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The Future: It's 2010, and games still aren't art photo
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Have you ever played a game so beautiful, so thought provoking, that you knew it was art? Too fucking bad. It's the future, and games still aren't art.

"But author of this blog entry" you say "I've played Shadow of the Colossus. That game was art."

Nope, not art. Games can't and won't be considered art until we start making games for the sake of making art. We also need to press a cultural revolution where, instead of games being expensive toys, games are respected on the level of literature, music, movies and classical art.

Let me explain. 

Games, right now, are caught in an awful in between. You have a generation of people, let us call them the "nay sayers", that is made up of our parents and their parents. Chances are, if you are reading this, you understand the potential that games have to be art. Chances are, if you understand this potential, you understand that your parents and their parents don't. That's okay. There is an even better chance that your parents and their parents have owned/seen/interacted with a Wii and think that they too can have in on videogames. Don't tell them I said this, but it will take most of them dying out before we see any change in the industry.

You see, these "nay sayers" will never know videogames like we know videogames, because they've grown up without them. Sure, they can appreciate them, but a good portion of our generation (and when I say "our" I mean anyone who touched a home system before college) was actually raised with videogames. Videogames have been implanted in our psyche, the same way our parents grew up with television, or their parents grew up with books. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the leading reasons today's kids are still literate is because of a) the Internet and b) videogames. We are a different breed, just like every breed before us we are a product of a newer world.

When I was in elementary school, I played through Final Fantasy VII. I learned that, by hitting buttons on a controller, I could move an avatar through a story more interesting than I could think up on my own and do things cooler than I could ever do on my own. I could save a world. I don't know what my dad did in elementary school, but I'm sure he used his imagination, or something equally as futile (maybe he drew something) and got nothing out of it. He's successful now, and I'm not. But when you put a game, an art game, like Shadow of the Colossus, in front of the two of us, he wouldn't be able to figure it out enough to actually "experience" it. I could.

Games require that you have some kind of motor skills and enough comprehension of a controller to complete a game. My dad won't touch any game on a console because he can't stand holding a controller in his hands. How do we expect the world to acknowledge games if they can't even play them? No wonder Roger Ebert doesn't believe games can be art, when he wouldn't be able to play through Silent Hill 2 even if he tried. It would take him so long, counting on skills and a controller he never learned, to get through that he'd more than likely give up.

That's problem one: there are people out there who just, no matter how hard we try, will NEVER be able to truly play videogames. These people will always exist, but a lot of them will die out and that problem will have solved itself (for the most part).

Problem two is that the industry is run like Hollywood. Someone comes up with an idea, they try to get funding, and, if the people with money cut them a deal, a game is born. The problem is that people with money don't like to spend money without getting money back, so naturally they will do everything in their power to make sure a game will turn a profit. They will influence the original vision in some way, and, at that point, the vision has been compromised.

Sometimes people are given the opportunity to do more of what they want, and the less compromised the vision generally the better the game. Shadow of the Colossus, Braid, Ico, Flower, Metal Gear, Katamari Damacy, etc are all examples of this principle in action. But the problem is that all of these games had to turn a profit of some kind. If the developers were allowed to do whatever they wanted, without ever worrying about money, imagine the kinds of games we could be playing!

Sadly, we are only just seeing the influx of a healthy indie dev community in this generation; they still need to turn a profit, but they are still more artistically in tune with their work than, say, Infinity Ward. But, to my point, so long as money is an issue, games can never be truly genuine.

"But...but..." you say impatiently "games can still TOTALLY be art. Don't be such a downer!"

You would be right, but the third problem is that games are ALSO meant to entertain people. If a game is not fun we would wonder why someone even bothered to make it at all. But why? Imagine a game that made you feel awful playing it. A game that just tried to upset you. We would probably not want to play such a game, but if video games are to ever move past being just fancy toys we have to be prepared to be challenged by them. We have to embrace games as experiences, and not expect them to entertain us in some way.

The point I'm trying to make is, an artist works in the studio and comes out with something; a writer writes, a painter paints, a singer sings. A game developer needs a team, and resources, to do much of anything. When someone can sit down, or enter a studio, and come out with a product without worrying about anything else, games will be able to be art. There will come a time, but that time is not yet here.








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130 comments | showing # 1 to 50
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GamesAreArt's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 02:40
GamesAreArt
I find it funny how people think that once enough people think that once games are good enough/are recognized as good enough the medium magically transforms into art.
mikeyed's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 02:42
mikeyed
I don't know. I didn't really want to play the Columbine RPG game, it's fairly easy to play, and it didn't turn a profit. It was uncomfortable, but it made a statement. I think that falls under your definition of art, eh?
GamesAreArt's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 02:42
GamesAreArt
Remove the second once(Damn mistakes, will proofread more in future)
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 03:02
sandorasbox
I dont believe the Columbine RPG game is art, because its retarded. The game was made in poor taste, without any kind of higher purpose other than to be offensive. What I had in mind when I said "uncomfortable" is closer to what Silent Hill achieves, where you actually dread your experience.

Art requires an artist and a medium. That isn't to say that we dont have that already, but there are too many obstacles between the artist's intention and the full potential of the medium. Off the top of my head, Braid and Another World are two games where single artists took their vision and delivered it as best as they could through their own hands. Thats not to say that it has to be one person, because art has always been collaborative to some degree, but both men had to make compromises so as not to go bankrupt in the process.
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 03:05
sandorasbox
Its also slightly hilarious that the user with the name "GamesAreArt" is the first person to respond to this.
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 03:38
sandorasbox
AH! I totally forgot about Cave Story.

Cave Story is, in every way, the closest thing to art the medium has produced.
Ubersuntzu's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 04:01
Ubersuntzu
I don't think the problem is that too many consumers are casuals. It's that even among the hardcore, not many people are willing to spend hard cash on something that isn't extremely entertaining before it can be anything more than that.

We've got a lot of indie developers making 2D games or 3D adventure games, but outside of mods I haven't seen much of anything that offers the experience of a modern retail game (necessarily without the high end graphics and professional voice acting) that really tries to be artistic. Both developers and consumers need to be willing to try a new approach to this problem if they want more than a small handful of games that could qualify as art.

Even Ico and Shadow of the Colossus probably wouldn't have been made if it was Sony themselves paying to develop quality exclusives.
Ubersuntzu's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 04:01
Ubersuntzu
*if it WASN'T Sony themselves
SAMA1984's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 07:07
SAMA1984
I say games can be an art, and like art, not everyone is wired to "get it."

I understand the shifts in gameplay, the dramatic moments that blow you away, the jaw-dropping moments, the moments that could fuel you with hate for one character, the moments that make you shed a tear (or cry) out of a feeling of sympathy or loss, and the moments of glory which fuel you to perform at your best.

Examples, which are potential spoilers, include:
Shadow of the Colossus: When you realize how selfish you are, but still have to kill the magnificent creatures for your own selfish cause.
Dragon Age: Origins: Specifically, if you decided to spare Loghain and take him under your wing. The speech he gives at the game's climax is powerful.
Valkyria Chronicles: A sniper shot interrupts a special, heartwarming moment. The resulting shock and sense of loss, as well as the surviving characters' ways of dealing with it, gave me an unquenchable desire to see the conflict through.
Lost Odyssey: An extended cutscene shows a happy reunion being cut short by a tragic death. My eyes swell up every time I remember it.
Halo (entire series): You get a sense of being indestructible many times during the story, when facing insane odds. The epic music boosts that feeling incredibly.
Gears of War 2: While rescuing the prisoners the Locust took. In two rescues, you believe your search is over and that the prisoner is saved, until they meet a tragic, if predictable end. You see it coming, but you can't help but repeatedly say "No" as you watch the events unfold.
Call of Duty 4: The nuke. If you haven't played it, you should. The depressing feeling you get when you know what's coming is overwhelming.
Modern Warfare 2: A betrayal results in one of the most awesome characters in the game to die horribly. One scene which drove me to loathe the man doing the betrayal.

it could be said that games do death really well, and I agree. To me, art is about the things that ignite powerful emotions in you, and games do that extremely well.
Roek's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 07:20
Roek
It's just my personal opinion that games are a different fashion of art. Regardless of the numerous creative foibles a development team might face in the current state of the industry, a well-rounded dev does have to make a lot of conscious choices about the overall experience of a game. Take for instance a lot of the lauded elements of games today:

Control: What's the most efficient way a player can use a platform's controls to navigate and interact with the world that's been constructed for the game? Is it important for camera control, and if so, how will it operate?

Pacing - How often is the player being presented a new challenge or ability? Is this challenge/ability fun enough to repeat several times through a game, just in different contexts?

Storytelling: Do we want to unfold the narrative in a cinematic style (cutscenes) or do we want it to unfold within the game space itself (i.e., Half-Life)? What are the advantages and disadvantages of both routes? Do we want a hybrid story presentation? How important is story to our game at all (do we want to tell a story or do we want to develop or game based on reflexive skills)?

And then so much more.

We see crap games because I don't think some developers are very aware of all these elements they need to consider. Sometimes they're just like "Oh let's borrow from GTA because that sold incredibly well -- must be instant-win" when they don't realize all the subtle creative aspects that were planted in GTA.
Sean Carey's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 09:01
Sean Carey
I agree that the commercialism of the games industry is sometimes a barrier to the creativity that would allow games to reach more of their artistic potential. However, I can't help but get the feeling that you're romanticizing other forms of art a bit here.

"a writer writes, a painter paints, a singer sings" -- yes, and no.

All of these artists must clothe, house, and feed themselves. The days where many artists had patrons who allowed them to work and create freely are gone for ALL the arts. You have to make it BIG before you have the freedom to pick and choose your projects at will and still provide for your essentials. The products of all the arts are made very often with an eye for what will sell, and the proceeds from that are used to provide the freedom necessary to create what they truly want without the worry of starvation or homelessness.

Games do the same in many cases. Studios, and even publishers, milk their cash cows so that they can take chances on games that are more original or creative in nature.

There's a balancing act to be done, for sure. I'm feeling you on a few points here, and this is a well-written piece -- but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
phantomile's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 11:48
phantomile
This isn't even worth thinking up a long-winded response when you just dismissed a game as "retarded". Just commenting to let you know you're an idiot. :]
CelicaCrazed's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 12:28
CelicaCrazed
My parents game and their parents are resting in peace. Games are now art!!

But seriously, just take a look at Jet Grind Radio. If you take it at face value, the visuals of the game, with its cel-shading, is fairly artistic and was completely new at the time. The music, done mostly by Hideki Naganuma, produced sounds unlike anything ever produced. There is the story with the over-dramatic crackdown on freedom of speech. The gameplay and its use of graffiti as an expression of your soul against the big corporations. The fact the game was seen as more than just a graffiti-simulator is why the game was not banned in North America.
Occams electric toothbrush's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 12:28
Occams electric toothbrush
Even if you doubt the game itself or the reasoning behind it, it's still art to someone.
falinter's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 12:29
falinter
When one man can download a freeware program that lets him make current generation quality games without very much programming knowledge, then games will be art.

The price for entry is too high and the medium is too money oriented for there to be anything more mainstream games created by giant corporations or random lucky small devs.
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 14:16
sandorasbox
I would like to point out that I am an art student at one of the top art schools in the country. While that doesnt entitle me to be any more right than any of you, I certainly have spent a lot of my time in school talking about the philosophy behind art, as well as studied the history of different movements and schools. Pretty much all I have been doing for the past three years is art related.

When I sit down to paint, I am free to paint whatever I feel like. I have plenty of friends who design their own earthenware, and they too are free to make it however they feel fit. Our artistic visions are free to blossom because we can connect with our mediums. As it stands now, despite major advancements, games are MUCH too entertainment/financially oriented to allow that kind of freedom. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is a goal we should continue striving for.

Games are totally capable of being art, there just needs to be a shift in perspective and our culture to start acknowledging them and treating them as such.
Sean Carey's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 14:56
Sean Carey
@Sandorasbox -- Firstly, that's great about your scholastic achievements and I'm sure there's much we can learn from what you're experiencing there. However, I'll ask you to take a step back and see if maybe your environment isn't clouding your view of the greater issue you bring up in your post.

Right now, you and your friends can focus fully on your art, because you are in school. Once you leave that wonderful and artistically nurturing environment, you will have to learn to make your way with the skills you're honing there. This will more often than not involve catering to the tastes of others to some degree, since the purchase of your art will be the determining factor in if you eat or not.

This doesn't mean your painting will no longer be art. It just means your painting won't be solely motivated by your artistic impulses. You will have to take the "business" side of things into consideration.

Games, while perhaps leaning a bit too far into the corporate sphere of influence, are still perfectly capable of containing artistic merit and paying the bills at the same time. By your rationale, games would have to be somehow subsidized in order to have the potential to be art. That ain't gonna happen.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 15:27
Tubatic
"I would like to point out that I am an art student at one of the top art schools in the country."

I'm so sorry...

Enjoy every minute of it please.

See you on the outside, friend.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 15:40
Tubatic
On topic though, what's your opinion of Passage?
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 15:50
Tubatic
If you haven't, go directly here to do so. Do not research.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 15:51
Tubatic
played it,that is.

heh, spam...
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 16:39
sandorasbox
Sorry I came off sounding so douchey, I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not just some idiot to that guy who called me an idiot. I am in no way trying to impress anyone, just pointing out that art is something that makes up a huge chunk of my existence.

@walkyourpath:

I agree with almost everything you said. The one thing I neglected to mention is that a lot of my friends, despite graduating and moving on to totally unrelated jobs, still paint, or record albums, or write on the side. Those that sell their work can sell their work because there is an actual demand for art, which has been created over the extraordinary long history of mankind. The first pots and drawings (labels) were created out of necessity, without any artistic process in mind.

Games are a lot closer to film in that they are a much newer medium. Part of the reason I don't believe games are CURRENTLY art (which is not to say they are devoid of artistic merit) is that games have hardly reached their potential. It took affordable access to video equipment for video art to blossom, since prior to that the barrier to entry was so high no one was free to experiment. Video was never truly art until people were free to make literally whatever they wanted. I see video games being exactly the same way.

I don't think an artist's art is truly compromised if they adjust it to suit a buyer's taste (because they are still control, artistically), but the art is compromised when it is forced to become entertainment. I don't think anyone, ever, has hired a development team and given them complete freedom to actually experiment with the medium as a medium. The fact that we call them games shows the inherent expectation that they need to be entertaining.

If you were to give Ueda, or Kojima, or any of the world most talented designers (and their teams) to do whatever they wanted to do with the medium, with no other expectations, we would actually see art. So long as they are paid to make games, they will continue to just make games.

@Tubatic:

I will check that out :D
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 16:42
sandorasbox
Also, sorry about using the word "medium" so many times.
D-503's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 16:45
D-503
I don't want to go into a long rant here, but art is art no matter how accepted or accessible.

"I dont believe the Columbine RPG game is art, because its retarded."
I think you should find out what art really is because you seem to have a limited scope.
sandorasbox's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 17:07
sandorasbox
Art can be anything, so long as the artist is truly free to do whatever they want. The point I've been trying to make is that such an environment doesn't exist. Yet.

I'm sorry if calling the Columbine RPG retarded offended you, but that game does nothing but insult and set back the gaming community. Not only is is a poorly made RPGMaker game, but any of the constructive points the creator wanted to make could be handled in a way where he didn't help demonize the medium by tactlessly glorifying a tragedy. I've played it and I found it just as immature and irreverent as any of Jack Thompsons arguments.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 17:27
fulldamage
In general, the very existence of this consumer/corporation model in which games are born, limits them from being true "art" in the sense of being the result of a transcendent inspiration that the artist creates purely for the sake of it. On the other hand, history also turns many things into art, that didn't start out that way. Wasn't the roof of the Sistine Chapel a commissioned work, for $ rather than for love? It's a slippery slope, too. Music, surely, is art - but pop music can't be, because it's a product. Unless it inspires people, then...?

It's really damn hard for a single artistic vision to survive the kinds of processes that turn ideas into gigantic money-making franchises. I think that smaller teams probably have a better shot at it than large ones. And it would be wonderful if the funding came from somewhere other than just the publisher - like countries where arts (and thus occasionally games) get subsidies from the government. I agree with your observation that you can't really get art until you allow a creator to create their own thing, at their own pace, without forcing them to make changes based on people who hold the purse strings.

I also have to remind myself, from time to time, that not everyone gives a crap about art, so my perspective might be skewed.

Anyway, thanks for the post!
TheDRMaster's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 18:55
TheDRMaster
Agreed.
pixelpunx's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 19:18
pixelpunx
I've always thought that good art comes from a place where no money is involved. I agree with the notion that AAA titles created by large developers are ruled by a volatile economy and finicky consumer base. This enviornment creates an atmosphere that isn't exactly geared towards creating art. It's geared towards making money.

Games, like any emerging medium, can often be described as being split into two categories: mainstream and underground. Mainstream endeavors appeal to the masses and make money for investors. Underground efforts lead to more meaningful experimentation that many consider art.

I disagree with the notion that Games are not art. By writing this blog, the fact exists that at least one person in this world believes Games ARE art. As long as a user perceives on object as having intended meaning, the object could be considered art.

In short, if one were to be searching for artistic games, they wouldn't be examining the mainstream. They would be searching the deep and dark caverns of the internet for the people who have created games with an intended purpose.

I like your article.

Fuck corporations.
Lex Singleton's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 21:27
Lex Singleton
Thats such a distressingly sobering post. I suppose in a lot of ways your so right. We either have to wait for big developers to see the light, or we place all our hopes on the indie scene. Still, I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic. A time may come when a studio is willing to make a loss on a game so that it can gain a much greater appreciation from the gaming community. Look at Team Ico. EA get a lot of shit from gamers- i wonder what they would pay to be as well loved as Team Ico?
Loogibot's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/25/2010 23:25
Loogibot
It is art. Art can be fun, depressing, angering, educational, or even stupid. The definition of what 'is' and what 'isn't' art, is neither scientific nor via general consensus. Games are art, and those who oppose it as art do so because they simply don't want it to be.
ChickenNow's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:34
ChickenNow
"I dont believe the Columbine RPG game is art, because its retarded."

Your personal opinion doesn't always equal to the truth, I hope you at least acknowledge that.

If your theory is that games are not art yet because not enough people consider them to be so, you're part of the problem, no?
Magesx's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:36
Magesx
Games are indeed not art.













Oh well.
D-503's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:37
D-503
@ sandorasbox: If the artist is truly free to do whatever they want than why did you just say the Columbine RPG can't be art. That doesn't make sense. It's art whether you like it or not. If it's art that contributes little or glorifies tragedy then it's still art.

Film is art and it is always collaborative so I don't think that's a strong argument. "The Creation of Adam" wasn't painted by just Michelangelo and it's not like he was given free reign on the project, it was for the church! I think your arguments a joke. You limit art by limiting definitions.
Grobstein's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:38
Grobstein
This is completely asinine.

By your definition, Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling isn't "art" -- after all, Michelangelo had to meet certain religious specifications in his painting; he wasn't completely "free" to do whatever; he was doing it partly for money; etc. According to your theory, in fact, almost none of the history of painting is "art," made as it so often was for patrons or worldly powers, and subject to their influence.

The situation that you and your fellow art students face is almost completely unique in history -- it and your set of expectations and norms about "art" are probably less than a century old. How can you rule out so much of the long history of human creation?
Drewcifer000's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:39
Drewcifer000
Depressing but true.
GonzoJoe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:43
GonzoJoe
Your post is a commendable effort to tackle a touchy subject, but I think you ultimately fall victim to the same inevitable pitfall that makes any take on this argument to be perpetually futile. The definition of art is, if not exactly a purely subjective definition, is certainly a debatable thing. You would be better served to make a more concrete definition of art, and then go on to differentiate the state of games from that definition.

There is also a logical inconsistency in your premise that one of the reasons games can not be considered art is the barrier of entry into their appreciation. This is actually a good point when discussing the role and applicable demographic of games in general, but is irrelevant when discussing art. Is Picaso not art because his work is not immediately apparent as such to an untrained eye?

You are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person who enjoys the back-and-forth of a debate about abstract concepts. To that end, this is a great post.
Zeta Crossfire's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:43
Zeta Crossfire
I disagree
Jared Ari's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:44
Jared Ari
Uncharted 2
TLoZ: Ocarina of Time
Bioshock

kthxbai
ndschroede23's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:48
ndschroede23
@Loogibot

I think it's important that one distinguishes between "what I believe is art" and "what everyone else believes is art." I'm not saying that one is more important than the other, but the latter has more relevance in this situation. I think what sandorasbox is talking about/advocating (and, sandorasbox, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) is getting most people to consider video games as a valid artistic medium. As he has stated, video games can be a valid arena for art to be created in. But not many other people look at the medium that way, and thus no one really uses it to make art. So I guess in a sense, we're talking about everyone accepting the medium as art, not personal individual beliefs.
StealthKnight's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:49
StealthKnight
I don't think every game is art (like halo) but to say games can't be art is too narrow of a viewpoint. There are movies that are regarded as art, books, theater, so why can't video games? There are people who don't like books, theater, or they don't understand the art of what they are experiencing but that does not mean that they are not art. Motor skills are not required for all. The majority of adventure games, and interactive novel have next to no requirements for motor skills but they still are game. How we judge art depends on the medium and the viewer.
ndschroede23's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:51
ndschroede23
I responded to the post's comments before I responded to the post. My bad.

Anyways, great article, and I always love to hear discussions like this. The artistic potential for video games is very high, but it simply hasn't reached its potential yet. I think the more we talk about why we aren't there yet, the closer we get to getting there.

Of course, you have to worry if we're just preaching to the choir. The people that need to be engaged in this discussion, at some point, are games' developers and creators, not their fans and appreciators.
nakedeyes's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:55
nakedeyes
What about EVERYDAY SHOOTER?

Programmed, Designed, Animated, and Sound Tracked all by one dude. That takes an artistic level of passion. It plays like a game, and at the same time has a subtle ways of letting the player know that there is more to it than just a simple Dual-Stick Shooter
sheppy's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:59
sheppy
This entire argument has already been defeated countless times by the art community itself.
carg0's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 19:59
carg0
*laughing

my god, what an insipid argument, lol. i hope you didn't spend more than 15min putting that mess together, young man.
Camiwaits's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:00
Camiwaits
Art is so beyond stupid these days with its happenings, performances and other types of half assed "experiences"

I don't see why games would want that label. But they can easily have them, in my opinion. Pretty much anything that takes you out of the ordinary or the routine, is art now.

I do appreciate that the gaming medium is evolving in its storytelling. I think that's a far better measure of the maturity and importance of video games: How they can create meaningful interactive stories.
Vanilla Gorilla's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:02
Vanilla Gorilla
Says you.
father33's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:06
father33
I think there needs a more clear definition of what would constitute a video game as art. Much of art whether it be dance, fine art, music is experienced in the creation of said art. For the most part, art is experienced passively by an audience to be internalized and interpreted. Video games by their sheer nature are interactive wherein lies the conundrum. in my experience, "flower" and "linger in shadows" are the two best examples of games approaching art.
Reginald's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:08
Reginald
its not a rule that you need a entire team to make a game. maybe to make a game quickly, but enough important games have been made with "teams" of literally one or two people. Crayon Physics, Braid, World of Goo, Samarost, Machinarium. these are all examples of what one or two people can create, and no one is there "diluting" their vision.

I don't believe the conflict between product and art is quite as compromising as you make it out to be. Good literature is indeed considered an ar t, and it so happens that shakespear and ballard both sell exceptionally well.silent hill 2 sold very well, but that doesn't make it any less a masterpiece. this is obviously a rare exception, but that what makes these games special.
gamadaya's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:08
gamadaya
I propose we do away with the entire fucking concept of art until a better definition is reached. Or just get rid of it forever. In fact, I prefer the latter.

A game can be a game, a movie can be a movie, and painting can be a painting; nobody will have to cram them uncomfortably into the categories of "art" and "not art". Statements like this:

"I dont believe the Columbine RPG game is art, because its retarded."
Could be shortened to this:
"The Columbine RPG is retarded"
And no real information would be lost.
Jumbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/26/2010 20:11
Jumbo
There's a whole lot of wrong in here.

Games are made by single man teams all the time. And art is made by huge factory's filled with assistants all the time. See Warhol, Murakami or Christo. You think Frank Gehry just built Bilbao all by himself?

"Sadly, we are only just seeing the influx of a healthy indie dev community in this generation"

Bullshit. You kids didn't invent indie games. I've been playing indie PC games since like '91. Dudes were making indie games back in the '70's on huge mainframes.

There's no such thing as something "being art or not being art". Most actual modern art is considered "not art" by most people. "Art" is a marketing term, like "All Natural" or "Indie Rock" as much as anything. If you say it's art and someone buys it and thinks its art that's good enough.

And Braid was made by two people.
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