots who demand nothing but realism from games, for me this guy is in the same camp. Games are games, not reality, stop being a fucktard.
Agent Orange's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 18:22
Agent Orange
I didn't know the Lich King was a signer at the Geneva Convention. Craziness...
Chronic Logic's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 18:35
Chronic Logic
COMMITING GENOCIDE, ON A GLOBAL SCALE IS ALL FINE AND DANDY, BUT TORTURING SOMEONE IS WRONG?!
aZZmodan's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 19:09
aZZmodan
Mmmm... Does that mean that aside from the fact that you can be an undead overlord (which is the whole point) and lay waste to continents, the game lets you torture people as well?

Diabolical...
cryocide's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 19:26
cryocide
I don't recall Malygos agreeing to the Geneva Convention either. He did, however, force a certain female red dragon to be his consort against her will.

As a side note, I'm sure Richard Bartle wishes he was still relevant.
Superfluous Moniker's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 19:35
Superfluous Moniker
@ajay
What are you, an advocate of Newspeak? "It's just a game" is a common turn of phrase, as it has been said about sports, card games, etc probably since the dawn of the English language. Some have even been heard to utter things like "It's just a movie," to frightened theatergoers, though I'm unsure of the phrase's impact on the Cannes film festivals and such.

Who cares what anyone else thinks is or is not art anyway? It's all subjective.
bluemeep's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 20:02
bluemeep
So, hey, does anybody else remember, oh, roughly 95% of the Forsaken quests?
F Whipple's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 20:16
F Whipple
someone has their panties in a bunch
dgonchild's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 20:48
dgonchild
That guy's wrong anyway, you dont have to complete that quest to do the Nexus. There's no quest requirement, you just zone in.
jeffk6's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/09/2008 22:17
jeffk6
is he talking about the death knight quest where you have those 2 pokers lol
Mentok the Mindtaker's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 00:18
Mentok the Mindtaker
OMFG are you serious...

"I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner"

ITS CALLED ABANDONING THE QUEST!
Ronsauce's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 00:45
Ronsauce
@yutt:

Tell that to Jack Bauer.
Bringer of Death's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 01:53
Bringer of Death
My guess is that he doesn't see torturing as "heroic." We can assume he like slaughtering the opposite faction, and there is much glory in that to be had in WoW. Glory in torturing, though? We've had experience with a torturer in WoW before, the minor boss from Scarlet Monastary - A bad guy. Maybe he sees himself as the bad guy for doing that as a result.
Morrius's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 04:22
Morrius
I'm surprised he got that far, lich king is dull as fuck.
Riposte's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 04:29
Riposte
The guy's right. So much for being a role-playing game? Maybe he hopes one day MMORPGs will actually live up to their name. Right now Final Fantasy has more freedom than MMOs really.
TrailerParkJesus's Avatar - Comment posted on 12/10/2008 19:58
TrailerParkJesus
dumbass confusing it with real life lol
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