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The inside story on the PS3's game installations photo

Mandatory installations of certain PlayStation 3 games (e.g., Devil May Cry 4, Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds) have become a point of contention among gamers. We’ve certainly seen that happen here on Destructoid in a few c-blogs where things got heated at times. The typical explanation that gamers have been given is the PS3’s 2x Blu-ray drive, which has a much slower maximum read speed than the 12x DVD drive in the 360 (72 Mbps vs. 126.6 Mbps).

Blame it on Blu-ray, right? Well, not entirely — according to some research done by Patrick Klepek over at the MTV Multiplayer blog. Apparently, Capcom wasn’t expecting the required 5 GB installation in Devil May Cry 4 to become as big of an issue as it did. (They’re going to consider that reaction in the future.) When he pressed Capcom, Sony, and Ubisoft for more details, he didn’t get much. But he posted what little he obtained, and you can check it out (along with my analysis/commentary/whining) after the jump.

[Editor’s note: Just so you know what you’re getting into, I own a PS3 and I do not have a 360.]

[via MTV Multiplayer]

Everything comes back to the developer putting resources into Blu-ray’s “unique characteristics”. But Blu-ray and DVD are fundamentally different technologies in the way that their respective discs are read by their drives, as Klepek tells us:

The issue arises from differences in the reading techniques of DVD and Blu-ray. By nature, the outer and inner parts of a disc move at different speeds while a disc is spinning, regardless of format (CD, DVD, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, etc.). While DVD drives can read data at those differing speeds, Blu-ray reads at one speed. Combine that with the extremely large size of Blu-ray discs, and simply dumping existing DVD data onto a Blu-ray disc will inevitably result in longer load times.

There are a few different solutions that developers are using. For example, Bethesda Softworks is simply putting the same data in multiple locations on the Blu-ray Disc for Fallout 3. That gives the drive more areas in which to find the same data, of course. Other devs are improving streaming systems. I still think installations should be optional, like in Epic’s Unreal Tournament III, so storage-strapped gamers can still play without having to delete other stuff off of their hard drives.

PS3 HDD

But as far as I’m concerned, just because the 360 has a much larger install base than the PS3, developers shouldn’t be “picking” one platform over the other. Some of these installations spring out of the fact that developers of multiplatform games optimize those games for the DVD medium, and then simply plop the data onto a Blu-ray Disc. And as Klepek mentioned above, that’s a problem.

However, don’t give up because you have to actually put some work into optimizing code for the PS3 and Blu-ray. I get the feeling that that’s what developers are doing because it’s cost-effective (i.e., the PS3 version isn’t worth the effort because they’ll make enough money by selling copies of the 360 version). That’s the kind of stuff that I find very irksome.

And while I’m bitching, it’s also unfair for PS3 owners to have to suffer through shoddy, second-rate ports of games that look and play better on the 360. I mean, here are five AAA titles that are essentially identical on both platforms (in terms of the gameplay experience): Guitar Hero III, Call of Duty 4, Rock Band, Burnout Paradise, and Devil May Cry 4. If Neversoft, Infinity Ward, Harmonix, Criterion, and Capcom, respectively, could pull it off for those games — then why can’t EA Tiburon, for example, ensure that Madden runs as well on the PS3 as it does on the 360? That’s what engenders a vicious cycle:

1) Many multiplatform games look and play better on the 360 than on the PS3.
2) People would rather buy a 360 than a PS3 in order to try and ensure that they’ll get the best gaming experience for multiplatform games.
3) The PS3 continues to have a significantly lower install base than the 360.
4) Developers aren’t willing to put the time/money/effort into making games look and play as well on the PS3 as they do on the 360.
5) Repeat steps 1-4 ad infinitum, or until the developers actually man up and give it their all.

DMC 4: PS3/360 comparison shot

Of course, I understand that I’m being very idealistic here. At the end of the day, videogames are still business, so developers and publishers are going to do what makes the most fiscal sense. I mean, during the last console generation, no one gave a damn that Xbox games looked much better than PS2 games; that was expected because the Xbox was simply a more graphically advanced machine. The differences between Sony’s and Microsoft’s gaming systems are much more subtle this time around, so why is it so damn hard for the gaming experience to be similar on both platforms?

As a final note, I beg of you: please don’t let this descend into fanboyism. That’s exactly what happened in the comment thread of Klepek’s original post. While I’m not naïve enough to think that Dtoiders are above such sophomoric shenanigans, I’d like to think that we could make it happen with some effort. In fact, here’s my favorite comment from the Multiplayer blog thread:

Matt says:
April 1st, 2008 at 4:43 pm

All this whining.
Its funny that each of you (myself included) spend about 20-30 minutes a day reading articles, and occasionally writing responses to them.

I’m glad my DMC4 loads like butter, and I’m glad I spent the 20-30 minutes it took to install pleasuring my girlfriend so she wouldn’t bother me for the next few hours while I played.

You’d think that his words would’ve shut people up, but they just kept going. I have faith that we’ll be able to keep things civil...right, guys?

 


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44 comments | showing # 1 to 44

outrage's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:29
outrage
Simply put, companies do not want to invest more time and money into the PS3 right now than they have to. If a port of a 360 game looks great, they will do it. Blame Sony for the "difficulty" of coding if you want.

Also, if you ask me, the installing crap is nothing more than a combo of sloppy coding (no need to save disc space and optimize) and a slow drive. I own a Wii, 360, and PS3... and cant wait for the day to come where I could say my $600 investment blows the competition out of the water!
Takeshi's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:29
Takeshi
Right!
Takeshi's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:31
Takeshi
That was about keeping it civil.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:34
MaxVest
On a technical note, I believe that a 12x DVD drive transfers data at a theoretical maximum of 126.6 mbps; this would be attained when the drive is reading data at the very end of the disc. Data at the beginning of the disc, however, might be read at less half that rate. From what I understand, BD reads at a constant 72 mbps.

That's of course why DVD data is placed where it is, but it does seem like on a larger game, at some point the data transfer speed advantage would level out.
Darkknight37's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:37
Darkknight37
I'm starting to think the PS3 is a hydrogen car with no hydrogen stations w/ frozen coke venders. They said that it was definitely ahead of its time, and it appears so. These developer clowns who can do the Macarana while coding for other consoles, but somehow have seizures when it comes time to develop a PS3 game, seem to not be ready for the next gen.

It's not shocking that the exclusives are the games that can play with no problem, but multi-platform games need flux capacitors to even limp on a PS3.

And I just saw Captain Obvious fly by...
Magesx's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:38
Magesx
Simply put, I don't mind, and I don't see how people can mind to the point of foaming mouths, etc.
Samit Sarkar's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:40
Samit Sarkar
@MaxVest: Yes, that’s true. As Klepek said, the outer edge of any disc will spin faster than the inner portions — that’s just physics. Theoretical maximum = something that’s usually not achieved IRL.
Justice's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:41
Justice
Interesting article dude, it's pretty bad that the PS3 get's treated this way (with games costing more on the system anyway), but you're right. It's just 30 minutes.

READ A DAMN BOOK.

I suggest Catcher in the Rye.
SoopaFly TNT's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:41
SoopaFly TNT
Agree with Mage... not to big of a deal. I have heard worse.
Raven CDN's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:42
Raven CDN
I don't mind installing games, although I also done not download movies or music to my consoles, thats what a computer and lots of hard drives are for, just stream that stuff or find a alternative solution.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:53
MaxVest
@Samit: I was a little confused when I read the original article a few days back. He says that BD reads at a constant speed, AND the disc spins at a constant speed? That can't work. Something's got to give.

Either the 2x standard is variable, representing a theoretical maximum (I don't think this is true because BD movies are supposed to have 54 gbps of bandwidth), OR the disc drive motor speed itself is variable, but I don't see a way both can coexist.
DrNutt's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 17:57
DrNutt
I'm just foaming at the mouth fanboy blarrrrg.

Naw, just kidding. I honestly do get the impression that the PS3 was maybe a little ahead of its time when it came out, because of the Blu Ray and the price point, but for a gamer like me, it just means that I'll be picking up the PS3 a little later. I just hope by the time the PS3 comes out, these things don't seem like much of an issue.

One thing that disappoints me about this current generation of consoles is that there isn't that much difference between Sony's console and Microsoft's, which means that it's harder for me to justify spending almost a grand to own both systems. I'm honestly disappointed in myself that I'm probably going to drop 500 dollars for what initially will just be MGS4.
junkie's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 18:17
junkie
If the difference between a 360 and a PS3 game is so little that you can basically just dump the code onto a PS3 system, then is there really a difference at all between the consoles (in terms of graphic and hardware capabilities)? That's the story I'd like to know about - if we could run games on either system if only the two companies would play nice with each other. This whole fanboy thing where one group thinks they're better than the other is really silly in light of this...
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 18:19
MaxVest
OK, I'll answer my own questions and then stop threadjacking your post:
[i]BD-ROM/R/RE are currently read and written using Constant Linear Velocity (CLV). As is the case for CD and DVD, Constant Linear Velocity (CLV) maintains an even data transfer rate as the optical head of the recorder, drive or player reads or writes from the inner (ID) to outer diameter (OD) of the disc. At 1x, the rotational speed of a BD disc decreases from roughly 1957 RPM to 810 RPM (ID to OD) to maintain a constant linear velocity of 5.280 m/s (23.3 GB disc) or 4.917 m/s (25 GB disc).[i]
[http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11404#iiib][Source][/url]
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 18:20
MaxVest
my bbcodes... they fail so hard.
[Source]
king3vbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 18:23
king3vbo
CIVILITIES FTW
EternalDeathSlayer's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 18:28
EternalDeathSlayer
That picture is perfect, Samit. Perfect. I Lol'd, actually.
Drksan's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:00
Drksan
I know what you mean DrNutt. Im in the same situation. Next time I just gonna stick with one console. Hopefully more games like Final Fantasy will go multi-platform by then.
Villanx1's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:12
Villanx1
The installs really don't affect me much, when i first got DMC4 i put it in pressed all the buttons to get it to the install and then watched the little reminder of whats happed so far and then switched my TV to satellite and watched Top Gear while it installed
Crunshii's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:15
Crunshii
/mouthfoam ( (o )_________( O) )
mix's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:18
mix
I don't remember people complaining about computer games taking of space.....hrm Oregon Trail takes up .5mb? Fuck that shit I hate life! I see where people come from but as of right now unless you bought a 20 gig you should be fine as there are not many (great, great) games that require a DL onto the HDD.

I plan on upgrading my HDD when the time comes so I can toss on movies and shows and what not. Plus I will be ready if more games require a DL. Once they actually make load times extra fast (ZOOOOM) I see no down side.
brainderailment's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:29
brainderailment
Sony is the only one who can keep the console out of that vicious cycle. They -must- put out extremely good exclusive content in order to grow their install base so that developers don't shun the console. That said, keep 'em coming Sony.
zanpher717's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:30
zanpher717
This doesn't bother me at all. I have been playing PC games for years and have never had a kick ass system so install times took longer.

Just grab a joint out of the fridge and smoke a Pepsi, take a shit and you will be ready to rock.
BlackSunEmpire's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:39
BlackSunEmpire
I think this thread could have been the end all of fanboyism. Its obvious from your article that one console is clearly better than the other and anyone who disagrees with me is a total fanboy loser. Too bad we shouldn't discuss it, I guess fanboyism will have to live on to fight another day.
brainderailment's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:41
brainderailment
BTW, I opted to install UT3, and I'm glad I did, the load screens are freaking short. For that physical proof, I say bring the installs on.

Also, lots of oXBOX games had mandatory installs. You didn't see an install screen because they simply installed it while the opening sequence played and you weren't able to skip it. This is nothing new. SEE: DOOM3
jerrt's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 19:44
jerrt
matt is a smart smart man. awesome post matt!! then after you get done with a few hours of play, it is time for round number two.
Volomon's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 20:42
Volomon
Have to agree with the Article and I like the slow but surely eventual PS3 devoted direction that Detoid is taking.
bipolar beers's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 20:43
bipolar beers
good post. im getting a larger harddrive for ps3 just because i got my warhawk and getting socom and grand turismo off the ps3 network so i really need more harddrive space for installing games. although this is a drawback for now soon it wont even be a problem.
Y0j1mb0's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 22:00
Y0j1mb0
Nice Write up Samit..as someone who's already upograded their Hard Drive already..It doesn't bother me the installs. The shoddy ports are a different matter.
flabzilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 22:36
flabzilla
PS3 owners now know how GC owners felt :(
Professor Pew's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 23:18
Professor Pew
I wouldn't mind the installs that much, even if installing a game on a console is heresy. It's more that you would have to choose between games at some point. If I finally go back to an unfinished game, it better not take 30 minutes before I start it!

And no, I don't feel like buying a bigger hdd when I get a PS3. Unless they create a HDD-loader, then the hdd can't be big enough ;)
Professor Pew's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/02/2008 23:36
Professor Pew
I wouldn't mind the installs that much, even if installing a game on a console is heresy. It's more that you would have to choose between games at some point. If I finally go back to an unfinished game, it better not take 30 minutes before I start it!

And no, I don't feel like buying a bigger hdd when I get a PS3. Unless they create a HDD-loader, then the hdd can't be big enough ;)
tkyy's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 00:09
tkyy
It's pessimistic trying to justifying the time of installation by doing something else...

But I can live with installation times, as I can live with the PC happily.
HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 00:30
HarassmentPanda
Honestly, stick a 1TB drive in there and just completely install all of the games on there. I'd love to turn on the system and choose my game from a list. Switching discs sucks.

Really great write up on this issue, Samit.
Necros's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 02:55
Necros
I thought that we knew this already? I suppose some people just didn't realize that Blu-ray drives were slower.
hjd uk's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 05:20
hjd uk
"it’s also unfair for PS3 owners to have to suffer through shoddy, second-rate ports of games that look and play better on the 360"

Its unfair that PS3 developers have to put up with difficult hardware, an underpowered graphics card and a shoddy API when all they want to do is get it done.


"1) Many multiplatform games look and play better on the 360 than on the PS3."

The XBox360 has a better graphics card. Fillrate ( essential for current-gen post processing and frame buffer effects) is better on the XB360

"2) People would rather buy a 360 than a PS3 in order to try and ensure that they’ll get the best gaming experience for multiplatform games."
Xboxes are cheaper, more numerous and have an excellent online service.

"3) The PS3 continues to have a significantly lower install base than the 360."
Lack of games, too expensive.

"4) Developers aren’t willing to put the time/money/effort into making games look and play as well on the PS3 as they do on the 360."
time = money, money = money, effort = stress&money. In the eyes of the PUBLISHER its not cost effective / Developers will end up with the same time and budget to make both versions, with the PS3 version taking much longer to write and optimise - hence comprimise.

"5) Repeat steps 1-4 ad infinitum, or until the developers actually man up and give it their all."
If its expensive, time consuming and unprofitible why should the PUBLISHERS bother paying for PS3 games? Developers work bloody hard to kick the PS3 into shape as it is.

And yes, I do have a ps3 devkit under my desk.
bhive01's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 07:52
bhive01
Even though I hate to say it, hjd_uk is right too.

Samit's complaints are ones I've had since purchasing my PS3. Flat-out we've had shoddy ports of 360 games since the beginning and only the biggest budget titles have received the kind of attention required to make the game look and run the same on both systems.

Yet, I can see that cell and the relatively weak NSX graphics could be a difficult combination. Likely, once APIs get worked out and people find out how to best utilize them the games will run better on the PS3 simply because there is more hardware underneath. Notice I didn't say look better. I don't expect them to look better. I expect that we'll see better AI and physics on future PS3 games than the 360 is capable of.
Robbo the hood's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 08:38
Robbo the hood
I think people are being to easy on the PS3 here. If you're "ahead of your time" aka properly using your hardware isn't economically feasible, then Sony should either create initiatives to produce software for developers to help remedy this, or educate them in some other way to help them work on their platform. The developers don't "have to" do anything with their PS3 efforts if the system isn't generating appropriate return. If Sony wants to sit back and have things come to them, then I don't think they deserve to ever have equal multiplatform games. Nintendo has the same problem, they shouldn't just sit around and show developers that they're the only ones who have ideas for the Wii controller. Although the Wii is in a better position to lead by example because control schemes are much more apparent than how a game's code is optimized or whatever. Anyway, point is that if Sony has no interest in helping developers learn their new technology, then the developers can shovel 360 ports on there. Sony made their bed, and unless they get their head out of their ass and help developers code for it then they're going to be waiting. Their new technology creates a really stupid problem (Can't adjust read speed to match the disc speed? D'you think this tech might not be ready to come out of the oven yet?), it should be their responsibility to help fix it or get around it. Good luck doing that now that they don't even have a competing format anymore though.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 08:43
Holyetheline
That's fun. Pleasure your girl when you install a game... haha
Psycho_Babble's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 09:19
Psycho_Babble
Put Skittles in your PS3 and a rainbow will come out. DO IT
brad drac's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 09:23
brad drac
I'm not sure that vicious cycle is quite accurate. Noone but the hardiest of the hardcore would chose one system over another because some of the games available run slightly better on another system. The only thing this favouring the 360 tends to perpetuate is the 360's attach ratio utterly dominating the PS3's, and that's not a trend I see going away any time soon(as the 360 has always been the avid gamer's choice anyway). The way I see it, the more casual gamers(as in people who just play madden/pro evo and GTA) are how the PS3 is going to make up the distance between it and the PS3, if only because of brand recognition. For a game like DMC, it's probably going to sell more on the 360, because hardcore gamers are statistically more likely to buy it on the 360, and such it is understandable that development would be prioritised thusly. I would suggest however that rather than being pissed that the PS3 version is ever so slightly worse, be happy for multi-platform releases.
xenon's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 09:28
xenon
This is the stupidity of having hardware engineers working hard to make diverse and powerful machines and then having software developers fighting hard to counter the engineers work and make the platform difference transparent. Before it was: you have to paint on paper, you have to paint on cardboard, make it look more or less the same. Now it is: you paint on a wall, you paint on a metal plate, make it look exactly the same. How stupid and pointless is that?
Samit Sarkar's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 13:11
Samit Sarkar
@hjd_uk, brad drac: Yes, I should’ve definitely mentioned publishers in my write-up, since they’re the ones footing the bill. It’s a joint issue, to be sure. Regardless, I’m just annoyed that I get screwed over with many multiplatform games (again, see Madden NFL 08) just because I happened to pick the PS3 over the 360. Personally, I don’t ever plan on getting a 360 — there’s not really much that’s 360 exclusive that I want.

And again, I’m tired of the old “the PS3 has no games” argument. It simply isn’t valid anymore. And it will likely have completely gone out the window by the end of this year.
TheDespised's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/03/2008 13:37
TheDespised
Very old news when posted...Sammy needs to try harder next time.
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