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Ten Golden Rules of videogame piracy photo

If you're reading this, then chances are good that you're what we might call a "hardcore" gamer. You love games. You love buying games. You want to have more games. However, unless you are Roman Polanski, it's highly likely that you don't have the kind of ready cash to consistently splash on such decadent items.

Why should a lack of funds, however, act as a barrier to your enjoyment of things? Why suffer the pain of unfulfilled desire when you can just take what you want? That's right, I'm talking about piracy. It's okay, we're all friends here, nobody's going to judge you. Take my hand, I've got a revelation for you.

Piracy is a magical process whereby you receive goods without paying money for them. It's a bit like stealing, except it's not because everybody knows that you can't steal the Internet, and that's all you're doing really. You're just taking bits of Internet for yourself, which you already pay for anyway. Sounds great, right? That's because it is.

So, now that you've definitely decided to be a videogame pirate, you're going to need to know how to do it right. You're going to need some Golden Rules. Ten of them, in fact. Even lawlessness has its laws, so come with me as we learn the Ten Golden Rules of videogame piracy.

1. You're going to buy it later:

First and foremost, even though you just got a videogame for free, you are definitely going to needlessly spend money later and buy it. Everybody else just pirates and leaves it at that, but you are a very special person that thieves a game just to see if it's worth spending money on. Once this is deduced, you will get rid of the game you have and then spend money to have it again. See? Not all pirates are bad. You are one of the good pirates who merely tries before they buy. Sometimes you go into the grocery store and take a few slices of bread home with you, to help you decide if it's worth going back later to buy the whole loaf. 

2. You're not going to buy it anyway:

Remember what we just said about you definitely buying the game? Well ignore everything to do with that, because you were never going to buy the game. This is a great way to justify your piracy, because it makes what you do 100% innocent. The basic reasoning for game theft is that you were never going to spend the money on it anyway, so technically the publisher of said game hasn't lost a sale. Logic prevails, and you now have a game that the publisher is perfectly fine with you owning. 

It's a logic that has saved many a man from the chopping block. Mike Tyson, for example, was never going to ask Desiree Washington if he could have sex with her, so technically he didn't rape her. He was instantly welcomed back into society for his wanton act of innocence. 

3. Act like a righteous freedom fighter:

The information wants to be free! You are a great liberator, saving the world from fascist copyright protection and bringing us one step closer to a perfect society. As a videogame pirate, you must always maintain that you are some sort of hero, and do it as obnoxiously as possible, to ensure that the people flock to your cause. 

Self-styled social heroes are the most popular people on the Internet, especially when they use such heroism to defend illegal activities. After all, Electronic Arts is an evil faceless mega corporation, which means you are allowed to steal that indie game that costs five bucks.

4. DRM made you do it:

DRM is designed to stop piracy, which is why it causes so much piracy. It's a bit like saying "I killed that cat because this cat is dead" but nobody will ever call you on your completely backwards logic. You were forced into a life of piracy because people tried to stop you from pirating things. It sounds like a ridiculous argument, but it is actually a brilliant one, with examples all across society -- drug addicts, for example, only shove cocaine up their ass because there are so many laws stopping them from doing it. Also, because it's so difficult to get a gun in the United Kingdom, there are ten times more shootings there than in any other country in the world.

If there was no DRM, and it became so much easier to pirate games, you bet your ass that NOBODY would steal another videogame. The first recorded theft in the world happened in 1996, the same year as the Content Scrambling System was introduced to DVDs. Nobody had even thought of stealing until DRM existed. Besides which, it doesn't work anyway.

5. The R4 is for homebrew:

The R4 is a perfectly legitimate tool and nobody has ever used it to completely rip off the Nintendo DS' game library. You can use it to play (legally purchased) movies or listen to (legally purchased) music on your DS. The main draw, of course, is all the homebrew that you totally use in between playing games that you own all the carts for. In fact, if you DO have any games on your R4, they are all definitely backups of games you already own. You just can't deal with the aggravation of putting all those unwieldy carts into the DS slot so it's handy to have all the legitimately acquired software in one place.

It amazes you that anybody would want to use the R4 for piracy when there are so many other legal applications for it. You're not even tempted.

6. Same goes for custom firmware:

And anyone who says you do anything illicit on your PSP is a fucking liar!

7. Going to the store is too much effort:

Imagine the scenario -- in order to legally purchase a videogame, you first have to fight your way out of bed, your bed being a vast whirlpool that threatens to suck you into its spongy clutches for all eternity if you don't use a system of weights and pulleys to winch yourself to freedom. After that, you must navigate your way through treacherous thorned paths and Jim Henson's Labyrinth to locate the shower, which spews molten liquid at your face and disfigures you for life. After you've endured the agony of showering, your next task is to put on some clothes. The clothes are made of poison. Once that is done, it's time to ride to the game store on the back of one of the Colossi from Shadow of the Colossus, which of course is an almost impossible task. 

If you've survived this life threatening trek to the store (some journeys are over an entire mile long) you have to find the Colossus' weak point and kill it, and then kill fifteen more. After that, you must then knock out the guards, Mirror's Edge style, because everybody knows that game stores are protected from outsiders by Shinra soldiers. After you have finally entered the store, you must find the game you want from a thirteen-mile long corridor lined with game case upon game case -- all of them without covers or labels. You must walk from one end of the corridor to the other, opening every single case and checking the disc inside to see if it is the game you require. Once you have finally found the game, a Sphinx will descend from the ceiling and demand that you answer a riddle before you are allowed to buy it. If you can solve the riddle, deemed so difficult that it has driven sane men mad and mad men sane, you may finally purchase the game.

From Lucifer. 

With a credit card that weighs eighteen thousand tons.

Then it rains for forty days and forty nights and you take the game home in a boat made of paper.

Is it any wonder that piracy is so rampant?

8. Piracy is good for the games industry:

In keeping with this image you have of yourself as a modern day John Rabe, you must argue that you are actually doing the games industry a service by stealing from it. Piracy is good for the games industry, and you don't need any facts backing that up because everybody knows it's true, like the existence of God.

In fact, if everybody in the whole world stole videogames and didn't pay for them, game companies would instantly make $100 billion from doing nothing.  

9. Games are so expensive:

Games cost a lot of money, so that means you're allowed to own them for free. Everybody has a right to have everything they want -- it worked for Communism, and it works here. Your theft of software sends a very powerful message to game publishers, who will be so rocked to the core by your principles that they will lower game prices by 90% and then games will be cheap enough for you to buy them ... and you'll certainly buy them, honest. 

In other news, golden crowns and cars made out of Fabergé eggs are also expensive. That means we should all have those for free as well. 

10. Never tell the truth ...

That you just like having shit and are too much of a cheap fuck to pay money for it.


Continue: More Ten golden rules stories





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191 comments | showing # 51 to 100

eternalplayer2345's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:30
eternalplayer2345
Friends don't let friends pirate 3d pinball
X3x3non's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:33
X3x3non
People make such a big deal trying to either defend piracy to the death or persecute it to no end. Get off your high horse. Piracy isn't something that is very nice (A), but who really gives a fuck (B).

People make a huge row about game piracy, yet ignore the MP3's on their very own IPOD. At this stage in my life I feel no responsibility to sustain an industry, maybe later.
auntnadia's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:38
auntnadia
a bit of a waste of an article methinks. the piracy debate will linger even longer than the perfect dark vs goldeneye one.

the way i see it. be a pirate and face the long walk down the proverbial plank, ending in prison and death row.

OR, don't be a pirate. know deep within yourself that you're holier than everybody else (including miyamoto and jesus). and sit there seething that some terrible people are exploiting the webs for booty that you can't afford.
Sinow Wolf's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:40
Sinow Wolf
I steal bread to feed my starving family is that a hangable offence to you?

See also; It was more of a rant than a list. If you wanted to you could've shouted at a wall for 5 minutes and taped it, it would've been funny then.
Kaspar's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:40
Kaspar
Really don't understand all the fuzz over piracy.

I pirate, because I don't have 70-90$ to spend on some game with no replay value etc.
I buy good games, games that have decent multiplayer, whatever.
And also, without the R4, I couldn't play 80% of the titles I'd like to, because there just aren't any DS games on sale.
Fronz's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:45
Fronz
GIVE THEM NOTHING! TAKE FROM THEM EVERYTHING!
Fronz's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:47
Fronz
Also, why has no one linked to this yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xfqkdh5Js4

"Don't Copy That Floppy!"
Mr Happyfunlovetime's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:47
Mr Happyfunlovetime
"I killed that cat because this cat is dead"
Best analogy ever.
CountingConflict's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:48
CountingConflict
Jim just started a shit storm. Just so you guys know, there was a pretty interesting forum thread about this. It was started by someone who followed all ten of these rules.

Check it out here

The funny thing about the entire thread is that I pirate things, because I am too fucking cheap (and broke) to buy anything. I was just arguing with SunTzu, because he was being a self-righteous prick about the entire situation.

I DRINK YO MILKSHAKE
hoi1ma's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:51
hoi1ma
@necrozen
great job makes perfect sense, when i'm confuse i too try to use logic thats simple and common sense like this theft argument. replace subject of hooker with any object and service, the logic still stay true. clearly irrefutable.
Demtor's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 11:53
Demtor

Jesus Approves of This Article
VWGTI's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:03
VWGTI
You've gotta be kidding me...
Zersturer's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:03
Zersturer
first of all, thank you Heretic and Necrozen!

Jim, if you had written a serious article which explicitly destroyed all the fallacious arguments people use to defend piracy, maybe we wouldnt have people like whormongr repeating THE EXACT ARGUMENTS you mocked

also, WTF whormongr? big ol' WTF?

"In the end I can say that if these morons really want to improve sales and stem piracy there are 2 things that they need to do-
A. give people a reason to want to buy games versus pirating it that doesn't punish the consumer
and
B. participate in the political forum to improve the economy as a whole"

again, WTF?

lets try something else. how about we all pretend we are game developers. we make a game, which takes thousands of hours of work. then we sell it to one person, with the agreement that they will not duplicate it for other peoples' use(fucking EULA, every game has one before you install it!). but they allow 20 people to torrent it. then what do you think? holy shit, all these people have gotten the enjoyment of my work without my permission or benefit. Games are services, not goods, so analogies to goods dont work.

copyright laws? nobody pirates a fucking 15 year old game, much less a 90 year old game, so saying the extension of copyright laws is unfair or wrong is irrelevant to teh discussion. people pirate games that are 5 years old or less, unless they are much older games that cannot be purchased any more.
DaedHead8's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:07
DaedHead8
Best. List. Ever.
Velt's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:09
Velt
Jim, i will go to england and live with you so I can have games.
Prepare a bed for me on the floor, or we can sleep together on the cold frosty nights of London.
Blind assassin's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:13
Blind assassin
People that pirate games are pieces of shit. Stealing anime can at least be justified by most of it not being ever or quickly available where the fan base lives. Now the only games that don't come to North America and Europe are "The Adventures of Weasel Jesus and Hercules Through the Magic Water Slide" and half of those are useless outside the lol factor anyway.

Also, Peteru, you are wrong. Piracy is theft. It's taking copywritten material without permission. Downloading pirated material, at the very least, makes people an accessory to theft as they're receiving goods (in this case data) they have explicit knowledge, or at least a reasonable expectation, is stolen.
redgopher's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:16
redgopher
Then there's people who have p2p copies of stuff they legally own so they don't have to install StarForce on their systems.
redgopher's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:16
redgopher
I'm talking about the copy of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory sitting in it's tin collector's edition case on the shelf behind me.
Blackhat's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:20
Blackhat
"Everybody has a right to have everything they want -- it worked for Communism, and it works here."

I'm pretty sure Communism never actually was claimed to do that ;)

I do enjoy the list, and belong to the #1 in fact -- although to this day, I've actually bought all the games I've pirated (a whole three!) My reasons for not pirating are entirely about how annoying it is, more than how noble I am. Not to mention most of the games I play are either un-piratable (TF2, for example) or ones I own from long ago (Deus Ex, for example.)
the GAMEGOBLIN's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:30
the GAMEGOBLIN
I think we should all listen to necrozen and start getting free blowjobs. We need those hookers off the streets and in libraries.

Brought to you by the Destructoid-Hooker alliance.


"We give a fuck... so they don't have to."
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:31
Sharpless
I use the first two excuses, but they're actually true for me. I've purchased CDs after having already downloaded the tracks. I don't have much, or any, money to spend on stuff right now, but I have every intention of gradually becoming an honest man, when the money hits.

And I almost never buy anything unless I've tried it out first in some form. There's no point, unless you have an idea of what you're getting. If I DL something and it's terrible, I'm obviously not going to buy it.
whormongr's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:32
whormongr
@Zersturer apparently you didn't read what I wrote at all, exactly the point I was making- you walk to the table with a mouth full of rhetoric and a chip on your shoulder- if you paid attention I downed both sides, but in the end, the "piracy" debate was brought to the table by the industry and it is the industry that needs to take the first step in reconciliation with consumers. If you re-read what I wrote instead of knee-jerking in hopes of putting me down you can see that
1. I did not repeat anything that was said outside of a similar view to #2 on the list, because it is an actual valid point.
and
2. people do pirate 15 year old games- one of the biggest draws of custom firmware is emulators, not to mention the virtual console sales on wii
3. "lets try something else. how about we all pretend we are game developers." here is a better one- I have worked as a game developer, I am also an musician who releases on indie labels, I also work in cvil litigation and have worked extensively in b2b IP law in both the past and present as well as having seen the "piracy" internal documentation statistics not publicly released of a number of corporations that I cannot name due to NDA, so before you start talking out of your ass maybe you should learn a bit more about that of which you speak.
UMF Skibum's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:43
UMF Skibum
Wow, whole lot of justification going on.
ace of knaves's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:51
ace of knaves
Jim, are you ever surprised at the frightening number of people who take the "Ten Golden Rules" series completely seriously every. Single. Time. I mean fuck.

Anyway, brilliant installment, and I'm surprised one wasn't "Game developers don't respect the country I live in, therefore it's perfectly fine for me to not respect them and pirate their games. That'll teach 'em to value our money."
A Humble Mr Perfect's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:52
A Humble Mr Perfect
dont copy that floppy
Oni's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 12:55
Oni
I absolutely love reading the statements of the people who are trying to justify their theft. I thought people like this only existed in high school.

Moon logic aside, thanks for this, Jim. You made me smile today :)
scsitransfer's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:01
scsitransfer
First off, I support the destructoid hooker alliance, next. How in the world can we say that piracy is killing the indurstry? it get's larger year after year grossing more and more every year, the don't copy that floppy video made 16 years ago said that the companies will go out of business and instead, what happened? Neverwinter nights saw an updated release rather then putting game companies out of business. I mean the music industry is more pirated then the games industry and look at how poor all the artists are. They would have 2 pools when mtv visited their crib, but because of us lowly pirates who won't pay them for their work they can only afford one. Just as weird al states http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-grdpKVqg
Though, if you want to stick it to a big company, buy all the playstation 3s you can and never buy any games or blu-rays because sony loses money every sale.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:01
Tascar
Jim Sterling is my hero. He better be a playable character in Dynasty Warriors 7.
braulio09's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:11
braulio09
Peteru's bread shit made no sense

i, too, loved how you made the game buying trek so incredibly epic and difficult
SpencersGifts's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:11
SpencersGifts
Does it make it better if you pirate crap?

I mean most DS games that I have on my R4 SUCK, and not like o Ill play it only a couple times; they REALLY suck. Why should ANYONE waste 40 bucks because most companies pop out so many shit games it makes your eyes bleed?

Doesn't make it right, just a point

But hey i downloaded a shit hole version of the dark knight too, but thats because I wanted to re-watch certain scenes before he comes out on bluray.

Didn't stop me from seeing it 4 times in IMAX and once at a normal theater. Ive already spent over 60 bucks watching that movie.
Kia's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:17
Kia
"Things I'm missing:

The point
The humor"

This. Not only is this stupid satire but so many idiots think it's true they'll try using it as even more justification for their bullshit. Fail.
DynamicSheep's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:22
DynamicSheep
@article

I fucking died at the part about the sphinx.

@COBRA OB/GYN

Let me know when they finally get the torrent up for gas!

@Zersturer

'Nobody pirates a fucking 15 year old game'

It's 2008, so 15 years ago is 1993. You're telling me that noone downloads copies of NES, SNES and Genesis games? Because that's completely wrong!
Dr Milkdad's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:24
Dr Milkdad
Flawless list Jim. I've heard everyone of those from pirates who justify stealing games and they never admit that they are just cheap.

But I won't act like I've never done it, I did it a lot back in high school, but I always said when I can afford to buy all the games I wanted, I would. And I have.
Faust2814's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:27
Faust2814
Regardless of whether you find this funny (I did), I can't see why so many are taking it as literal. It's just strange how often satire get's taken seriously on the net, but whatever I guess.
Churchhills Dog's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:31
Churchhills Dog
well played my British friend.

can I copy/paste and call it my own?
Daxelman's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 13:46
Daxelman
I've never pirated games.

Music, oh hell yeah, and I plan to pay back all the 99 cents I owe Trent Reznor as soon as he makes all his awesome music not so byte heavy.

But games, no. I just never did it.

Then again, I start highschool tomorrow....
njsykora's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:02
njsykora
Well now, we certainly struck a few weak points there didn't we Jim?

F**k the R4.
Clockwork-Zombie's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:05
Clockwork-Zombie
#10 is applicable as I am a cheap fuck.
Also #7 as the nearest store that sells games is over an hour away.
Cheeburga's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:16
Cheeburga
I love this site.
Ogu's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:19
Ogu
I pirate games because of the cool eye patch that comes with most modchips/Piracy enabling devices.
Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:27
Usedtabe
Lol @ the "justification fags"

"Hurf DURF, it'z not steeeling!!"

@Sinow Wolf :

"I steal bread to feed my starving family is that a hangable offence to you?"

The reasons for your stealing do not make it any less of an offense. What about the person who poured thier money into the business to make that bread? They have to re-coup their losses to feed their family too. On top of that, your analogy is fail anyway. We're not talking necessities here. Your family isn't going to die if you don't fill their ipods full of stolen shit.
MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:33
MechaMonkey
Remember that time we used to just laugh at jokes, instead of analyzing them?

In other words, WHY SO SERIOUS?

Also, pirates:

Drakonikarma's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:34
Drakonikarma
Spot on as always Jim. Also, I won't pretend that I don't pirate games because I do - all the time. The reason? BECAUSE I CAN!
Syn's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:43
Syn
I pirate like a motherfucker, and I don't care. These rules made me laugh hard. Woop woop!

But that aside. According to the dictionary Theft and Piracy are two different things. Of course illegal. I know I'm a bastard for using the DICTIONARY and the DEFINITION OF WORDS to make my point, I mean who does these things! Someone already stated the definition of theft, but I'm guessing I'm the only one that reads all you guys' comments so here it is again.

Theft: the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

Piracy: the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy.

NOT THE SAME. Theft leaves on person without something and piracy just shares the wealth (which is actually awesome if we didn't live in a piece of shit capitalist society). I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying lets be certain of what we're calling things. People from Cuba are not Mexicans. People from Scotland are not Irish and ITS PRONOUNCED TOMATO NOT TO-MA-TO!

Moving on: people say that piracy is killing the gaming industry...they're only making record sales! As opposed to OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAND.....percent.

Movies...yeah they might be hurting a little. Batman still made a couple hundred million. I want a couple hundred million!

Music...we're killing the record companies more than the bands, they make their money off of merchandise and concerts anyway. Record companies are evil anyway...except the one that signed you. And the only good bands are the ones that don't do it specifically for money anyway.

Anime though is actually having some troubles, but that is mainly because people in everywhere except Japan are unable to pay for the anime they download even if they wanted to, let's fix that before we complain too much.

If you hadn't noticed, I totally support a TRULY communist society, I know how communism is supposed to be done and I know how good of a concept it is. I also know that people can't live without greed and the ability to screw each other over whenever we get the chance, so we traded down for capitalism instead.

It doesn't matter anyway because I'm a broke motherfucker and I'm going to keep doing what I do whether society decides it's right or wrong, because I decided that society is wrong hahahahahahaha :)
B-Radicate's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:45
B-Radicate
This article was pretty funny, not the best, but pretty damn spot on.

The comments from all the people defending game and music piracy as if they are justified in their ownership of something they didn't purchase because they read something on dictionary.com is fucking hilarious, though.

Piracy may have gained a new definition in the recent years but pirates of old raped pillaged and stole everything they had. That's why they were hunted and killed (or jailed); because what they did was ILLEGAL and it still is.

Get over yourselves, fuckers. You deserve to be locked up.
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:48
Wedge
ARRRRR PARROT!
Syn's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 14:50
Syn
@B-Radicate: You're telling me the precedent of law is more important than the fact that they were hurting people and taking things from them?

Are you a politician?
XerxesTWD's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 15:06
XerxesTWD
[[ Peteru at 08/24/2008 10:38

@Heretic

I steal ur chair. Now I have a chair, while you don't have anything to sit on.
= theft

I make a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a data you have assembled. It didn't affect your copy.
= piracy

Is it bad? That's another story.
Is it illegal - ofcourse. Though it is also illegal to label spiky skinned green vegetables "cucumbers" before measuring their curvature in UE. Personaly I don't think anyone will say it's immoral, or wrong to sell completely fine cucumbers that hadn't had their curvature measured...]]

That is one of the most blatantly dumbfuck arguments I've ever seen in the Destructoid comments section.

You(Peteru) go to work. You get paid. You deposit your check(or you get direct deposit, bypassing the bank trip).

I(XerxesTWD) log into your account using your stolen bank pin/password and take a portion of your bank account balance and put it in MY account.

You were not directly affected, the BANK was directly affected. Clearly, I am not responsible for that money just sitting in an account, waiting for me to take it.

The games you are stealing(newsflash, taking something for free that is offered in exchange for currency is stealing! OMFG) doesn't just affect the bottom line of the faceless corporate machine. Stealing those games affects the royalties and salaries of the video game creators on every level.

Get your ass back to school and stop trying to redefine words because you are too much of a pussy to man the fuck up and admit you are a thief.
sexycommando's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/24/2008 15:14
sexycommando
i recognize the satire, i just didn't find this one funny at all.
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