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Interesting article. A few things:
How far are you? Based on the quest you described, that's around level 17ish (Balmora) I felt like around level 32, when you finish your first Act, the story drops significantly - it feels Obisidian rush-job developed KOTOR 2-esque "unfinished". Effectively, it turns into a typical MMO grind after that - the quests aren't interesting, and are still fetchy. I end up speed skipping most of the dialogue because they're elaborate fetch dialogue.
Also, all that dialogue, sunk into the "most expensive game ever", comes at a price: there's no real end-game content. There is one level 50 planet that is being abused by players, 3 warzones (1 of which gets really old because people never actually play Huttball), and 2 Ops (raids). That's about it. I'm skeptical of the future of this game because of how high of a budget the game was in the first place, and how high they've set the bar in terms of content for a future content patch. Do we have to wait until an expansion to get significant content? For a $50 purchase, TOR is GREAT and well worth your cash - as a $15 a month MMO investment after the fact? Not really (would you pay a monthly fee for Mass Effect?).
Second, I'm really glad you went with the cotton candy bit instead of "People keep buying [Final Fantasy games] for a reason...and it's not the riveting gameplay.". You were going to unleash the Mag-fury! <3
How far are you? Based on the quest you described, that's around level 17ish (Balmora) I felt like around level 32, when you finish your first Act, the story drops significantly - it feels Obisidian rush-job developed KOTOR 2-esque "unfinished". Effectively, it turns into a typical MMO grind after that - the quests aren't interesting, and are still fetchy. I end up speed skipping most of the dialogue because they're elaborate fetch dialogue.
Also, all that dialogue, sunk into the "most expensive game ever", comes at a price: there's no real end-game content. There is one level 50 planet that is being abused by players, 3 warzones (1 of which gets really old because people never actually play Huttball), and 2 Ops (raids). That's about it. I'm skeptical of the future of this game because of how high of a budget the game was in the first place, and how high they've set the bar in terms of content for a future content patch. Do we have to wait until an expansion to get significant content? For a $50 purchase, TOR is GREAT and well worth your cash - as a $15 a month MMO investment after the fact? Not really (would you pay a monthly fee for Mass Effect?).
Second, I'm really glad you went with the cotton candy bit instead of "People keep buying [Final Fantasy games] for a reason...and it's not the riveting gameplay.". You were going to unleash the Mag-fury! <3
Yeah, I barely started up TOR last night. The story is keeping me engaged but I don't see it keeping me from WoW for any extended period of time.
I'd be interested in getting this game just because I loved the original KOTR so much. Unfortunately I'm not a fan of MMOs at all. If they offered something like a week long trial demo, I'd give it a shot.
I'm actually forced to question how many MMO's you've tried. WoW had no shortage of lore, as was the case for many MMOs that preceded it. Final Fantasy XI has had a tremendous focus on presentation for years, yet it never came up short on content and exploration in is earliest days like TOR pretty much has.
Story is not everything. Bioware is good at getting someone to spin a good yarn for them and add flavor text options to that experience, but they've yet to show the mastery of gameplay, content and simple joys like exploration that other developers are light years beyond them in. You take a dig at Zelda, but Zelda is has been deeply encouraging exploration and experimentation since the 80s and in recent years its grown to tell fantastic stories .
Skyrim gives you a huge epic world full of history and story, but it never once shoots you down a series of tubes like Bioware games do.
Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution has exploration. Air ducts, shortcuts and ladders and stealth mechanics are practically its porn.
I hate to say it, but as nice as Bioware's games are, they still haven't gotten past Baulder's Gate in terms of crude game design. Its still pretty crude and I can't for the life of me understand why people continue to harp on about how great it is. Story aside, their games are pretty dull.
Worse is they've lost the charm that games like KOTOR and even Dragon Age: Origins had in their characters - mostly because of the mindless need for a voiced protagonist. Sorry, I'll take copious spoonfuls of Morrigan/Allistair-style bickering over one word Hawke has to say. Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes?
They're losing their touch.
Story is not everything. Bioware is good at getting someone to spin a good yarn for them and add flavor text options to that experience, but they've yet to show the mastery of gameplay, content and simple joys like exploration that other developers are light years beyond them in. You take a dig at Zelda, but Zelda is has been deeply encouraging exploration and experimentation since the 80s and in recent years its grown to tell fantastic stories .
Skyrim gives you a huge epic world full of history and story, but it never once shoots you down a series of tubes like Bioware games do.
Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution has exploration. Air ducts, shortcuts and ladders and stealth mechanics are practically its porn.
I hate to say it, but as nice as Bioware's games are, they still haven't gotten past Baulder's Gate in terms of crude game design. Its still pretty crude and I can't for the life of me understand why people continue to harp on about how great it is. Story aside, their games are pretty dull.
Worse is they've lost the charm that games like KOTOR and even Dragon Age: Origins had in their characters - mostly because of the mindless need for a voiced protagonist. Sorry, I'll take copious spoonfuls of Morrigan/Allistair-style bickering over one word Hawke has to say. Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes?
They're losing their touch.
So far, I'm loving the game. I'm nearing the end of my Sith Inquisitor's storyline and I'm still pretty invested into it. It's not as good as the first chapter, but it's still pretty good.
I'm not level 50 yet so I can't really speak about end-game. However, I don't understand why people are complaining about the lack of Operations. Maybe it's because the only other MMO I play is WoW and that usually only has one relevant raid.
I'm not level 50 yet so I can't really speak about end-game. However, I don't understand why people are complaining about the lack of Operations. Maybe it's because the only other MMO I play is WoW and that usually only has one relevant raid.
That was a very nice read. Thanks. Still not a fan of MMOs though. I wish/hope we get a sp sequel eventually.
I crave deep storylines. I hated Borderlands simply because of it's lack of narrative. And that game was awesome.
They should have limited the voice acting. I appreciate their ambition, but apart from the main story I don't need an elaborate "KILL X STAR WARS BOARS" banter from every quest giver.
@Meryc
I retired from raiding in Cata, but in BC and Wrath, there was always more than one relevant raid; and those raids were roughly 2-3 times the size as TOR's Ops. IMO just because you're progressing, that doesn't make all past raids irrelevant; that's what progression is. Additionally, since BC, there were heroic dungeons, which guilds can run for decent low-end raiding gear. Heck, one TOR Op only has one boss.
I feel like they're taking the first "M" out of MMO by neutering end-game like this. It feels more like Phantasy Star Online in terms of grouping than a real MMO.
I've heard people say: WoW had no raids at launch, and Vanilla only had 3 raids total! Well, we're not in 2004 anymore. EA wants to be competetive, and the lack of content will whittle down the amount of people who want $15 taken out of their account every month. Guilds have no real reason to stick around after finishing the two 8-16 player Ops; they'll just go back to the new 25 mans in the new WoW content patch.
I retired from raiding in Cata, but in BC and Wrath, there was always more than one relevant raid; and those raids were roughly 2-3 times the size as TOR's Ops. IMO just because you're progressing, that doesn't make all past raids irrelevant; that's what progression is. Additionally, since BC, there were heroic dungeons, which guilds can run for decent low-end raiding gear. Heck, one TOR Op only has one boss.
I feel like they're taking the first "M" out of MMO by neutering end-game like this. It feels more like Phantasy Star Online in terms of grouping than a real MMO.
I've heard people say: WoW had no raids at launch, and Vanilla only had 3 raids total! Well, we're not in 2004 anymore. EA wants to be competetive, and the lack of content will whittle down the amount of people who want $15 taken out of their account every month. Guilds have no real reason to stick around after finishing the two 8-16 player Ops; they'll just go back to the new 25 mans in the new WoW content patch.
Narrative in an MMO pretty much *doesn't* matter though. By almost definition an MMORPG world is stagnant, each player's actions doesn't amount to much of anything in the grand scheme of things.
Take any of Bioware's earlier (or more specifically pre-EA) works, something like TOR can't even scratch the surface of the narratives those games offered.
If a developer wants to make an MMO, make an MMO. If they want a strong storytelling experience, go single player. From what I've been hearing thus far, one of TOR's biggest weaknesses is how it seemingly can't make up its mind what it wanted to be.
Take any of Bioware's earlier (or more specifically pre-EA) works, something like TOR can't even scratch the surface of the narratives those games offered.
If a developer wants to make an MMO, make an MMO. If they want a strong storytelling experience, go single player. From what I've been hearing thus far, one of TOR's biggest weaknesses is how it seemingly can't make up its mind what it wanted to be.
The difference between WoW and SWTOR isn't lore and overall story. It's personal story and actually giving a crap about your character. You really get to define a personality and try to steer choices to those traits. My paladin had no personality, other than a few emotes. I put personality into my character, but my character had none. Now there is a narrative that is more than just a shallow veil over gameplay. Instead, the gameplay is the means to drive the narrative.
@The Silent Protagonist
"I'm actually forced to question how many MMO's you've tried. WoW had no shortage of lore, as was the case for many MMOs that preceded it."
-I waited for this one to come up. My first MMO was Asheron's Call...then DAoC, Planetside, Everquest 2, etc. I beta tested plenty of the more obscure ones, like Earth & Beyond and The Sims Online. While the setting and "lore" are prevalent in all of these games, they are in no way obligatory, and most people tend to ignore them, altogether. The main sell of this genre has almost always been community.
"Skyrim gives you a huge epic world full of history and story, but it never once shoots you down a series of tubes like Bioware games do."
- I think comparing rigid BioWare narratives to open-ended games like Skyrim is like comparing crepes to regular pancakes -- both are great, and the appeal of either remains subjective. I tend to enjoy more linear storytelling because the themes, morals and conclusions are a bit more centralized. Though I can definitely see the appeal of the "make your own adventure" style that Elder Scrolls games retain.
"Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes?"
-My guess is that was a design choice, not a narrative one. The action in KOTOR (if you can call it that) was often broken up by random conversations with your companions. ME gets rid of that, and saves all character interaction for the central hub that is the Normandy.
I never liked this, either. I think gameplay and storytelling should be seamless, not separated and broken into small chunks. Still, most BioWare games make up for that with strong writing, at least.
"I'm actually forced to question how many MMO's you've tried. WoW had no shortage of lore, as was the case for many MMOs that preceded it."
-I waited for this one to come up. My first MMO was Asheron's Call...then DAoC, Planetside, Everquest 2, etc. I beta tested plenty of the more obscure ones, like Earth & Beyond and The Sims Online. While the setting and "lore" are prevalent in all of these games, they are in no way obligatory, and most people tend to ignore them, altogether. The main sell of this genre has almost always been community.
"Skyrim gives you a huge epic world full of history and story, but it never once shoots you down a series of tubes like Bioware games do."
- I think comparing rigid BioWare narratives to open-ended games like Skyrim is like comparing crepes to regular pancakes -- both are great, and the appeal of either remains subjective. I tend to enjoy more linear storytelling because the themes, morals and conclusions are a bit more centralized. Though I can definitely see the appeal of the "make your own adventure" style that Elder Scrolls games retain.
"Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes?"
-My guess is that was a design choice, not a narrative one. The action in KOTOR (if you can call it that) was often broken up by random conversations with your companions. ME gets rid of that, and saves all character interaction for the central hub that is the Normandy.
I never liked this, either. I think gameplay and storytelling should be seamless, not separated and broken into small chunks. Still, most BioWare games make up for that with strong writing, at least.
I think your making a mistake in thinking Bioware has good story, its not that their story is *good* but the way they bring it to the player.
The way they let the player interact with npc's and the way they make you feel like the hero of the story. But their actual story it self.....well. KOTOR is one of the best games I have ever played and I loved the first Mass Effect...but, ME2 and DA2 were terrible in the story department imo. Again they brought to the player in an tremendous way that few games have achieved but the story's them self are not that good at all.
The way they let the player interact with npc's and the way they make you feel like the hero of the story. But their actual story it self.....well. KOTOR is one of the best games I have ever played and I loved the first Mass Effect...but, ME2 and DA2 were terrible in the story department imo. Again they brought to the player in an tremendous way that few games have achieved but the story's them self are not that good at all.
To each their own. I know this entire article is an opinion, but I don't agree with any of it.
I for one like silent protagonists. It's one of the few storytelling elements that can only be done in a game. It lets you make the character in your head instead of having one spoon fed to you (People without brains need not apply). One you might not like mind you. The character is you in effect. Some people think it's stupid, but I feel it's one of the best ways to give a little control back to the player.
I personally just don't like the idea of taking story telling conventions from movies and pasting them into games. I will admit that some of them work. But this is an interactive medium. The more control the developer takes the less the player has.
I will also add that cut-scenes have and always will be a shitty way to convey a story in an interactive medium. Just cause I hate cut-scenes.
I for one like silent protagonists. It's one of the few storytelling elements that can only be done in a game. It lets you make the character in your head instead of having one spoon fed to you (People without brains need not apply). One you might not like mind you. The character is you in effect. Some people think it's stupid, but I feel it's one of the best ways to give a little control back to the player.
I personally just don't like the idea of taking story telling conventions from movies and pasting them into games. I will admit that some of them work. But this is an interactive medium. The more control the developer takes the less the player has.
I will also add that cut-scenes have and always will be a shitty way to convey a story in an interactive medium. Just cause I hate cut-scenes.
I don't think that SWTOR actually did anything significant with there being narrative, as opposed to how the narrative is presented to the player. It's nothing different in substance, but all in the style. All Bioware did was take what would have been a page or two of text while standing in front of a lifeless looking NPC(WoW for example), and made it all voiced(EQ2 did this as well), and then made interactive cut scenes for them(SWTOR only).
It's the same stuff, it just looks different. This isn't enough to sway me, but apparently it's enough to sway a lot of people.
It's the same stuff, it just looks different. This isn't enough to sway me, but apparently it's enough to sway a lot of people.
@Magnalon
Yeah in BC all of the other raids were relevant, but with the addition of Dragon Soul and Raid Finder there is no real need to do any of the older raids. Raid Finder essentially made every boss a tank and spank and got people gear that at the very least was good enough for the Normal version of Dragon Soul.
But, I can see where you're coming from. On the end-game front Bioware needs to step it up, and I really hope they do with the first content patch.
Yeah in BC all of the other raids were relevant, but with the addition of Dragon Soul and Raid Finder there is no real need to do any of the older raids. Raid Finder essentially made every boss a tank and spank and got people gear that at the very least was good enough for the Normal version of Dragon Soul.
But, I can see where you're coming from. On the end-game front Bioware needs to step it up, and I really hope they do with the first content patch.
@Eficent
"I for one like silent protagonists. It's one of the few storytelling elements that can only be done in a game."
- You've never seen a silent film before? Character development does not require dialogue; other mediums have been doing it for years. I can instantly think of two great examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUush-WrMrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GroDErHIM_0
"I personally just don't like the idea of taking story telling conventions from movies and pasting them into games. I will admit that some of them work. But this is an interactive medium. The more control the developer takes the less the player has."
-Yep, I agree 100%. This medium should definitely take some tips from film (every medium borrows from somewhere), but games are doing it incredibly wrong. Like I said in a previous comment, even BioWare suffers from the habit of breaking up the action to fit in exposition. This is the symptom of those nasty cutscenes, most of the time.
I planned on eventually writing about this very subject, in fact.
"I for one like silent protagonists. It's one of the few storytelling elements that can only be done in a game."
- You've never seen a silent film before? Character development does not require dialogue; other mediums have been doing it for years. I can instantly think of two great examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUush-WrMrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GroDErHIM_0
"I personally just don't like the idea of taking story telling conventions from movies and pasting them into games. I will admit that some of them work. But this is an interactive medium. The more control the developer takes the less the player has."
-Yep, I agree 100%. This medium should definitely take some tips from film (every medium borrows from somewhere), but games are doing it incredibly wrong. Like I said in a previous comment, even BioWare suffers from the habit of breaking up the action to fit in exposition. This is the symptom of those nasty cutscenes, most of the time.
I planned on eventually writing about this very subject, in fact.
@The Silent Protagonist
"Sorry, I'll take copious spoonfuls of Morrigan/Allistair-style bickering over one word Hawke has to say. Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes? "
Because when Bioware made KOTOR they ran their own operations at their own pace. Now everything they make is a rush job just so EA can get the bottom line faster.
"Sorry, I'll take copious spoonfuls of Morrigan/Allistair-style bickering over one word Hawke has to say. Why is it HK-47 and Candarous can provide me all this colorful dialog, but when I thrown Jack and Miranda in a party all I get are boring scenery anecdotes? "
Because when Bioware made KOTOR they ran their own operations at their own pace. Now everything they make is a rush job just so EA can get the bottom line faster.
"Because when Bioware made KOTOR they ran their own operations at their own pace. Now everything they make is a rush job just so EA can get the bottom line faster."
QFT. The fact that the musical mind behind Dragon Age II came out and said "it was a rush job" makes me sad. They're a shadow of their former self.
QFT. The fact that the musical mind behind Dragon Age II came out and said "it was a rush job" makes me sad. They're a shadow of their former self.
Lore =/= story or storytelling.
WoW has tons of lore, most of the early stuff is really good. But they dont TELL you about any of it while playing, and the game encourages skipping dialog(side note, its a much better game if you read quest text). The only time story is ever present is during raids, and the majority of it is in the form of chat emotes that youre not paying attention to because youre you know, in the middle of raiding.
Thats the difference, TOR actually tells a story.
WoW has tons of lore, most of the early stuff is really good. But they dont TELL you about any of it while playing, and the game encourages skipping dialog(side note, its a much better game if you read quest text). The only time story is ever present is during raids, and the majority of it is in the form of chat emotes that youre not paying attention to because youre you know, in the middle of raiding.
Thats the difference, TOR actually tells a story.
SWTOR
Is so boring the story isn`t very interesting at all the world they created is dull and lifeless.The biggest problem for me is the game play its so unresponsive and delayed. I slogged it out to level 35 but got really bored the PVP are crafting are the worst i`ve experenced in a MMO I really don`t understand how such a terrible game has got such high scores.
Is so boring the story isn`t very interesting at all the world they created is dull and lifeless.The biggest problem for me is the game play its so unresponsive and delayed. I slogged it out to level 35 but got really bored the PVP are crafting are the worst i`ve experenced in a MMO I really don`t understand how such a terrible game has got such high scores.
there's plenty of story in wow thats not background lore, it's just no one reads quest text, really the only difference between ToR and wow in the story is ToR has voice acting, dialogue choices and a different tone(wow can have fun with itself at times, bioware in general cannot)
it's really funny that you try and slam the FF series as full of fluff, but thats pretty much the entirety of ToR's "narrative" the story isn't anything to write home about, the characters while interesting at times tend to stick to the background way to much and there's not much controversial stuff about the whole jedi and sith order, there played pretty black and white from what I've seen(sans that one temple near kaas city) but hey fuck final fantasy it's not like that series didn't put story and characterization on the forefront for console rpg's, nope not at all.
it's really funny that you try and slam the FF series as full of fluff, but thats pretty much the entirety of ToR's "narrative" the story isn't anything to write home about, the characters while interesting at times tend to stick to the background way to much and there's not much controversial stuff about the whole jedi and sith order, there played pretty black and white from what I've seen(sans that one temple near kaas city) but hey fuck final fantasy it's not like that series didn't put story and characterization on the forefront for console rpg's, nope not at all.
While I appreciate the sentiment that narrative is important to gameplay, and agree that it is one of four important aspects, I do have to disagree with your assertion that a lot of modern games don't have narrative, and that Bioware is the only studio doing so. Bioshock, Portal, Half-Life, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, I could go on with the titles from producers other than Bioware that have narratives stronger than those in Dragon Age. Also, the fact that you discredit the entire Square-Enix library as "fluff" is insulting.
@doomknight66
The difference in exposition between both games is that TOR's is pretty marginal, whereas FF provides enough senseless background and detail to make Tolkien shit his pants.
For one, the Star Wars universe is easy to grasp, as is its narrative. The simple hero's journey that SW portrays is a very easy and effective blueprint for telling an interesting adventure story. That's why the majority of everyone's favorite games/films use it.
FF delivers story, background, character development, and overall exposition in the same way that a third-grader would bake a cake -- by throwing in every possible item they can think of.
I could go on for hours about the flaws of FF's story (or the majority of game stories, for that matter), so perhaps I'll save it for a future article or something.
The difference in exposition between both games is that TOR's is pretty marginal, whereas FF provides enough senseless background and detail to make Tolkien shit his pants.
For one, the Star Wars universe is easy to grasp, as is its narrative. The simple hero's journey that SW portrays is a very easy and effective blueprint for telling an interesting adventure story. That's why the majority of everyone's favorite games/films use it.
FF delivers story, background, character development, and overall exposition in the same way that a third-grader would bake a cake -- by throwing in every possible item they can think of.
I could go on for hours about the flaws of FF's story (or the majority of game stories, for that matter), so perhaps I'll save it for a future article or something.
@Ryan Perez
I could go on and on about how terrible biowares recycled story's and story's are to, and final fantasy story's are filled with senseless background and detail? bro final fantasy 13 isn't every final fantasy, i think you got bioware story's mixed up with final fantasy's I could fill a phone book up with pointless shit in mass effect hell go look at it's tvtropes page.
I could go on and on about how terrible biowares recycled story's and story's are to, and final fantasy story's are filled with senseless background and detail? bro final fantasy 13 isn't every final fantasy, i think you got bioware story's mixed up with final fantasy's I could fill a phone book up with pointless shit in mass effect hell go look at it's tvtropes page.
@Ryan and Kanten - we can come up for explanations bt the meat of character charm is now notably absent from Bioware's games, but the simple truth is when you make so much room for two people voicing a version of Shepard as well as Hawke, there's a lot less room for the characters around them to have as much screen time.
The voice protagonist is the most guilty element here. The ship in KOTOR and the camp in DA:O were also hubs for talking to your entire party members, too, but that didn't stop it from happening out on the field with who you chose to bring along.
The fact that Shepard and Hawke are alloted so much more dialog means the other characters do indeed get a smaller piece of the pie. Jack and Miranda should, in theory be constantly going at it, but instead they just have it out in one scene.
As for my complaints about exploration. I'm not asking Bioware to take on the open world, but it their games don't even rank well aganst Deus Ex or Zelda in this regard. Its actually rather flabbergasting that they maintained this restrictive form of navigation for an MMORPG. An MMO is supposed to be a living-breathing world, not a series of set pieces.
FFXI had sectioned off zones, but they were huge and interesting to explore, not something that carted me from one plot point to the next. Bioware made a good choice for avoiding loading issues, but that's about it in that regard. An MMO should be a bit more open than TOR is, though, so I can't champion it in this regard.
People do like to roam about a little and discover things. It might not be fun to everyone, but it is fun for a lot of people. Mass Effect's exploration was obviously horrible, but the solution for mineral searching in ME2 was equally as boring and the random on-planet stuff was just drab.
Bioware never bothers to improve these areas and with the deadlines EA pushes on them now, I somewhat doubt they ever will. At the very least, Bethesda has the stones to tell Zenimax "no" to a new Elder Scrolls game every two years, Bioware would do well to start taking their time and improving their craft.
I don't hate Bioware, but there's just so much wasted potential in that studio.
The voice protagonist is the most guilty element here. The ship in KOTOR and the camp in DA:O were also hubs for talking to your entire party members, too, but that didn't stop it from happening out on the field with who you chose to bring along.
The fact that Shepard and Hawke are alloted so much more dialog means the other characters do indeed get a smaller piece of the pie. Jack and Miranda should, in theory be constantly going at it, but instead they just have it out in one scene.
As for my complaints about exploration. I'm not asking Bioware to take on the open world, but it their games don't even rank well aganst Deus Ex or Zelda in this regard. Its actually rather flabbergasting that they maintained this restrictive form of navigation for an MMORPG. An MMO is supposed to be a living-breathing world, not a series of set pieces.
FFXI had sectioned off zones, but they were huge and interesting to explore, not something that carted me from one plot point to the next. Bioware made a good choice for avoiding loading issues, but that's about it in that regard. An MMO should be a bit more open than TOR is, though, so I can't champion it in this regard.
People do like to roam about a little and discover things. It might not be fun to everyone, but it is fun for a lot of people. Mass Effect's exploration was obviously horrible, but the solution for mineral searching in ME2 was equally as boring and the random on-planet stuff was just drab.
Bioware never bothers to improve these areas and with the deadlines EA pushes on them now, I somewhat doubt they ever will. At the very least, Bethesda has the stones to tell Zenimax "no" to a new Elder Scrolls game every two years, Bioware would do well to start taking their time and improving their craft.
I don't hate Bioware, but there's just so much wasted potential in that studio.
I for one wish people would stop trying to suck Bioware off for what are (compared to other mediums) extremely sophomoric stories. And can't we please take that goddammed KOTOR plot twist off its pedestal already? KOTOR II had a story that was as a whole superior to the original. The only thing Bioware is good at is formula, a formula that got tiring around Baldur's Gate 2.
@The Silent Protagonist
Have you been playing TOR for long? The worlds actually get pretty large, and there are plenty of things to explore and seek out. I find it a rather nice break whenever I attempt to locate the five hidden datacrons in each planet.
@Klay
"I for one wish people would stop trying to suck Bioware off for what are (compared to other mediums) extremely sophomoric stories."
-You basically sum up the majority of game stories there, I think -- not just BioWare.
Compared to other mediums, 99% games have trite stories. Unfortunately, most people like to avoid comparing games to other mediums for this very reason. It's like breaking a cripple's legs, I guess.
Have you been playing TOR for long? The worlds actually get pretty large, and there are plenty of things to explore and seek out. I find it a rather nice break whenever I attempt to locate the five hidden datacrons in each planet.
@Klay
"I for one wish people would stop trying to suck Bioware off for what are (compared to other mediums) extremely sophomoric stories."
-You basically sum up the majority of game stories there, I think -- not just BioWare.
Compared to other mediums, 99% games have trite stories. Unfortunately, most people like to avoid comparing games to other mediums for this very reason. It's like breaking a cripple's legs, I guess.
@Ryan
"You basically sum up the majority of game stories there, I think -- not just BioWare."
I think the problem is that unlike most devs, Bioware games tend to be considered great storytelling by some gamers, when really it doesn't do much more than any other game.
I can't speak for TOR but with previous Bioware titles, the main story tends to be wafer thin. That leaves the character development. As time has gone on, each game tends to have less interaction with the characters in favor of putting all the focus on the main character.
Problem is, the main character is usually dull as dishwater. Because that character is meant to be what you use to interact with the world. You make the character and pick his/her history. There's little left to explore.You know everything about him or her.
Honestly, there's more and more games that have equally good storylines and that's only going to improve. While Bioware continues to use the same set up they've been using for years now.
I haven't seen a genuine step forward from them in terms of storytelling for a long, log time time.
"You basically sum up the majority of game stories there, I think -- not just BioWare."
I think the problem is that unlike most devs, Bioware games tend to be considered great storytelling by some gamers, when really it doesn't do much more than any other game.
I can't speak for TOR but with previous Bioware titles, the main story tends to be wafer thin. That leaves the character development. As time has gone on, each game tends to have less interaction with the characters in favor of putting all the focus on the main character.
Problem is, the main character is usually dull as dishwater. Because that character is meant to be what you use to interact with the world. You make the character and pick his/her history. There's little left to explore.You know everything about him or her.
Honestly, there's more and more games that have equally good storylines and that's only going to improve. While Bioware continues to use the same set up they've been using for years now.
I haven't seen a genuine step forward from them in terms of storytelling for a long, log time time.
@The Silent Protagonist
The silent protagonists in the KOTOR series, Jade Empire, and DAO suck. Why? Because they made the conversations sound wooden and the main character be less human. In fact, a voiced hero can add actions to the dialogue as well as body language, bringing more emotion to the conversation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPEDFSw-ovU
In fact, the characters in ME, ME2, and DAII are BETTER than the ones in the past as well. Why? Much better character development, and much better plot relevance. In fact, in KOTOR, JE, and DAO, the characters outside the main two or three are useless to the plot an are basically talking codex entries. In DAO, the most overrated Bioware game ever, the only character that matters is Alistair, everyone else is useless window dressing who adds little to the plot. Plus, they lack all sorts of character development outside the conversations and the companion quests are weak. And have you played ME and ME2? You can talk with the crew mates just as you can in KOTOR, but they ALSO have more thought out character quests. In DAII, you lose those conversations BUT the cast of DAII either participates in the plot (sibling, Aveline, Varric, Sebastian, Anders, Isabela) or ties together with the plots themes (Merrill and Fenris) Plus they have THREE ME2 style companion quests which allows their characters to be fleshed out and their characters to be developed properly. Nevermind the fact that characters in new Bioware games are more multidimensional and more human like, as well as better written. Miranda and Jack are multidimensional characters with great character development, HK47 and Canderous, just one dimensional color characters. It was Obsidian that added dimensions to them.
And a character like Tali is the most complete character in Bioware history.
The silent protagonists in the KOTOR series, Jade Empire, and DAO suck. Why? Because they made the conversations sound wooden and the main character be less human. In fact, a voiced hero can add actions to the dialogue as well as body language, bringing more emotion to the conversation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPEDFSw-ovU
In fact, the characters in ME, ME2, and DAII are BETTER than the ones in the past as well. Why? Much better character development, and much better plot relevance. In fact, in KOTOR, JE, and DAO, the characters outside the main two or three are useless to the plot an are basically talking codex entries. In DAO, the most overrated Bioware game ever, the only character that matters is Alistair, everyone else is useless window dressing who adds little to the plot. Plus, they lack all sorts of character development outside the conversations and the companion quests are weak. And have you played ME and ME2? You can talk with the crew mates just as you can in KOTOR, but they ALSO have more thought out character quests. In DAII, you lose those conversations BUT the cast of DAII either participates in the plot (sibling, Aveline, Varric, Sebastian, Anders, Isabela) or ties together with the plots themes (Merrill and Fenris) Plus they have THREE ME2 style companion quests which allows their characters to be fleshed out and their characters to be developed properly. Nevermind the fact that characters in new Bioware games are more multidimensional and more human like, as well as better written. Miranda and Jack are multidimensional characters with great character development, HK47 and Canderous, just one dimensional color characters. It was Obsidian that added dimensions to them.
And a character like Tali is the most complete character in Bioware history.
I came at this article much like The Silent Protagonist did. I thought to myself, okay I guess ... Bioware isn't really doing anything new here. Final Fantasy XI basically set out with the exclusive goal of making an MMO that actually had substantial story and cutscenes, since none of them ever did. I thought to myself, okay well maybe he just never played FFXI? That's alright, so TOR is his first exposure to an MMO with a story, I'll give him a pass.
Then I saw that you actually went out of your way to include a jab specifically at the entire Final Fantasy series, the one I thought you just didn't play. Now I'm certain that you're either a complete fanboy, or a troll.
Then I saw that you actually went out of your way to include a jab specifically at the entire Final Fantasy series, the one I thought you just didn't play. Now I'm certain that you're either a complete fanboy, or a troll.
@Static Jack
"can't speak for TOR but with previous Bioware titles, the main story tends to be wafer thin. That leaves the character development. As time has gone on, each game tends to have less interaction with the characters in favor of putting all the focus on the main character.
Problem is, the main character is usually dull as dishwater. Because that character is meant to be what you use to interact with the world. You make the character and pick his/her history. There's little left to explore.You know everything about him or her. "
WRONG...it may be true that the characters have less interaction with the protagonist however, in their place are fully fleshed out companion quests which instead of getting ham fisted character development by dialogue alone, you witness the effects of the world on their character and they get development from that. Take Merrill for example, you can't convince her that the path she is leading is wrong, the consequences of her companion quest do, you can only influence what she learns.
FACT: ME2 was THE most character driven game in Bioware history, in fact the 12 companions as well as the crew ARE the plot. The story and outcome revolves around their fate. And while DAII may have the least interactive cast, the characters from start to finish develop MORE and BETTER than any other Bioware game that has come before. The problem with DAII is that it was rushed Obsidian style.
"can't speak for TOR but with previous Bioware titles, the main story tends to be wafer thin. That leaves the character development. As time has gone on, each game tends to have less interaction with the characters in favor of putting all the focus on the main character.
Problem is, the main character is usually dull as dishwater. Because that character is meant to be what you use to interact with the world. You make the character and pick his/her history. There's little left to explore.You know everything about him or her. "
WRONG...it may be true that the characters have less interaction with the protagonist however, in their place are fully fleshed out companion quests which instead of getting ham fisted character development by dialogue alone, you witness the effects of the world on their character and they get development from that. Take Merrill for example, you can't convince her that the path she is leading is wrong, the consequences of her companion quest do, you can only influence what she learns.
FACT: ME2 was THE most character driven game in Bioware history, in fact the 12 companions as well as the crew ARE the plot. The story and outcome revolves around their fate. And while DAII may have the least interactive cast, the characters from start to finish develop MORE and BETTER than any other Bioware game that has come before. The problem with DAII is that it was rushed Obsidian style.
@Klay Fuller
While KOTOR II was better written in some aspects, as a whole, the first game was put together FAR better and the plot itself was simply better. Nevermind the completely sucktacular ending that even the restoration mod doesn't fix.
In fact Obsidian is overrated at storytelling more so than Bioware. Chris Avellone has lost is touch from his masterpiece Planescape Torment. Their games are dry as a bone and for the most part, lack emotion. While Mask of the Betrayer and most of Fallout New Vegas were great. KOTOR II, NWN2 vanilla and Zehir were lacking and Alpha Protocol was fucking terrible. And if you want to talk sophomoric, lets talk about Alpha Protocol.....lol
While KOTOR II was better written in some aspects, as a whole, the first game was put together FAR better and the plot itself was simply better. Nevermind the completely sucktacular ending that even the restoration mod doesn't fix.
In fact Obsidian is overrated at storytelling more so than Bioware. Chris Avellone has lost is touch from his masterpiece Planescape Torment. Their games are dry as a bone and for the most part, lack emotion. While Mask of the Betrayer and most of Fallout New Vegas were great. KOTOR II, NWN2 vanilla and Zehir were lacking and Alpha Protocol was fucking terrible. And if you want to talk sophomoric, lets talk about Alpha Protocol.....lol
@Ryan - Hey Ryan! Wonderful article. I'm still mad that I can't play The Old Republic since I have a MAC laptop :(
Anywhoo, I was just curious about something you wrote in your article, and, if you wouldn't mind, would love to hear some clarification. You stated that, when discussing Assassin's Creed: "Did they really have to put science fiction in this?" What do you mean by that? Do you mean that they should have just kept it a "period piece" without the science fiction element? The sci-fi element is jarring and not told as well? Thanks for taking the time to read this comment!
- C.H.
Anywhoo, I was just curious about something you wrote in your article, and, if you wouldn't mind, would love to hear some clarification. You stated that, when discussing Assassin's Creed: "Did they really have to put science fiction in this?" What do you mean by that? Do you mean that they should have just kept it a "period piece" without the science fiction element? The sci-fi element is jarring and not told as well? Thanks for taking the time to read this comment!
- C.H.
Without getting into the KoTor vs. ME vs. DA:O discussion going on, I want to point out that I'd never considered what TexasGoldRush had to say about Dragon Age II.
When I reviewed it, I thought the characters were interesting (if a bit too broadly drawn), and I missed the sheer amount of different conversations available in Origin. I'd never considered just how large an impact the supporting cast has on the plot, especially compared to Origins.
That's a huge point of difference, and worth keeping in mind. Thanks for that.
When I reviewed it, I thought the characters were interesting (if a bit too broadly drawn), and I missed the sheer amount of different conversations available in Origin. I'd never considered just how large an impact the supporting cast has on the plot, especially compared to Origins.
That's a huge point of difference, and worth keeping in mind. Thanks for that.
Hey, I resent Final Fantasy being considered fluff. Yeah it has it's moments of.....weirdness. But I'm (personally) sick of Star Wars and George Lucas. I will take my Japaness fluff (thank you) over Lucas's beat-to-death-until-everything-once-love-about-star-wars-is-gone, approach to story telling.
So...HA!
So...HA!
IMHO, The Secret World is going to OBLITERATE SWTOR in terms of storytelling. For one thing, missions are set up so that you are actively uncovering lore and plot through gameplay. More importantly, the project is being headed by Ragnar Tornquist, the writer and director of The Longest Journey and its sequel Dreamfall. Those two games (especially the former), besides being two of the best adventure games of all time, are god-tier in terms of writing, dialogue, and characterization.
@CH Gorog
Thank you for the compliments! You pretty much answered your own question: I think keeping AC as a period piece would have been a stronger decision.
The first and biggest reason is because you wouldn't have the conflicting narratives between Demond and Ezio. While both share a common goal (the Apple of Eden), it often feels like two different stories are being told; Desmond is almost entirely focused on the Templars and his issues with Animus addiction, whereas Ezio is commonly caught up in the violent corruption of wherever he's located (Italy, Turkey), which is a more interesting premise that lends itself better to gameplay.
Secondly, most of the development (and intrigue) lie solely with the assassin characters. We still know little to nothing about Desmond (unless you did the peculiar bonus puzzles in Revalations), yet most AC fans can explain Ezio like the back of their own hand. Ezio is intelligent, noble, empathetic, incredibly horny, and an overall great character. He's pretty memorable; heck, I have a framed picture of him on my wall.
Thirdly, it'd be nice to see more games that can admirably make a fun and interesting experience out of a specific moment in history without taking the easy route of adding sci-fi or fantasy elements. I imagine developers/storytellers typically do this because it's easier to fill in holes when you can make things up on the fly -- such is the case with those two genres.
Red Dead Redemption stands out to me because of this. Rockstar did a lot of research to ensure the game faithfully portrayed the early 1900s, and it worked beautifully. Most other companies would have likely added dragons or space aliens for one reason or another.
Thank you for the compliments! You pretty much answered your own question: I think keeping AC as a period piece would have been a stronger decision.
The first and biggest reason is because you wouldn't have the conflicting narratives between Demond and Ezio. While both share a common goal (the Apple of Eden), it often feels like two different stories are being told; Desmond is almost entirely focused on the Templars and his issues with Animus addiction, whereas Ezio is commonly caught up in the violent corruption of wherever he's located (Italy, Turkey), which is a more interesting premise that lends itself better to gameplay.
Secondly, most of the development (and intrigue) lie solely with the assassin characters. We still know little to nothing about Desmond (unless you did the peculiar bonus puzzles in Revalations), yet most AC fans can explain Ezio like the back of their own hand. Ezio is intelligent, noble, empathetic, incredibly horny, and an overall great character. He's pretty memorable; heck, I have a framed picture of him on my wall.
Thirdly, it'd be nice to see more games that can admirably make a fun and interesting experience out of a specific moment in history without taking the easy route of adding sci-fi or fantasy elements. I imagine developers/storytellers typically do this because it's easier to fill in holes when you can make things up on the fly -- such is the case with those two genres.
Red Dead Redemption stands out to me because of this. Rockstar did a lot of research to ensure the game faithfully portrayed the early 1900s, and it worked beautifully. Most other companies would have likely added dragons or space aliens for one reason or another.
@The Silent Protagonist
I have to beg to differ in that regard. The guilty element is almost certainly the development cycle. DA:O was in development for over 4 years, while DA2 got barely 18 months. When the game is rushed through production at a breakneck pace, it results is massive cuts to what EA considers "unnecessary content" (i.e. story, dialogue).
Mass Effect was produced at Bioware's own pace, and gave us a vast wealth of characters and atmosphere and a sizeable amount of interaction between the characters, even in the presence of a voiced lead. ME2 was another standard EA "put it out in 2 years or not at all" project which then gave us a bland, linear storyline, characters with barely any dialogue and a Citadel barely bigger than a closet.
Bioware's massive faults in the last two years can be traced to a publisher hamfistedly rushing projects through in less than half the time they require and constantly diluting the RPG aspect to chase after a "CoD RPG" audience that doesn't exist.
I have to beg to differ in that regard. The guilty element is almost certainly the development cycle. DA:O was in development for over 4 years, while DA2 got barely 18 months. When the game is rushed through production at a breakneck pace, it results is massive cuts to what EA considers "unnecessary content" (i.e. story, dialogue).
Mass Effect was produced at Bioware's own pace, and gave us a vast wealth of characters and atmosphere and a sizeable amount of interaction between the characters, even in the presence of a voiced lead. ME2 was another standard EA "put it out in 2 years or not at all" project which then gave us a bland, linear storyline, characters with barely any dialogue and a Citadel barely bigger than a closet.
Bioware's massive faults in the last two years can be traced to a publisher hamfistedly rushing projects through in less than half the time they require and constantly diluting the RPG aspect to chase after a "CoD RPG" audience that doesn't exist.
People keep talking about the lack of end-game content. Yes, ToR does not have anything close to WoW in terms of end-game. But I believe that people will continue to play and pay the sub. fees because of the story lines. IMO, end-game content is not needed right now because of the awesome story lines that go along with each class.
As a loyal WoW player since March 2006, this is what separates LoR from WoW. I love WoW, but you never get any personality or real growing experience with your character. You just go with the flow. You feel like your character is lost in the fray of the world. In LoR, you feel like you are molding your character and you're going on a real journey. That's the revolution of this game.
I keep hearing people say "there's no end-game, so people probably won't continue to subscribe." I really think those people are underestimating the importance of leveling a character with their own unique story that they make decisions on. I really think people will continue to subscribe to make new characters, which will give Bioware enough time to make the end-game content that people are fussing over.
IMO, WoW finally has competition. The story-telling in an MMO is what makes this game revolutionary. I never realized how empty my WoW toons were until I started playing this game.
As a loyal WoW player since March 2006, this is what separates LoR from WoW. I love WoW, but you never get any personality or real growing experience with your character. You just go with the flow. You feel like your character is lost in the fray of the world. In LoR, you feel like you are molding your character and you're going on a real journey. That's the revolution of this game.
I keep hearing people say "there's no end-game, so people probably won't continue to subscribe." I really think those people are underestimating the importance of leveling a character with their own unique story that they make decisions on. I really think people will continue to subscribe to make new characters, which will give Bioware enough time to make the end-game content that people are fussing over.
IMO, WoW finally has competition. The story-telling in an MMO is what makes this game revolutionary. I never realized how empty my WoW toons were until I started playing this game.
Also, other MMOs that tried to compete against WoW had to steal players directly from WoW to compete. While ToR does still need to steal players from WoW (and has started to steal WoW players), ToR is doing more than just stealing current MMO players -- As this article suggests, there are a number of gamers that detested MMOs in the past, but are now trying and enjoying ToR. So Bioware is really making an MMO for a whole new audience. They're expanding the MMO market.
SWTOR: is as bare bones a MMO as you can get. The pursuit of story and the laughable dedication to having everything voice acted have resulted in a very constricted experience.
Most MMO's I've played, and I've been playing since Everquest, are open experiences with multiple places to go per level and varied content. SWTOR basically has 2 paths, 1 per faction, and even those paths overlap content at various points. If you don't like the area you're in too bad because that's the only area you get. There's no depth here, and replayability to experienced these treasured stories is crippled by having to replay the exact same areas each time.
Most MMO's I've played, and I've been playing since Everquest, are open experiences with multiple places to go per level and varied content. SWTOR basically has 2 paths, 1 per faction, and even those paths overlap content at various points. If you don't like the area you're in too bad because that's the only area you get. There's no depth here, and replayability to experienced these treasured stories is crippled by having to replay the exact same areas each time.
@D3v
You must have missed the part where I said "it's not 2004" anymore.
You can't come out with a game on the PS3 today that looks like a launch PS1 game and expect it to do well. Old standards shouldn't be applied in a market where the game is competing with other titles that have risen above those standards. Its bad business.
You must have missed the part where I said "it's not 2004" anymore.
You can't come out with a game on the PS3 today that looks like a launch PS1 game and expect it to do well. Old standards shouldn't be applied in a market where the game is competing with other titles that have risen above those standards. Its bad business.
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