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There's no money in used games. If somebody picks up Blah 1 used, they will pick up Blah 2 and 3 used as well. I see no problem with paying 5 or 10 dollars to make up for the fact you picked it up used. I've had to do the same before because I couldn't find any new copies of some games.
Developers poured their hearts and their time into their creations, it's only fair they make something back.
Developers poured their hearts and their time into their creations, it's only fair they make something back.
"There's no money in used games. If somebody picks up Blah 1 used, they will pick up Blah 2 and 3 used as well."
Got numbers on that?
Given how sequels typically always outsell their predecessors, I'm willing to bet the exact opposite is true, mate. In fact, my theory is that used games of Blah will increase new sales of Blah 2 and 3 due to people finding they loved the game.
Got numbers on that?
Given how sequels typically always outsell their predecessors, I'm willing to bet the exact opposite is true, mate. In fact, my theory is that used games of Blah will increase new sales of Blah 2 and 3 due to people finding they loved the game.
@Commandant
Let's go to war against the entire used industry - Minority Report style! Next time you lend your friend anything, the pre-crime police will be right there waiting to grab it from you.
Let's go to war against the entire used industry - Minority Report style! Next time you lend your friend anything, the pre-crime police will be right there waiting to grab it from you.
Great video, Jim. The constant erosion of consumer rights is frightening. Its good to have smart people like you giving us a voice. We love you, man.
i thought the big deal with server resources was account creation and stat tracking, which is something that both the first, second, third + user will benefit from.
a poor excuse still, but based in fact.
a poor excuse still, but based in fact.
If I pick up Blah 1 and like it, I'm very much likely going to spend full price, with the help of a few trade ins, to pay for a new copy of Blah 2 at release.
One personal example being Uncharted 1 being Blah 1 and Uncharted 2 as Blah 2.
One personal example being Uncharted 1 being Blah 1 and Uncharted 2 as Blah 2.
The thing I find extremely hilarious about all this is it always seems to be the "Man" like Activision and EA, that make a shit-ton of money as it is, complaining about the used industry. Whereas you rarely see the smaller publishers or developers complaining about it, yknow, the ones who could actually use that "lost profit".
When outfits like GameStop are flourishing while the developers barely scrape by, I see a huge problem. GameStop won't even stock new copies of games. They force you to pre-order if you want it new most of the time. Otherwise they just push their used wares that they make 3-4x the money on than the dev ever made selling it the first time.
This really was a great video. I agree with you completely, and seeing gamers do the work of the publishers in the comment section really is the worst thing ever. I can't count how many times I've read long posts from people defending DLC, online passes, and the death of used games.
@Macphisto
Man I can't wait till they start putting limiters on the vehicles I purchase used so they only go 35mph until I pay some extra fee! Or maybe I can get lucky enough for them to take out half the pages in a used book until I pay for the missing ones the new copy would have!
Man I can't wait till they start putting limiters on the vehicles I purchase used so they only go 35mph until I pay some extra fee! Or maybe I can get lucky enough for them to take out half the pages in a used book until I pay for the missing ones the new copy would have!
I typically buy games new, because I like to support the game, but I use trade in credits to buy them. I couldn't afford to be a gamer without the used game market.
Used games are fair game. However, so are online passes. How often do used cars come with a warranty? How often do used books come with online multiplayer?
While I think online passes are bullshit. I think it's as you said. The big money hungry corporations are using capitalism to gain. Used games won't go anywhere, and it's not stealing at all. Like buying used cars, someone has already bought it new and the manufacturer won't get any more money from that used sale. However, that is exactly why they are coming up with new incentives to encourage you to buy something new. And in this glorious capitalist society, it is their right and the consumers will be the judge.
Personally, if I want a game bad enough, and the DLC or online content is worth it, I'll gladly pay. But you can also just wait for it to be in the bargain and then a discounted online pass might not be so painful.
Capitalism is a bitch ain't it.
Personally, if I want a game bad enough, and the DLC or online content is worth it, I'll gladly pay. But you can also just wait for it to be in the bargain and then a discounted online pass might not be so painful.
Capitalism is a bitch ain't it.
"Given how sequels typically always outsell their predecessors, I'm willing to bet the exact opposite is true, mate. In fact, my theory is that used games of Blah will increase new sales of Blah 2 and 3 due to people finding they loved the game."
This only matters if video game prices can only be bought cheaply if they're used. Does anyone honestly think this is true? Deus Ex HR was 30 bucks new in like 3 weeks...
This only matters if video game prices can only be bought cheaply if they're used. Does anyone honestly think this is true? Deus Ex HR was 30 bucks new in like 3 weeks...
Publishers can stuff their whining about used games. Funny how they never seem to consider that maybe the used market is so huge because their games are freaking ridiculously overpriced to begin with. Plus they whine about lost revenue as if all those people who bought used copies would have forked over 60 bucks to them instead, if they could stamp out the used market. Uh, no.
And this is why Destructoid is open on Chrome all the time, and why I only browse Kotaku when Destructoid stops updating at night.
Also: Mad props for the The Dark Messenger(?) background track.
Also: Mad props for the The Dark Messenger(?) background track.
Love it, Jim. Couldn't have said it better myself. Well, maybe I could have, but I'm too lazy to try so hooray for the Jimquisition! Seriously though, I am equally done with big-money publishers whining about not making more money to cushion their cash-stuffed mattresses.
Exactly as you said: what I bought belongs to me, I own it, I will loan it out, sell it, or GIVE IT AWAY if I want. That's capitalism. Eat it, bitches.
Additionally, I think some of these new tactics will ultimately backfire on the publishers. I bought Dead Space 2 used, was pissed to find that I was locked out of the online component, and simply ignored it. Fuck it. Unlike other games that are complete upon shipping, the online community for games like this will fizzle quickly and - ironically - used sales will increase for such titles as they now no longer have longevity they might have had they made the game complete to whomever plays it.
Again, I say eat it.
Exactly as you said: what I bought belongs to me, I own it, I will loan it out, sell it, or GIVE IT AWAY if I want. That's capitalism. Eat it, bitches.
Additionally, I think some of these new tactics will ultimately backfire on the publishers. I bought Dead Space 2 used, was pissed to find that I was locked out of the online component, and simply ignored it. Fuck it. Unlike other games that are complete upon shipping, the online community for games like this will fizzle quickly and - ironically - used sales will increase for such titles as they now no longer have longevity they might have had they made the game complete to whomever plays it.
Again, I say eat it.
For those saying that the developers that worked so hard on the game deserve it....... I agree, but am I understanding this correctly that they get paid their regular wage, and the publishers are the ones who benefit from all these additional sources of income?
"I'm willing to bet the exact opposite is true, mate. In fact, my theory is that used games of Blah will increase new sales of Blah 2 and 3 due to people finding they loved the game."
For a self declared cynic (like all), you sure just made a very optimistic statement. I'm not challenging you btw, I just believe that those who buy used will continue to buy used and could care less about buying new in order to help out those who actually worked on the product. Now my stance on this is the same as in many things, on neither side, consumer have rights, but like many have said before me a single used product may very well go around more than 2 times, therefore that "potential" sale is very hurtful in paper.
But at the same time it as you said, look around the same publishers/developers are releasing day 1 dlc, making money on 10-15 dollar map packs, making money on a change of clothes for a character. Just recently Gears of war 3, the day BEFORE it was even on sale the entire xbox live add on page was filled with weapon skins among other things. But since I stand on no side I can't give a final opinion, so just take it as it is.
For a self declared cynic (like all), you sure just made a very optimistic statement. I'm not challenging you btw, I just believe that those who buy used will continue to buy used and could care less about buying new in order to help out those who actually worked on the product. Now my stance on this is the same as in many things, on neither side, consumer have rights, but like many have said before me a single used product may very well go around more than 2 times, therefore that "potential" sale is very hurtful in paper.
But at the same time it as you said, look around the same publishers/developers are releasing day 1 dlc, making money on 10-15 dollar map packs, making money on a change of clothes for a character. Just recently Gears of war 3, the day BEFORE it was even on sale the entire xbox live add on page was filled with weapon skins among other things. But since I stand on no side I can't give a final opinion, so just take it as it is.
"Exactly as you said: what I bought belongs to me, I own it, I will loan it out, sell it, or GIVE IT AWAY if I want. That's capitalism. Eat it, bitches. "
Agreed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!
Agreed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!
I strongly support the used games market, but people need to stop bitching about publishers like their the devil. When did it become a crime to make money in this country? I understand both sides of this issue.
Also, just so everyone knows, there are more places to buy used games than Gamestop. Personally, I hate Gamestop and how their "used" discount is $5 off full price, so I use Amazon. Buying games used from another person means the money goes straight to that individual AND it usual garners YOU a better deal. Seriously.
On the same hand, if you want to sell games - do it on Amazon!! You will get probably twice as much as Gamestop will give you.
On the same hand, if you want to sell games - do it on Amazon!! You will get probably twice as much as Gamestop will give you.
Commandant Oreo said "Developers poured their hearts and their time into their creations, it's only fair they make something back."
Of course they do, but that's life. I'm so sick of people coming out against used games and going to bat for the game companies (against their own interests). If you don't like used games...... DON'T BUY USED GAMES. It's as simple as that.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
You can love the games, but you don't have to love the game companies.
Of course they do, but that's life. I'm so sick of people coming out against used games and going to bat for the game companies (against their own interests). If you don't like used games...... DON'T BUY USED GAMES. It's as simple as that.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
You can love the games, but you don't have to love the game companies.
@kilias2
Books with online multiplayer? Err, terrible argument is terrible. They implement online multiplayer as a part of the whole, so they are essentially withholding a portion of your purchase from you.
If they want me to pay full price they need incentives, not punishments. Make the game cheaper, not more of a hassle. Add something for day one buyers to make them want to buy new (ala Dark Souls). Make your games NOT a shitty cash-in. Make people want to keep your fucking game and not trade it in so people have to buy new with not much of a used market for it.
These big publishers are basically robbing their customers of the choice for how they want to make purchases on games a lot of them seem to be saying are over-priced in the first place.
Books with online multiplayer? Err, terrible argument is terrible. They implement online multiplayer as a part of the whole, so they are essentially withholding a portion of your purchase from you.
If they want me to pay full price they need incentives, not punishments. Make the game cheaper, not more of a hassle. Add something for day one buyers to make them want to buy new (ala Dark Souls). Make your games NOT a shitty cash-in. Make people want to keep your fucking game and not trade it in so people have to buy new with not much of a used market for it.
These big publishers are basically robbing their customers of the choice for how they want to make purchases on games a lot of them seem to be saying are over-priced in the first place.
@killias 2: Of course they have the right to do it, but I really do think they're harming themselves in the long run in that they're reducing the longevity of their game in that the online community will die much faster if you have to pay to play as opposed to games that come complete whether you buy them used or new.
"Of course they do, but that's life. I'm so sick of people coming out against used games and going to bat for the game companies (against their own interests). If you don't like used games...... DON'T BUY USED GAMES. It's as simple as that. "
If you dont like games with online passes, don't buy them. It's as simple as that. We don't need to retread this whining every week.
If you dont like games with online passes, don't buy them. It's as simple as that. We don't need to retread this whining every week.
People are making this more complicated than it is. If I buy something, I should have the right to sell it. If me doing so causes the whole game industry to die - then fuckit, it's my right to sell what I've bought. Keeping the gaming industry alive isn't my responsibility. I don't buy games in order for someone to make money, I buy games because I feel like playing them, and I will do my best to get the best deal I can.
"People are making this more complicated than it is. If I buy something, I should have the right to sell it. If me doing so causes the whole game industry to die - then fuckit, it's my right to sell what I've bought. Keeping the gaming industry alive isn't my responsibility. I don't buy games in order for someone to make money, I buy games because I feel like playing them, and I will do my best to get the best deal I can."
Again, by the EXACT same token, they have the right to use online passes if THEY want. They're not running a charity...
Again, by the EXACT same token, they have the right to use online passes if THEY want. They're not running a charity...
"This only matters if video game prices can only be bought cheaply if they're used. Does anyone honestly think this is true? Deus Ex HR was 30 bucks new in like 3 weeks..."
That is another thing, Jim said that not every consumer has 60 dollars to pay for every game that comes out, but from the recent trend of sales, all you have to do is wait a matter of weeks and you'll catch it for around 34 dollars. I did this with Portal 2 (2 weeks) and MK (3 weeks), and while I didn't do it for Dues ex it was on sale in many places after a few weeks for 34.
That is another thing, Jim said that not every consumer has 60 dollars to pay for every game that comes out, but from the recent trend of sales, all you have to do is wait a matter of weeks and you'll catch it for around 34 dollars. I did this with Portal 2 (2 weeks) and MK (3 weeks), and while I didn't do it for Dues ex it was on sale in many places after a few weeks for 34.
I agree with almost all of this video. I slightly disagree with the part about developers experiencing the downside of capitalism. I think that they're just too dumb to realize that they're benefiting from a system that allows used games to exist. A lot of people wouldn't be able to afford to buy as many new games as they do now if they weren't allowed to get back some money by trading in their old game.
"There's no money in used games. If somebody picks up Blah 1 used, they will pick up Blah 2 and 3 used as well."
Even if that were true, which I don't think it is, it still wouldn't matter. Developers aren't entitled to make any money off of used games.
"I see no problem with paying 5 or 10 dollars to make up for the fact you picked it up used."
This isn't going to prevent people from buying used games. If stores like Gamestop see a decrease in used games sales because of the additional fee that publishers are charging people who purchase used games to play online, Gamestop will just lower the price of their used games to negate the difference, and that lower price tag will likely cause even more people to buy a game used.
"Developers poured their hearts and their time into their creations, it's only fair they make something back."
They do make something back when they sell the game the first time. Why are they entitled to anything more? Should Nissan make money if I decide to sell my car that I already paid them for?
"There's no money in used games. If somebody picks up Blah 1 used, they will pick up Blah 2 and 3 used as well."
Even if that were true, which I don't think it is, it still wouldn't matter. Developers aren't entitled to make any money off of used games.
"I see no problem with paying 5 or 10 dollars to make up for the fact you picked it up used."
This isn't going to prevent people from buying used games. If stores like Gamestop see a decrease in used games sales because of the additional fee that publishers are charging people who purchase used games to play online, Gamestop will just lower the price of their used games to negate the difference, and that lower price tag will likely cause even more people to buy a game used.
"Developers poured their hearts and their time into their creations, it's only fair they make something back."
They do make something back when they sell the game the first time. Why are they entitled to anything more? Should Nissan make money if I decide to sell my car that I already paid them for?
if Developers wants to increase new sales they could always give out more of free DLC/bonus content/trinkets/collectors editions. that usually gets me to buy new
The writing is on the wall for used games. It's only a matter of time before games become disk-less at which point, we will be buying codes at retail which of course, won't be transferable. This is a bad thing for the industry.
For example, just this weekend three of my friends traded in their old games to buy new copies of Dead Island. So, chock up three new sales based on used copies. Think of how many games were sold to buy new copies of Gears of War 3.
Not that it really matters to publishers and developers. They just see a used sale as a lost sale. If they really wanted to lessen used sales, they'd simply lower their prices.
meh.
For example, just this weekend three of my friends traded in their old games to buy new copies of Dead Island. So, chock up three new sales based on used copies. Think of how many games were sold to buy new copies of Gears of War 3.
Not that it really matters to publishers and developers. They just see a used sale as a lost sale. If they really wanted to lessen used sales, they'd simply lower their prices.
meh.
@momomo66
Absolutely, Amazon is the shit, and no pesky staff members desperately trying to sell you some bullshit you don't need.
Absolutely, Amazon is the shit, and no pesky staff members desperately trying to sell you some bullshit you don't need.
"Again, by the EXACT same token, they have the right to use online passes if THEY want. They're not running a charity..."
Fair point. I just won't buy the games in question if I feel that the use of online passes renders the game worth less than the price that it's being sold at. But you're right, they're free to try and get my money anyway they can.
Say what you will about Nintendo and their poor grasp of online functionality, but I don't have this problem on my 3DS (so far). Swings and roundabouts, I guess.
Fair point. I just won't buy the games in question if I feel that the use of online passes renders the game worth less than the price that it's being sold at. But you're right, they're free to try and get my money anyway they can.
Say what you will about Nintendo and their poor grasp of online functionality, but I don't have this problem on my 3DS (so far). Swings and roundabouts, I guess.
Killias2: Agreed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!
Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?
Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?
"Infinite Knowledge: Killias2: Agreed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!
Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?"
Well, it's more like dlc that comes for free with a new disc. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?"
Well, it's more like dlc that comes for free with a new disc. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
I actually have no problem with "good" dlc as long as it isn't released on launchday especially map packs. If a developer has a map pack ready on launch it is highly probable that it would have been ready to get a place on the disk and when this is the case, it's a mere rip-off. One or two month later I could accept, since the game usually goes gold about a month prior to the release day, you can start making additional content. But again, it is to rip off the costumer because if you clearly want there to be more content, why not take more time for it in the first place??? When I see things like the crapton of WEAPON SKINS(wtf?!) you can buy for GoW3(Just as example) I can do nothing but to get sad. Concerning used games, I mostly agree with you Jim, as for online passes, i have mixed feelings about them. On one hand I could bring myself to accept it, but seeing how only big companys whine like pansies about it and the smaller companys keep quiet and probably shake their heads...
Also @Infinite:
How do you feel when games shut down multiplayer servers down? Have they taken your purchase away? Or is multiplayer simply different?
How do you feel when games shut down multiplayer servers down? Have they taken your purchase away? Or is multiplayer simply different?
@Killias2
"greed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!"
The whole point of videos like this is to broaden the scope of consumer rights.
Of course they have the right to do it (via EULA and ToS voodoo), but as we expand into the digital age, you better believe that consumer rights will broaden, and start to cover things like "buying licenses". All people can really do right now, as you and other people always say, is "vote with your wallet".
"greed. The big difference is that game companies, also by virtue or capitalism, have the right to sell, give, or withhold online multiplayer. Yay capitalism!!!"
The whole point of videos like this is to broaden the scope of consumer rights.
Of course they have the right to do it (via EULA and ToS voodoo), but as we expand into the digital age, you better believe that consumer rights will broaden, and start to cover things like "buying licenses". All people can really do right now, as you and other people always say, is "vote with your wallet".
Thank you so much Jim, for addressing the on disk/day 1 DLC issue. 60 dollars is already a lot to ask for a game and I just can't justify supporting publishers when they go down that scamming avenue. Then when I say that that I won't support a game because of said DLC, I get called a whiny baby. I don't care even if it is a freaking weapon skin, or some alternate costume that has no impact on gameplay. I refuse to condone or tolerate that shit because it only allows game companies to cross the line further and further.
Great video. My rational for used video games existing is that nearly every other commercial item has a secondary market where people can buy and sell used items. You don't have to support them if you don't like them either.
How many people here use eBay, buy used cars, visit pawn stores or garage sales, shop at Goodwill, look in classified ads for used washers/dryers, buy used baby clothes, accessories or toys, etc... I could go on for a good while, but I won't. These are all secondary markets where people buy goods for less then new prices. Are they used? Yes. Why are people buying from these places? To save money. Either they can't afford to buy new or they're being fiscally responsible within their budget.
People love to rally against Gamestop, but Amazon and Best Buy buy and sell used games now too. Are they bad as well? What about the people that sell their own used games on Amazon Marketplace or eBay. How about trading on Goozex? Trading or selling games to friends? These are all outlets that circumvent buying new goods from publishers.
It seems to be the main complaint about used gaming is to attack Gamestop for buying a newly released $60 for $20 and selling it for $55. There is a simply solution to this. Start your own store and pay gamers what you think they should be paid for newly released used games. You think people should get $50 for a title they just bought new? Pay it to them and then sell it for $55 and use that whole $5 to pay for staffing, buying more used and new titles, promotional materials, bills, etc... I'm going to guess you'll quickly understand why outlets that take in trade-ins of games (or second hand goods anywhere) buy low and sell high.
How many people here use eBay, buy used cars, visit pawn stores or garage sales, shop at Goodwill, look in classified ads for used washers/dryers, buy used baby clothes, accessories or toys, etc... I could go on for a good while, but I won't. These are all secondary markets where people buy goods for less then new prices. Are they used? Yes. Why are people buying from these places? To save money. Either they can't afford to buy new or they're being fiscally responsible within their budget.
People love to rally against Gamestop, but Amazon and Best Buy buy and sell used games now too. Are they bad as well? What about the people that sell their own used games on Amazon Marketplace or eBay. How about trading on Goozex? Trading or selling games to friends? These are all outlets that circumvent buying new goods from publishers.
It seems to be the main complaint about used gaming is to attack Gamestop for buying a newly released $60 for $20 and selling it for $55. There is a simply solution to this. Start your own store and pay gamers what you think they should be paid for newly released used games. You think people should get $50 for a title they just bought new? Pay it to them and then sell it for $55 and use that whole $5 to pay for staffing, buying more used and new titles, promotional materials, bills, etc... I'm going to guess you'll quickly understand why outlets that take in trade-ins of games (or second hand goods anywhere) buy low and sell high.
@Infinite Knowledge
"Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?"
I don't think it's a matter of being separate, but the added cost of servers and junk. Online play is relatively new, so I think eventually big companies will find a better way to resolve this. Probably by injecting the cost into their asking 'new' price. After games top $100 new and people stop buying them the company, because of lack of sales and threatened to go bankrupt, will be forced to lower their prices and people will start buying new again.
In a capitalist society the consumer is king.
"Wait, so, the single and multiplayer are two different products?"
I don't think it's a matter of being separate, but the added cost of servers and junk. Online play is relatively new, so I think eventually big companies will find a better way to resolve this. Probably by injecting the cost into their asking 'new' price. After games top $100 new and people stop buying them the company, because of lack of sales and threatened to go bankrupt, will be forced to lower their prices and people will start buying new again.
In a capitalist society the consumer is king.
"Of course they have the right to do it (via EULA and ToS voodoo), but as we expand into the digital age, you better believe that consumer rights will broaden, and start to cover things like "buying licenses". All people can really do right now, as you and other people always say, is "vote with your wallet"."
Agreed. The only thing is that I don't see this as about consumer rights. Maybe I'm the only Steam user who has commented here?
Agreed. The only thing is that I don't see this as about consumer rights. Maybe I'm the only Steam user who has commented here?
I think online passes are more than fair in the case of buying the game used.
Fact is that it costs the company money to run those game servers. It makes total sense that they want people to pay into maintaining those servers before they can gain access to them.
Fact is that it costs the company money to run those game servers. It makes total sense that they want people to pay into maintaining those servers before they can gain access to them.
"Publishers would have you believe that used games are the biggest threat to the games industry. Even gamers will sympathize with these huge companies and equate the used market with piracy."
This is why I did not bother watching. Before anyone can offer a counter opinion, you've already gone out of your way to sabotage differing opinions with half-truths and exaggerations. It would be the same as someone saying, "Jim Sterling wants developers to close down because he doesn't support them". Your absolutes and straw man statements make it seem as if you're just trying to win an argument, as opposed to engage in a discussion.
No need to take this seriously.
This is why I did not bother watching. Before anyone can offer a counter opinion, you've already gone out of your way to sabotage differing opinions with half-truths and exaggerations. It would be the same as someone saying, "Jim Sterling wants developers to close down because he doesn't support them". Your absolutes and straw man statements make it seem as if you're just trying to win an argument, as opposed to engage in a discussion.
No need to take this seriously.
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