What happens when two of the biggest egos in games media sit back and discuss arguably the biggest release in videogame history? We'll let you be the judge of that, as we welcome controversial defense attorney Jack Thompson to The Podcastle to discuss Grand Theft Auto with yours truly.
This week, we have a very short first half as the usual crew of Jim Sterling, Wardrox and Atheistium chat about Grand Theft Auto IV, and announce a special contest -- simply use our Community Blogs and find an inventive way to mix the worlds of Jack Thompson and Grand Theft Auto together. Be it a short story, image, video, song or -- my favorite -- interpretive dance, the best four entries will receive redemption codes from Atheistium, allowing them to download Xbox Live GTA IV picture packs -- for nothing!
Then we introduce the main event, as Jim Sterling speaks to Jack Thompson for the very first time. In this historic event, Jack Thompson actually makes good on his promise to appear on a videogames podcast. How do I manage to keep the volatile attorney on the phone for almost fifty minutes? How do I manage to get even a single word in edgewise? Did Jack Thompson confess that his son plays GTA? All these questions are for you to decide the answers for, but here are the highlights:
Jack Thompson thanked by a gamer? Jacko tells us why.
Jim isn't interested in Jack's testicles.
What is a "murder simulator?" Also, Jack's expert is better than Jim's expert, apparently.
Tom & Jerry needs to be less fun!
What was in Ted Bundy's Xbox?
Jim tries to explain why Take-Two threatening Walmart is a ridiculous idea.
Jack tries to explain why Grand Theft Auto IV is illegal pornography.
Jack asks Jim to file an American lawsuit, even though he's British.
Thompson is a gangsta rap expert.
At least Jim & Jack agree that IGN getting an exclusive review was rubbish.
Jack pushes for the final solution.
"Have I had my Wii Fix?"
Thompson's terrifying vision of the future.
I really hope you enjoy the show, and that I did videogamers and Destructoid proud. I would also like to thank Jack Thompson for his time, despite the nature of his exit, and tip my hat at someone who, I must confess, was a pretty challenging arguer. As always, check out our Podcastle page to listen or download. Alternatively, we can be found on iTunes.
Enjoy.
05/01/2008 17:31
05/01/2008 17:32
05/01/2008 17:34
SPOILERS
05/01/2008 17:34
05/01/2008 17:34
05/01/2008 17:35
05/01/2008 17:36
I don't see how that's possible.
05/01/2008 17:46
05/01/2008 17:49
05/01/2008 17:49
05/01/2008 17:54
And cant believe more that Jim was so fucking CALM (compartively)
05/01/2008 17:55
1. To have Jacko
OR
2. Have Rambo ride a flaming motorcycle through the Gates of Hell while fighting an army of Robo-Hitlers with "Princes of the Universe" by Queen playing in the background.
I know we want the latter but sometimes you gotta take the lesser.
05/01/2008 18:02
So awesome.
05/01/2008 18:15
I'd have loved to see more parental responsibility talked about, as well as the responsibility of the killers themselves, but the end of the cast explains WHY more words couldn't have been gotten in edgewise - he hopes to win his arguments by dominating everyone else and not letting them get a point in. "There's enough blame to go around" is a copout. Amongst the parents who let the guy play the game (IF he was even a juvenile when he started playing it) and the guy himself who felt it was okay to kill someone - he chooses to nitpick at an industry who has little, if any, blame. That's like suing McDonalds for the existence of fat kids, rather than expecting them to put down the burgers, or their parents to keep them out of their hands.
That said, Jack Thompson is a fucking tosser, and I think Jim handled the interview extremely well. He seems to only toss out his hysterical, overblown bullshit when there's no warm body to immediately call him on it (such as telling Jim to go rape children, that was a fun one). I'd have probably just called him a fucking cunt.
05/01/2008 18:19
Win.
05/01/2008 18:27
05/01/2008 18:42
05/01/2008 18:44
05/01/2008 18:47
05/01/2008 18:47
05/01/2008 18:50
05/01/2008 18:51
05/01/2008 18:52
P.s. - Nice touch with the politeness, I would have just called him a cunt and hung up the phone the first time he repeated my name in an attempt to try and quell my rebutles.
05/01/2008 18:52
05/01/2008 18:53
05/01/2008 18:57
05/01/2008 19:02
05/01/2008 19:04
05/01/2008 19:06
05/01/2008 19:12
Jack seemed like he was just all over the place. Keep on topic, he'll stick to it until he felt like going off topic. He entirely skipped around the idea that the world before the modern age as we know it was far more violent than it is today.
He's a fool to believe that todays world is more violent.
I also note. Why the hell was he talking to you as if you had a huge marketing pull with Take Two and every retailer across the US? Have I uncovered some insider information that George Bush goes by Jim Sterling on the internet and has a great ability to mimic the British accent?
But I do have to say. Him trying to get you to stop talking when he's talking was madness. He was practically cutting you off for every sentence you spoke. It's ridiculous.
And I think you made an excellent point with Take Two vs Wal Mart in terms of size and market range... Shortly after that he just became childish.
So for that, I congratulate you on a job well done Jim. You properly held your ground and he just made the same old commentary he always does - he did not even attempt to get off his high horse or even attempt to see things from your point of view as a gamer.
05/01/2008 19:12
Yeah sure u cant control parents at home letting them play but it is sortof fair that if movies in cinemas are restricted then games must be too. Its an arguement that its harmful in excess but so is drink and drugs.
Jack as i said is too fuckign stupid to realise that just becuase it made someone kill another it doesn't mean thats the problem!
Look at his logic for fuck sake! Clearly that guy is fucked up already! Moron what a moron.
Jim realease an article of what youv'e had said i was almost interested, or next time give a 2 min limit between each persons speaking to stop interuption.
I waited for you to say "What a CUNT" at the end Jim you dissapointed me a little...
05/01/2008 19:18
I have been playing games for longer than I can remember. I cannot say I am anywhere near as violent as the average high schooler that did not play games. As a matter of fact, I live my life very passively in terms of violence...
If what he was saying ended up as the truth, the world at large would be in total anarchy. Blocks in every street constantly burning. Mobs attacking federal buildings and police buildings. All of this brought on by the News, Movies and Video Games. But that just is not the case.
Yes games should be more restrictive of who they are sold to. But I think more important than that, parents need to become more aware of what their children are doing. Regardless of what Jack feels Wal-Mart or EB Games should do, the parents ALWAYS have the capability of restricting that access in their own home. And if the child is fleeing home to play it elsewhere because Timmy's mom doesn't know about the game. Then that's a failure on the part of the parents to be more active in their childs daily lives.
We cannot expect TV, Computers, Movies and Video Games to raise our children. Maybe if Jack focused his efforts less on bullying every company who makes a game he doesn't like. Maybe if he stopped threatening to sue police forces or grieving families for a list of computer documents and confiscated items. Maybe if he instead focused his efforts in attempting to educate the parents of this generation on how to restrict mature elements from their children IN GENERAL. Maybe he would have got something done.
05/01/2008 19:22
05/01/2008 19:23
He basically says that there are people out there, that if it weren't for games such as grand theft auto, then they wouldn't have killed.
How can he justify that?
I'm pretty sure when a person sets out to kill someone it's either A. Because they have a motive, or B. Are mentally unstable. - whether they played a game or not is irrelevant.
Also he says that games are training people to kill. But surely by this logic, a shooting gallery at the fair (which is aimed at kids) trains them to kill, as they are training with an air rifle to shoot targets. THEN THE KIDS ARE REWARDED WITH PRIZES FOR THE MORE TARGETS THEY HIT. IT'S SICK.
Perhaps if america stopped selling guns, and changed the law to make it illegal to sell games to minors, there would be less killings. But by the sound of it, Jack Thompson wants neither of these, considering he said the laws were fine.
gah, what an utter cunt.
05/01/2008 19:25
A moderator would have been a good idea. I had to balance myself as a debater with myself as a host. It was a very difficult scenario to be in.
05/01/2008 19:27
I think it was handled in the best way it could've been, for sure.
05/01/2008 19:29
05/01/2008 19:33
He sounded like a parent attempting to scold his child by just saying the childs name.
05/01/2008 19:33
05/01/2008 19:33
05/01/2008 19:36
By Heretic
Jim: Oh boy the weat-
Tom: WAS THAT A QUESTION?
Jim: No I wa-
Tom: YOUR CUTTING ME OFF.......O.K. go
Jim:..um it sure
Tom: IT LOOKS TERRIBLE TODAY!
Jim: I actually think it looks-
Tom: IF YOU CUT ME OFF AGAIN I'M GONNA PUNCH YOU!!
05/01/2008 19:36
05/01/2008 19:41
05/01/2008 19:42
05/01/2008 19:44
BUT... what Jack does bring up, and it's something I don't see from the gaming community, is marketing and the power of PR. This seems to be the soul of his crusade, and I frankly condone it.
*now: liberal "bs"*
We are not free. we are being controlled in every step of the way in out everyday life by our cultural and social situation. Everything in our mind is manipulated by what we see and what we can get a hold of.
Jack talks about behavioral psychology which I find very interesting, as it connects to perceptional psychology, which, in turn, is the primal focus here.
If you strip away all his ignorance about what videogames actually are, there are some psychological and sociological aspects of his arguments that are very, very interesting to look into. The gaming community badly, badly needs to look into these kinds of things before lashing out at Jack Thompson just because of the fact that he obviously haven't played a videogame nor understands the fundamental aspects of interactive media.
Even if you can't stand the guy, look at what he's actually saying. Don't focus on the videogame regulations he's talking about or how he's cutting off Jim all the time; focus on what he's saying about marketing and psychology, because you might find something of value there.
05/01/2008 19:48
I know people are sick of hearing his shit, but if we get rid of him, somebody else will come up, and they might actually be smart enough to be a real problem.
05/01/2008 19:48
I've brought this up before. Sterling apparently believes the people demand it so he's gonna keep doing it.
I don't think people want to hear anymore about this idiot with down syndrome. We know his positions, we know he's wrong. Let him go.
All you're doing is glorifying your own need to obsess over him.
05/01/2008 19:50
05/01/2008 19:51
Then you haven't read the comments here, or the unprecedented 100+ comments to our pre-show post.
There is no supply where there is not demand. I am merely giving my readers what they want.
05/01/2008 19:52
And I'm 22 years old and I watch WWE all the time. I know lots of people my age and older who watch WWE. WWE's biggest demographic are 18 to 25 year old males.
05/01/2008 19:56
I hate that frame of thought that just because someone does something that another person does not - it's suddenly a waste of time.
Breakdancing? Pfft, that's such a waste of time. Going to a bar? Pfft, that's such a waste of time. So on and so forth. It's a self chosen hobby/activity that can vary from playing video games to lending a hand without pay at the elderly home. And it certainly is not a freaking waste of time. It's extremely ignorant for anyone to make that comment.
05/01/2008 19:58
Now with Dolphins (Jack-Dolphins not allowed!!!)
05/01/2008 20:03
How you you expect Jack to be responsible when you clearly are not.
"There is no supply where there is not demand. I am merely giving my readers what they want."
What a community wants vs. what a community needs are two different things. This is exactly what I addressed with my kid in a candy story analogy. You are the parent. It is time to say, "NO." A word that has lost it's meaning to some. The blame is on all of our shoulders for Idiots like Thomson giving them a mouth piece. I am of the position that it is Destructoids goal to improve the Gaming Community. Not to continue the dumbing down of America by saying, "Let them eat Cake." Yeah we all want to come together to say Thomson is stupid but are we that small and unsure of ourselves?
05/01/2008 20:03
I both grew up playing video games and I also grew up shooting real guns. The reason I havent murdered anyone is my parent's taught me right from wrong and that my actions have consequences. Good parenting of course doesnt make healines or keep people like Thompson employed.
05/01/2008 20:05
05/01/2008 20:07
You are the one who told me what the community wants.
I am being reasonable. You have an opinion on what to do with people like Jack. I respect that, but I disagree with you.
05/01/2008 20:10
05/01/2008 20:14
Here is my mark upon this piece of history.
Love,
Re: Evolution.
05/01/2008 20:16
05/01/2008 20:16
05/01/2008 20:34
05/01/2008 20:39
Jim, I love you.
05/01/2008 20:40
I am thinking that since that is the situation. Perhaps you should have told Jack midway through the topic "Since I keep getting interrupted, and apparently interrupting you. We should just start saying "Over" when we are done speaking for that moment."
.. Jack had to have been the rudest bastard ever spoken to courteously. He was interrupting you at every turn, yet when you say anything - even after he's finished a sentence, he starts whining like a child. I felt embarassed for him.
05/01/2008 20:56
05/01/2008 21:08
05/01/2008 21:15
Still, I disagree with his definition of pornography, and I disagree with calling Grand Theft Auto a "murder simulator."
Regardless, well done on keeping your composure Jim.
05/01/2008 21:16
Also, he is a rude babbling cunt and I am surprised a jury could even be patient enough to hear him out. Actually, maybe they weren't and zoned out half-way through the hearing.
Good job, Jim, that was insanely hilarious and informative.
05/01/2008 21:18
05/01/2008 21:22
05/01/2008 21:31
I think the problem is that he goes about the issue all wrong, focusing on the developers/publishers instead of the retailers.
05/01/2008 21:36
"obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit." or something "SEXUALLY EXPLICIT."
god, I really dislike this man. He really does just talk and talk and talk. This wasn't a debate. This was Jack Thompson talking for 5 minutes, Jim Sterling trying to make a point and then Jack Thompson making a smart remark and re-explaining what he just said in the past 5 minutes.
I'm sorry it ended up like this Jim :[
05/01/2008 21:46
great interview however
05/01/2008 21:54
05/01/2008 22:04
05/01/2008 22:15
05/01/2008 22:19
Seems like he doesn't know when to show respect and listen and let you finish your sentences.
If he wants anyone to listen to him, he should be listening to other people and show respect.
05/01/2008 22:26
Unfortunately, making snarky comments over Jack's reasonably well-spoken diatribes (wrong as they might be on some points) might make for entertaining podcasts for Destructoid's target audience, it doesn't do much to advance the idea that game-enthusiasts are a mature demographic appreciating a legitimate art-form. It just makes us seem like a group of petulant, whiny children who can't do anything but immaturely snicker when somebody doesn't know what a 'Wii Fit' is, and a bunch of folks who reflexively and blindly defend against any negative criticism of an industry that we love. I think both of you guys were putting up some pretty weak straw men, and both of you did your part to not advance the conversation in the least. Not that it's all your fault, Jim. Jack is a crazy MF...
05/01/2008 22:39
Also WHO IS GONNA THREATEN WAL-MART!!?? LMFAO
05/01/2008 22:51
05/01/2008 22:55
Correlation does not imply causality.
05/01/2008 23:03
It's called integrity.
So what if they're big companies with lot's of money involved, kids are playing stuff they shouldn't play.
I actually respect Thompson a lot more after actually hearing this back and forth. I think both parties got pretty heated, a lot of interrupting, but that was expected. He's not trying to end video games, he's trying to keep them out of the hands of minors....if we didn't have 'annoying' dudes like him making sure things don't get too out of hand I think games would be a lot more gratuitous with sex and drugs than they are now.
I'm married, and someday soon I'll be a father. I'd be pleased to know that it'd be just as difficult for my kid to get into a strip club as it is for him to do it in a game he shouldn't be playing. And I'd be comforted knowing that my kid won't see advertisements for strip clubs during the commercial breaks, or games that let you go into strip clubs.
I think most peoples' problems with the dude aren't what he does or the court cases he takes on, but his personal ideas about games and media...which are opinions and everyone's entitled to one....right?
Why don't we like this guy again?
05/01/2008 23:04
let me say that again
sevenTEEN eightTEEN and nineTEEN
All of those are classified as an age at which is within the teenager range.
Of course Take 2 will advertise towards teenagers!
And it's not Take 2's obligation to take the blame for selling the games to minors, it's the retailers who don't bother to ID the people in the first place.
Jack needs to take some time aside to rethink his focus. If he wants to make a good impact, he should be looking at the retailers for enforcing the rules or laws about the regulation of sales.
It's not Budweiser's fault for a clerk at a drive through who sold their beer to the minor. It's the clerk's fault. No one else!
05/01/2008 23:19
I mean, I might have heard it wrong, after all I don't speak the language that they do at Crazy Ass-hat University as well as Jack seems to.
05/01/2008 23:23
Here is why: We all agree that selling these games to children is something we have to stop....somehow. Just like stopping to destroy the environment in a reasonable way. So how do we kick things of then? Well, accusing the CEOs of sports cars manufacturers of killing puppies with CO2 would be a way to get heard by the media for starters.
And that's what Jack does to the games industry with a more serious tone. He is "screaming" out loud that there is something wrong with Rockstar.
I think someone like him is needed in order to bring everybody together to discuss these problems..and problems they are. And by discussing it in public a solution can be found that is not as extrem as Jack might like it to be, but has an effect none the less.
And it's ok to feel offended by his often extrem arguments. They should not and will certainly not be the blueprints for new legislation.
That's how things go in a democracy, you start out high and meet in the middle.
On a side note:
50% of the populus in countries like the USA, UK, Germany, France etc. have grown up with videogames by now and we will be much better guides to the generations to come in regards to video games.
05/01/2008 23:27
Jack Thompson's arguments don't hold up to statistical evidence. Violent crime rates in the US have drastically decreased since the 1950s.
When this is data is taken into account Thompson's assumption that video games somehow increase violent tendencies is shown to be erroneous.
This would have been a great counter-point for Jim to bring-up.
05/01/2008 23:27
Respect for your courage taking that person on though, and for handling it as it seems you did.
05/01/2008 23:48
Also, why doesn't anyone tell it like it is when he says that the game rewards you for killing police? When you kill police it actually makes the game far more difficult for you and the longer you live while reeking having the larger the law enforcement squads you will be chased by and eventually even SWAT teams and the Army. That doesn't really sound rewarding to me.
Anyway, we can't take anything this idiot says serious especially when he's calling things pornographic that aren't. I mean going by the logic he uses a woman in a bathing suit would be considered pornographic. How can you call "gangster" rap pornographic? Verbally offensive or obscene, maybe. But pornographic is by definition only pertaining to imagery such as pictures, video, and drawling. Also, pornographic is pretty much defined as sexual intercourse of some kind, but where there is no nudity and actual intercourse of any kind, how can it be pornography?
Every second Jack Thompson was cutting Jim off and after five minute long rants when Jim decided to say something he acted like he was being cut off at every word. Honestly, Jim you should have been more aggressive with him. Why didn't you mention the book Grand Theft Childhood? I mean that's a huge study that goes against his claims and was back by the US government with over one million dollars funding it for over a period of five years I believe.
Also, it was sickening how he completely dismissed the fact that the majority of video game players, violent video game players, have done nothing wrong. I mean he actually had the nerve to say it was probably a higher percentage who've done nothing wrong, but then say it doesn't matter basically saying the mistake of a few should be pushed onto gamers as a whole.
Also, yes, we've heard of Cain and Abel, Jack. But, guess what, not everyone believe in that shit. Not everyone is a fanatical bible thumper, in fact not everyone had a religion. That's absolutely no proof that Cain and Abel, the same ones form the bible, had ever even existed as far as I know.
All of his arguments are nonsense twisting fact. What was his excuse when he was confronted about the FBI's records that had shown that youth violence had been on a drastic downward spiral since the popularity of video games began rising back around the release of the original DOOM? He claimed that the FBI or the schools just weren't reporting it. What a bunch of shit. Also, I liked how he brought up the shit about Postal being advertised to children, which isn't even a main stream video game, and has never once been advertised on television to my knowledge.
Also, I like how he complains about GTA being advertised on WWE programing while WWE's programming is pretty risque a lot of the time itself. Not to mention that during many of WWE's shows alcoholic drinks/beverages are advertise as well between breaks, yet no complaints about that? Odd. I mean, they don't have a problem with that, but they do have a problem with video games being advertised at 8PM-10PM/9PM-11PM? When should video games like GTA be advertised? Midnight on the Spice channel? Get some fucking sense idiot!
05/01/2008 23:51
05/01/2008 23:52
05/01/2008 23:56
Jim, I can't believe you could sit down with him for as long as you did. Not many people would do what you did, so Kudos.
05/02/2008 00:38
he should be a rabbi.
god forbid.
05/02/2008 01:00
05/02/2008 01:22
05/02/2008 01:25
Classic JT.
05/02/2008 02:10