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Well, they were a bad idea in terms of how they were designed, it was boring. If they had done it more Metal Gear like, so it's more like a puzzle, it could have been so much better.
They added nothing but a slight level of artificial excitement, that honestly clashed with the way I was playing the game. Plot wise they were pointless and if you preordered the game and got the grenade launcher they were also defeat-able within 5 seconds.
They were a bad decision.
They were a bad decision.
I loved the battles, the second one in particular. So no, they were not a bad idea to include them. However, reworking the situations to allow more options for the player to get through without fighting, or fighting differently, would have been a better idea.
They just felt poorly designed. They could have been a lot more than simple "fill the other guy with bullets" boss fights. Zero Punctuation's review on the game makes some good points regarding the boss fights, and how they could have made them better.
I like them *in theory*, but in practice I just wound up just doing the save/reload crawl through most of them. Supposedly there are a couple ways around a couple of them, but I never even tried because I was under assault almost immediately. Didn't have time to try anything but fighting back directly.
So, for me, they broke the flow of the game. They were a chore. :P
So, for me, they broke the flow of the game. They were a chore. :P
@PenKaizen - Couldn't have said it better myself. Having boss fights that weren't avoidable wasn't the problem (as much). The boss fights just felt very uninspired overall. Could've been much better.
In Mass Effect, you didn't have to fight Saren. You can talk to him and if you pick the right dialogue options, he kills himself. Something like that. Fallout New Vegas gave you interesting options other than fighting as well.
In Mass Effect, you didn't have to fight Saren. You can talk to him and if you pick the right dialogue options, he kills himself. Something like that. Fallout New Vegas gave you interesting options other than fighting as well.
In Mass Effect, you didn't have to fight Saren. You can talk to him and if you pick the right dialogue options, he kills himself. Something like that. Fallout New Vegas gave you interesting options other than fighting as well.
In Mass Effect, you didn't have to fight Saren. You can talk to him and if you pick the right dialogue options, he kills himself. Something like that. Fallout New Vegas gave you interesting options other than fighting as well.
All the 'choice' is a bit superficial IMO, knocking someone out is just the same as killing them, except easier. The first Deus Ex did everything better (again IMO) including the boss fights of Navartr and Gunther. That said, I did enjoy the game alot and the boss fights were pretty bad-ass.
The problem with the fights is that the game encourages you to play as a stealthy hacker with no kills, and when you fight the bosses even if you manage the almost impossible and take them down using only non-letal weapons (its possible), you just get the same cut-scene.
The last boss fight however was brilliant and I enjoyed it. Multiple ways of completing it, you could beat it with use a pistol and a few bullets.
It would have just been nice to win the others by disabling them, even if they take the self-destruct route. In fact if they died due to outside control it would make the end-game choices feel more important.
The last boss fight however was brilliant and I enjoyed it. Multiple ways of completing it, you could beat it with use a pistol and a few bullets.
It would have just been nice to win the others by disabling them, even if they take the self-destruct route. In fact if they died due to outside control it would make the end-game choices feel more important.
I would have had a debate! School them, and then finish them off using crowd star power! Just like Ron Paul would.
I think the bosses would have been fine if they had more options for beating them, such as puzzle or stealth solutions.
Yo everyone. I be hearin' dat in Mass Effect, you didn't have to fight Saren. You can talk to him and if you pick the right dialogue options, he kills himself. Something like that. Fallout New Vegas gave you interesting options other than fighting as well
I didn't really mind. The endings all sucked ass. They did not reward me for all the time I spent playing nor did they really go anywhere interesting story-wise. They all felt like a cheap way to include more than one ending and give the player a pointless choice to make. A choice they can change by saving right before the end of the game and reloading after beating it.
I felt nothing but the slight amusement one sometimes gets when they earn an achievement.
I felt nothing but the slight amusement one sometimes gets when they earn an achievement.
I liked the battles a lot, and I was pretty focused on hacking and stuff and never had a problem with any of them. Though I would have liked for there to be more ways to take down a boss.
I find boss fights somewhat unusual for a Deus Ex game, but I didn't find them too hard even though I geared for stealth.
Barret, for example, could be taken out by explosive barrels and gas canisters. And the stun gun slowed him down enough for me to do those things.
Perhaps they should have cribbed another page from Metal Gear and had a "stamina meter" for bosses so you had the option to take them down without killing them.
All the same, I appreciated the variety. Even if you insist that how you play should he completely consistent with how the story presents itself you have to remember Deus Ex has no angels, no heroes and no ultimate good will come of any ending you choose to go with. People will still die and there will still be corruption, but you might be able to stall it for a bit... if you eliminate the sources of those problems for a bit.
At any rate, I find DX's choices still amazingly more consistent than most other games where people insist choice is so central. Its hard for me to appreciate Bioware games when Elder Scrolls and DX do choice so much better.
Barret, for example, could be taken out by explosive barrels and gas canisters. And the stun gun slowed him down enough for me to do those things.
Perhaps they should have cribbed another page from Metal Gear and had a "stamina meter" for bosses so you had the option to take them down without killing them.
All the same, I appreciated the variety. Even if you insist that how you play should he completely consistent with how the story presents itself you have to remember Deus Ex has no angels, no heroes and no ultimate good will come of any ending you choose to go with. People will still die and there will still be corruption, but you might be able to stall it for a bit... if you eliminate the sources of those problems for a bit.
At any rate, I find DX's choices still amazingly more consistent than most other games where people insist choice is so central. Its hard for me to appreciate Bioware games when Elder Scrolls and DX do choice so much better.
Was disappointed by them, for already stated reasons. On my second play through, they're surprisingly easy, knowing how to approach each...what is not what the game is about otherwise.
Yeah, the developers justify them due to 'story' demands, come on, they can create scenarios where two characters face off in more creative ways?
Yeah, the developers justify them due to 'story' demands, come on, they can create scenarios where two characters face off in more creative ways?
As a stealth character with little to no combat skills the first boss caught me by surprise and frustrated me to no end. Afterwards I changed how I selected skills to ensure I didn't get caught unprepared by future bosses.
While I do agree that you need boss fights to break up monotony and add a sense of closure to a "level" of the game, I don't think these bosses were very important to the story. As far as the story was concerned they could've been completely nameless as you never learn ANYTHING about their backstory/motivations other than them being clearly "bad guys".
It's one thing to add boss fights, but make the boss significant to the story. Part of me wonders if they were added late in development as they have almost not effect on the overall story and only show up in passing in some cinematics.
While I do agree that you need boss fights to break up monotony and add a sense of closure to a "level" of the game, I don't think these bosses were very important to the story. As far as the story was concerned they could've been completely nameless as you never learn ANYTHING about their backstory/motivations other than them being clearly "bad guys".
It's one thing to add boss fights, but make the boss significant to the story. Part of me wonders if they were added late in development as they have almost not effect on the overall story and only show up in passing in some cinematics.
I probably can't talk about difficulty or unfairness having leapt straight into Give Me Deus Ex difficulty for my first go, but the only boss I thought was a legitimate problem was the first one.
I heard that on Normal he can be dropped in two rockets, but on Deus Ex he takes three rockets, two-three clips of 10mm shots and seven stun gun darts before finally falling over. Plus, he can destroy you in two-three shots and his punching attack seemingly outright kills you.
One of the other two people from the augmented merc trio could've easily gone first, with the man-tank saved for later when players have had the time to actually prepare for all situations. Fighting him at that point is kind of unfair in that you've probably only adapted to one or two play-styles at that point, and odds are combat isn't one of them.
The others are fine; by the second boss I had spread my augments out enough to handle combat, stealth and hacking all at once and had a decent set of equipment to non-lethally take down regular goons and heavier, lethal stuff to get rid of the bosses. Maybe a different boss, a toned down one that's more reasonable for any play style would've been best first.
I heard that on Normal he can be dropped in two rockets, but on Deus Ex he takes three rockets, two-three clips of 10mm shots and seven stun gun darts before finally falling over. Plus, he can destroy you in two-three shots and his punching attack seemingly outright kills you.
One of the other two people from the augmented merc trio could've easily gone first, with the man-tank saved for later when players have had the time to actually prepare for all situations. Fighting him at that point is kind of unfair in that you've probably only adapted to one or two play-styles at that point, and odds are combat isn't one of them.
The others are fine; by the second boss I had spread my augments out enough to handle combat, stealth and hacking all at once and had a decent set of equipment to non-lethally take down regular goons and heavier, lethal stuff to get rid of the bosses. Maybe a different boss, a toned down one that's more reasonable for any play style would've been best first.
I didn't mind the 2nd one but the rest were fucking stupid. The reason is because she could't kill you in one blow
I agree that they seem out of place since you can spend the rest of the game not hurting a fly.
Best options? Either allow for a difficult dialogue tree which will let you avoid the fight, OR allow a stealthy player to do a puzzle-type environmental kill. Switches, levers, barrels in the right places, order, that sort of thing. This is actually -kind- of possible with Barrett, but you still need to finish him off with a few rounds.
Best options? Either allow for a difficult dialogue tree which will let you avoid the fight, OR allow a stealthy player to do a puzzle-type environmental kill. Switches, levers, barrels in the right places, order, that sort of thing. This is actually -kind- of possible with Barrett, but you still need to finish him off with a few rounds.
Yes and no.
I like the idea of boss fights.
Though they should have been more open ended allowing numerous ways to confront you advesary.
Hell it should have been possible to sneak away from boss battles and such.
Really all I'm saying is they should have had bigger ideas for the bosses rather than just kill them.
I like the idea of boss fights.
Though they should have been more open ended allowing numerous ways to confront you advesary.
Hell it should have been possible to sneak away from boss battles and such.
Really all I'm saying is they should have had bigger ideas for the bosses rather than just kill them.
I liked them because they brought you out of your comfort zone. I played a non lethal stealth hack characters and that made me think differently. But after revisiting them, turns out you have many options to take them out, and don't need to spray bullets for 10 minutes.
What I have dubbed, "The Invisible Bitch with the Stupid Haircut" has completely halted my progress in the game. What was a serious contender for my favorite game has become "fuck this shit" instantly. If I'm ever able to get past this horrible section of the game, maybe I can look back on it favorably. So yeah, I would agree that these boss battles tarnish the game.
I've only progressed far enough to encounter one of the bosses, so I can only speak about my experience with Mr. Drill Sergeant.
I definitely don't have a problem with having a boss battle like this one and, with some analysis of your surroundings, such a battle can be beaten with a stealth build rather easily. However, the boss battle is rather poorly implemented with regard to the rest of the game and it feels like just to abrupt of a shift for two reasons.
The first reason is that, at least on the PC, the controls used in stealth movement are just way too clunky for the kind of quick reaction needed for this fight. They're fine when you're slowly plodding through a level and tactfully taking out guards, but they're just awful when it comes to evading grenade blasts, gun fire, and turning cloaking on and off. With some practice, a user can get a better handle on the clunkiness, but the shift is just too abrupt. Which brings me to reason two...
... for a first boss battle, the game just swings way too far to the other rail way too quickly. Up until the boss fight, the game spends all of its time encouraging a stealth build and a way of playing that encourages slow movement and deliberate thinking. It suddenly throws you at a boss which requires the exact opposite. It would have been fine as a second or third boss fight, but for a first fight it's just ridiculous.
It's kind of exemplified by the standard retort I get when I discuss my problems with the way this fight is implemented. Most players say, "well, he's easy to beat with that rocket launcher you can pick up earlier in the level." My response is, "I'm a fucking stealth build that has been playing non-lethal, something the game encourages you to do with increased XP and guard positioning. Why the fuck would a stealthy knock-out artist pick up a fucking rocket launcher that takes up half your inventory!?"
I definitely don't have a problem with having a boss battle like this one and, with some analysis of your surroundings, such a battle can be beaten with a stealth build rather easily. However, the boss battle is rather poorly implemented with regard to the rest of the game and it feels like just to abrupt of a shift for two reasons.
The first reason is that, at least on the PC, the controls used in stealth movement are just way too clunky for the kind of quick reaction needed for this fight. They're fine when you're slowly plodding through a level and tactfully taking out guards, but they're just awful when it comes to evading grenade blasts, gun fire, and turning cloaking on and off. With some practice, a user can get a better handle on the clunkiness, but the shift is just too abrupt. Which brings me to reason two...
... for a first boss battle, the game just swings way too far to the other rail way too quickly. Up until the boss fight, the game spends all of its time encouraging a stealth build and a way of playing that encourages slow movement and deliberate thinking. It suddenly throws you at a boss which requires the exact opposite. It would have been fine as a second or third boss fight, but for a first fight it's just ridiculous.
It's kind of exemplified by the standard retort I get when I discuss my problems with the way this fight is implemented. Most players say, "well, he's easy to beat with that rocket launcher you can pick up earlier in the level." My response is, "I'm a fucking stealth build that has been playing non-lethal, something the game encourages you to do with increased XP and guard positioning. Why the fuck would a stealthy knock-out artist pick up a fucking rocket launcher that takes up half your inventory!?"
They were disappointingly straightforward. In a game with a ton of choice, the boss fights felt too routine. The AI core fight had an interesting wrinkle, but was still essentially shoot, reload, repeat. I would have liked to have two or three ways to put down a boss rather than the typical "put an inhuman amount of bullets into an opponent".
Most all of the bosses required you to just chuck bombs at them or stagger them with the stun gun or gas grenades, so from a design outlook they probably were a bad idea. The final boss just required you to stand and shoot it, which was pretty lame.
@urahara
What non-lethal weapons can you use to take them down? Tranquilizer guns don't work. The stun gun, PEPS, and non-lethal grenades just stun them. Unless I missed a gun somewhere, that's all of them.
What non-lethal weapons can you use to take them down? Tranquilizer guns don't work. The stun gun, PEPS, and non-lethal grenades just stun them. Unless I missed a gun somewhere, that's all of them.
I liked the boss fights. Well, I didn't like that I felt like I'd specced my character in a way that was the exact opposite of someone who could beat the bosses (Penny Arcade summed that up quite well), and the game was so sparse with ammo that I didn't feel like I had decent weapons (or the space in my inventory to carry weapons sufficient for fighting bosses). But yeah, I actually enjoyed the change of pace. Boss #1 really wasn't that hard - hide behind a pillar, a few sniper rifle shots to the face. Boss #2 I took down with the Typhoon. Boss #3 was tough due to [spoiler redacted], but managed to use a few mines and the heavy rifle. End boss - ooh, loved the plasma rifle they so graciously handed me right before fighting.
@Shane Saiyan: Any non-lethal weapon does damage them as well as stun them. I know because I dealt the killing blow to Sir Man-Tank with the stun gun.
It depends.
Each of the bossfights has its own "wow" factor to it. The rooms they occur in, with the exception of the first boss, are intricately and meticulously designed, beautiful to look at, and just generally pleasant to the eye. Each room is tailored to the fights that occur in them, and each situation has different sets of goals to accomplish and different factors to overcome.
Unfortunately, a lot of that is mired by the character building. Trying to take out the second boss at Picus on the hardest difficulty setting might as well be impossible if you haven't picked up the EM/Electricity invulnerability. If you're not careful she'll blow up the transformers lining the outer edge of the room and kill you instantly when the floor lights up through basically no fault of your own. It's absolute garbage, gameplay wise.
Still, though, I got a lot of satisfaction out of the bossfights in Deus Ex. They've all got their own tempo; the first is a slugfest, the second is a dance, the third is a sprint, and the fourth is a clusterfuck. Out of all of them, though, I have to say I enjoyed the third boss the most. Strangely enough, I found it especially exhilarating when you're debilitated during the fight. Something about that claustrophobic ass room, the statues, and the fact that you're constantly being hunted and can't use your trump cards is just satisfying. The only way I beat him was by running around like a madman, dodging his grenades and shooting him with the Revolver's explosive rounds. It was a tense nail-biter but it was such sweet, succulent satisfaction when the last round cracked into the side of his head and it was over. That satisfaction is difficult to come by these days though. A lot of the time bosses are designed to be beaten, not designed to beat you. Deus Ex subscribes to the reasoning of the former rather than the latter, and while certain upgrades can make the fights easier, there's really only one case I've found where it's absolutely NECESSARY to take a certain ability. Certain abilities help, sure, but they aren't explicitly necessary if you play smart and keep your eyes open.
Each of the bossfights has its own "wow" factor to it. The rooms they occur in, with the exception of the first boss, are intricately and meticulously designed, beautiful to look at, and just generally pleasant to the eye. Each room is tailored to the fights that occur in them, and each situation has different sets of goals to accomplish and different factors to overcome.
Unfortunately, a lot of that is mired by the character building. Trying to take out the second boss at Picus on the hardest difficulty setting might as well be impossible if you haven't picked up the EM/Electricity invulnerability. If you're not careful she'll blow up the transformers lining the outer edge of the room and kill you instantly when the floor lights up through basically no fault of your own. It's absolute garbage, gameplay wise.
Still, though, I got a lot of satisfaction out of the bossfights in Deus Ex. They've all got their own tempo; the first is a slugfest, the second is a dance, the third is a sprint, and the fourth is a clusterfuck. Out of all of them, though, I have to say I enjoyed the third boss the most. Strangely enough, I found it especially exhilarating when you're debilitated during the fight. Something about that claustrophobic ass room, the statues, and the fact that you're constantly being hunted and can't use your trump cards is just satisfying. The only way I beat him was by running around like a madman, dodging his grenades and shooting him with the Revolver's explosive rounds. It was a tense nail-biter but it was such sweet, succulent satisfaction when the last round cracked into the side of his head and it was over. That satisfaction is difficult to come by these days though. A lot of the time bosses are designed to be beaten, not designed to beat you. Deus Ex subscribes to the reasoning of the former rather than the latter, and while certain upgrades can make the fights easier, there's really only one case I've found where it's absolutely NECESSARY to take a certain ability. Certain abilities help, sure, but they aren't explicitly necessary if you play smart and keep your eyes open.
Ive only have one boss fight as of right now. And it was alright but Im playing the game to be a stealthy killing machine. My pistol is PIMP!
PenKaizen said what I wanted to say, with a good example (since everyone seems to think comparing DE:HR to MGS is all the rage), so I'll just agree with him.
I didn't find it BAD, just a missed oportunity to make me give the game a 9. I know Jim liked it and gave it a high score, but I wouldn't give it that much. Still an 8 though, great fucking game. Could have been one of the greatest games I've played in my life, but didn't go that far with me.
I didn't find it BAD, just a missed oportunity to make me give the game a 9. I know Jim liked it and gave it a high score, but I wouldn't give it that much. Still an 8 though, great fucking game. Could have been one of the greatest games I've played in my life, but didn't go that far with me.
everyone is talking about how their character was more geared towards stealth like there was a deep leveling and skill system in this game. the augments do not change your character so much that you cannot run and shoot someone with a gun or throw grenades at them.
I felt that the boss fights were a little bit old school, but i did not feel like they were really that out of place. you can always make something better, but my main complaint about this game is that i wish it was about 3 times as long. the game isnt short but i just wish there was a lot more of it.
and the final merc that you fight looks sooooo badass.
I felt that the boss fights were a little bit old school, but i did not feel like they were really that out of place. you can always make something better, but my main complaint about this game is that i wish it was about 3 times as long. the game isnt short but i just wish there was a lot more of it.
and the final merc that you fight looks sooooo badass.
As many have pointed out, it was poorly planned. There should have been more polish put on there, even a way to opt out of those fights using stealth or conversation.
I absolutely loved Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It was a love letter to cyberpunk. It was a gameplay romance between Metal Gear Solid and Hitman. But the boss fights consistently broke my experience every time. In fact, the final boss fight made me actually stop playing between deaths and arduous reloads to go on my Twitter and bitch about them. I wrote then, "It's like watching the climax of a movie all about conspiracy & here comes the big finale— and you're forced to dig a ditch instead." If they prompt that kind of disruption to a game that I am otherwise overly enthusiastic about in every other way, the boss fights were a massive, massive failure of game design.
I think they're fine, not fantastic ala mgs. However as just beating the second boss as a complete stealth character, I had no troubles at all. In fact my personal setup which included being able to run fast made it easy to dispense her black ass, especially since I planned that, if I were really jensen, I would make sure I had one tough guy weapon to dispose of the tougher guys. My revolver. I like the boss battles, they challenge me to use my fps skills, and use the decisions I've made thus far to best my opponents.
It would have been fine if they had given a non-lethal or social option for beating said bosses. I play stealth, as such all my primary augs were leaning towards hacking, cloaking and whatnot. So when I hit the first boss fight I was rocking a stun gun and tranq rifle, which do practically nothing to a boss. I also had no inventory space for weapons, as I didn't need the inventory space before that point.
I didn't have the Typhoon (I did get it later specifically for boss fights), either, which fantastically breaks the boss fights and allows you to win every fight in about a minute at most. The final boss fight (spoiler) can be won in 30 seconds without actually fighting anything, if you know what to do.
I wish they had more social fights, like the first 'fight' you encounter in the game. You could fight him if you wanted, you could also talk him down, tranquilize him or any combination of those. Loved the game overall, but the boss fights did seem unnecessary.
I didn't have the Typhoon (I did get it later specifically for boss fights), either, which fantastically breaks the boss fights and allows you to win every fight in about a minute at most. The final boss fight (spoiler) can be won in 30 seconds without actually fighting anything, if you know what to do.
I wish they had more social fights, like the first 'fight' you encounter in the game. You could fight him if you wanted, you could also talk him down, tranquilize him or any combination of those. Loved the game overall, but the boss fights did seem unnecessary.
That said.... I absolutely think that the modernized "hold lt to ads" would make these boss fights 30% better
The bosses made logical sense and did help the story along, but were awful in terms of gameplay, even quick time events would have been better than those boss fights.
They did feel a bit randomly inserted ("Here, have a boss fight!") but overall I didn't mind them. I was initially worried that a stealth build might be screwed, but I did just fine against them. They give you so many freebies around each room (exploding canisters, grenades scattered around, etc.) that you're not really hamstrung by missing combat augs. In the grand scheme, they were pretty simple, really... especially compared to some of the PITA battles in games like the Metal Gear series.
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