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You said that they threatened "legal action."
Question: What kind of legal action can you take against somebody for not liking your game? Seriously, please tell me.
Question: What kind of legal action can you take against somebody for not liking your game? Seriously, please tell me.
Wow, somebody got on their high horse rather fast. You'd think after making a game that was almost unanimously considered shit (Two Worlds 1) they'd have some humility, but nope, make one decent to good game and they start acting like stupid pretentious little pricks. Of course I'm assuming they have been blacklisting, but the evidence seems to point in that direction
@Rexwolf2
Legal action? I don't know but it sounds like TopWare might kick sand in their face, pull their hair and RUN!
Legal action? I don't know but it sounds like TopWare might kick sand in their face, pull their hair and RUN!
Er...one of those emails says that "this one has sold over 2 million units to date"
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? SHUT UP!
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? SHUT UP!
I like to imagine a world where game developers grow some balls, and let their games stand on their own merits, good or bad.
They can do something far more dastardly than call a lawyer. They will just pull their marketing dollars and give them to someone who "appreciates" them better. Ubisoft did this just last year or the year before with gameinformer I think it was? These people are paid in whole by the very people whose products they are supposed to be objective about.
I'm enjoying the game, but I have absolutely no respect for Topware... not after the debacle of delaying the game for marketing reasons and trying to say the devs were still working on the game. They eventually retracted and confirmed that the game had in fact gone gold, it was "done" and the delay was in fact strictly for marketing reasons.
Finished the game today. It's a solid 6, not great but not terrible. The final boss battle was stupid.
It's a good game and I am enjoying it a lot, but that's a stupid thing to do on Topware's part, assuming it is true. All it does is hurt your credibility.
I will admit that they MIGHT have a point in that the general public doesn't think of a 5/10 as Average. Most of us probably think of review scores in the context of grades we received in school and, for me at least, a 70/100 was the bare minimum you needed to pass. Anything below that is failing, and thus a game rated lower than that (or the equivalent on a 1-10 scale) is a failure.
As much as we may complain about it, people do put a LOT of faith in review scores without really doing much research on what that score means or often without even reading the associated review. Hell, I'm guilty of it myself from time to time.
I certainly understand the mentality behind a 5 being average. Roughly as many games that are better as games that are worse is, by definition, average. But again, perception = reality, and a 5 very well could be perceived as well below average.
As much as we may complain about it, people do put a LOT of faith in review scores without really doing much research on what that score means or often without even reading the associated review. Hell, I'm guilty of it myself from time to time.
I certainly understand the mentality behind a 5 being average. Roughly as many games that are better as games that are worse is, by definition, average. But again, perception = reality, and a 5 very well could be perceived as well below average.
Its not the general public. Its metacritic. If the site is listed and part of the calculation, you bet the publisher would like a 7 instead of a 5.
It always did seem strange that on a 10 point scale there are 5 different grades of fail. But sometimes, once in awhile, you'll need to pull out those 1s or 2s to fully express how bad something is. Their concern that a 5 out of 10 being an "average" is non-standard, that's a valid concern. And personally don't see any problem with pulling ads from a publication if it says something they don't like about their game. They won't be awarded any style point, and it might be self defeating if fewer ads sell fewer copies of the game, but I support their right to conduct their business practices as they please.
@Tristix
Good points, but a review is a review and the devs can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to change it, regardless of whether the score was fair or not. If was truly a game that deserved a good score, then it will get that score.
Topware, if your game is bad, please don't waste energy on trying to change reviews. All it does is generate a lot of attention, the bad kind. Instead, try to change the quality of your game. That said, I liked Two Worlds II.
Good points, but a review is a review and the devs can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to change it, regardless of whether the score was fair or not. If was truly a game that deserved a good score, then it will get that score.
Topware, if your game is bad, please don't waste energy on trying to change reviews. All it does is generate a lot of attention, the bad kind. Instead, try to change the quality of your game. That said, I liked Two Worlds II.
@Max Fresen: That's a really great question. I mean, who really loses anything if TOPWARE (LOL) blacklists your site? I mean, really? Oh no! If I ran a site, I would blacklist them just for even bringing that shit up.
"2011 - Two Worlds 2, PC, 360, PS3
2007 - UFO Afterlight, PC
2007 - Two Worlds, PC, 360
2005 - Chrome SpecForce, PC
2005 - Earth 2160, PC
1998 - Emergency 1
1997 - Earth 2140, PC
1996 - Das Schwarze Auge: Schatten über Riva, MS-DOS"
Honestly, you guys should just go ahead and blacklist them now just because. I promise, no one will even notice.
"2011 - Two Worlds 2, PC, 360, PS3
2007 - UFO Afterlight, PC
2007 - Two Worlds, PC, 360
2005 - Chrome SpecForce, PC
2005 - Earth 2160, PC
1998 - Emergency 1
1997 - Earth 2140, PC
1996 - Das Schwarze Auge: Schatten über Riva, MS-DOS"
Honestly, you guys should just go ahead and blacklist them now just because. I promise, no one will even notice.
I was just about to buy this game when I came back from a business trip early next week - now I'll pass. Too bad because I think they made great improvements in the game ad I'd like to try it but I'm not giving my money to companies that deal like this.
It's not just about a 5 or a 7 score, or even being black listed. Regardless of industry standards (5 vs 7), a company should not be unprofessional in how they decide to respond to something. The most concerning part about this is how TopWare decided to handle the situation, this is why this whole thing made news. This is not good business practice, and really is a shame that yet again something negative happened in the gaming industry.
This situation was handled very poorly, and very unprofessionally. Companies that give out review codes of games to be reviewed, take the chance of an unfavorable score. Or really just games in general, you put a game out, someone playing it that's on a gaming site will probably post things that they don't like. That's part of the business. There are no guarantees of what will be posted for a review, but a company should not in any way make threats and basically black mail for better scores. Reviews are opinion pieces, everyone is entitled to post what they feel about a game, regardless if the company happened to give them a review code. It also doesn't mean a company needs to use that site again for any reason, but you don't go around questioning things and doing things like this in order to prove a point that only serves to make the company look even worse. Companies do not get to buy their review scores, or tell a reviewer what the standard is.
TopWare PR has a lot to learn about how to handle these types of things. Hopefully they can learn from the fiasco and do better in the future.
This situation was handled very poorly, and very unprofessionally. Companies that give out review codes of games to be reviewed, take the chance of an unfavorable score. Or really just games in general, you put a game out, someone playing it that's on a gaming site will probably post things that they don't like. That's part of the business. There are no guarantees of what will be posted for a review, but a company should not in any way make threats and basically black mail for better scores. Reviews are opinion pieces, everyone is entitled to post what they feel about a game, regardless if the company happened to give them a review code. It also doesn't mean a company needs to use that site again for any reason, but you don't go around questioning things and doing things like this in order to prove a point that only serves to make the company look even worse. Companies do not get to buy their review scores, or tell a reviewer what the standard is.
TopWare PR has a lot to learn about how to handle these types of things. Hopefully they can learn from the fiasco and do better in the future.
Hello this is James Seaman from Topware.
I can tell you right now that this is simply not true. This had everything with our PR team and a site having a discussion/arguement about their scoring system and not a score change. They feel that an average score for a game is a 5 and that seemed off base to our team since most real world average grades from 1-10 is a 7. There was never a time where they asked the score be bumped up! There was an apology issued by me for our team questioning their scoring system and not a scoring change.
We have accepted the good and the bad scores for our game and never engaged in trying to manufacture scores in any way shape or form. Your opinion is your opinion
The legal action thing was about we thought was a pirate Xbox copy of our game reviewed in the UK before the game had even come out for the US or UK and not the review. It was about piracy - the site told us that they received it from a Microsoft UK program and our Microsoft rep denied this at first and then realized a week later that the German version of the game was mistakenly given out to them. So they reviewed the wrong game but they were not reviewing a pirate copy so this was their opinion and we went our way. The problem was that Topware had given exclusives to other UK sites and that copy being out 2 months early was a shock to us.
I think, for us, the passion, has to be turned down a notch, but Topware respects the critics and this story is being blown out of proportion.
I can tell you right now that this is simply not true. This had everything with our PR team and a site having a discussion/arguement about their scoring system and not a score change. They feel that an average score for a game is a 5 and that seemed off base to our team since most real world average grades from 1-10 is a 7. There was never a time where they asked the score be bumped up! There was an apology issued by me for our team questioning their scoring system and not a scoring change.
We have accepted the good and the bad scores for our game and never engaged in trying to manufacture scores in any way shape or form. Your opinion is your opinion
The legal action thing was about we thought was a pirate Xbox copy of our game reviewed in the UK before the game had even come out for the US or UK and not the review. It was about piracy - the site told us that they received it from a Microsoft UK program and our Microsoft rep denied this at first and then realized a week later that the German version of the game was mistakenly given out to them. So they reviewed the wrong game but they were not reviewing a pirate copy so this was their opinion and we went our way. The problem was that Topware had given exclusives to other UK sites and that copy being out 2 months early was a shock to us.
I think, for us, the passion, has to be turned down a notch, but Topware respects the critics and this story is being blown out of proportion.
I was gonna check this game out eventually, but after hearing this, I'm not giving these whiners the time of day.
Well its obvious that European reviewers don't know a good game even if it slaps them in the face!!! Just take a look at Killzone 3's metacritic scores, the lowest scores are mostly given by European websites. What about the weekly UK charts that Jim be posting every week, its a fucking joke!!! As much as i believe that European reviewers are terrible at reviewing games or have horrible taste, There is still no excuse for these guys to bitch about their crappy game getting bad scores.
Oh I disagree, review sites like GT only reviewed chapter1 and I don't even know how far they did that because there were arguments about the characters feels underwhelming and there is no progression. Next thing was that the flamed the map, that it has no clear indications despite the fact that there's a fucking X if you track the quest. Such reviews are bullshit.
oh well, its not like they're crankin out games like rockstar, treyarch, platinum, kojima productions, level 5, ect have been. if they feel the need to blacklist companies just for the one they've released in 2-4 years, fuck em, its only gonna hurt them and their reputation.
just look at Seamen above, damage control out already. not that it matters.
just look at Seamen above, damage control out already. not that it matters.
Their is no excuse for our guy to go off on a site, but this has everything to do with MetaCritic and their standards and other sites and their standards.
They can be completely different and our PR person was not trying to change a score but trying to convey this very point. The words blacklisted, if they were said, at all, would not happen in any way shape or form.
We gave the game out to everyone and it was well receieved - well except for the UK were we average around 60 when everywhere else we average around 78, but such is life.
I have made games for a long time and our new team is really working hard to make the Two Worlds franchise something special. We do not have the budgets some studios have but we are and will continue to make great games from here on out.
By the way here is the URL with the story rebuttal but it is a mute point as this is all a caught up in the moment situation between two people and not a Topware conspiracy!
http://beefjack.com/news/topware-denies-blacklisting-allegations-more-info-leaks-in/
They can be completely different and our PR person was not trying to change a score but trying to convey this very point. The words blacklisted, if they were said, at all, would not happen in any way shape or form.
We gave the game out to everyone and it was well receieved - well except for the UK were we average around 60 when everywhere else we average around 78, but such is life.
I have made games for a long time and our new team is really working hard to make the Two Worlds franchise something special. We do not have the budgets some studios have but we are and will continue to make great games from here on out.
By the way here is the URL with the story rebuttal but it is a mute point as this is all a caught up in the moment situation between two people and not a Topware conspiracy!
http://beefjack.com/news/topware-denies-blacklisting-allegations-more-info-leaks-in/
@Jimmyz66
Hello, this is TSAVO from Destructoid.
I can tell you right now that this is simply not true. This had everything to do with your shit-bum development team. They feel that a quality game deserves a 7 or above and that seemed off base to me since most mediocre games, like Two Worlds 2 deserves a 5. There was never a time where they spent time playing the game!
I have accepted the good, and the mostly bad, components for your game and never was engaged in enjoying your game in any way shape or form. Your opinion is your opinion
I think, for me, the talent, has to be turned up a notch, but Topware disrespects the critics and didn't learn from their first failure.
Love,
TSAVO
Hello, this is TSAVO from Destructoid.
I can tell you right now that this is simply not true. This had everything to do with your shit-bum development team. They feel that a quality game deserves a 7 or above and that seemed off base to me since most mediocre games, like Two Worlds 2 deserves a 5. There was never a time where they spent time playing the game!
I have accepted the good, and the mostly bad, components for your game and never was engaged in enjoying your game in any way shape or form. Your opinion is your opinion
I think, for me, the talent, has to be turned up a notch, but Topware disrespects the critics and didn't learn from their first failure.
Love,
TSAVO
@Jimmyz66: "I think, for us, the passion, has to be turned down a notch"
I would say so. Oh well, you make mistakes, apologize and you learn.
"this story is being blown out of proportion."
That, I can believe.
I would say so. Oh well, you make mistakes, apologize and you learn.
"this story is being blown out of proportion."
That, I can believe.
Hey Tsavo, the actual issue was that site reviewed the game as an average game and did not really come down on it at all. They never mentioned the multi-player, but the issue for our PR guy was their scoring system and metacritics scoring system.
I appreciate your opinion and feel to message me off line as to what you think we need to improve on for our next game. Opinions from the actual players mean a lot to me.
We are trying to do a better job every time and have brought in a brand new 3D modeling, animation and CG team for the next Two Worlds game coming out in 2012.
I appreciate your opinion and feel to message me off line as to what you think we need to improve on for our next game. Opinions from the actual players mean a lot to me.
We are trying to do a better job every time and have brought in a brand new 3D modeling, animation and CG team for the next Two Worlds game coming out in 2012.
Jimmyz66 The game is an improvement over the first. I will give you that. Its an average game at best.
But you see your NA publisher has lost any respect among pcgamers for there delays and canceling the boxed pc release. Maybe in the future southpeak wont be your publisher but I doubt it.
But you see your NA publisher has lost any respect among pcgamers for there delays and canceling the boxed pc release. Maybe in the future southpeak wont be your publisher but I doubt it.
Lazyman the PC edition was not canceled. There have been issues with our publisher and the launch of the PC product into retail, but they will have a special edition out in a month at retail and the game is available via Amazon from them or us right now or on Steam or Direct2Drive
We also have the collectors edition on PC on Amazon
I appreciate the feedback, but there will be a special PC edition for the United States soon at retail
We also have the collectors edition on PC on Amazon
I appreciate the feedback, but there will be a special PC edition for the United States soon at retail
So Dtoid should not cover any Topware games, thus losing any traffic they would get from them and hurting the hardworking Devs who are innocent in this. No. The job of this game blog is to cover games. No matter how big or small. That's why most of us love this site.
I saw that but southpeak offered no comment or statement. Instead we had to pay more than what we pre-orderd if for on steam. Regardless I will still buy the next game in the series. hope everything gets settled soon seems to a one pr nightmare after another.
I actually think this is kind of unfair to Topware..
How much should the actions of an idiotic PR team that have most likely been seriously pulled into line, reflect on an entire developer? A developer is a lot more than their PR team and managers who often have nothing to do with making games..
That said, they need the heat to learn and change but it would be sad to see a permanent tarnishing of their rep unless 100% justified..
@Jim, they've made plenty of statements in response clarifying their position.. As a respected journalist the least you could is to edit their response into the article. Whether there is truth to it is beside the point.
To posters bashing topware's devs themselves and saying they'll avoid the game now (because after this mess up they instantly hate all of topware):
Do you think the developers themselves who put their time and effort into making the damn game share PR's views? blame management, blame ownership, blame PR, don't just bleat like sheep.
How much should the actions of an idiotic PR team that have most likely been seriously pulled into line, reflect on an entire developer? A developer is a lot more than their PR team and managers who often have nothing to do with making games..
That said, they need the heat to learn and change but it would be sad to see a permanent tarnishing of their rep unless 100% justified..
@Jim, they've made plenty of statements in response clarifying their position.. As a respected journalist the least you could is to edit their response into the article. Whether there is truth to it is beside the point.
To posters bashing topware's devs themselves and saying they'll avoid the game now (because after this mess up they instantly hate all of topware):
Do you think the developers themselves who put their time and effort into making the damn game share PR's views? blame management, blame ownership, blame PR, don't just bleat like sheep.
Has many people's perception of gaming review score system's become a 7 to 10 point scale? That's what I keep reading from some comments around the net. Apparently, seven is average and god forbid the game get a six.
Most people replying here already know what's up, they should be worrying about the quality of the game more than dealing with the people who shat on it.
Most people replying here already know what's up, they should be worrying about the quality of the game more than dealing with the people who shat on it.
This doesn't even make sense. If your game is truly bad or if someone believes it's bad and can back up their claim, then why blacklist it?
@jazzpanda
"As a respected journalist the least you could is to edit their response into the article. Whether there is truth to it is beside the point."
A respected journalist would post the statements after looking into whether they are true or not.
And anyway, why not post some of these statements yourself?
"As a respected journalist the least you could is to edit their response into the article. Whether there is truth to it is beside the point."
A respected journalist would post the statements after looking into whether they are true or not.
And anyway, why not post some of these statements yourself?
I was seriously considering picking TW2 up sometime this year while waiting for Skyrim because I heard it was pretty decent, but I think Im gona pass now.
jim, what's the deal with all these SEEREIUSS articles with a bitingly sarcastic last line? you should write more articles like that one about ekans! do it! or not. whatever.
Rest assured, journalism is happening as I type this.
Hearing some pretty interesting things.
I'll be back with more later. <3
Hearing some pretty interesting things.
I'll be back with more later. <3
Topware by no means is perfect and we have made mistakes, especially in the UK, which we inherited from South Peak just recently.
The actual person from the site in question has actually written me in an email that this is over and that we will all move in a positive direction
Since multiplayer was not covered in their initial review - we will be showing them the co-op mode with our team as it can be hit and miss with player quality.
They are also going to be and were going to be on our next press tour of the UK.
My team needs to take a step back as the UK has been pretty harsh on our game, but such is life.
I will make sure that nothing like this ever happens again, but some of my guys have put their heart and soul into this game and just need to take a step back.
For a smaller company it can be tough, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The actual person from the site in question has actually written me in an email that this is over and that we will all move in a positive direction
Since multiplayer was not covered in their initial review - we will be showing them the co-op mode with our team as it can be hit and miss with player quality.
They are also going to be and were going to be on our next press tour of the UK.
My team needs to take a step back as the UK has been pretty harsh on our game, but such is life.
I will make sure that nothing like this ever happens again, but some of my guys have put their heart and soul into this game and just need to take a step back.
For a smaller company it can be tough, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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