As most of my Destructoid compatriots know, I await RPGs with intriguing storylines more than any other type of game. I enjoy nothing more than to sink myself into a rich plot, get to know the characters, and most of all, experience some form of emotional fulfillment at the end of the story for the work I've put into playing it. To my surprise, the last few I have looked forward to I've gotten fifty to sixty hours into and then simply never picked up again. Why this sudden transformation from game committment to total disinterest?
Hit the jump to spiral deeper within my addled psyche.
I clearly remember finishing a lot of the games I played for the NES, and I can't blame it on scarcity of product. Between friends that generously shared large cartridge collections and the game rental store down the street (Performance Hobby! I salute you), I played hundreds of games released for the system during its lifespan. Since I started playing often when I was about ten or so, I know I had the free time to complete them, but it seems to me something more was at work as to why I finished those games.
In the case of the games I was most driven to complete, I was so absorbed in them that I thought about them even when I wasn't playing them. Other new releases didn't get in the way because I wasn't interested in them until I completed the one I was playing. Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy X were great examples. I held them akin to reading a great book - by reading other books at the same time, you distilled the purity of the experience of the story.
In the current state of gaming, releases come out so frequently that we constantly have new "stories" to choose from. The biggest catalyst of "Endgame Syndrome" is definitely this factor. Since production values and budgets have risen to new heights, most games are gorgeous to look at. Some argue that one must wade in a sea of pretty games to try to find the ones that are worthwhile, so consumers are constantly sifting through large amounts of content and don't have the patience to spend on completing a game.
Another major factor seems to be length. BioShock was completely engaging, yet presented the story in a shorter timeframe. The more time you have in which to tell a story, the more challenges one faces to keep a gamer engaged. Considering the average attention span is twenty minutes, it's no small feat to create a game that can remain interesting to a player after 40 hours of play. Structural variance is also a key -- If you're doing more or less the same actions for the majority of the game, are they fun to do?
Most difficult of all is the experience of playing an enjoyable game and then abandoning it after committing many hours to the storyline. Eternal Sonata, I'm sad to say, fell into this category. I was pleased with the story, but I didn't think about it when it wasn't in front of me. It leaves you feeling disappointed when Endgame Syndrome kicks in in these instances. I did want to see the ending, but the drive to do so just evaporated, leaving me as confused as waking up naked with an otter. ( I need to stop drinking at those Zoo-To-Do events.)
Is it that games aren't what they used to be, or is it that gamer attention spans have shortened over time? I fear that some of both are present, although I am always hoping to be pleasantly surprised. The shape of the industry that creates these games has dramatically changed. In 1985, few people would have dreamed that games would one day rival the film industry. As a result, more experimental projects may have turned into playable results, which at the very least promoted creativity.
Whatever the secret formula is, recent feedback proves even RPG giant Square-Enix can't always hit the nail on the head anymore. Avoiding Endgame Syndrome is simply a matter of being choosy about what titles you take home -- and even then, there's no ensuring you'll feel the spark. For me, those unforgettable stories that are worth finishing are worth the search, no matter how many duds I have to sort through to get there.
[Thank you, Dtoid team!]
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I agree with you, i had the same feeling for Bioshock and now Episode 2. Even if they are good and great games, i just dont find it encouraging to play it a 2nd or 3rd time...
I was about to fight Sin in Final Fantasy X when I just said screw it and quit and gave the game to a friend. It just didnt interest me anymore.
This kinda happens to me, but near the beginning. So far I'm about 30 minutes into both Fallout and Kinetic Cipher, and no desire to go any further.
I've had Endgame syndrome on Parasite Eve, Wild Arms, Legend of Mana, Chrono Cross, Mario & Luigi, Metroid Prime Hunters, Fire Emblem, Half Life 2 Episode One, the list goes on and on... :(I'm in the process of finishing Parasite Eve though :P
It was the same with me, when I was playing FFVIII. It's a fantastic game, I liked, the story, the characters and everything. But. I dunno, I reached the second CD (about 10 hours of play, I'm kinda noob I know), but I just didn't continue it... Just don't know why. And when I had the opportunity, I just didn't had the willpower to play it again.
This made me depressed.
It's not like it was back in the days of N64/PS1/PS2 for that matter.
I would be fully engaged in a games story, and now.. I don't even know.
I blame achievements.
Chrono Trigger...
I'M SO ASHAMED. ;_;
I'm getting worse and worse. Part of the blame goes to the game rental company I'm with - I'm on a 3 month free trial, so I feel the need to get as many games as possible in that time period. I sent back without finishing Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (the actual gameplay was pretty cool, but the story was annoying an inane as hell) and Kameo (got frustrated with one bit, couldn't be bothered), and I'm pretty close to giving up on Saints Row and LoZ: Wind Waker because both are starting to piss me off.
On the other hand I recently completed Bioshock, GRAW, Battalion Wars and I'm almost done with Phoenix Wright 2. All of the first 3 are fairly short, and I think that's the key here. Phoenix Wright is longer, but I tend to look at each case as a separate game, which make them short as well. It boils down to this: I'd much rather have 5 hours of great gameplay and 5 hours of padding in a 10 hour game, rather than 10 hours great and 30 grinding in a 40 hour one.
There is so much new stuff out now that wanting to reply a game doesn't really bare thinking about.
Of course, now I am an adult I can go and buy games at any time but before when my money was limited I would really make it count. I cannot say how many times I've completed Resident Evil 4. Maxed out everything in FF7 and looked shocked when Tomb Raider 2 ended and I just had to get all those achievements (;s).
But now I've completed Halo 3 and the only thing I can think of the story I really enjoyed was the car bit near the end. I'm so excited about Call of Duty 4 that I haven't touched 3 and not even completed 2. So much new stuff coming out stopping me from really getting into my other stuff :(
I get this with LOADS of games. I must have about 30 on the backburner, some I will maybe return to months even years later (ie with KH1, but when I returned I still hated it lol). Final Fantasy games are really good at sucking you in, however I'm just not digging 12 at all atm, maybe it's because I'm distracted by 360, but I've played about halfway and am not motivated to finish it. Maybe it's the fear of not wanting to relearn the game halfway through (too much to deal with with all those liscense boards and gambits etc lol). I recently restarted both System Shock 2 and Fallout 2 and got about a quarter of the way through both of those, but again have stopped playing them. The weird thing was when I was playing them I was totally immmersed, but when I left them for a few days I just forgot about them. I really should finish Shadow of the Collosus as well and then play Ico, which I've bought but not played yet lol. Looking at my shelves of games I reckon probably between quarter-half haven't been finished which is sad really becaue 90% of the games I buy are always A+ quality games. I just lose motivation somehow. Too much choice perhaps?
I suppose it depends on your appreciation for the amount of fun you had while playing them. Like a movie you can watch over and over again even though you know the ending, much like them there are few games i can play over and over.
I think it has quite a lot to do with the number of incredible games, and not so incredible games, that we get these days. It's quite hard to remain focused on a game when you're thinking about the game coming out next week. Didn't we get skate, Bioshock, Halo 3, Metroid Prime 3, Orange Box, all in the past month and a half? I know this doesn't account for all of the lackluster in completing games, but it's all I got. Also, I know that I had a major problem mustering up the desire to beat a game once I saw a friend/roommate beat it, but that's not on the macro scale.
"Complete the task"
Too many games,so little time...And rpg's repetitive gameplay set in when you know the story already or realize how the story is so cliche'.
Yeah, my main reason for abandoning a game is just that there are so many games to play, and not enough time to play them. Which sucks, because RPGs are also my preferred genre. I never finished DQ8, and it bugs me everytime I look at the box. It took me months to finish FF12. I'm afraid to start Eternal Sonata because I know I won't finish it. I'm both ecstatic about Mass Effect and dreading its glorious depth.
I always get endgame syndrome, even on games I love. Playing a game for 40 hours or so when you have a full time job, a house and a family to care for, not to mention tons of other great games. And look around there are a lot of other things that could distract a gamer today, the internet, lots of great movies out this year, hell people are evereading more there days.
Alot of older gamers have to face this too.
I'm having it with Blue Dragon now, and had it with FF8. You know that once you go in, you will finish the game anyway. So why go in? Everything that comes afterwards would be predictable and easy once you go in (you get max levels and weapons most of the time), so after you are ready for it... it just doesn't feel like it's worth it.
Better to just leave the last boss for another time, and check Dtoid for new articles ;)
I don't think the important thing is how new the game is (whether new games can keep your attention for that long compared to old games). It's a combination of short attention spans, whether the game is good, and also probably growing up a little.
During a summer in high school, I was able to blow through Tales of Symphonia in a few days because my activities were eat, sleep, read, ride bikes and play Tales. It was a constant cycle, and I was kind of disappointed that it was "too short" when the credits started rolling. Final Fantasy V, however, is probably half the length, but I can't bring myself to finish it today. Part of it is school, but even when I have free time I just don't feel like sinking hours into an RPG anymore.
I played FF12 for about 12 hours and gave up. I really couldn't care less whether you're baron von cockenbox of dalmasca mate.
Incredible post. Although I can't say that I'm having that problem now because of the fact that I am playing shorter games. I hope that doesn't happen with Final Fantasy Tactics. It's the first RPG in a while that I'm actually into.
i did that with dragon quest 8 for a while but im glad i went back to it. BEST RPG EVAR.
i dont think i have finished a RPG since rpg'ing on the super nintendo...
then i blaime my fustration with rpg's with fucking world of warcraft, which never fucking ends..
I own four of the Final Fantasy titles but have never finished any of them (furthest I've got is the last boss on VIII). Same with Oblivion: 70 hours down and fatigue set in. Why? Because, especially with RPG's and to a lesser extent with FPS's, the player's options are fairly limited. Oblivion got dull because I felt like I'd internalised all the 'rules' of the game, I was starting to see through the code, Matrix style. Every quest became a mixture of the basic fight, retrieve and escape plotlines, every fight boiled down to 'hold block, then attack when they stagger'. Occasionally there'd be something new and exciting, but when it got to the 'find all the oblivion gates, climb a really big tower and get an orb' super-quest I put it down. When you know exactly how close you can get to an enemy before they spot you, when you know exactly how many times you have to shoot them before they die, the game loses all sense of fun and becomes a Grind.
Oh wow, I had to dust off my login to post to this one as I was just thinking about this with the release of Episode Two. I'm frankly terrible for finishing games. Two hands are enough to count all of the titles I've ever completely finished and I started gaming on the ZX Spectrum!
What's strange about that statistic is that I can play a good online multiplayer game for a year or two, several times a week, without giving up. Except WoW.
What I've found is that I only play a game until I find a way to beat whatever systems it implements. The designers can put in as many plot eleements or levels as they want, but if I find a way to beat the system then I'm done. Take Star Wars Galaxies (someone, please... hehe) as an example. I started playing with a group of friends who were concentrating on the grind. I soon discovered I could carry the equivalent of several heavy goods trains worth of mined ore in my pockets. Within a couple of weeks I had so much money I could buy anything I wanted. I'd beaten the MMO, job done, thankyouverymuchgoodnight.
I'm convinced this is why online multiplayer games with their heavy PvP bias have longer shelf-lives. You might know TwoFort inside out, but the fact that you're playing against real human beings means that it's impossible to "beat the system". This keeps the game minty fresh as real people constantly evolve new ways to beat each other.
If game developers want to get people to finish their games then perhaps they ought to spend less time on "whoops there goes my plot point" stuff and more time on building and unpredictable game mechanic that keep the player on their toes.
I get it a lot when i know I'm near the end of the game, i get an "oh, i can finish this anytime i want now" feeling, so i go play something else and end up leaving a lot of games 1-2 hours before the end,
so...i haven't finished bioshock but i want to. so how long do i have to go after i saved the forest?
I cant disagree with this entry. Lately I've been feeling the same about my gaming library. I made the choice of selling my copies of Gears & Halo 2 (reason? I was done, I experienced what it delivered, that was it).
But as of late, I havent picked up any new titles in awhile. The last game I picked up from a retail store was Spider-Man 3. And that's been months ago.
Right now, im striving without a job, coming back from visiting family for a month. And I refreshed myself into what else I enjoy. With games, its always been an escape, but leaving it alone for so long, I felt like I was missing something.
I did dive into a small segment of Halo 1 gunplay with a nephew, and his dad in a match of sniper for a good 3 hours. I haven't played that gametype in forever. later I dove into Oddworld Munch's Odyssee, sadly I could only get past the first few areas, but what I did walk through, I felt satisfied.
To tell the truth, I havent beaten some of my xbox, to 360 gaming library. For one, time, and 2nd, maybe my focus isnt what it used to be. But I do have intiative to hang in there for awhile, and come back after awhile. Although it may be sometime till I play the said title again, it will definitely be more than a few hours at best.
Foremost, i've held off finishing Castlevania - Curse of Darkness for some reason. Everytime I get farther, I seem to be pushed away. Yet it grabs me again, wanting me to divulge until my uneasiness is waned. Maybe its the controls, or the setting, but I know my progess is meaningful. And that's my goal for today, completing, and writing about it.
Repatition always made me hate games. Mafia and Saints row. and San andres alayws had diffrent missions to do. i beat those all the way through and was stoked in the end.
Holy shit, you just mentioned the very games I had that problem with.
I was engaged with Bioshock from start to finish, but Eternal Sonata could not hold my attention, it didn't help that a massive chunk of Eternal Sonata opens up during your 2nd game, which brings me to a question.
Who jumps back into RPG's as soon as you finish them? An RPG is one of the longest game types around, the last thing on my mind is playing through again right after I've finished it.
Personally I think the endgame syndrome might have more to do with some us getting older, I use to be able to play through any game I played, regardless of its quality, now I longer have the patience for long-winded stories, gameplay that is far to difficult and generally just tend to play either simple games or just something that catches my eye and makes me want to finish it. There's still one or two hard games I like going through, but its a lot less than it used to be.
the reason for shortened attention span (which is one cause of endgame syndrome)... one word: internets
also, "back in the day" (80's and 90's) most gamers were still kids. today, the average gamer age is over 30, which means most gamers are now grown up and have these pesky things called priorities (job, (to pay) bills, wife, kids) which leads to less spare time to devote to any one game.
We as a Society go in droves according to Trends...
Trends eventually fade till the next one!
Yes Wii... Trends!
Sweet post. i had the same experiences with FFX. To the point where i had to get my sister to take my calls, telling my friends that i was busy. Ditto with the MGS games.
Right now its a different story though, i've got ZOE, Killer 7 and RE4 lying unfinished. Considering i had to go through the hoops to procure them i feel kinda bugged. Hence my "to buy list' for this year is cut by half. Less games to buy, more games to finish.
I have too, sadly, gotten the Endgame Syndrome. I usually end up being pulled away by another game. I have so many games right now that I haven't finished yet. However, I've begun to make efforts to finish these games and hope that one day, I will finish every game I have in my libray (and it's quite a big one).
I'm just glad I haven't fallen victim to E.S with ALL of my games...
Too many good games come out at once. I'm having the same problem with Eternal Sonata as you. Lovely story, lovely characters, lovely everything, but I got so bogged down in all these new releases that I haven't played it too often lately.
What's even worse is that a lot of gamers have a complete library of games that need to be finished that may never be attended to.
I hadn't beaten Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow before I picked up Chaos Theory. I havent finished either, and after I had those two, I bought the first one and never touched it. That does have a lot to do with my idiot roommates dropping a tv on my xbox, but maybe I should sell those games...
We got old.
When you're 10 and looking for achievable goals to structure your days around, videogames are as good as anything else. Catching them all brings a real sense of achievement. But we don't play games for the sense of achievement like we used to. Now it's supposed to be "fun," which is a far more nebulous concept.
I've wondered about this phenomenon, also. Now that I'm spending my own money, you think I'd actually be finishing the damn things.
As we get older we have other things in our lives that distract us from games as well. I remember when I was a kid and I could spend hours upon hours playing a game like Puss in Boots for the NES, only because there was nothing else to play or do.
I have the same problem, I play a game, love it then I dont play it after I complete it.
I do like to play older games with really good story's every few months, its like a good old book, you know whats coming but you still play on.
Hay! I asked a question about this shit in one of the last podcasts.
Good article! but i couldn't finish Biosohck either haha
I shall now shed a tear for every game that I haven't finished and still own (about 40 - 50 titles). Once finished, I will heed my 3 favorite words of advice: SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP.
(...Or is it LATHER, RINSE, REPEAT?)
Sadly, Bioshock lost my interest right when it turned into a big escort mission. I even knew that wouldn't last forever, but just having it around was more than enough to lose my interest.
Strangely, the games I quit playing the most are games that almost force me to train my characters before fighting a boss or something.
Like, most of the Final Fantasy Games.
Its the same with porno.
I'm just to greedy on the amount of games I buy. I have 20 or so games to finish and I just don't have the time to finish them all. Some games I play for a while until they bore me, others I play till the end of storyline and some special games I finish hundred percent - like Cloning Clyde which I finished two day with all the clones saved, action figures found and time trials finished.
Wow, glad to finally seem some other admittance of this problem I thought I was the only one. I have to agree with Mabec though maybe as I'm getting older and no longer have the 6 hour afternoons or college days off to just lounge around and take down an RPG over a weekend that I enjoy and finish 5-20 hour games (like Sam & Max, HL2 Episodes, and Portal) over say Persona 3 which has like 80 hours worth of investment. Kudos for the article.
Well, I had some big addictions with many games, and if I'm addicted to an game I will finish it no matter what.
(All Mario games until GC and DS, Secret Of Mana, Secret Of Evermore, Final Fantasy 6|7|8 , Sword Of Mana, Tekken 1|2|3|TT|4, Grandia, Metroid Prime, Sonic Adventure, Illusion Of Time, some MegaMan games, Zelda games.)
And long time after that I wasn't able to finish any game anymore (years).
Well, and now I'm on the roll again^^ beating every game I get into my hands (Lost Planet, NFS U|U2|Carbon|Most Wanted, God Of War 1|2, Final Fantasy X, Monkey Island 1|2|3|4|5, Broken Sword 1|2|3|4 ....)
The search for good games is worth it, it's best to not always hope for new games, just look for old ones, there are many^^
Zerosan, I think you've got an extra Monkey Island in there :-D
I've done everything in RE4... and I do it again and again... I play that game through so many times and it never gets old. Planet Puzzle league will always have my attention... I love it so much... other games, eh... I still haven't finished Metroid Prime 3... but I'm at 90% complete... I do that a lot... Go through a game and quit at the end, I'll pick it up in a few more months... I don't know why I'm like this... but I've done it with Super Paper Mario, Baten Kaitos, Fable, Mario Sunshine, Oblivion, and many other games... I get to the very end and just drop it for 3 months... then I come back feeling like a noob and beat the game anyway.
Rogue Galaxy hit me hard with the Endgame Syndrome. I think its because all of the battles are the same thing, so I don't have much of a desire to grind through it. I really want to see the end of it and get to the endgame stuff, but man if the game isn't more monotonous than Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I'm a little scared to start FFXII and KH2 if I am gonna get the E.S. again.
I too have this problem, but it tends to happen to me more when I get stuck on a game, especially those rpgs.
A large portion of my collection of games I haven't finished, but occasionally, when I love a game enough it gives me the drive to pluck through it to the end.
Games I've not finished that stick in my mind are FFVII, VIII, IX and X. These have great stories but when that's hampered by annoying stuff, it kills my will to play.
Last games finished. RE1, RE2, RE3, Code Veronica and RE4 on GC, GRAW, Gears and GRAW2 on 360.
I also play less because I'm 29, with other stuff to do, but I try my best to find time for doses of gaming.
I got it with some of the final fantasies. Especially ff9, at one point I just stopped. Though I started over from beginning later, but then i stopped again at the SAME friggin place. Argh.
Wow I'm the King of abandoning games. Yeah I've abadoned quite a few games over the years, yet still own to this day.
[b]
Every Grand Turismo Game, lol
Final Fantasy 7 I beat, yay! FF8,FF9,FFX and FFX2 I gave up on all of those.
I never beat GTAIII. I haven't played it since 2003. I'm on the last mission. It's a timed mission though, grrr!!! Worst gaming feeling in the world is doing so much work only to be beaten by the clock and having to start over. No thanks! I beat Vice City though. Haven't beat San Andreas, Liberty Stories or Vice City Stories though. San Andreas I have to buy an expensive abandoned airport for my next mission to start, because actor john woods says so and I have like zero dollars. Fuck that! Haven't played it since like almost 2 years ago? Aw well. I'll get back to it eventually.
Metroid Prime. oh brother. It took me a year just to figure out the first planet. A few years back I played it again and managed to reach a snow planet. I thought finally i'm getting into it, but then I have to battle this impossible and frustrating boss battle. So I gave up.
Knights of the old republic. It took me an hour just to figure out how to open a door in the ship. I got bored of it after 5 minutes, same with DoomIII and Ninja Gaiden was too hard. Halflife2 I got sick of the slow down and choppy graphics.
I still haven't beaten Ocarina of Time. I'm at some confusing dungeon that well confuses me. so fuck that. I gave up on Wind Waker back in the day, but went back to it a few years ago and i'm proud to say I beat it. You all know the ending of Wind Waker too. Looking for pieces of the triforce or some long ass sailing bullshit like that. I'm stuck on Twlight Princess. I'm at that snow castle where ya snowboard. It's a confusing long ass level with frustrations around every corner. I gave up. I'll get to it eventually.
I gave up on Oblivion. I have no idea what to do. I just wander around and talk to people who tell me more information. I pick fights wuth guards and run away. I also reach points in the envioronment where my character can't go any further, wtf?
I beat Lost Planet though, yay! Not Saints Row though. I just stopped playing it. It got boring. Same with Call of Duty II and Rumble Roses. I beat Bioshock though, yay!
I played Halo1 and was bored to tears. Played Halo2, bored to tears. Halo3. I played the farthest I have in any halo game, but i'm bored of it now and the multiplayer bores me as well. All I play is Gears of War multiplayer.[/b]
I meant actor James Woods
Interesting post and comments. Personally, I finish games I start unless they are pure and utter crap within the first hour or so. BioShock, Graw, Graw2, Prey, Oblivion, HL2, F.E.A.R, R^:Vegas, PGR4, and the list goes on. Mostly shooters, but some RPG's as well. I spent 100+ hours in Oblivion. I like getting all the main content done, and I want the satisfaction of having completed something. If it's good, I'll do it again (F.E.A.R. about 9 times, R6: Vegas about 5, etc.).
I try to get less games, but spend more time with them. And... I don't mind if a shooter is done in about 7-8 hours. That's often better than the 20+ that Doom 3 took first time through... most of it all the same.
Counting only my GC, PS2, Wii and 360 games, I have 60 unfinished games, most I only played for maybe 5 or less hours. And yet I continue to buy each games that comes out that I want. Maybe 50 of them are really good games so I can blame : less time to play, less motivation, anime, work that gets me tired. Maybe I should start to finsh those that I'm near the end, like wind waker or paper mario 2. What is funny is that I still play my old games(snes, nes)and I actually finish them.
I would probably consider me more of a collector than a hardcore gamer now.
I have been playing games as a hardcore gamer for over 20 years now, and I can honestly say I finish more games now than I used to as a kid.
Alot of the games released pre 2000 really did suck, the quality of games has increased immeasurably since then in my opinion.
If people finish less games now than before, I would put it down to other demands on your time, and that life's priorities have shifted.
I never finished Chrono Cross, but not because it got boring. The damn second disc keeps crapping out on me!
1) Games are too heavily scripted, so they get predictable.
2) Companies focus on production value and detail rather than variety.
3) In the 90's, developers found that gamers are more likely to buy games for the sake of just playing the game, not reaching a specific goal. Engagement is more important than drive and accomplishment.
I have very high standards, so I choose my games more carefully, and play them longer. I really can't imagine spending $60 (or in the case of the Wii, $30 to $50) on a game and only play it once. If you only play it once, how good is it, really?
There are games I bought in the 90's, like Dungeon Keeper and Viper Racing that I still play frequently. A lot of newer games put me to sleep.
We need more strategy elements in games, more adventure games, and dynamic levels. Unfortunately, those games don't sell well. The mass market is still happy spending gobs of money on "disposable" games, so that's what is pumped out daily. I don't know anyone with fewer than 30 games for their DS, regardless of the "quality" level of each game.
* Capn Birdseye: "Alot of the games released pre 2000 really did suck, the quality of games has increased immeasurably since then in my opinion."
In what respect? Graphics and presentation has improved immensely, but core gameplay hasn't changed much. I like Nintendo's message of sacrificing graphics to focus on gameplay, I just hate that they've gone to the extreme and are just tossing out any weird quirk they come up with and being cheap with the production. Like any 3rd party developer, they have a couple really good games a year, and a hundred garbage titles.
Quality, by which I mean DEPTH, is very rare. The WOW and SecondLife