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ere

So, I'm reading Topher's Ikaruga review and the comments resulting from it. Other than the usual half-ironic cries of "biased!" and "Anthony would have given this a 4!", I saw many repetitions of one particular sentiment that I feel deserves further discussion: namely, that the 10/10 score should only be reserved for "perfect" games.

Now, I wrote the original articles which eventually formed much of the basis for Destructoid's current review system, and many of the comments in the Ikaruga review more or less echoed my thoughts on the 10/10 score back in 2007. 

It's now 2008, however, and I've come to understand that I was dead wrong. A 10/10 score should not mean perfect, because there's no such thing as a perfect game. As tiresome as I'm sure it is to have one of the reviewers bitch to the world through a frontpage post everytime someone misunderstands their review, an explanation of 10/10 nonetheless feels necessary to me.

Disagree? Hit the jump, and I'll try to convince you.  

No Country for Old Men: The scene with Ed Tom at the hotel at night is shot in a confusing, inefficient way that makes the whole moment far more esoteric and distancing than it was originally intended to be (the other character is supposed to be in the room across from the one Ed Tom is in).

Blade Runner: The romantic subplot doesn't quite feel legitimate, and the shot of Roy releasing the dove at the very end is incredibly contrived and contradicts the story's promise that all natural animals are pretty much extinct.

The Godfather: When Sonny is beating the crap out of Carlo, James Caan throws a really, really, really fake-looking punch that misses Carlo's face by at least three inches and the viewer is totally taken out of the experience.

Now, those are three of my favorite movies of all time. I think those films are some of the most brilliant, subtle, emotional works of art I've ever experienced, and I will defend their quality to the death against all comers.

But they are not perfect. They're the best examples of cinematic achivement I've yet witnessed, but all of them have numerous and readily-identifiable flaws. Does that make them any less wonderful? Does that mean The Godfather doesn't deserve a 10/10 score? Of course not.

Everything is flawed. Nothing is perfect. If The Godfather isn't a 10/10, what is? 

Now, extrapolate this way of thinking to videogames. Every single videogame you will ever play -- ever -- will be riddled with flaws of some sort or another. Fallout's skill system is totally unintuitive. Shadow of the Colossus had a crappy camera system. The main ship in Ikaruga is twice as big as its hit box.

None of us have ever or will ever play a truly perfect game, and anyone who says otherwise is simply ignoring a few flaws they don't find to be terribly relevant. Perfection is an ideal, never to be practically reached by any art form at any time. That's just the way it works.

With that in mind, why would you waste an entire point on the 1-10 grading scale by devoting it to something that can, by definition, never truly exist? Instead of calling 10/10 "perfect," why not just call it "will cure cancer"? They're both equally likely to happen within our lifetimes. To hold the 10/10 score back as an ideal for the perfect game, just in case it ever exists, is to degrade the entire 1-10 system into a 1-9.9 scale. 

Really, what good does it do a reader to see that a game rated 9.85/10, just because the camera isn't perfect? Are we truly improving the grading scale just by avoiding that elusive 10.0 at all costs, or are we just jerking off as we fantasize about an imaginary game which might one day come into existence and blow us all out of the water?* Who honestly cares about the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.9, especially when time and genre and context make it more or less impossible to reliable compare review scores against one another? 

This isn't to suggest that the 10/10 should be thrown around willy-nilly, of course. I still don't agree with Dan Hsu's 10 score for Gears of War based on his text, and I've only awarded a single 10/10 out of the dozens of games I've reviewed. A 10 should still stand for a game which is, as the Dtoid official guide says, "Incredible. As close to perfection as we've yet seen in in the genre or gaming on the whole. A polished, unparalleled experience."

It's something that should be given out relatively rarely, and only to those games which are truly deserving. It shouldn't be given out everytime the developer throws money at us, or just because it's part of a franchise that has previous garnered high scores. Yet it should also not be tucked away like some sort of emergency score, only to be used in case of the videogame equivalent of the Second Coming.

*If so desired, the reader may mentally drop the words "out of the water" and get a thematically identical sentence. 


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125 comments | showing # 51 to 100

Necros's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 16:58
Necros
It's crazy that you bring this up, because it went live just around the time we were posting the latest Failcast, on which we discuss this very point.

However...Riser raises an excellent point. Yet another flawed must-read?

This Post: The blog header directly above the text serves to contradict and undermine the important message of the blog.
teknohed's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:01
teknohed
I think that "reviews" are more like "buyers guides". or they SHOULD be like that. What your saying is "buy" "don't buy" "maybe rent".

a 10 out of 10 is basically saying. Even if you don't like the genre...it's something you should at least look at. If you are a connoisseur of games you should play this game some how.

I don't so much think of scores a reflection of a games perfection...more like its' relevance or its' ability to be enjoyed by a large group of gamers.

That's my $0.02
Dr Milkdad's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:04
Dr Milkdad
@Riser Glen

I just saw that now too, and was totally going to point that out.
saysay's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:05
saysay
If nothing is perfect, and a game will never get a ten, then what will a 9 be? The point of a number system is a PRACTICAL gauge to compare other games to. Why are you worried about what perfect means? Who said 10/10 is PERFECT anyways? This article takes something pragmatic and overanalyses it to the point of removing its efficacy. IMO this is a philosophical inquiry without a realistic point.
Yashoki's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:05
Yashoki
Here's my response: Who fucking cares?
neveranything's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:09
neveranything
I always appreciate the articles on reviewing games here, because everything that's been said so far has been spot on. DToid has helped to bring constructive discussion on the rating process to the front and point out some of the flaws in the current conventional rating system.

But, at the end of the day, there is one fundamental flaw of a review that will always exist in any form of a rating system, the fact that a rating will always include, in some degree, a personal opinion, and that will always lead to some form of dissent, and at least one troll spouting off. There will always be that small group who will find fault with a review, for any reason, and declare the reviewer biased and the review null and void. There will always be that company that feels that their product is perfect, and will write to the reviewer and try to persuade them to change their review. All of this because one person's opinion does not match another's.

I can think of no better an example of this than the Condemned 2 review. People who enjoyed the game were furious that it received such a negative review, even though it was as objective as it could be.

I think the bulk of the Dtoid readers are able to agree so easily with the posts about reviews because it's preaching to the choir, and I think that's why we're here in the first place, because weather we agree with the reviews from Dtoid or not, we agree with Dtoid's philosophies and practices of game reviews, and we respect the reviewers because we know they'll make a much more thorough review than other sites.

The bottom line, all the posts on the subject have been spot on, and by all means please keep posting them (I personally enjoy reading them), but there's some problems that, no matter how much you talk about them and how hard you try, you just can't fix.
Aertyr's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:14
Aertyr
11/10 is perfect. Duh.
Spartacus's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:29
Spartacus
Obviously Gamespot has some...controversy among their reviews, but how do feel about their 10/10 scores (only ones to my knowledge are Soul Caliber, Tony Hawk 3, and Ocarina of Time)?
loki d20's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:39
loki d20
Not sure why there would be any confusion. I thought the whole issue was with the disproportionate reviews of games due to emotional attachment (or detachment) from games rather than the games themselves.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:43
Anthony Burch
Regarding the 10=perfect review header graphic:

Whoops. I'll ask Niero about it.
Dr Milkdad's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:46
Dr Milkdad
Glad to hear... My guess is that may have caused some confusion.

Although I just noticed it minutes after my first comment.
Eques-Ardor's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:47
Eques-Ardor
@ Knives, not @ Calpis :P
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:48
Sharpless
I agree completely. I used to also be in the other camp, until sometime during the past year. I've come to realize that there is no perfect game, as you say. I give The Orange Box a 10/10. Does it have flaws? Yeah... somewhere.
keener's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:50
keener
-1 strictly on the grounds that it devolves into a bullet-hell-esq puzzle game pretty early on.

if i wanted to play a puzzle game i wouldnt buy a shmup.

i still <3 rev and toph though
bruceleethree's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 17:54
bruceleethree
The dove release represented he had a change of heart and decided to let life live as he dies.

Blade Runner is my favorite movie of all time, the greatest movie of all time and the best foreshadow of the future I've ever seen.
necrozen's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:01
necrozen
I agree with everything you have to say here, Rev Anthony. Very well stated. Destructoid has really put my faith back in the ratings system.

I know some people bash it, but I think that it's nice to have a number system that sums up the thoughts of the reviewer so long as:

(a) The review is well-written and expresses both the objective and subjective aspects gameplay and story as well as the personal opinion of the writer on both.

(b) The number system is utilized properly and is well defined.

Nice work.
Rifter01's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:03
Rifter01
I digg and dugg you. I agree 110%. Nitpicks sometimes are just a wet blanket. (Wet blanket = Party pooper) :Op
TheRemedy's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:14
TheRemedy
So no one at dtoid noticed that their own graphic said perfect next to the 10?
TheRemedy's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:33
TheRemedy
That last comment came off more negative than it should have, my bad.

I just also want to ask why is it so bad that you may have dissenters in the review? I mean isn't the point of a comments section to give feedback on the post? I could see if everyone was being a dick about it but the majority of the comments were well constructed.

Instead of creating a bunch of posts about why our disagreeing is wrong, why not just disable comments for reviews?
nopk's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:35
nopk
10/10 = 100%

100% infers that you can not do better.

If a game got a 10/10 in a destructoid review, one of three things is true here.

1. Destructoid does a bad job of reviewing games.
2. The game was actually perfect, which is impoosible.
or
3. The numerical review system is retarded and destructoid needs to wise up and get rid of it.

I think it's 3.
TrailerParkJesus's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:53
TrailerParkJesus
This article is perfect
Samit Sarkar's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 18:59
Samit Sarkar
@nopk: We’ve said time and again that we can’t get rid of the numerical scores because of Metacritic, etc.

I’m glad someone finally stated this, Anthony.

Everything is flawed. Nothing is perfect. If The Godfather isn't a 10/10, what is?”

Exactly. And your other point, about “why would you call it a 1-10 scale and then not use the 10,” is even more solid. Well done, my friend.
zod000's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:03
zod000
It seems to me that a 10 out of 10 should just mean "the best of comparable games". I mean if you rated the most hottest girl you have ever seen a 10, that doesn't mean she could be hotter. And I also agree with everyone who said that if Topher found some flaws in the game that were worth mentioning it probably should have been a 9/10.
ajaxender's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:13
ajaxender
nopk - 100% doesnt meant that you cant do better. It just means you did everything necessary to get 100%. If i get 100% in a maths test, it doesnt mean im the best at maths and no-one can do better.

To me, a perfect game is one that does what it was intended to do, with nothing bad to say about it. Thats not 'perfect' perfect, but it certainly deserves 10/10. The only game i can think of right now that deserves 10/10 is Portal, but im sure theres a few others.
JDUB X's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:14
JDUB X
I have been trying to convince people of this for years

Great Read!
helpleo's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:18
helpleo
C´mon, the whole idea of using numbers to evaluate the games is just plain wrong, and serves only for those who don´t have the patience to read the whole review.The article represents exactly what I think, though, because i used to think something was wrong with me because I didn´t adored so called "perfect games" like Portal or Ocarina of Time.Well, i think that Twilight Princess is far superior to Ocarina, while Mr. Anthony gave it a 4/10.Opinion is something very personal, and there is no such thing as a tottaly unpersonal and cold analysis.Someone opinion can variate from his past experiences with other games, which builds the opinion paremeters of the person (I´m sounding like a sociopolitics teacher now).For instance, I doubt my grandma would gave Ikaruga a 10/10.
kawitchate's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:29
kawitchate
wow. i disagree with Rev.
i didn't think it was possible until now.
Boolean's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:31
Boolean
"OXM handled this by creating, 11. As they call it, the Unicorn. the perfect game. That cannot exist. Thus 10s are possible because they are as close as a game can come to perfect."

Haha, brilliant =D
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:41
Wedge
Wait wait wait...

Did you just say the ship being bigger than the hitbox in Ikaruga is a [i]flaw]/i]?
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:49
Anthony Burch
Well, yeah. Why wouldn't it be? It makes it impossible to get through certain areas of the game without forcing the player to break the fourth wall and see BEYOND what the game is showing them, essentially forcing you to meta-game in order to do something which oughtta be accessible from the get-go. And it makes dodging stuff harder and more imprecise than it needs to be.

I mean, it looks kinda pretty, but I see no utilitarian reason for the ship to be so much bigger than the hitbox.
GrayFox's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 19:55
GrayFox
Some parts of the game would be flatout impossible without a tiny hitbox.
animateria's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:10
animateria
Ikaruga had some flaws so it should have been a 9?

BUT! People forget about the reviewer skews!

Its not uncommon for a reviewer to give a game an extra point because he or she is a fan of a genre, and thinks the game is ahead of other similar games in the genre. Most enthusiasts would know the reviewers preferences to a degree and should take reviews as a grain of salt. (In this case, we already knew the reviewer was a fan of Ikaruga)

I think after 1UP's change to the letter grade scale, nobody can complain about their review scores. A 10 is approximately a A+, I don't think its unreasonable to give that to Ikaruga.
Anthony Burch's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:21
Anthony Burch
GrayFox:
I'm saying the ship sprite should be smaller, not that the hitbox should be bigger.
dinky trabant's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:24
dinky trabant


Yay or nay?
GrayFox's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:25
GrayFox
I'm guessing they wanted the ship to be easily visible. The hit box is like 1 x 4 pixels or something like that.
MrHappySunshine's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:26
MrHappySunshine
I understand what your saying about the issue of a 10 game my feeling is that if a game is worthy of being called a 10 then it is something that you feel every gamer should one day experience because of how this game has shook the foundation of video game history. Games that 5/10 years from now will be just as good as when you put them down. That is what a 10 should be. I do think it can be imperfect it small ways but the overall experience has to be something that pushes the boundaries.
Sir Unimaginative's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:38
Sir Unimaginative
@nopk: The problem with your argument is that the system Destructoid uses has an observed precision of 0.5/10.

This means that anything that is at least .975 of a perfect game is going to fit better in 10/10 than anywhere else. That alone should tell you that 10 is not just for perfect games... and should, as a practical upshot, express the whole 'Even once a year may be too often to give this out' weight of it.

As for judging how a game will hold up in the next generation: That's something that only the next generation can say. Personally, I give later ratings a lot more credit than earlier ones for games I haven't picked up yet, simply because games are still evolving. I know I wouldn't give nearly as high a rating to Planescape: Torment or Earthbound now as I would have when I first played them ('02 and '96, respectively), simply because games these days do it better - but I'd still say that it's irresponsible for people to not at least try them.
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:41
Wedge
If the ship was the size of the hitbox, you couldn't see it. It's not a flaw, a ton of shumps do that. They aren't the type of games where youl'd be breaking the "immersion" of the game world by doing that. And it's far more important the ship be visible then be "realistically" sized to it's collision.

The rest of the article is fine though ;P.
Slayzer's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 20:49
Slayzer
In the most ironic way possible Okami Wii released today and the box had a 9/10 score on it from "Play" (magazine?) however all the copies at gamestop had stickers from 1up/Egm that say "A rated game! - 1up/EGM". I guess even the development/publishing community at large is jumping off the numerical rated bandwagon even if it takes jamming stickers over already printed cases.
Rational_Jesus's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:05
Rational_Jesus
I'm getting kind of tired of this whole review debate. Whether it's Dtoid or any other site/publication/newspaper/TV show that reviews games or any type of media - Reviews are SUBJECTIVE. Every reviewer brings their own bias, baggage, and opinions to the table when they sit down to write up a game. When I read a review I try to think of it as listening to what one of my friends would say about a game. Then I go the next review and get their take on it. Much like I talk with all of my friends about what we like and don't like. Of course no game is perfect. If Topher thinks Ikaruga is a 10, then I'm likely to believe him knowing his expertise. Having played the Cube version, I know it’s good and that it is hard. I was on the fence about buying it (Xbox d-pad). But since Topher gave the ok, I went ahead and got it. The key is to find reviewers who know what they are talking about and ones that share your sensibilities. And I don't get mad when I think a review score is too high or too low. My personal self-worth is not tied up in what I think of a video game. If I disagree, so be it, not that big of deal. That's why I read Destructoid, I like the people on the site and trust their judgment. We don't ways agree but I always want to hear the editor's opinion and I respect them for their honesty.
Jetsetlemming's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:11
Jetsetlemming
A 10/10 game is not a game without flaws, but rather a game with which you have no worthwhile complaints. I'll give a few examples.
Deus Ex. My #1 absolute favorite game of all time. It does, however, have stilted, robot-y animation, and all the little stuff that Shifter fixes. However, I would still give it a perfect score and I love it to death and there isn't a thing in the world about it that diminishes my opinion of its greatness.
Xcom: UFO Defense. In Xcom, the "hitboxes" and character models don't 100% match so you'll very rarely see stuff like bullets going through a character's head without landing a hit. The Psi powered aliens can attack any of your troops as long as they can just see one, and always default to whomever has the lowest Psi Strength stat. There's a bug in transferring between two battle maps (something in Xcom 1 you only see at the very end of the game) that can cause most of your soldiers's equipment to vanish. I don't mind at all though, I love this game to death, and it's very, very close to being %1 instead of Deus Ex. I adore this fucking game.
Shadowrun (gen). Shadowrun is capable of being beat in about half an hour once you know where to go. The design of the abandoned buildings is kinda wonky and is always the same no matter what building you're in (except one), the wilderness is almost impossible to find your way around but it's required to beat the game, and you're reported to the cops as a criminal just for walking around. I don't care. Shadowrun just may be the closest to perfection any game I've ever played has come.

Get my point?
JJ Rage's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:39
JJ Rage
Why is it that every time there are disagreements with a Dtoid review, we get an editorial about it the next day?

I was the most vocal in that Ikaruga review, and my initial post simply stated that I disagreed, but I didn't want to get into it. It was Topher and Hamza who ASKED me to voice my opinion.

This editorial is exactly why I held my tongue.

Why can't you just let your readers have an opinion? I didn't come out and say Topher was wrong, only that the review could be construed as biased. I didn't even say the game wasn't good, just that it didn't deserve a perfect score. I was well aware that Topher wasn't implying the game was perfect. I just didn't think it deserve a 10/10.

The last time a group of readers got vocal about a review they didn't agree with, Jim created an entire post to call us wankers. I love this site, but I don't come here to get patronized and insulted.
Y0j1mb0's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:49
Y0j1mb0
Good read.
Vitamin Awesome's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:53
Vitamin Awesome
Shoot 'em up is a perfect movie.

If you disagree, then you're not perfect like me.

I love being perfect. It feels so.... perfikt.
KamikazeTutor's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 21:55
KamikazeTutor
Finally some one comprehends my hate for Blade Runner's story.
The movie looks good but the plot just leaves much to desire.
arun6004's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 22:29
arun6004
bitch and bicker and bitch and bicker and bitch and bicker and bitch and bicker and bitch... lighten up.
Detry's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 22:50
Detry
This is why I call Rev the video game Pope.
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/17/2008 22:52
Sharpless
@JJ Rage
What you and a lot of readers fail to realize is that there is a huge difference between having an opinion and being a whiny bitch about a review score. I don't want to speak for the reviewers, but I believe that is what they're saying. Disagree all you want, but try to remember that it's a review and it's subjective and it doesn't freaking matter.

Also, while I think some of their previous review editorials were unnecessary, I'm glad they wrote this one, as it needed to be addressed. I mean, if 10 is perfect and there is no perfect game, then why even have 10 on the scale at all? Right?
JJ Rage's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/18/2008 00:13
JJ Rage
@Sharpless

Have you read any of my posts pertaining to the Condemned 2 and Ikaruga reviews? Or do you just see me disagreeing and lump me in with the whiners?

I agree that there are plenty of readers who are incredibly reactionary, and can only muster insults. But I'm not one of those readers.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The comments section is not exclusively designed to kiss the collective asses of the editors. Editorials like this could be discouraging to readers who wish nothing more than to voice their own opinions.

I respect Rev, Topher, CTZ, Jim, and every other editor on this site. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with them all of the time.
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