"With the Japanese gaming industry in decline this is actually a huge blow, both financially and morally to an industry struggling to find a profitable model. "


EVERY industry is in decline, the US, european, everywhere......but that doesnt mean games arent profitable

Thats abit of sensationalism there

@hiroko nice to meet you

"complex lottery-roll system in order to unlock virtual items"
I have to admit I wouldn't mind them making this system illegal for developers in the US.

From what I understand, Gacha is somewhat evil, but completely prohibit it? No
I mean, post some regulations, like max money someone can bet per month or max money per Gacha, but making it illegal is not the answer.

"Internal regulation, good judgement, and fail safes are one thing, however the government dictating the terms is another. The companies have come together to build an Internal User Environment Committee, to self regulate and ensure compliance and proper use of their social media games."

So you're for internal regulations as long as there is no real consequence for disobeying them? So why have the regulations at all? I imagine this has more to do with the ease of making purchases to accounts without warnings or permissions. Apple just recently changed how in-app transactions work didnt they?

I don't care about things that don't affect me

@SoundsLike

Agreed. The random, consumable item thing has even infiltrated the AAA space with ME3's multiplayer. It's asinine.

"With the Japanese gaming industry in decline this is actually a huge blow, both financially and morally to an industry struggling to find a profitable model."

Yeah, the ENTIRE international market is in decline. Also, profitable model? What, are you serious? Really? This is Japan we are talking about, right?

"Look at companies like Zynga that thrive on in game sales."

So? Why bring this up? If you knew anything about Zynga's development cycle, you would understand that they too, are harmful to the industry. The way they "manufacture" games to be built around herding consumers with a carrot on a stick is terrible, not to mention the conditions their employees go through.

"Players and children are encouraged to spend more money to attempt to get random prizes, and the fears are, stir up the pleasures of gambling."

So, we have players and "children" spending real-world money on these games, where they get a chance to obtain a virtual item at random? That sounds like gambling to me and a slippery slope. Atleast CoD doesn't go THAT far.

I agree, making it illegal is stupid, but I don't see whats wrong in restricting the system so that it can be made sure that no minors could play and that everyone understands the risks. The government obviously sees it as a risk, but instead made a lousy ban instead of proper regulations.

"Ryo Hazuki"

ahahahahahano.

"Other companies that make social media games such as Konami and Namco Bandai saw their stocks dip as low as 18% amid fears."

Stocks goes down when there are fears from investors. Yes, thanks for pointing that out, much like when Steve Jobs died, Apple's stocks went down and eventually became "stable".

"Usually I have the pleasure of reporting the latest fun and silly stuff coming from my homeland of Japan to our readers."

More like silly stuff coming out of you so you can feed it to us. Also, isn't there an entire website that I saw around here that was dedicated to Japanese affairs in media?


Anyways, welcome to Destructoid. As long as you stay sensational, you'll grab pageveiws just fine.

It's what I hate about the crate system in TF2. It's pretty much gambling.

At the end of the day though you can't regulate stupid behavior. When you try to take freedom away and give more power to the government. I have a mom and dad, I don't need the government to be my mom and dad.

This is nothing if not a huge victory in moving towards a functional sustainable gaming industry. Bravo

@Mithrot

you got as miffed as i did about that statement, glad i wasnt the only one

I guess I should have qualified the article a bit by mentioning I active enjoy playing Complete Gacha games

Good. This is a good thing. This manipulative gambling should be outlawed, and I hope they do the same thing in the US, especially after games like Mass Effect 3. Paying money to get random upgrades, and then being told that if you continue paying money on random upgrades (like a slot machine) you may eventually get something good, is gambling.

Mass Effect 3 is guilty of the same exact thing. Paying real world money to spin a virtual slot machine, and not knowing what you are going to get, is wrong for so many reasons. It is manipulative in many, many ways, and is downright evil.

I'm all for any regulation that will discourage a widespread gambling habit. It's a lifebreaking addiction and people are quite susceptible to it. Paint it as you will, randomized loot boxes for real money IS gambling.

If you're not part of the solution...

@fellblade - by that logic videogsmes would have banned on America before their prime in the 1980s arcade era, as they tried to outlaw pinball machines and early arcade games under "gambling" in the 70s.

Feel stupid?

@Stealth

Woah, just noticed how similar our sentiments are. Are you me?

@Hiroko Yamamura

Even then, I personally don't think that would have been enough to make the article better as a whole.

Why not do some actual JOURNALISIM! by sharing your experiences on Complete Gacha games, their origins and what you can conclude should be done, if anything at all.

You claim to be from Japan, therefore giving your readers a deeper analysis of how you interpreted how the Complete Gacha system works could allow readers to get to know you more and understand the issue from your perspective.

Perhaps there is a cultural context that we are missing here? Maybe these young Japanese gamers are not as in much danger as the government thought? Maybe provide us with some solid information behind the "high number" of reports from the Japanese Consumer Affairs Agency and whether the concern is legitimate? Perhaps social gaming in Japan operates differently than on Facebook? Etc, etc etc.

Or maybe these suggestions just suck? I don't know. Nevertheless, instead of that, we got...this.

Shit I cringed every time I used Ryu's yen and that wretched Virtua Fighter capsule would reveal another worthless red dice. Don't wana think about that kind of snubbery in exchange for real money.

how is playing pinball gambling? Because here's my qualifier: lower than 100% probability to obtain something in exchange for money=gambling. Hitting paddles to whack a ball around equals this, how? So the government was stupid back then, how is that supposed to make ME feel stupid? EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

Vi

@mithrot, maybe bizzaro you

I don't play those kinds of games, but this is a really bad move. Japanese gaming is being shoved into a corner and being threatened by the infamous Japanese bureaucracy much like how anime and manga are. What worse, ALL those industries has their own internal issues.

Virtual goods are not real goods.

Again, feel stupid. If people with your reasoning had their way we would not HAVE videogames as we know them today.

Additionally people that support nanny state laws make me sick.

Mithrot, while some of your opinions are noted, I think you are being overtly critical of Zynga or other social games in the way that gaming industry is some zero sum game. I really doubt core gaming market even competes with social gaming at all. It would be like saying horse racing gambling and slot machines compete directly with eachother.

Personally, I think any regulation on entertainment industry cannot be defended. Things like spending habits and gaming habits are a matter of personal responsibility. Even if things become illegalized, it only opens more venue for people to simply bypass it. Much like how gambling and prostitution are rampant in Japan despite much of it being illegal. In the end, personal responsibility has to come into play.

randomized loot boxes, real or imaginary, in exchange for real money=gambling. Shooting aliens, jumping on mushrooms, hitting a ball to hit bumpers=NOT GAMBLING. Exactly which train of logic of mine are you countering? Because I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying at all. Also, anti gambling laws are not nanny laws, there's a reason why most of your states outlaw gambling, maybe because people tend to lose control to them sometimes? I don't know, maybe that. Just because you're in control of your habits doesn't mean there are people out there who can easily make that decision before destroying themselves.

Hmm, still not feeling stupid, try again.

there aren't people out there*

I'm torn. Laws that are designed to replace parenting are pure liquid suck. But predatory game market development is just as suck and just as liquidy.

@The Silent Protagonist

I definitely felt alot more stupid after reading your comment. You are still a fun guy to read, but damn man, you can do better.

Also, you remind me why Destructoid has to step up their comment system. "Vi" lol

"Additionally people that support nanny state laws make me sick."

You are completely correct, this made me realize that the way I worded it, I intended the government to be the ones justified to make changes.

If anything needs to be changed/regulated, then it has to be doen through co-operation from Japan's CERO (Computer Entertainment Rating Organization) and large game companies that handle these social/Complete Gacha games (for example, Zynga) without the intervention of the government. Much like how the ESRB co-operates with major game retailers.

"..but isn't that someone else's job to regulate? Like the fabled parents?"

Ah.. The fabled parent.. Right up there in legendary obscurity with the Tengu.

Kind of happy to hear that the Japanese have issues controlling their kids too though, sort of a refreshing thought, really.

If there is no payout of any kind, it is not gambling. Period.

That's just common sense. If I play poker with plastic chips and no physical goods or money is involved, I'm just playing a game. The second I can win actual currency, it's gambling.

how about not giving children access to your money?

At first, this pissed me off as well. It is a free market, and if people want to pay for this crap they shouldn't take away that right from consumers or Game Companies.

However, I recently heard that online gambling is illegal in Japan, And I can see how this business model somewhat straddles that line.

So this decision seems to comes down to legality and following pre existing laws more so than supposed unfair market rigging, and if that's the case then that's okay by me.

That's where we disagree then. As far as I'm concerned, virtual goods are just as good as real goods, when it comes to an exchange with real currency. Value is applied to something in the mind, and this is the basis of economics, and you can do that with a virtual item just as easily as with an actual physical item. You attach a value to a car, so you buy it. You attach value to a game, so you buy it. You attach a mental value to a toy, you buy plastic eggs for a chance to get it, i.e, gamble. You attach value to a rainbow unicorn mount, so you buy loot boxes for a chance to get it, i.e, gamble.

Did anyone read the actual news article? There isn't even a law, it's not being made illegal. The government just threatened the companies so they would take action and self regulate, so now both companies are forming committees and making "hey we aren't that bad" campaigns. Sometimes companies are douchebags (gasp) and while making their practices illegal is too harsh, threatening them so they lighten up their basically immoral tactics of what is essentially luring children into gambling seems a little more reasonable.

I love that they're welcoming you to Dtoid even though you're already an established writer here.

I don't play those kinds of games, but it's always interesting to hear about Japanese government having an influence on videogames.

Comparing the value of a digital item such as virtual banana tree seeds to that of a car or tv or even Pokemon cards is complete bullshit. That digital item is stuck within the grasps of those you paid the money to. You're not even paying for ransom digital items, you're paying for the privilege or renting them until the company decides to take the servers down or goes bankrupt. It holds no value other than what is contrived by those who created and sold it to you. A car will always have value no matter what, sure it will depreciate incredibly but even a pile of rust is worth more than what you used to "own" on a disconnected server. Even trading cards are on paper that has tangible value. Honestly until there are clear regulations on the distribution and consumption of digital "items" shit like this will continue to happen.

I assume you're responding to me, Rampart, but I assure you you're missing my point. My explanation is based on something's value on a per person basis, not the inherent value of a tangible item based on rarity, cost of materials, etc. A car is valuable to someone who has to drive to work. Would a person who stays home all day value it equally? No. A gamer will see a game they like and want it enough to buy it, a non-gamer will see the game and refuse to buy it, as it has no value for them. See how that works? Demand is generated when people see value in a product, not because of it's mere existence.

its*

I can see why regulating this activity is a slippery slope in itself since most RPGS provide a similar system just spread out through gameplay mechanics and not a *insert dollar get chance of item* marketplace. Whats the difference between paying 15 dollars a month to have access to a random chance at loot you want and buying 15 individual tokens to get loot you want?

Its obviously not an easy issue to tackle, but its definitely one that needs addressing in some form. I don't know the answer. I just know that, for me personally, randomized marketplaces can fuck off. I think its just one notch too far, although I can see why they should be allowed.

Just maybe not in childrens games...

"Only games that award players for completing sets or collections are affected"

Only games that award players for completing sets or collections THAT REQUIRE YOU TO ROLL THE DICE (GAMBLE) TO SEE IF YOU GET THE COMPLETE SET are affected. There's a HUGE difference in the statement when you leave out that part.

Hmmmm, I find I have no particular liking or respect for the business models you mention.

I too, like to have the option, however in this case I'm not worried about this decision. Maybe I'm being myopic here, but I don't like at all that direction of the industry and if it has to be cut short this way so be it. Sick of the million of in-game items being sold on many japanese games, $5.99 for a different narrator on blazblue? I know that's not exactly what is addressed here but fuck that too.

Why contain it?

This news actually makes me very happy in a selfish way. I hate paid DLC as it encourages incomplete game design, however I do think that people have a right to sell whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting anybody. So I can't agree with the new legislation, companies should be allowed to sell in-game items if they want. This does make me happy though, because it means my favorite Japanese developers won't be able to use this business model. I just wish those developers weren't forced to do so, and were rather encouraged to make the switch by market reaction.

I sit on the fence with this one. Not because I necessarily agree with either side, but because I like fences.




No, in seriousness, I do think there should be regulation in these kinds of markets, but not be made flat out illegal. At most, I think they should make the amount of money that digital gun transparent. Not this whole "buy 400 shit-ums for $5" and "penis-shooting gun costs 365 shit-ums". Instead just tell me much the goddamn penis-shooting gun costs in real money. Also tell me if there is a non-digital penis-shooting gun, I would like to buy one for $5.

Put me down as someone else who agrees with what the Japanese government did. Essentially putting this money thing in games aimed for kids is just like letting kids into a Casino underage, or targeting kids with mango flavoured cigarettes. I don't see the distinction between those addicting "social games" and gambling.

Make it illegal everywhere.

Fellblade, sorry for the delayed response. I would totally agree with you if we were talking about digital software. Steam, PSN, iOS, and XBL games, i get that, those are games with inherit value and more so with steam than the others you actually own a tangeble thing, even though it is digital, you still are pulling software off the wen onto your hardrives so really, it is physical. We aren't talking about software here though. We are talking about digital items that are purchased for use within online games. I'm not arguing that they have no value, they just don't have value that is comparable in anyway to a car or some other tangeble good. The main reason why, matter. A car has value to a lot of other people than just those who need to drive a car, it can be repurposed, resold, broken down, and again it can even rust into a pile of dirt, but even then you are still left with something. A digital item within an online game space, cannot be removed from that game, cannot be transferred to others through means not regulated or controlled by its creators, and in an instant can be erased with no trace that the consumer ever owned it. It is for all intents and purpose worthless. But, again, thats not what I'm arguing about or what this article (the original anyways) is about, this is about regulating people spending money online to gain access to random things that are only valuable because the people you give money says they are. Its snake oil. And the worst part, they target kids.

Is Diablo 3 gambling? I'm going to pay real money and in return the game has randomised loot

Another nail in the coffin of Japanese gaming. You know it's not the game publisher's or creator's fault if 10 or even 100 delinquents spend way too much money on app items. With this law in play, are the government going to take responsibility for it's consequences? Such as the increase of out of work former game developers found hanging from trees in Aokigahara?! Assholes.

This is probably from the same people who brought you the "Manga and Anime cause rape" debacle. Do you guys know that Japan's Liberal Democratic Party is neither liberal nor democratic? Food for thought.

I believe Princess Leia said it best... "The more you tighten your grip... the more star systems will slip through your fingers!". Trust me, it works the same with people (look at prohibition). The opposite works too because in Holland marijuana is legal, but nobody smokes it there because it's not a big deal... same principle just in reverse.

I am completely fine with this. More regulation is EXACTLY what these 'app' style games need, they are a mess.


1. Zynga is shit, including their games and soulless business model which has no artistic relevance whatsoever.

2. Parents are mostly useless and games are obviously used as a way to keep their kids busy (many a time unmonitored).

3. It only affects games that essentially are about gambling with REAL LIFE money, and with little kids playing with their 'harmless' baby games that could get ugly REAL fast.


As for the 'Japanese games industry in decline' comment...

You seen Nintendo lately? They seem to be doing better than anyone and they're Japanese. The Japanese games industry is doing fine, and the economic situation and rising developnments costs are messing with EVERYONES productivity.

Not to mention Japan has had a few natural disasters recently... and Japan is actually VERY GOOD at dealing with them compared to other countries.

@rampart - If on nothing else, we agree that this is a shitty practice then, and needs to be regulated closely. Especially if they're going to do this to fucking kids. I'm a parent and while I'm sure I can manage my kid well enough to not be bothered by this, what pisses me off is why I should even have to deal with teaching my daughter this early about the dangers of gambling. This crap needs to be put down, hard.