Famed co-author of the Multi-User-Dungeon and MMO pioneer Richard Bartle is getting his knickers in a twist thanks to a mission in the latest World of Warcraft expansion, Wrath of the Lich King. Bartle recently discovered a mission in which a character is tortured for information, and he is highly offended.
Basically, you have to take some kind of cow poke and zap a prisoner until he talks.
I'm not at all happy with this. I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner, but there didn't seem to be any way to do that. Worse, the quest is part of a chain you need to complete to gain access to the Nexus, which is the first instance you encounter (if you start on the west of the continent, as I did). So, either you play along and zap the guy, or you don't get to go to the Nexus.
I did zap him, pretty well in disbelief — I thought that surely the quest-giver would step in and stop it at some point? It didn't happen, though. Unless there's some kind of awful consequence further down the line, it would seem that Blizzard's designers are OK with breaking the Geneva convention.
Jesus, calm down Dicky, it's only a game.
Bartle is famous for not having fun when he plays MMOs, something he attributes to his being a designer. It should be no surprise, then, that he's throwing a wobbler over Blizzard apparently "breaking the Geneva convention." Come on though ... lighten up. Lich King is not the first game where you rough up a character for information, and won't be the last. I doubt Blizzard was laughing at Iraqi prisoners or anything when it designed the quest, either.
Next up, how killing boars in Warcraft promotes animal cruelty.
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Contest:
3:59 PM on 12.09.2008
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At the same time, it's certainly an appropriate option to have in a quest.
http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2008/QBlog261108A.html
Jim, I understand your point that it is only a game, but I think that most people would be morally against torture (sort of like feeling bad for selling people into slavery in Fallout 3).
But then again, I don't play WoW (or any memorpegers for that matter) so what do I know
welcome to life, its full of unpleasant choices and undesirable consequences.
And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies.
You nailed it. Discussion over.
1) This quest has NOTHING to do with the death knight opening chain. THAT quest is where you beat some guy senseless with some hot pokers, who can (and does) fight back. This is a different quest located in Borean Tundra that anyone can do.
2) He was dead wrong on all fronts when he said you can't progress without doing this quest.
You can:
A) Get to the instance without doing the quest.
B) Enter the instance without doing this quest.
C) Complete all aspects of the instance without doing this quest.
D) Participate in, and receive rewards from, all quests associated with the instance without doing this quest.
This brought on a bunch of nonsensical controversy and was based entirely on erroneous facts from the beginning.
Just wanted to clear that up before this went much further :)
"And torture works, whether you like it or not. Pussies."
Citation? There have been numerous examples by professional interrogators that torture *does not* work. Victims of torture, whether they know anything or not, tell the torturer whatever they think the torturer wants to hear to make it stop.
"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture." - Henry Kolm, U.S. interrogator of Rudolf Hess during WW2.
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone. We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity." - George Frenkel, U.S. WW2 veteran and interrogator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvsvO9kvSdo
Given that you're a bloodthirsty moron, I doubt this will have any impact on your opinion.
Reading Bartle's follow up responses, I still feel he's being ridiculous. It's an optional quest chain. It does not mean that Blizzard condones torture. And some of the early Alliance quests at the very beginning of the game were extremely dark, especially compared to the Horde side.
First, chill out I was half-joking.
Second, just to make a point, you're citations never say that torture doesn't work. They just say there are better methods of interrogation than physical torture.
One of the first things you do in any of the newbie zones is slaughter humanoids that show no outward aggression to you. In the Human area it's the Kobolds, the Dwarf/Gnome area it's the Troggs, in the Dark Elf area it's the imp creatures.
In general in our society today this sort of behaviour is also frowned upon but he doesn't seem to mention that at all.
As for this one thats in the Nexus, No, I wasn't required to do it to enter. Hell, I ran the whole Nexus instance with no need to do a quest.
Diabolical...
As a side note, I'm sure Richard Bartle wishes he was still relevant.
What are you, an advocate of Newspeak? "It's just a game" is a common turn of phrase, as it has been said about sports, card games, etc probably since the dawn of the English language. Some have even been heard to utter things like "It's just a movie," to frightened theatergoers, though I'm unsure of the phrase's impact on the Cannes film festivals and such.
Who cares what anyone else thinks is or is not art anyway? It's all subjective.
"I was expecting for there to be some way to tell the guy who gave you the quest that no, actually I don't want to torture a prisoner"
ITS CALLED ABANDONING THE QUEST!
Tell that to Jack Bauer.