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I just want to point out that Zen Studios accused another dev of making dramatic statements for attention by sending out a dramatic press release to everyone that would read it. I know we have a Captain Obvious pic, but how about one for Captain Irony? It could be a flying ostrich in a Mr. Destructoid mask.
Looks like they're actually working it out now. There's mention of Super Meat Boy skin for Pinball FX
Hi Everyone, Mel here from Zen.
Just want to clear the air on the PlayStation comment. It was meant to provide some "well what about this" and context as to "why all the MSFT bashing when this is going on and no says anything." Look, I'll be the first to say that companies like Team Meat and Zen would have a hard time existing if it were not for Microsoft and Sony working hard to build digital marketplaces for us to publish on.
I am happy to see that it looks like we are getting the word out that you can have a good experience on XBLA.
Team Meat and Zen will meet for ice cream shortly.
If you have any other questions I am happy to answer them.
Just want to clear the air on the PlayStation comment. It was meant to provide some "well what about this" and context as to "why all the MSFT bashing when this is going on and no says anything." Look, I'll be the first to say that companies like Team Meat and Zen would have a hard time existing if it were not for Microsoft and Sony working hard to build digital marketplaces for us to publish on.
I am happy to see that it looks like we are getting the word out that you can have a good experience on XBLA.
Team Meat and Zen will meet for ice cream shortly.
If you have any other questions I am happy to answer them.
If you read the not-at-all subtle Zen press release, you'll notice that they were just as - if not more - immature than team SMB. They just did it without saying Fuck.
They fired the opening shots and did it in a ridiculously public manner.
They fired the opening shots and did it in a ridiculously public manner.
I haven't read the tweets but from what i have read and based on what people are saying about the tweets it seems like team meats issue is they feel super meat boy was put off to the side and nobody who owns an xbox knew about it.
I could be wrong but if that's the case then i have to call bullshit on team meat due to the fact i saw nothing but promotions for super meat boy on xbox live as well as microsofts website, the game was promoted and supported by xbox as far as i could see being a consumer, now that's not to say there wasn't something going on in the background between the two companies.
It really does make me wonder though what the big deal is that they come out now after the game was released a year ago to bitch about MSt, are they planning on making another game for xbox live that they didn't want to give any money to MS and MS said umm no dice you want to put a product up on our service then we have to make some money off it.
I could be wrong but if that's the case then i have to call bullshit on team meat due to the fact i saw nothing but promotions for super meat boy on xbox live as well as microsofts website, the game was promoted and supported by xbox as far as i could see being a consumer, now that's not to say there wasn't something going on in the background between the two companies.
It really does make me wonder though what the big deal is that they come out now after the game was released a year ago to bitch about MSt, are they planning on making another game for xbox live that they didn't want to give any money to MS and MS said umm no dice you want to put a product up on our service then we have to make some money off it.
Team Meat always made it clear, that their disappointment with Microsoft wasn't about being treated badly but about Microsoft making promises it didn't keep. Also they are hilarious.
I'd totally believe Team Meat are just trying to stir things up, though I have no doubt they had their problems with Microsoft (they wouldn't be the first to complain) they do seem like the type to play off the 'indie and poor' angle for fan sympathy. See also: Mojang.
...And one of those promises was heavy promotion. Which did happen, because SMB was the most promoted title in Game Feast. I can understand some of the other stuff, but their comments regarding lack of promotion are simply false. SMB was all over the dashboard, MS website, Game Feast promo images, had a launch sale, what more did they want??
SMB got more promotion from MS than most arcade titles. It was on my dashboard quite few times. In Spotlight and Inside Xbox. Looks like this is their of keeping it "Real" within the indie community. Because their lives are so hard.
I'd tend to side with Zen, who's comments mirror those of other XBLA devs I've read. I'd also be interested to know Zen's implied opinion on PSN and Sony.
Well I saw the tweets and I can say I support Team Meat in this case. Everybody get childish attitude when facing criticism. Team Meat is not offending anyone. Cristicism is not unprofessional when you are telling what you think a job, a work, a person or a company. If you aren't good enough on something you'll have to face criticism.
Well...Team Meat has effectively ensured I'll never purchase another one of their games. To react in such a juvenile and immature manner speaks a lot to their character.
I really don't know anything about either company but that was awesome. I also love team meat for being "straight up fuck you". I would have done the same thing even if it was business related if another company said I was just talking bullshit.
I guess SMB sales have dropped, because Team Meat wasn't as down on Microsoft when they were getting promoted and making money.
Or maybe back then they were just too busy saying how much of a devil Nintendo was, because Nintendo refused to make an exception to the WiiWare file size limit that Team Meat had completely ignored throughout their development process.
Or maybe back then they were just too busy saying how much of a devil Nintendo was, because Nintendo refused to make an exception to the WiiWare file size limit that Team Meat had completely ignored throughout their development process.
One hit game and then BOOM. I like SMB but I don't like how they handled the whole Wiiware issue. They also dissed Sony for passing on them which is really childish and now they're biting the hand that feeds them. You may make great games but that doesn't excuse you for being an asshole.
I think it just depends on who you are and what you're making as to how microsoft treats you. Maybe they just don't like the zillions of 2d platformers that xbox live already has and keeps getting in droves?
in any case... i wouldn't be surprised if this was just a case of team meat not realizing that microsoft is a big company and therefore expects a higher level of quality and quickness when it comes to your work if you're going to be working directly with them. All the other devs know it, and if you don't like it, go develop for PC, you'll probably have more success there because the quirky, retro-gaming, 2D nostalgia market is booming there.
in any case... i wouldn't be surprised if this was just a case of team meat not realizing that microsoft is a big company and therefore expects a higher level of quality and quickness when it comes to your work if you're going to be working directly with them. All the other devs know it, and if you don't like it, go develop for PC, you'll probably have more success there because the quirky, retro-gaming, 2D nostalgia market is booming there.
Team meat seem to be honest to a fault. Its honestly quite refreshing to see people not worried about keeping a façade up for a good business relationship. But I can't see it serving them too well. Also, whats with the shot at sony from the zen guys?
1st. I side with team meat
2nd. I read the tweets, I do not recall a statement about not getting enough promotion, quit making shit up
3rd. Yes that first comment is extremely childish but they only get better after that, try not to make as many snap judgements
4th. Zen is not the bad guy either, it's all friendly now so there is no more reason to toss any hate in either direction
2nd. I read the tweets, I do not recall a statement about not getting enough promotion, quit making shit up
3rd. Yes that first comment is extremely childish but they only get better after that, try not to make as many snap judgements
4th. Zen is not the bad guy either, it's all friendly now so there is no more reason to toss any hate in either direction
I see alot of people slagging off Team Meat without bothering to inform themselves of the subject matter whatsoever. It takes more than looking at the tweet log to work out what they're upset about, and Jim's linked the Gamasutra article which explains it all.
I bet 99% of the responses here didn't bother reading that (it's hefty reading for some, at 4 pages, and sans a TL;DR) but it was pretty appalling what they were put through. I'm surprised one (if not both) of these guys even made it through without long-term anxiety or major depression, they essentially were dragged over the coals, slaving away locking themselves inside for 3 months...all for nothing, as promises weren't kept on Microsoft's part at all.
That's disgraceful treatment.
I bet 99% of the responses here didn't bother reading that (it's hefty reading for some, at 4 pages, and sans a TL;DR) but it was pretty appalling what they were put through. I'm surprised one (if not both) of these guys even made it through without long-term anxiety or major depression, they essentially were dragged over the coals, slaving away locking themselves inside for 3 months...all for nothing, as promises weren't kept on Microsoft's part at all.
That's disgraceful treatment.
Here's what I want to know: Did Team Meat really "make millions"?
If so, then there's really no reason to complain. Then again, after reading the original article it doesn't even seem like they're really that upset. Seems like they've moved on and gotten over it.
That's the video game industry for you.
If so, then there's really no reason to complain. Then again, after reading the original article it doesn't even seem like they're really that upset. Seems like they've moved on and gotten over it.
That's the video game industry for you.
With such a large company, it's entirely possible both parties are right. My understanding is that with large XBLA releases developers are assigned a MS liaison. If that guy happens to be a dick, it could definitely sour the experience.
EdmundMcMillen Edmund McMillen
ugh, highly regret my knee-jerk response to the Zen studios sending outa mass mail to attempt to bash us and praise MS... i just woke up
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Btw, alot of you are forgetting the pretty awesome "Gish" or the fact that Edmund McMillen did art for Braid
ugh, highly regret my knee-jerk response to the Zen studios sending outa mass mail to attempt to bash us and praise MS... i just woke up
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Btw, alot of you are forgetting the pretty awesome "Gish" or the fact that Edmund McMillen did art for Braid
From what I read at Joystiq Team Meat were angry because they were "led to believe" that if they finished their game in time of the promotion it would sell better. Doesn't sound like anyone was twisting their arm or forcing them to work unhealthy hours, but they did it to make more money and get the extra promotion. I can understand them being bummed it took a few extra hours for Meatboy to be uploaded the first day of the promotion, but didn't they outsell Comic Jumper and Hydrophobia the next day anyways?
These dudes write about how their fantasy of being developers was all wrong. Did they think it'd be eating Doritos and drinking Mt. Dew between game sessions from their favorite couch? Every project has a 'crunch time' especially when it's just two people.
Hand these dudes a box of tissues, on second thought they could just use all of the money they made from their evil boss Microsoft.
These dudes write about how their fantasy of being developers was all wrong. Did they think it'd be eating Doritos and drinking Mt. Dew between game sessions from their favorite couch? Every project has a 'crunch time' especially when it's just two people.
Hand these dudes a box of tissues, on second thought they could just use all of the money they made from their evil boss Microsoft.
I had a dream once, it was a dream that the executives behind the games industry grew up and conducted themselves like professionals.
Then I woke up.
Then I was sad.
Then I woke up.
Then I was sad.
Zen Studios all the way. Team Meat sounds like a bunch of whiny 14 year olds that are pissed because their moms accidentally got mustard on their big macs.
And it's hard to say that Zen is a MS puppet when they have the best title on XBL *and* PSN.
And it's hard to say that Zen is a MS puppet when they have the best title on XBL *and* PSN.
I found Super Meat Boy to be a nicely polished but boring game.
I can find better indie games for a fraction of the cost.
I can find better indie games for a fraction of the cost.
It's slightly confusing as Team Meat, at least from the interviews I've read/heard, are usually very intelligent and classy people. Maybe Zen statements came to Team Meat on a bad day?
I absolutely love SMB, but I think they let the emotional stress they subjected themselves to overshadow the fact that there are plenty of other developers who also work themselves to the bone over their games, maybe more so, and that saying the things they did makes them sound selfish and maybe slightly pretentious.
(I still love em' though.)
I absolutely love SMB, but I think they let the emotional stress they subjected themselves to overshadow the fact that there are plenty of other developers who also work themselves to the bone over their games, maybe more so, and that saying the things they did makes them sound selfish and maybe slightly pretentious.
(I still love em' though.)
I'm Pro-Meat in this. Immature, sure, but Zen didn't need to shoot down Meat to 'prove a point'.
Immaturity vs. Dickery. FIGHT.
Immaturity vs. Dickery. FIGHT.
Most importantly, on at least one occasion I think we're all guilty of posting something on the internet impulsively out of emotion without thinking it through first. :)
I had been going back and forth with Team Meat over it.
If you read the initial statements by them, they legitimately blame Microsoft for their own financial problems.
For those only believing what you read here, MS did NOT put a crunch time on them and gave them the option to launch after the Game Feast promo. They couldn't do it money-wise, so put THEMSELVES through a crunch period to make it. MS didn't think the game was worth 1200msp ($15) and had them launch at $10.
Now you can say what you will, but they would NOT have had success at $15, and MS probably saved their ass on that one. Read all accounts before thinking what you're seeing is right. They legit think placing blame on MS is allowed when it was their own shortcomings that put them in a rough period. Fuck that.
If you read the initial statements by them, they legitimately blame Microsoft for their own financial problems.
For those only believing what you read here, MS did NOT put a crunch time on them and gave them the option to launch after the Game Feast promo. They couldn't do it money-wise, so put THEMSELVES through a crunch period to make it. MS didn't think the game was worth 1200msp ($15) and had them launch at $10.
Now you can say what you will, but they would NOT have had success at $15, and MS probably saved their ass on that one. Read all accounts before thinking what you're seeing is right. They legit think placing blame on MS is allowed when it was their own shortcomings that put them in a rough period. Fuck that.
I have no idea why Zen felt the need to publically attack Team Meat the way they did. It's pretty damn scathing if you read between the lines.
I'm trying to figure out why psn was mentioned by zen. Smb wasn't developed for psn because apparently sony showed no interest, and they came out and said that. Red herring, methinks.
Really? They sent out a fucking press release calling Team Meat's honesty, integrity, and motives into question...why? Not only do they come off looking like MS ass-kissers, they look like fucking jerks.
I don't care that they patched it up now, it simply was not Zen's place to comment on Team Meat's situation. Zen made themselves look pretty douchey. "Not to brag, but..." *proceeds to brag*....ugh, come on.
I just don't understand why they would feel the need to inject themselves into this. I think almost anyone would say, "mind your own fucking business" too.
Maybe Team Meat used crude language....but so-the-fuck-what?! Why are so many destructoid users suddenly allergic to a little salty language?
Bottom line: Zen leveled the ultimate insult -- out of nowhere -- by basically calling Team Meat millionaire-liars posing as poor devs. Why would anyone take their side in this?
I don't care that they patched it up now, it simply was not Zen's place to comment on Team Meat's situation. Zen made themselves look pretty douchey. "Not to brag, but..." *proceeds to brag*....ugh, come on.
I just don't understand why they would feel the need to inject themselves into this. I think almost anyone would say, "mind your own fucking business" too.
Maybe Team Meat used crude language....but so-the-fuck-what?! Why are so many destructoid users suddenly allergic to a little salty language?
Bottom line: Zen leveled the ultimate insult -- out of nowhere -- by basically calling Team Meat millionaire-liars posing as poor devs. Why would anyone take their side in this?
Shame, I've got the trial of FX2 since I just got a functional 360 back and was planning to buy Pinball FX 2 when I got paid, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Hey, Neil @ Zen here. Apologies to @SuperMeatBoy for yesterday's events. We were out of line to send that critical email to gaming press.
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Both parties have apologized now. Let the spooning commence.
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Both parties have apologized now. Let the spooning commence.
Team Meat should STFU IMO, and I'm glad Zen Studios put them in their place. It's complete their fault that their developer got sick and neglected health insurance. And it's not MS's fault that Super Meat Boy didn't sell as expected on the XBLA, despite the heavy advertising and promotion. Team Meat probably figured that it's cool to blame all their issues on MS, knowing that haters would jump on the bandwagon.
ITT: We draw rash conclusions about the personalities and devious motivations of people we don't know from comments based on experiences we weren't involved in, made for reasons we know nothing about.
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