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We live in the west, so the majority of the comments are going to be how Japan is failing and blah blah blah. Considering most people here don't play any Japanese games outside the big titles + Atlus there isn't going to be an even handed and enlightened discussion.
I would say it's Square Enix and the once glorious Final Fantasy series that is stagnating rather than Japanese games in general.
I don't think either are "faltering", I think it's all a matter of taste. I personally prefer the "gory, gun-spraying festivals of violence." to the "melodramatic, cute, far out games" of the East. But that's not to say either are better or worse. I think there will always be an audience in the West with a taste for the East and vice versa.
Japanese horror flicks for example have a cult following in the West but are not considered blockbusters or mainstream, that doesn't stop people like me from enjoying them. They may not get the attention they deserve but hardcore fans will always seek them out.
Japanese horror flicks for example have a cult following in the West but are not considered blockbusters or mainstream, that doesn't stop people like me from enjoying them. They may not get the attention they deserve but hardcore fans will always seek them out.
Gaming in general needs a serious kick up the arse. It's become too much of an 'industry' to allow developers to take big risks with their titles, hence the 'safe' sequels all the big franchises get these days. Final Fantasy...Call of Duty...they're all just as guilty.
@Bobo I'll agree you with you there. It seems the industry is too focused on making tons of money now. Maybe that has to do with games becoming as expensive to make as blockbuster movies.
Either way developers are taking less risk, and some franchises are becoming too stagnant because of it.
Either way developers are taking less risk, and some franchises are becoming too stagnant because of it.
I would say that both East and West have their problems, though I do tend to prefer the stories told in Western RPGs a la Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and Mass Effect. Overall, I wish story telling in gaming would improve on both fronts.
There is now a divide in the fanbase without a doubt. 360 had a strong launch, and PS3 had a weak launch. The media took that story that relevant in 2006 and has run with it for nearly 5 years, nonstop. It wasn't created by Japanese developers commenting, it was created by western journalists carefully and consistently nurturing the divide.
As bitter as I am about this, I hope that we can finally start to see an end to it and put it behind us. I hope that journalists and bloggers will stop going back to this 5 year old story and try to create a new narrative. Enough is enough eh?
As bitter as I am about this, I hope that we can finally start to see an end to it and put it behind us. I hope that journalists and bloggers will stop going back to this 5 year old story and try to create a new narrative. Enough is enough eh?
Sure there are differences in gaming just like there are cultural difference. Games are artistic, even if they are products made for the sale rack. Personally, I like having variety and homogenizing the industry would be a terrible loss.
I think both sides are to blame. But I'm tired of fucking shooters, and cannot get enough of jrpgs.
Hmmm... Maybe I was born in the wrong country. ;P
Hmmm... Maybe I was born in the wrong country. ;P
@Bobo & @Hugh
I think its the combination of the ridiculous budgets publishers have set for themselves on top of the world economy that is causing the stagnation. Films have it bad too, as name recognition becomes more important that creative excursions.
I think its the combination of the ridiculous budgets publishers have set for themselves on top of the world economy that is causing the stagnation. Films have it bad too, as name recognition becomes more important that creative excursions.
No matter what kind of game you're into, there's really never been a better time to be a gamer. One only has to look to the fall release schedule to see that. Nothing has stagnated. It's just a damn good time to be alive.
I would contend that the entire industry is suffering from its own peculiar dementia, each "side" just displays a prominent symptom.
No, I don't need another drab soulless shooter.
No thanks, I'm done with random encounter dungeons.
No, I don't need another drab soulless shooter.
No thanks, I'm done with random encounter dungeons.
I think the east only plays the best western games and not the crap we westerners see most often. I imagine eastern gamers feel the same about JRPGs and what not. So that way we get distorted views of each other.
@Shinta
It doesn't help that 'Western' games include the US, Canada, France, Germany, UK, etc. development. In addition to that it includes development from all types of areas from PSN, XBLA, PC, mega budget and indie games. Eastern development is seen as Square-Enix and JRPGs. Nothing else is taken into consideration for 'Eastern' gaming.
It doesn't help that 'Western' games include the US, Canada, France, Germany, UK, etc. development. In addition to that it includes development from all types of areas from PSN, XBLA, PC, mega budget and indie games. Eastern development is seen as Square-Enix and JRPGs. Nothing else is taken into consideration for 'Eastern' gaming.
@btkliquor
I beg to disagree. Some of Nintendo's first party games; Zelda and Mario spring to mind. Granted, they ARE good, but the argument here is that they are stagnating. Also, most SRPGs. They rely too much on the old 2D sprites, century-old tropes and cheap difficulty that occur due to simply asinine game design choices. Prime offender: Record of Agarest War. But then again, nothing offends me more than Squenix and the mutilation they've done to Final Fantasy...
And don't even get me started on Western military shooters. Just boot up my Steam library and you won't find any shooting games on either B or C alphabetical list.
I beg to disagree. Some of Nintendo's first party games; Zelda and Mario spring to mind. Granted, they ARE good, but the argument here is that they are stagnating. Also, most SRPGs. They rely too much on the old 2D sprites, century-old tropes and cheap difficulty that occur due to simply asinine game design choices. Prime offender: Record of Agarest War. But then again, nothing offends me more than Squenix and the mutilation they've done to Final Fantasy...
And don't even get me started on Western military shooters. Just boot up my Steam library and you won't find any shooting games on either B or C alphabetical list.
I don't like the fact that some major Japanese titles (Final Fantasy is the most prime example) are so far ahead in their timeline, that it's pretty much impossible to play the originals. It's a major turn off. Especially since they actually have a continuing story
Depends, by at large the large established developers on both sides are stagnating like crazy.
There are some awesome gems out there but they usually come from smaller studios. In the rare instance they come from a larger studio it is because they just absorbed a smaller studio and will liquidate them after the project.
There are some awesome gems out there but they usually come from smaller studios. In the rare instance they come from a larger studio it is because they just absorbed a smaller studio and will liquidate them after the project.
There is a divide. But it would be foolish to make sweeping generalizations about quality based simply on the fact that a divide exists.
They're different, to claim that one side is stagnating is ignorant because if the gameplay holds up today and people still buy Pokémon, Final Fantasy and the like, then there's no reason to change it. Same goes with Western games. I'd argue that Japanese developers take more risks, but indies over here have done some pretty cool stuff too. Just not the big developers. You don't see stuff like Phoenix Wright or Professor Layton in the West, it seems like everything has guns, so that's one thing.
I get more fun and value out of indie games than I've gotten out of almost every big game this generation.
Doesn't bode well for the East or the West when a couple guys in their garage can produce a better product than the gaming superpowers.
Doesn't bode well for the East or the West when a couple guys in their garage can produce a better product than the gaming superpowers.
@NickCull Indeed you're right about that. All i see these days are remakes of remakes. But honestly budget should be no excuse. You can still make an awesome Film/Game with little to no budget.
Example - Evil Dead
Example - Evil Dead
Actually that came out wrong, it can be stagnating and still be profitable. But since I brought up Layton and Wright, I think it's still clear that I don't think the East is really stagnating.
Pk493: Final Fantasy doesn't have a continuing story (save for Final Fantasy X-2 and that crap).
Vitruvios Otoko: I might agree with you. But I didn't find Agarest difficult at all. Maybe... you're playing it wrong :P
Vitruvios Otoko: I might agree with you. But I didn't find Agarest difficult at all. Maybe... you're playing it wrong :P
I'm not sure to call it a divide or, more so, a case of "losing one's way". There does seem to be this current of "Japanese games suck" among quite a few gamers, due to the fact of how traditional japanese games are made. A lot of people nowadays (at least within my circle) are more inclined to play things like COD or a whole multitude of other shooters regardless if they are innovative or not. They don't enjoy the grinding, the rpg, the sometimes convoluted storylines, the aesthetics and a whole number of other things. To them Japanese games are juvenile, a chore and are worth nothing more than a short glance and a somewhat vicious remark of disdain.
Then there are those who enjoy traditional Japanese games and even enjoy the new takes that japanese developers have been introducing. They enjoy the way they look, the way they play, the sometimes wackiness that prevails among some titles--they, like the people mentioned previously, just enjoy it. It's what they like to play and truthfully that's it.
That used to be fine for a time, until something changed. I'm not sure exactly what started it, but for me, when I started to notice, it was when Japanese developers started to try and make games catering to the western stylization. They started to forget, in my opinion, what made their games charming and in the process created this awkward hybrid of part Japanese game development style with little hints of western aspects that they couldn't convey properly because they knew only a small aspect of our western culture. It would be like a western developer trying to make a Japanese style game (first that comes to mind is Heavenly Sword; while I enjoyed it, I acknowledge the fact that it does have quite a few issues).
What I feel that needs to happen is that both sides need to stay true to their roots. Like I've heard echoed on this site, the western culture goes through fads. It could be anything. For example, our fashion keeps changing; it wasn't long ago that we had shoulder pads and in our current time we're delving into this hipster movement with largely framed glasses and skinny jeans (which have been done before in, I believe, the 70s or the 80s). Taking that into account, it wasn't long ago that the Japanese were a huge force in the gaming world for just doing what seemingly came naturally to them. Right now, their aesthetic is going through a slump here, but I feel in a couple of years that will change again and next thing you know, JRPGs or some of those wacky boob physics games will be what is "hot" in gaming.
To sum up, the "divide" is temporary. The Japanese just need to understand that fact, keep doing what they're good at, innovate when they feel is truly need it and just wait out this storm until it passes. Hopefully this post made sense, I ranted slightly.
Then there are those who enjoy traditional Japanese games and even enjoy the new takes that japanese developers have been introducing. They enjoy the way they look, the way they play, the sometimes wackiness that prevails among some titles--they, like the people mentioned previously, just enjoy it. It's what they like to play and truthfully that's it.
That used to be fine for a time, until something changed. I'm not sure exactly what started it, but for me, when I started to notice, it was when Japanese developers started to try and make games catering to the western stylization. They started to forget, in my opinion, what made their games charming and in the process created this awkward hybrid of part Japanese game development style with little hints of western aspects that they couldn't convey properly because they knew only a small aspect of our western culture. It would be like a western developer trying to make a Japanese style game (first that comes to mind is Heavenly Sword; while I enjoyed it, I acknowledge the fact that it does have quite a few issues).
What I feel that needs to happen is that both sides need to stay true to their roots. Like I've heard echoed on this site, the western culture goes through fads. It could be anything. For example, our fashion keeps changing; it wasn't long ago that we had shoulder pads and in our current time we're delving into this hipster movement with largely framed glasses and skinny jeans (which have been done before in, I believe, the 70s or the 80s). Taking that into account, it wasn't long ago that the Japanese were a huge force in the gaming world for just doing what seemingly came naturally to them. Right now, their aesthetic is going through a slump here, but I feel in a couple of years that will change again and next thing you know, JRPGs or some of those wacky boob physics games will be what is "hot" in gaming.
To sum up, the "divide" is temporary. The Japanese just need to understand that fact, keep doing what they're good at, innovate when they feel is truly need it and just wait out this storm until it passes. Hopefully this post made sense, I ranted slightly.
Their is indeed a divide and has been for somewhere between 15 and 20 years now. It's just taken until recent years for people to notice how far behind Japan has lagged in terms of innovation, design and creativity. Yes their are the occasional outstanding titles that do amazing things but they are so very few in number now. Japanese devs need to stop fooling themselves in thinking that "being like western titles" is the answer, it isn't at all. What makes japanese games great is their unique japanese-ness, what makes them bad is design rooted in 20+ years of old out dated tradition that needs to be tweaked, altered and updated. They also need to stop obsessing over the same tired old genres like rpgs and top down shooters and try different ones. This has been so bloody obvious for so long I would have thought they'd change their ways of thinking by now instead of allowing their industry to crumble.
@Hugh
Oh, no doubt! I heart some Evil Dead. If anything, these big budgets are getting needlessly out of control, and its even worse considering that no one can really afford it right now. The entire creative industry needs to step back and reassess their spending and figure out how they can do more with less. In the long run, they and the consumer would both be better off.
Oh, no doubt! I heart some Evil Dead. If anything, these big budgets are getting needlessly out of control, and its even worse considering that no one can really afford it right now. The entire creative industry needs to step back and reassess their spending and figure out how they can do more with less. In the long run, they and the consumer would both be better off.
The problem is not East vs West, it is old generation gamers vs new generation gamers. We, older gamers, grow up with japanese games, while there is this new generation who started gaming in the XBox and grow up with FPS. There is problems with east developers of course, but I think it is more a problem with generation gap.
They definitely are different, and they both have their good and bad. Bayonetta, an East designed game, seemed more creative both in gameplay and overall design than God of War 3, a West designed game.
I think a lot of the issue with the East has more to do with business decisions than the creativity of the developers, as they are trying to figure out their place and force their way into modern gaming instead of letting the modern gamer come to them. The West has a similar problem with business decisions, but they've realized how to hook the modern gamer and exploit their wallets, much of the time quieting the creativity of developers in the process.
I think a lot of the issue with the East has more to do with business decisions than the creativity of the developers, as they are trying to figure out their place and force their way into modern gaming instead of letting the modern gamer come to them. The West has a similar problem with business decisions, but they've realized how to hook the modern gamer and exploit their wallets, much of the time quieting the creativity of developers in the process.
I think our stagnation, both east and west, has to do with the large publishers gobbling up smaller operations. As the number of competitors decreases, do does the diversity. It's simple math. Until a new, independent--or spunn-off--company has a few solid launch launches, we will be in big-hair JRPG and grey-brown shooter stagnation.
Western brown shooters are still popular because they're still a "new" trend ( at least compared to the Japanese ones) so people haven't had time to get bored by it yet IMO.
Thats a lotta questions...
"Is there a East vs. West divide?" : Yes, definitely.
"Are both sides as bad as each other?" : No. While its true that both sides are stagnant to some extent, the West has always had PC gaming as the ultimate equalizer. No licensing fees, no devkits, no dealing Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft, etc and it really paid off. Digital distribution merely made it more obvious (remember when we all thought Guild Wars's digital distribution method was crazy? Download and install the entire game via the internet? PFFT!)
"Is Japanese game development failing?" : I don't think its "failing" as much as its getting held back by traditions and older staff members. While the saying may go "Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg", when the goose starts laying rotten eggs, you can't keep it around and keep praying that it starts laying golden eggs again. Sooner or later you have to man up and kill it.
"Are Western games better or worse?" : Generally speaking, better. But thats primarily because of the PC side. On the console side, Western games are just as held back by traditions as Eastern games. Red Dead Redemption, Bioshock and Deux Ex were huge breaths of air but where are all the other Western, Steampunk and Cyberpunk-inspired games? (To say nothing about their gameplay mechanics)
"Is there a divide between the two really there at all, or are we just imagining it?" : There is but trying to find a hard defining line is pointless.
"Is there a East vs. West divide?" : Yes, definitely.
"Are both sides as bad as each other?" : No. While its true that both sides are stagnant to some extent, the West has always had PC gaming as the ultimate equalizer. No licensing fees, no devkits, no dealing Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft, etc and it really paid off. Digital distribution merely made it more obvious (remember when we all thought Guild Wars's digital distribution method was crazy? Download and install the entire game via the internet? PFFT!)
"Is Japanese game development failing?" : I don't think its "failing" as much as its getting held back by traditions and older staff members. While the saying may go "Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg", when the goose starts laying rotten eggs, you can't keep it around and keep praying that it starts laying golden eggs again. Sooner or later you have to man up and kill it.
"Are Western games better or worse?" : Generally speaking, better. But thats primarily because of the PC side. On the console side, Western games are just as held back by traditions as Eastern games. Red Dead Redemption, Bioshock and Deux Ex were huge breaths of air but where are all the other Western, Steampunk and Cyberpunk-inspired games? (To say nothing about their gameplay mechanics)
"Is there a divide between the two really there at all, or are we just imagining it?" : There is but trying to find a hard defining line is pointless.
There is a divide, and the west is doing better at the moment, but they both have serious issues and could stand to learn a lot from one another.
Western games need to be more creative and be willing to take more risks. Just because Call of Duty does really well, doesn't mean we need 3-4 big name "modern combat" games. Also, if you're gonna make a shooter, at least try to make it a bit of a hybrid (like Uncharted or Mass Effect) or do something truly unique with it.
Japanese developers (and also most of their modern anime producers) need to learn to make their work more realistic (for the lack of a better word). I don't mean make it brown/grey and make it about military shooters, but make stories with characters that feel like they could be real people and who have problems we can actually relate to. Also, make sure your world has actual rules to it, so you can't just pull any random bullshit out of your ass. In general, simplify your stories so that we can understand them without a 10 minute explanation of what the hell is going on.
My two favorite games of all time are Shadow of the Colossus and Mass Effect 2. I think both of these embody these ideas on each side, and I would love to see more of it.
Western games need to be more creative and be willing to take more risks. Just because Call of Duty does really well, doesn't mean we need 3-4 big name "modern combat" games. Also, if you're gonna make a shooter, at least try to make it a bit of a hybrid (like Uncharted or Mass Effect) or do something truly unique with it.
Japanese developers (and also most of their modern anime producers) need to learn to make their work more realistic (for the lack of a better word). I don't mean make it brown/grey and make it about military shooters, but make stories with characters that feel like they could be real people and who have problems we can actually relate to. Also, make sure your world has actual rules to it, so you can't just pull any random bullshit out of your ass. In general, simplify your stories so that we can understand them without a 10 minute explanation of what the hell is going on.
My two favorite games of all time are Shadow of the Colossus and Mass Effect 2. I think both of these embody these ideas on each side, and I would love to see more of it.
My favorite developers are either Japanese with Western leanings or vice versa. Atlus' games borrow rather deeply from really old-school western RPGs in terms of philosophy compared to the Western RPG post-KOTOR.
it sort of make s me sad that people thing Bioware's games are the epitome of choice when Elder Scrolls, Shin Megami Tensei (read: NOT Persona) and Deus Ex feel much more rich in gameplay choice on top of story choice. Bioware games tend to just favor story choice or character relationships, but don't feel as dynamic in terms of gameplay and world as those other franchises do.
Many of my 2D favorites this gen have been done by western developers, but they're essentially Japanese in gameplay design. I don't think anyone can argue that Monster Tale, Outland and Aliens: Infestation don't take a page from Metroid.
So I don't really think either side has it that had. The west could stand to get away from annual shooters and Japan could stand to have protagonists in their late 20s, 30s or even older rather than teenagers all the time.
it sort of make s me sad that people thing Bioware's games are the epitome of choice when Elder Scrolls, Shin Megami Tensei (read: NOT Persona) and Deus Ex feel much more rich in gameplay choice on top of story choice. Bioware games tend to just favor story choice or character relationships, but don't feel as dynamic in terms of gameplay and world as those other franchises do.
Many of my 2D favorites this gen have been done by western developers, but they're essentially Japanese in gameplay design. I don't think anyone can argue that Monster Tale, Outland and Aliens: Infestation don't take a page from Metroid.
So I don't really think either side has it that had. The west could stand to get away from annual shooters and Japan could stand to have protagonists in their late 20s, 30s or even older rather than teenagers all the time.
I love both places and both have their gems (lots of good games at TGS)and failures. The main problem with Japan is their bloated corporate structure.
BTW cant we have this a 3 way battle? as eastern european devs like Croteam, Digial Reality and all the other PC indies are starting to outdo east and west with their great looking games with tiny dev teams
BTW cant we have this a 3 way battle? as eastern european devs like Croteam, Digial Reality and all the other PC indies are starting to outdo east and west with their great looking games with tiny dev teams
I think Western games are generally selling better because they're flashier and get to the point whereas Japanese games require more input, there's no instant gratification and you have to put effort in to understand them. To be honest I think both Western and Eastern games have fallen into the trap of overusing tried and testing tropes and gameplay mechanics, mainly because they sell, - a lot of the best-selling Western games may have solid gameplay mechanics and storylines but they're using not brainbusters or particular ground-breaking stories. That said I think both East and West have lots of really creative, original projects in the works - it's just they're ususally small-scale indie ones.
I wish the Japanese had a similar indie business structure to the rest of the world. I think the biggest problem is that Japanese indies / B rank games are relagated to handhelds which many westerners dont play, I like my big screens. I wish more J games where on PC as well.
I wouldn’t call it a divide exactly, there’s definitely a different approach to things and each has their own pros and cons, but I wouldn’t call it a divide, that suggests we all have to pick sides and argue about it, I love ‘em both!
"It's the Economy, Stupid." I honestly think that the Japanese gaming industry has begun to rely on stagnant and cheap tactics mainly because their economy has been in a deep hole for the past decade, and it's not getting any better right now. When a country uses quantitatve easing and destroys the monetary system, companies are going to feel the hurt. They'll pass that hurt down to their customers as well. I think that japanese companies want to change and grow their industry, but the lack of capital is killing them.
Both east and west can produce gems and terrible crap.
Like, the west has produced shiny little diamonds like Elder Scrolls, Little Big Planet, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption, Borderlands etc. And total pieces of shit like the "Imagine" series for DS, tons of movie tie-ins that make people wanna puke etc.
The east came up with gems like Catherine (And SMT: Persona for that matter), Demon Souls, Katamari Damacy, Okami , and everything from Vanillaware, as much as it created shit like Final Fantasy XIII, White Knight Chronicles and a shitload of generic "save the stupid useless princess" RPGs...
Like, the west has produced shiny little diamonds like Elder Scrolls, Little Big Planet, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption, Borderlands etc. And total pieces of shit like the "Imagine" series for DS, tons of movie tie-ins that make people wanna puke etc.
The east came up with gems like Catherine (And SMT: Persona for that matter), Demon Souls, Katamari Damacy, Okami , and everything from Vanillaware, as much as it created shit like Final Fantasy XIII, White Knight Chronicles and a shitload of generic "save the stupid useless princess" RPGs...
The East made great games like Retro Game Challenge, Solatorobo, the Fire Emblem series and various others
but in today's corrupt gaming culture the West is pushing out NOTHING but FPS games and good games from the East like Retro Game Challenge and the Fire Emblem series hardly see a profit, why? because they are overshadowd by way too many fugg'n FPS games and other Brocore rubbish
Wonder why Captain Rainbow or Xenoblade ain't coming here? blame the FPS oversaturation and the hardcore and brocore gamers that made Gaming not as fun as it used to be.
but in today's corrupt gaming culture the West is pushing out NOTHING but FPS games and good games from the East like Retro Game Challenge and the Fire Emblem series hardly see a profit, why? because they are overshadowd by way too many fugg'n FPS games and other Brocore rubbish
Wonder why Captain Rainbow or Xenoblade ain't coming here? blame the FPS oversaturation and the hardcore and brocore gamers that made Gaming not as fun as it used to be.
The East made great games like Retro Game Challenge, Solatorobo, the Fire Emblem series and various others
but in today's corrupt gaming culture the West is pushing out NOTHING but FPS games and good games from the East like Retro Game Challenge and the Fire Emblem series hardly see a profit, why? because they are overshadowd by way too many fugg'n FPS games and other Brocore rubbish
Wonder why Captain Rainbow or Xenoblade ain't coming here? blame the FPS oversaturation and the hardcore and brocore gamers that made Gaming not as fun as it used to be.
but in today's corrupt gaming culture the West is pushing out NOTHING but FPS games and good games from the East like Retro Game Challenge and the Fire Emblem series hardly see a profit, why? because they are overshadowd by way too many fugg'n FPS games and other Brocore rubbish
Wonder why Captain Rainbow or Xenoblade ain't coming here? blame the FPS oversaturation and the hardcore and brocore gamers that made Gaming not as fun as it used to be.
I think both are faltering and stagnating, but in their own ways. Eastern developers seem to be stuck in the past, where a graphical update was all it took to make a new game, while western developers are generally making vapid, high-budget bullshit and just ripping off whatever the new gimmick is.
I think they could both use some shaking up. 40K Space Marine isn't a normal "AAA" title, but it's one of my favorites both for going whole hog with the personality and for having great shooting and great melee combat, which never really happen together. It's the only game I can think of that encourages you to wade into a pile of enemies when your health is low. Demon's Souls has one of the most unique approaches to multiplayer ever, and just an awesome game all around.
I think they could both use some shaking up. 40K Space Marine isn't a normal "AAA" title, but it's one of my favorites both for going whole hog with the personality and for having great shooting and great melee combat, which never really happen together. It's the only game I can think of that encourages you to wade into a pile of enemies when your health is low. Demon's Souls has one of the most unique approaches to multiplayer ever, and just an awesome game all around.
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