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Fucking A. Question: If the publishers have such a fucking problem with Gamestop (let's be honest, they are the target), then why in the fuck do they provide them with special pre-order shit? Why not turn off the spigot? Sales? Fuck that, Walmart and Target push more new games than GS. Maybe the Podtoid crew can discuss this question.
"I don't think this is the right site for you if you want opinion less editors."
I just wish I didn't hear the same inane argument every week for like 6 months.
I just wish I didn't hear the same inane argument every week for like 6 months.
@killias2
yeahhh...I know what you mean, anyway if i ever break the law in the US I want Jim Sterling to be my lawyer.
yeahhh...I know what you mean, anyway if i ever break the law in the US I want Jim Sterling to be my lawyer.
I also think it's hilarious how you differentiate the new game coming with more content versus the old game coming with less content. I understand that the ideal types are easy to distinguish, but what about, say, Cerberus Network? Why is that so acceptable, when an online pass is not?
Agreed. Since the server junk was paid for by the new sale, which allows for one person to be online. And a used game sale allows for one person to be online, which has already been paid. I see no reason for online passes.
@killias2: So Jim's not allowed to express his opinion on his show that's about him expressing his opinions? oh ok then. Also no ones making you watch. Or you could have came up with a counter argument instead, just saying.
@killas2: This is a very volitile topic in this industry; gamers cannot spend the requisite cash on shit games. We are talking $60 bones a pop, coming into a season in which there are several games desired each month (often times each week). I would love used games, I use Gamefly, I spend fuck all on new games unless it is a special game. Gears of War 3, day one purchase, Dead Island day one…nothing else recently. Because they suck or are not all that (imo). So, we, as a community, need this dialogue open at all times untl the publishers get it. We will not be fucked in the face much longer.
Rage is doing it wrong. At least it sets a precedent. They didn't give you anything with rage. They took it away from used games, which means they compromise the single player. Compromsing the multiplayer is one thing because if you buy it used years later there probably is no multiplayer left, but once you say it's ok to do the same for single player, we will look back and buy games that can only be found used, and find that their stories and campaigns are incomplete.
"yeahhh...I know what you mean, anyway if i ever break the law in the US I want Jim Sterling to be my lawyer."
Hahaha. Personally, I want Jim Sterling to be my butler. Not because I think less of him or anything. He would be like my Alfred, only moreso my equal. I just think he'd be a bloody brilliant British butler. I'm thinking of archetypes like Geoffrey from Fresh Prince or Mr. Belvedere.
Hahaha. Personally, I want Jim Sterling to be my butler. Not because I think less of him or anything. He would be like my Alfred, only moreso my equal. I just think he'd be a bloody brilliant British butler. I'm thinking of archetypes like Geoffrey from Fresh Prince or Mr. Belvedere.
@Killias2
Because its optional, DLC is something you choose to download and if pass up on it you shouldn't miss much locking used game buyers completely out of multipayer unless they pay 10$ is NOT DONE.
Because its optional, DLC is something you choose to download and if pass up on it you shouldn't miss much locking used game buyers completely out of multipayer unless they pay 10$ is NOT DONE.
Bravo Mr Stirling!
Thank you for demanding more for us gamers.
I still there will be those misguided people who will oppose what you say and talk incessantly about gamestop, as if every single gamer makes a used purchase through that one vendor and they all buy used games for $5 less than new. These people need to look outside that petty view point and understand that it isn't just gamestop under assault but ordinary gamers, whose only crime is to love games and pay for them.
Thank you for demanding more for us gamers.
I still there will be those misguided people who will oppose what you say and talk incessantly about gamestop, as if every single gamer makes a used purchase through that one vendor and they all buy used games for $5 less than new. These people need to look outside that petty view point and understand that it isn't just gamestop under assault but ordinary gamers, whose only crime is to love games and pay for them.
No no no no no no no no. That first couple of minutes was NOT what I wanted to hear and I disagree with. As long as developers are taking content off of the disc and making it downloadable, I can't condone it at all. You know that those bonus rooms in rage, and those gears of war gun skins were made with the game's initial budget, and that they could have easily included them on the actual disc. The game's budget is supposed to go COMPLETELY into the disc itself, and that's why I'm paying a hefty 60 dollars for the game. For someone like me who rarely hooks his xbox to the internet, and who doesn't want to pay a ton of money for microsoft's ripoff harddrives, I see these offline passes a slap in the face myself.
Of course there's also the Cerberus network DLC. which rendered my mass effect 2 saves worthless to me, because once you download the cerberus network, you MUST be hooked up online at all times to play your save file, and that doesn't work for me. Fuck hooking up consoles to the internet, and fuck whoever started it.
Of course there's also the Cerberus network DLC. which rendered my mass effect 2 saves worthless to me, because once you download the cerberus network, you MUST be hooked up online at all times to play your save file, and that doesn't work for me. Fuck hooking up consoles to the internet, and fuck whoever started it.
"So Jim's not allowed to express his opinion on his show that's about him expressing his opinions? oh ok then. Also no ones making you watch. Or you could have came up with a counter argument instead, just saying."
I have a blog on this subject from the opposite vantage point. I wrote it about two weeks ago. I'm mostly just sick of the whole subject, especially when I see the same tired, old, nonsense claims being brought out week after week.
Most notably: used game sales are actually harmful to the gaming industry, and online pass will not destroy the gaming market. The main arguments against online passes should emphasize the potential for headaches and difficulties for the consumer. The other stuff is just bunk to anyone who has done more than 5 minutes of analysis of it.
"This is a very volitile topic in this industry; gamers cannot spend the requisite cash on shit games. We are talking $60 bones a pop, coming into a season in which there are several games desired each month (often times each week). I would love used games, I use Gamefly, I spend fuck all on new games unless it is a special game. Gears of War 3, day one purchase, Dead Island day one…nothing else recently. Because they suck or are not all that (imo). So, we, as a community, need this dialogue open at all times untl the publishers get it. We will not be fucked in the face much longer."
I also typically wait, but I don't get fucked in the face. You can get games for cheaper than typical used game prices if you just watch for sales....
I have a blog on this subject from the opposite vantage point. I wrote it about two weeks ago. I'm mostly just sick of the whole subject, especially when I see the same tired, old, nonsense claims being brought out week after week.
Most notably: used game sales are actually harmful to the gaming industry, and online pass will not destroy the gaming market. The main arguments against online passes should emphasize the potential for headaches and difficulties for the consumer. The other stuff is just bunk to anyone who has done more than 5 minutes of analysis of it.
"This is a very volitile topic in this industry; gamers cannot spend the requisite cash on shit games. We are talking $60 bones a pop, coming into a season in which there are several games desired each month (often times each week). I would love used games, I use Gamefly, I spend fuck all on new games unless it is a special game. Gears of War 3, day one purchase, Dead Island day one…nothing else recently. Because they suck or are not all that (imo). So, we, as a community, need this dialogue open at all times untl the publishers get it. We will not be fucked in the face much longer."
I also typically wait, but I don't get fucked in the face. You can get games for cheaper than typical used game prices if you just watch for sales....
If gamers don't care about how well a game does why should publihsers or developers care if your inconvenienced or feel cheated?
"Because its optional, DLC is something you choose to download and if pass up on it you shouldn't miss much locking used game buyers completely out of multipayer unless they pay 10$ is NOT DONE."
Why can't multiplayer be optional? I mean, shit, it gets shut off inside of two years on most sub-AAA releases anyway. I mean, with some games, the multiplayer is more important, but then you should just be able to weigh the importance of the multiplayer vs. the used game price vs. the new game price. I don't see why any of this is incredibly much more evil than having certain areas or missions be optional.
Why can't multiplayer be optional? I mean, shit, it gets shut off inside of two years on most sub-AAA releases anyway. I mean, with some games, the multiplayer is more important, but then you should just be able to weigh the importance of the multiplayer vs. the used game price vs. the new game price. I don't see why any of this is incredibly much more evil than having certain areas or missions be optional.
@njits
I REALLY REALLY REALLY get annoyed when people say that content they don't value personally is "optional" and therefore it's okay if game developers rip that content off of the disc and sell it separately. I have news for you. Video games are optional. They are a luxury. The ENTIRE GAME is optional. Online play is optional. Music is optional. An ending is optional. One thing I don't like about DLC is that there is no way to keep game companies in check, whether or not they ripped actual content away so they could rip off customers in addition to the hefty 60 dollar disc. The game isn't useless without online play especially when there is local multiplayer, so online play is just as "optional" as gun skins and alternate costumes.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY get annoyed when people say that content they don't value personally is "optional" and therefore it's okay if game developers rip that content off of the disc and sell it separately. I have news for you. Video games are optional. They are a luxury. The ENTIRE GAME is optional. Online play is optional. Music is optional. An ending is optional. One thing I don't like about DLC is that there is no way to keep game companies in check, whether or not they ripped actual content away so they could rip off customers in addition to the hefty 60 dollar disc. The game isn't useless without online play especially when there is local multiplayer, so online play is just as "optional" as gun skins and alternate costumes.
"If gamers don't care about how well a game does why should publihsers or developers care if your inconvenienced or feel cheated?"
100%. People don't seem to remember that game publishers and developers are BUSINESSES. They want MONEY. Sure, it's morally acceptable to buy used games and skip the provider out entirely, but, by the same token, it's morally acceptable for developers to do what they can to try to get some of that money.
And, yes, that money is there. That 2 billion dollars of used game revenue Gamestop makes every year doesn't just magically jump back into producer hands.
100%. People don't seem to remember that game publishers and developers are BUSINESSES. They want MONEY. Sure, it's morally acceptable to buy used games and skip the provider out entirely, but, by the same token, it's morally acceptable for developers to do what they can to try to get some of that money.
And, yes, that money is there. That 2 billion dollars of used game revenue Gamestop makes every year doesn't just magically jump back into producer hands.
@Disemvowel:
I think you're underestimating the retail power that GameStop has. If they were truly that insignificant, Publishers would have jettisoned them long ago.
It also not as simple as pulling games. If GameStop doesn't carry software titles, the only revenue stream left is hardware. Since that isn't enough to sustain business, GameStop would likely fold. If GameStop folds, then there's a chunk of hardware sales that slips into the ether. That's going to anger the manufacturers, and you really don't want to do that as a publisher, seeing as how you need their hardware to sell the games that you pulled from GameStop in the first place.
There's also the matter that large publishers are often publicly traded companies. If the executive level management just amputates part of the retail chain, expect the investors and the board to immediately call for their dismissal.
I think you're underestimating the retail power that GameStop has. If they were truly that insignificant, Publishers would have jettisoned them long ago.
It also not as simple as pulling games. If GameStop doesn't carry software titles, the only revenue stream left is hardware. Since that isn't enough to sustain business, GameStop would likely fold. If GameStop folds, then there's a chunk of hardware sales that slips into the ether. That's going to anger the manufacturers, and you really don't want to do that as a publisher, seeing as how you need their hardware to sell the games that you pulled from GameStop in the first place.
There's also the matter that large publishers are often publicly traded companies. If the executive level management just amputates part of the retail chain, expect the investors and the board to immediately call for their dismissal.
"See that's better then your first comment (which was the one I was replying to). :)"
Part of me was hoping to avoid getting pulled back into this debate when I know I won't change anyone's opinions, and when I know Jim will just ignore the counterarguments and continue with his Crusade regardless.
Still, I love arguing. I just can't stop sometimes.
Part of me was hoping to avoid getting pulled back into this debate when I know I won't change anyone's opinions, and when I know Jim will just ignore the counterarguments and continue with his Crusade regardless.
Still, I love arguing. I just can't stop sometimes.
"Used games are hurting the industry."
Why don't they implement Full Game Pass?
Why don't they lock out Online and Single Player? They can charge a full $60 to unlock.
Seems pretty easy to kill off the used market if they wanted to.
Why don't they make used console games as useless as used retail pc games? I'm pretty sure that would kill prices on anyone who tries to resell their games.
CD keys for consoles.
Pretty easy solution, if indeed the used games are "hurting" them.
Why don't they implement Full Game Pass?
Why don't they lock out Online and Single Player? They can charge a full $60 to unlock.
Seems pretty easy to kill off the used market if they wanted to.
Why don't they make used console games as useless as used retail pc games? I'm pretty sure that would kill prices on anyone who tries to resell their games.
CD keys for consoles.
Pretty easy solution, if indeed the used games are "hurting" them.
"Why don't they implement Full Game Pass?
Why don't they lock out Online and Single Player? They can charge a full $60 to unlock.
Seems pretty easy to kill off the used market if they wanted to.
Why don't they make used console games as useless as used retail pc games? I'm pretty sure that would kill prices on anyone who tries to resell their games.
CD keys for consoles.
Pretty easy solution, if indeed the used games are "hurting" them."
You could argue that these are the first steps toward that outcome. I'm guessing this will eventually come to pass, especially as physical media become less tenable for software sales.
Why don't they lock out Online and Single Player? They can charge a full $60 to unlock.
Seems pretty easy to kill off the used market if they wanted to.
Why don't they make used console games as useless as used retail pc games? I'm pretty sure that would kill prices on anyone who tries to resell their games.
CD keys for consoles.
Pretty easy solution, if indeed the used games are "hurting" them."
You could argue that these are the first steps toward that outcome. I'm guessing this will eventually come to pass, especially as physical media become less tenable for software sales.
It comes down to one thing, regardless of argument: publishers have zero proof that used games cost them any money. None. Nada. It is all conjecture, and a fair amount of hubris. Again, publishers have zero proof used games cost them money, they are not even actively trying to prove it.
I can, however, prove that Gamestop alone buys $1 billion worth of murchandise from gamers a year, and according the their president, more than 75% of that is used on new product in the same visit, and more than 95% is used in the same visit on everything in general. In simple terms, Gamestop, the evil empire of games retail, adds $1billion to gamer's pockets anually, the vast majority of which is spent on new product before walking out of the store. Numbers.
Publishers cannot prove that used games cost the industry money, they don't want to try. I've said it before, when your weapon of choice is conjecture, you have to keep your image squeaky clean. If big publishers could prove anything, they would have. They know that the second they put the effort into doing just that, they lay waste to the image they've been perpetuating, as the actual numbers would be incapable of perpetuating it for them.
I can, however, prove that Gamestop alone buys $1 billion worth of murchandise from gamers a year, and according the their president, more than 75% of that is used on new product in the same visit, and more than 95% is used in the same visit on everything in general. In simple terms, Gamestop, the evil empire of games retail, adds $1billion to gamer's pockets anually, the vast majority of which is spent on new product before walking out of the store. Numbers.
Publishers cannot prove that used games cost the industry money, they don't want to try. I've said it before, when your weapon of choice is conjecture, you have to keep your image squeaky clean. If big publishers could prove anything, they would have. They know that the second they put the effort into doing just that, they lay waste to the image they've been perpetuating, as the actual numbers would be incapable of perpetuating it for them.
I feel like The Jimquisition should just be renamed "Jim Sterling bitches about piracy and used games." Because it seems like that's what every episode that's been released has been about.
Now wait a damn minute, instead of an online pass you want companies to force players to buy the game early for new in game areas or day one DLC? That seems like a terrible idea to me, that means late adopters may not be able to access that part of the game.
I really dislike that Saint's Row: The Third is using the Professor Genki bonuses to make people buy the game early. Professor Genki and the goodies that he brings with him look to be the best part of the game IMO, one of the few reasons I want it. It isn't enough to make me pre-order it though, seeing as I have never played a Saint's Row game and I don't want The Third bad enough to pre-order. If it comes later as DLC I'll be okay with that though. I just hate day one DLC that the developer will not offer later on (or they will, but they just won't tell you).
I just can't agree with you this time Jim, but I'm hoping I just misinterpreted your message. If not then I find your message to be slightly hypocritical.
I really dislike that Saint's Row: The Third is using the Professor Genki bonuses to make people buy the game early. Professor Genki and the goodies that he brings with him look to be the best part of the game IMO, one of the few reasons I want it. It isn't enough to make me pre-order it though, seeing as I have never played a Saint's Row game and I don't want The Third bad enough to pre-order. If it comes later as DLC I'll be okay with that though. I just hate day one DLC that the developer will not offer later on (or they will, but they just won't tell you).
I just can't agree with you this time Jim, but I'm hoping I just misinterpreted your message. If not then I find your message to be slightly hypocritical.
I agree with most of the message. I'd just like to point out the Mortal Kombat DLC characters and the whole snafu about mismatched patches and things depending on which character packs you bought and have as an argument FOR on disc DLC. At least it ensures that everyone has the same capabilities for the content despite whatever might arise from the restrictions of each respective network, be it an arbitrary limit on DLC size, or something else.
Hopefully this is something that will get ironed out in the next console generation. Until then, god bless PC. XD
Hopefully this is something that will get ironed out in the next console generation. Until then, god bless PC. XD
@llort Het
"The game's budget is supposed to go COMPLETELY into the disc itself"
says who? you? I believe they have the right to put whatever they deem is the final product on the disc. They would be idiots to withhold full missions or have a story that you can't complete due to what they withhold however they have the right to release the product they want. Think about how much DLC is planned and worked on while deving the main game (think Fallout). Should they put every line of code they write on the disc too? all of the concept art? texture tests and documentation? Personally I'm more pissed when they release a half of a story and try and bilk a trilogy or something over like 6 years. I find something like Gears of War 2 to be an incomplete disc not rage witholding some bullshit sewers where you can get a bit more cash or kill a couple things. ...Also Golden Foreskin FTW nice one Jim.
"The game's budget is supposed to go COMPLETELY into the disc itself"
says who? you? I believe they have the right to put whatever they deem is the final product on the disc. They would be idiots to withhold full missions or have a story that you can't complete due to what they withhold however they have the right to release the product they want. Think about how much DLC is planned and worked on while deving the main game (think Fallout). Should they put every line of code they write on the disc too? all of the concept art? texture tests and documentation? Personally I'm more pissed when they release a half of a story and try and bilk a trilogy or something over like 6 years. I find something like Gears of War 2 to be an incomplete disc not rage witholding some bullshit sewers where you can get a bit more cash or kill a couple things. ...Also Golden Foreskin FTW nice one Jim.
"Rather than punish used gamers, companies need to reward new ones."
In other words, you want more free stuff. I understand the feeling, but calling publishers greedy while asking for more free stuff sounds like hypocrisy.
In other words, you want more free stuff. I understand the feeling, but calling publishers greedy while asking for more free stuff sounds like hypocrisy.
@Jim Sterling
Two things.
1: While I agree with most of what you say, some preorder bonuses should NOT exist. A weapon or a different character or something is fine, but if you're giving story-related materials, or even entire levels, that's something that upsets me. I would have loved to play the joker challenge missions in Arkham Asylum, but because I came late to the party and borrowed it from a friend, I never will.
2: Until today, I had thought that the black patch above the banana in your reporter bio was your mouth. I now realize it is not.
Two things.
1: While I agree with most of what you say, some preorder bonuses should NOT exist. A weapon or a different character or something is fine, but if you're giving story-related materials, or even entire levels, that's something that upsets me. I would have loved to play the joker challenge missions in Arkham Asylum, but because I came late to the party and borrowed it from a friend, I never will.
2: Until today, I had thought that the black patch above the banana in your reporter bio was your mouth. I now realize it is not.
@killias2: Jims main point (and one I agree with the most) is games are $60 new. And some publishers release there games in the same month, Asking for $60 each. That's a lot to ask from the consumer, they expect people to pay $60+? Without the aid or trade in credit? If you have the money to do that awesome. I don't and a lot of people don't. Online passes could damage the trade in value of used games. And then publishers will have a even bigger problem on there hands, consumers who can't afford there games. Come on man, think of the bigger picture.
Great vid Jim and I agree with this vid.
Although Im keep sounding like a mindless shmup fan, but I always bring up CAVE when talking about good business pratices. One example is their Pre Order DLC that ever existed (for their Japanese / Regoin free titles)
For example they give away as PO DLC complete game modes or in the case of Deathsmiles voice acting for the games text dialog sequences.
Although Im keep sounding like a mindless shmup fan, but I always bring up CAVE when talking about good business pratices. One example is their Pre Order DLC that ever existed (for their Japanese / Regoin free titles)
For example they give away as PO DLC complete game modes or in the case of Deathsmiles voice acting for the games text dialog sequences.
Minor extras will only go so far, and will not really curb a lot of the used game sales. It's also nothing wrong with a company charging 60 bucks for a game, if they want the "hardcore fans" to pay top dollar. I say if people are willing to pay it, then charge it. But the companies must understand that most of us won't pay that, and are getting tired of it.
The answer to both of these is for game companies to aggressively use good deals and sales to bring in people who would otherwise go to a Gamestop. Use Steam, use Amazon, use whatever it takes, but drop that price down and get the sales you wouldn't otherwise get. This way is much more effective than access to minor decals or other garbage content. Look at how popular Steam is. That is the future, not DRM and not minor garbage content access.
The answer to both of these is for game companies to aggressively use good deals and sales to bring in people who would otherwise go to a Gamestop. Use Steam, use Amazon, use whatever it takes, but drop that price down and get the sales you wouldn't otherwise get. This way is much more effective than access to minor decals or other garbage content. Look at how popular Steam is. That is the future, not DRM and not minor garbage content access.
I enjoyed this series and I definitely support the cause. However, I don't see any real difference between Rage's cut content and an online pass. It's almost exactly the same thing. In a way, it's actually even worse because it's not cutting out multiplayer, which is typically tacked on and pointless.
Pre-order bonuses are fine, within reason. Different pre-order bonuses at each retailer are absolutely not fine, and almost nothing pisses me off more.
"Good" DLC is a suggestion I can get behind. But it's so rare that it's almost a pointless suggestion; like claiming that Communism is a good thing in theory, when in reality it just turns into the ultimate horror.
I also agree, more progressive pricing is critical; perhaps the most critical thing of all.
Pre-order bonuses are fine, within reason. Different pre-order bonuses at each retailer are absolutely not fine, and almost nothing pisses me off more.
"Good" DLC is a suggestion I can get behind. But it's so rare that it's almost a pointless suggestion; like claiming that Communism is a good thing in theory, when in reality it just turns into the ultimate horror.
I also agree, more progressive pricing is critical; perhaps the most critical thing of all.
There is also the option of having a VIP pass that BC2 had. Every new copy has a code that lets you get free DLC
@Killias2
To be fair on the subject, the biggest gripe about the online passes is that they shut off what is for many people a huge extender of game-life and what is for others the game they want to play unless you pay $10 more.
Buying a used game that misses out on "pre-order bonuses" and extra skins in no way detracts from their single-player experience. That somebody who bought the game new gets something EXTRA for their trouble doesn't seem as bad.
Though, honestly, if they have to go to all this effort, they can charge me $5-10 less for the game without any extras and I'll be totally fine with it.
To be fair on the subject, the biggest gripe about the online passes is that they shut off what is for many people a huge extender of game-life and what is for others the game they want to play unless you pay $10 more.
Buying a used game that misses out on "pre-order bonuses" and extra skins in no way detracts from their single-player experience. That somebody who bought the game new gets something EXTRA for their trouble doesn't seem as bad.
Though, honestly, if they have to go to all this effort, they can charge me $5-10 less for the game without any extras and I'll be totally fine with it.
"Jims main point (and one I agree with the most) is games are $60 new. And some publishers release there games in the same month, Asking for $60 each. That's a lot to ask from the consumer, they expect people to pay $60+? Without the aid or trade in credit? If you have the money to do that awesome. I don't and a lot of people don't. Online passes could damage the trade in value of used games. And then publishers will have a even bigger problem on there hands, consumers who can't afford there games. Come on man, think of the bigger picture."
If you can't afford it all, wait, and they'll drop prices. It happens every time.
If you can't afford it all, wait, and they'll drop prices. It happens every time.
In a way I agree with this however I do think skins and secret chambers that were ready at the time its in stores should not be a bonus to reward players. I think a bonus should be something coming out after its release and not be done at the time its in store.
Its a system thats often abused I say why not implement a system for actual DLC in a way that you get the actual first map pack in the future for free...Not stuff that was held back at time of release but was actually worked on after release as a reward for loyal players that others get to buy.
Other then that I agree with this even If I am the type to buy every game new and rarely if ever sell or trade in games myself.
Its a system thats often abused I say why not implement a system for actual DLC in a way that you get the actual first map pack in the future for free...Not stuff that was held back at time of release but was actually worked on after release as a reward for loyal players that others get to buy.
Other then that I agree with this even If I am the type to buy every game new and rarely if ever sell or trade in games myself.
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