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The good ol' game bloggers versus game journalists debate has been a topic of discussion here for as long as I can remember.

Lately though, we have seen the blogosphere really blow up and become immensely popular thanks to like-minded individuals similar to yourself who think that gaming doesn't always need to be serious business. As we always say, you can't win a Pulitzer for writing about Princess Peach.

The Reboot has gathered three knowledgeable games industry insiders to discuss this very argument: Ron "Greybush" Workman, formerly of Dtoid and founding member of this fine community; Sid Shuman, senior editor for GamePro; and Larry Hyrb aka Major Nelson.

After hearing what they had to say, has your stance been changed in any way?


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42 comments | showing # 1 to 42

Transbot's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:15
Transbot
Dying format versus the future?
nintendoll's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:17
nintendoll
You know this was in the cblogs yesterday, right?
Jordan Devore's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:20
Jordan Devore
@nintendoll - uh, yeah.
topgeargorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:23
topgeargorilla
This argument is so stupid. First of all, it's not just game journalism right now that is going through these problems, it's journalism as a whole. Music,film, newspapers, news magazines are all going through this problem.

Now: gaming publications need to change what they publish. Features features features. These are the type of stories that blogs cannot or will not bother doing. Behind the scenes features, Q&As, massive previews, opinion pages, etc. are all options for print magazines. I also think that people in the print realm need to have proper journalistic experience and professionalism.

As for blogs: there is a place for them. That's why I'm here. Personally, I feel the community of Dtoid, the one on one interaction between the editors and the community is the driving factor behind its popularity.

News does not always need to be snarky. That needs to change at some point for blogs. As much as we like the "fun" way of doing things, at some point things have to change.

As for Ron Workman, I absolutaly disagree. There is a place for print. There is a place for print and professionalism. Just as much, there is a place for opinion and editorializing that you see in all blogs, gaming or otherwise. Why else would they be here?

Also, Workman no longer being a part of any blog undermines his argument. Numbers are great, are really cool, but do not state the health of an industry. There is a market for a plurality of voices; Workman's is not the only one.
NotAZombie's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:26
NotAZombie
Jimbo, your internet famous!
VixenFox's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:32
VixenFox
All 3 of the fellas make good points.

If I'm lookin' for a quick "info" fix I'll head to a site like this one.

But if I'm looking for a well written article or story on a certain game, the magazines do a MUCH better job than a site like Destructoid.

There's room for both formats in my little world. :)
Xhumation's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 13:36
Xhumation
When it comes to news coverage...yeah, print's dead and traditional jornalism is dead.

The ability of sites like Destructoid to cover a story live or seconds after it's happened is a dream for anyone that's searching for information. the wait is over.

And yes this blogs can be a little biased but those of us who visit these websites are looking for that biased, the opinion of true gamer. Also tradional journalism can biased too or in the worst of scenario is "bought out" (Gamespot).

The Blogs give the information a personal touch, that traditional gaming journalism lacks.
Fusiontr's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:00
Fusiontr
I only actually read Edge and Games TM mainly because they have some great features and engaging articles

news print journalism for games and music is dead
But for things like features and interviews, the print magazines tend to have some really good ones
Im OK's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:00
Im OK
Without having watched the video, I think you guys just need to keep doing what you do here, and anyone who thinks otherwise can go suck a fat one. And if others still want to try their hand and ink-on-paper "serious" journalism, more power to them, I guess.

@nintendoll

This.
Gamer Named Tim's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:04
Gamer Named Tim
@ topFAPgearFAPgorillaFAP:

Well played, sir.

I grew up reading gaming magazines before gaming blogs started taking over the world. That said, I will continue to subscribe to my favorite magazines. Ya know, for nostalgia purposes. Plus, you can't read Dtoid on the crapper... Well, I can't anyways.
Im OK's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:05
Im OK
Also, when did Workman leave Destructoid? I must not have been paying attention when this happened or something.
mix's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:08
mix
@Im OK

IT's news to me as well!
Simmons 2pt0's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:19
Simmons 2pt0
Gamepro as a respected magazine?

They've got their facts wrong somewhere.
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:43
Sharpless
@Nintendoll
The c-blogs are irrelevant to the front page. Come on, you should know better, girl.
Snake726's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 14:48
Snake726
Print does nothing a blog can't...like I said in the c-blogs they're both places to put words, no matter what misconceptions GamePro guy has about the format.
Concerns of a Merchant's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 15:12
Concerns of a Merchant
Yeah, you can't win a Pulitzer writing about Princess Peach, but she is hardly the only story in this industry.

The problem with bloggers like you is that you're goddamn lazy. There are plenty of fascinating stories in the biz, but you don't want to cover them. All you do is recycle someone else's story, add your own fanboy-baiting spin, and then write a poorly crafted 200 word comment usually ending with a question for the comment section dorks (myself included) to fight it out. Any half-conscious GameStop employee could do what you do.
And don't think for a second that you're "independent". You are 100 percent dependent upon your ability to generate quick clicks for your advertisers, hence the cheaply produced garbage you peddle on this site.
randombullseye's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 15:24
randombullseye
@Nintendoll

The front page on the weekends comes from Cblogs. News and videos from three or four days ago is front page news, today!
Niero's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 15:40
Niero
@ Concerns of a Merchant

You're so wrong its embarrassing.

1. Destructoid is independent. We're not owned by a megacorp publisher. We have no Venture Capital company. We run this shit on the fumes of our enthusiasm. This is our small business run it with a variety of freelance editors that live all over the US and UK. We don't have a sales team. It is outsourced to networks. Sure, we are dependent on income to sustain what we do ... but what business doesn't? Dtoid is different. Don't forget it.

2. You've got nerve calling our editors lazy. We travel all around the world to gaming events, constantly produce original features, and update site Mon-Fri on a nearly 20 minute basis.

Blogging is a microformat. Nobody wants to read a 5 page editorial on how brilliant Peter Molyneux is online. You get in, get the news, and discuss. You get quick perspectives and move on to the other 300 things happening in the industry. Its (brace yourself) more fun this way for many of to consume gaming news. Hell, if you read our Twitter feed I think you're head might explode.

You either get it, or you don't. If you don't appreciate, we're not for you. But don't come peddling your uninformed bullshit on my doorstep if you don't know the difference.
CountingConflict's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 15:41
CountingConflict
One determining factor in this entire argument is that magazines are 30 days old (or more) by the time they hit the news stands. Most of the garbage I read in EGM and GI are things that I've heard over a month ago on Destructoid or Kotaku.

Also, I don't need to know which direction Ed Boon wipes his ass. I only need to know that he's making another Mortal Kombat. Is there much else to the story? No.

People who read videogame "journalism" take this industry way too seriously. Are unbiased reviews and hard hitting investigative journalism really what the industry needs to thrive? People have emotions and opinions, and the greatest thing about living in our country is that we can express them freely. That's what a blogger specializes in doing.

@Concerns of a Merchant
This site isn't driven by the need to produce ad revenue. It is only a means to an end for Niero and crew. If you ever talk to the guy, you'd realize that Destructoid was based purely on his passion for video gaming.

We also have some of the best writers/features in the industry. Look at where some of our alumni have gone to work before shoveling more crap out of your mouth.
CountingConflict's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 15:51
CountingConflict
Damn you Niero >.<

One minute before me!
Alexradl's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 16:05
Alexradl
I haven't picked up a gaming magazine in years. Like CoutingConflict said, all/most of the news in the magazine is at least a month old, so magazines have become irrelevant (to me, at least).

topFAPgearFAPgorillaFAP:

"News does not always need to be snarky. That needs to change at some point for blogs. As much as we like the "fun" way of doing things, at some point things have to change."

Why does it need to change? There are plenty of "professional" news sites/blogs out there. I, for one, enjoy the laid back, more personal sites/blogs (like Dtoid). There is certainly room for both.
The Grudge's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 16:56
The Grudge
Printed media cannot compete with the up-to-the-moment-ness of websites like Destructoid, but I will say that there are still magazines subscriptions I have that I feel are great due to their features and the simple fact that I can read it away from a computer and on the toilet (I have no laptop).
topgeargorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 17:46
topgeargorilla
[oh, I guess I'm going to have to split my response]

@Alexeadi
You bring up a good point. There can be a duality, and there should be a duality. And let me be clear, this isn't just about Dtoid or even gaming blogs, it's about journalism as a whole.

You've got newspapers competing with news blogs, People competing with Perez Hilton, Spin and Rolling Stone with a music blog, etc. What I think I mean about "snarky" is that when a site become successful, there must be a certain amount of professionalism. Look at Dtoid for example. Here are people who love games, love writing about them, and love putting there opinion in their writings. However, they do practice a certain level of restraint, for if they wrote really scathing and malicious commentary with no foundation of ethical restraint, they could burn bridges really fast.

Let's be real: this is a business. In every business, there is a certain level of professionalism if you want to succeed. I believe Dtoid understands that absolutaly. They have fun, yes, but you don't see them saying things that will get the site in trouble. And when they do, there is a quick action to remedy the situation. Nick is on the ball, I'd say.
topgeargorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 17:56
topgeargorilla
However, what I'm arguing is that just like print media needs to get with the times, write in a fashion that means they could succeed, many blogs have to become aware that they cannot just write whatever pops in their head. Blogs have a unique opportunity. I like the idea that "opinion," something which normally is ignored in game journalism, has a place to be focused upon. It's unique and amazing, a method to really change they way games are digested by the masses. It's awesome, and I love it.
topgeargorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:11
topgeargorilla
You know, whatever, I've spent the last 20 minutes trying to get the last half of my comment posted, and it's not working due to some glitch. Whatever, forget everything I said. I'll just say this: I love Dtoid. So there.
NihonTiger90's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:17
NihonTiger90
TopGear already said a lot of what I agree with, but here's something else to consider.

Imagine if everyone is able to be a journalist. What does that do to the actual profession? It makes anyone able to go out and report, but those people who are not trained as reporters do not know about how to write a story, style, often times proper grammar and ethics. Blogs, thus, can be a double-edged sword. It's the equivalent of giving everyone a gun and telling people to police their own towns and neighborhoods instead of having trained officers. The end result is likely to be something very disturbing.

On top of that, print is the last media that has not been wholly corrupted by the ideas of punditry and spin. Radio and broadcast journalism are both so engrossed in it that there is little to no hope of saving them. No print journalism = a world where the truth will be very, very hard to come by or prove.
lubczyk's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:22
lubczyk
VideoGame Magazines can not compete with VideoGame blogs. Why? For six reasons:

1. VideoGame Blogs are FREE!!! Magazines cost money. There is no way a pay service can compete with a free one, period.

2. VideoGame Blogs are updated daily. Magazines, even if updated weekly, cannot compete with that.

3. Videogame blogs can cover more topics and have longer articles. VideoGame magazines have to coup with the limitation of space. Paper costs money. Magazine Videogame writers, for that matter, have very limited real estate to write on. A blog can be as long or as short as you want it.

4. Videogame blogs are instant access. Anyone with a PC can access one in seconds. You have to go to a store and buy a VideoGame magazine. That's a step most people won't make.

5. By their very nature VIDEOgames are impossible to convey by words. How are you supposed to know how a game looks like based on the written word and tiny glossy screenshots?

Blogs give you access to trailers, Hi-Rex screen shots, gameplay videos, et cetera. That is why videogame magazines fail.

Same with movies. It's a VISUAL, moving medium so people will mostly base their decisions on the movie trailer not some written word.

Whether a written review is good or bad, it's hard to justify buying something like music, games and movies if you haven't seen, heard, or played some parts of it.

6. User Reviews - Whether it's Destructoid, Amazon.com or IGN, nothing can beat Layman reviews. I'm not a professional gamer or a game journalist. My tastes and habits differ greatly from Professional movie, music, book journalists.

I play games as a hobby, not as a career. How am I supposed to empathize with somebody's opinion who plays games for a living, likely doesn't pay out of his own pocket for games, televisions and gaming equipment and whose hobby and job seem to be one and the same?

Answer: I can't. What a Professional Game Journalist regards as short, easy and cheap may be lengthy, hard and expensive for me. I need people, like those on Amazon Customer Reviews, who play games under similar circumstances to myself. Their opinions and taste, I find, are more similar to mine.

Game and Movie Magazines are fundamentally flawed, as mentioned in Reason 6, in my opinion and can not be trusted or depended upon.
lubczyk's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:26
lubczyk
Game Magazines are dead, just as movie magazines went extinct not a long while ago.
lubczyk's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:32
lubczyk
@NihonTiger90

Bad comparison. Trained Police Officers are essential to perform an essential societal service. Trained Professional Game Journalists to write "OPINIONS" on non-essential entertainment media are not.

In deciding what Videogames are "fun" and "not fun", a College Professor's opinion is equality as valid as a Five-Year Old's.

Look at Wii and PS2 owners: most of them never read a Videogame review in their life in deciding which game to buy, and the market did just fine.
topgeargorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 18:41
topgeargorilla
Nihon gets lots of high-fives and cookies

Thanks man.

!!NihonTiger++
Jehutus's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 19:04
Jehutus
Sorry, until the internet and gaming blogs step up the quality they'll never be in the same league as print journalism. It's the same for games as with any genre.
NightDehumidifier's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 19:13
NightDehumidifier
I get all my news from Billy Ullman, his uncle works through Nintendo.
Kyousuke Nanbu's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 21:06
Kyousuke Nanbu
Well the internet will always dominate in this aspect, on the net your news is constantly updated with gaming mags you have to wait and usually the info us outdated.

As for proffesional journalism, neither exists in gaming mags or the internet so that's one aspect where they both fail.
MaximusPaynicus's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/18/2008 21:08
MaximusPaynicus
There is definitely room for both mediums. Print journalism has been completely left in the dust by the internet as far as reporting the news is concerned. Websites are able to crank out news stories every half-hour -- quicker if you have an actual staff. However, there is something to be said when you see all these big name games having in-depth, five or six-page previews in magazines like Game Informer. Unlike most websites, magazines are able to cram much more visual information while not artificially inflating the length of the story -- something online media has yet to perfect.

A problem that I have started to see on some gaming sites lies with the BLOG trying to act with the seriousness and business-like attitude of print media. Kotaku is a perfect example of this: A website that carries itself with the pompous self-righteousness of print media. Sites like Destructoid, Sarcastic Gamer and (I hope) my own have gotten the formula down -- be funny. Be laid back. Be a bit tongue-in-cheek because at the end of the day we are writing about video games. Print journalism, being what it is, can get away with being a little more uptight in their writing.

So is there room for both? Absolutely. Blogs are excellent for gaming news, and the nature of the internet makes it able for us to produce more entertaining features than you can see in any print media. But when you want to see an in-depth preview of, say, Batman: Arkham Asylum or read a review of whatever game you're considering picking up, I still feel that print media has a leg-up on the internet.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 03:41
Mxyzptlk
Print mags are great for reading while I make poop. Hence, they will always have a special place near and dear to me. And also in close proximity to the toilet.
Tristero's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 06:15
Tristero
@Roncore: It's always funny to see you put on your "not crazy" hat. I get all excited. Look! Greybush is talking like a normal person ... can he last through the whole interview without a reference to prostitutes or mexicans?
Cowboy TTop's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 10:28
Cowboy TTop
There is room for both I think. I've been reading Edge magazine for many years now. Edge has adjusted over those years to what its is now, more feature and interview focused, not so much the news. GamesTM is in a similar cut but more feels more fan focused. Both of these mag are the best I know of out there.

The voice of the fan community of anything is very important, within reason though. I enjoying blogging at any games website that lets me do so, but I usually try to make my work worthwhile. I'm all for the funnies, but sometimes I want to write thought provoking stuff, about ways to make our beloved industry better.

I'm sure Dtoid will be here for a long time to come. A coexistence of both, can only ever give us multiple opinions which is cool.
Gameboi's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 13:05
Gameboi
I can't imagine a life without both. I look to blogs for up to the minute info, and magazines to sit back and chill with for a while. Each serves their purpose well.
Noah's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 13:44
Noah
I found myself picking up a game mag while waiting for my wife in a bookstore the other day. (Reading is for nerds) I haven't had a subscription for at least 3-4 years. I noticed how great bad-looking games looked...then I realized games look a lot prettier as a 2x2 inch photo on glossy paper than as a high rez jpeg.

Do miss having something to read in the bathroom, though.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/19/2008 16:34
Holyetheline
Blogging wins. End of story.
FitzLik3AlG0r3's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/20/2008 03:03
FitzLik3AlG0r3
I think they both have thier place.

I come here for honest opinions and different takes on things then I would normally get from, say, EGM or whatever.

Sometimes I enjoy reading the articles in a magazine too though. Different vibe but I still enjoy it. Normally that's when I'm about to pass out or take a crap but you get the idea.=P
GohanGVO's Avatar - Comment posted on 10/25/2008 23:39
GohanGVO
Here is my personal experience:

Prior to the GFW magazine shutting down, I was a subscriber. Admittedly, I obtained the subscription free via an online offer. When the magazine's started showing up on my doorstep, I was like "cool!" ... and then I would toss it aside.

However, during a power outage one weekend, I decided to pick up the magazine for a read. Let me tell you, I was so mad at myself for not reading the articles earlier. There was some really well-written, thought-provoking stuff in there on subjects I never even thought about.

Now, truth be told, those types of articles totally exist out there on the blogosphereatron. The difference for me, though, is that having it in print showcases how far the industry has evolved and aged (not completely, but it is progressing).

So, I hope magazines do stick around. 1UP/EGM have a rather rad hybrid solution working for them, and Game Informer has like a billion exclusives a month. The outlook certainly is not bright for new magazines, but I hope that pushes those who have survived thus far to forever strive for higher quality material.
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