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While I agree with most of what he is saying, I do think that there is still potential in the free-to-play model of gaming.
it almost seems like the publishers are in more control of the games than the actual developers/creators are.
if i was a lead developer for a game i envisioned and a publisher constantly wanted me to ruin or change or cut content to sell back on my game so they can rake in more money, i would tell them to fuck off, im making MY game. not YOUR game.
i honestly think publishers are to blame for the vast majority of todays gaming problems. mmos. f2p. DLC. cut content. on dic items sold later, EA's ever growing "buy now to unlock content you can normally get for free" shit needs to stop ASAP.
hey dtoid. why not start a kickstarter project to become one of the best and most respected publishers of todays video games.
if i was a lead developer for a game i envisioned and a publisher constantly wanted me to ruin or change or cut content to sell back on my game so they can rake in more money, i would tell them to fuck off, im making MY game. not YOUR game.
i honestly think publishers are to blame for the vast majority of todays gaming problems. mmos. f2p. DLC. cut content. on dic items sold later, EA's ever growing "buy now to unlock content you can normally get for free" shit needs to stop ASAP.
hey dtoid. why not start a kickstarter project to become one of the best and most respected publishers of todays video games.
Free2Play is fine as long as you can play and do everything in it for free and paying is an extra feature. Like in Ghost Recon: Online, that game is awesome.
While I agree with him, there's so much other shit that he says that I think is stupid. Not to mention his laziness for gamepad support in Binding of Isaac. It's the only reason I haven't sat down and really played that game. Let's release SMB, which has full gamepad support, and not include gamepad support in Binding of Isaac and just tell people to use Joy2key. Except for whatever fucking reason, Joy2key refuses to register inputs from my PS3 controller.
I will agree with this statement. Even as awesome as Tribes is, I would still rather just pay $50-$60 and get everything instead of buying coins or experience to get any of the decent upgrades, instead of the shitty freemium model. I don't mind paying, I just hate being nickled and dimed in the name of "free."
When these guys have something to say, I really like what they have to say. With free games, you get what you pay for. You are getting a bland experience whose only merit is that it's free.
Free-to-play in games, I think, is a way to systematize piracy in gaming. As much as everybody rails against it, it has subtle benefits, and nearly all massively popular and profitable games have been heavily pirated, with a possible exception being World of Warcraft.
But unless you are League of Legends, there are better ways than free to play. The old system of making it kind of hard to pirate, but not that hard, and if do by you are rewarded with a fresh disk and box art--video games grew up and thrived under those conditions. League of Legends thrives because it parallels the old system, where the difference between a pirated and purchased game is mainly cosmetic.
Free-to-play in games, I think, is a way to systematize piracy in gaming. As much as everybody rails against it, it has subtle benefits, and nearly all massively popular and profitable games have been heavily pirated, with a possible exception being World of Warcraft.
But unless you are League of Legends, there are better ways than free to play. The old system of making it kind of hard to pirate, but not that hard, and if do by you are rewarded with a fresh disk and box art--video games grew up and thrived under those conditions. League of Legends thrives because it parallels the old system, where the difference between a pirated and purchased game is mainly cosmetic.
Provided the developers make sure that the unlockables (paid and free) and the starting items are balanced, then I've got no problem. TF2 is a prime example. Whether or not you agree that they've added too much extra equipment over the years, the devs have at least tried to keep everything balanced.
Most of the mobile games that use this method are bad games anyway. I don't think he's talking about PC games like Tribes and TF2, because they don't really work like that.
@Squishy3
Use MotionJoy Gamepad Tool. It's free and you can emulate both keystrokes and Xinput on PS3 Controllers. I think Binding of Isaac is better suited for a keyboard though in my opinion.
Use MotionJoy Gamepad Tool. It's free and you can emulate both keystrokes and Xinput on PS3 Controllers. I think Binding of Isaac is better suited for a keyboard though in my opinion.
As much as we all hate Freemium games, they're probably not going to disappear for a long time. I would still like to see some more mobile games that only ask you to pay once.
@Janklogs
/V/irgin?
@Janklogs
/V/irgin?
While there are a few good examples of free-to-play games (Team Fortress 2, anybody?), I think I agree with his general sentiment. Some of the free-to-play things I've seen on mobile or on Facebook are obnoxious in how they do things.
@Squishy3
First off - can't see what does the lack of controller support in BoI have to do with the article at hand.
Secondly - BoI is coded in Flash, which has no ability to integrate controllers as far as I know (unless it's Joy2Key). In any rate - you should really be filing complaints to the programmer (a.k.a. Mr. Himsl) and not the designer.
First off - can't see what does the lack of controller support in BoI have to do with the article at hand.
Secondly - BoI is coded in Flash, which has no ability to integrate controllers as far as I know (unless it's Joy2Key). In any rate - you should really be filing complaints to the programmer (a.k.a. Mr. Himsl) and not the designer.
The freemium model is still evolving and there is no doubt that it seems to work well for some games and not for others.
They shouldn't all be swept under the same rug.
They shouldn't all be swept under the same rug.
Mobile space and social gaming is what Team Meat seem to be directing their statements too, and they are right.
The problem is.
1. The majority of consumers in those spaces, don't know what a good game is, don't know what valid pricing is, can't form a resistant due to lack of knowledge. This is why PC F2P is so much better because the gamers on that platform are WAY more knowledgeable and aware then mobile/social gamers. And since companies only care about money and not the well being of their consumers, they will do as much as they can to take advantage of the situation.
2. There's no regulation on the practice of free to play games to protect consumers, especially kids who already have trouble understanding the concept of money/value, but companies that literally feed on the unknowledgeable.
Yeah, I get it, some of you hate more government, but as long as companies exist, we'll need government to protect us, because WE are the government, and without government, these companies would literally kill to make money, and some already do.
The problem is.
1. The majority of consumers in those spaces, don't know what a good game is, don't know what valid pricing is, can't form a resistant due to lack of knowledge. This is why PC F2P is so much better because the gamers on that platform are WAY more knowledgeable and aware then mobile/social gamers. And since companies only care about money and not the well being of their consumers, they will do as much as they can to take advantage of the situation.
2. There's no regulation on the practice of free to play games to protect consumers, especially kids who already have trouble understanding the concept of money/value, but companies that literally feed on the unknowledgeable.
Yeah, I get it, some of you hate more government, but as long as companies exist, we'll need government to protect us, because WE are the government, and without government, these companies would literally kill to make money, and some already do.
has bandage girl always had tits? i feel like i missed that little fact until just now.
gotta agree tho, "free to play" is obviously a marketing scheme meant to grab more from your wallet when done improperly (or properly, depending on what side of the table you are sitting at).
as others have mentioned tf2 does the f2p model the best, what with the original weapons technically superior to all the extras and the fact that you still get said extra items through regular playthroughs just like everyone else.
gotta agree tho, "free to play" is obviously a marketing scheme meant to grab more from your wallet when done improperly (or properly, depending on what side of the table you are sitting at).
as others have mentioned tf2 does the f2p model the best, what with the original weapons technically superior to all the extras and the fact that you still get said extra items through regular playthroughs just like everyone else.
@fetusmilk;i-get-what-youre-saying..but-the-moment-youd-tell-a-publisher-to-fuck-off,they-would,and-take-you-and-your-teams-paychecks-with-them...publishers-have-too-much-control,and-thier-goal-is-profit..wheras-devs-goal-is-a-great-game-in-hopes-that-profit-follows
Freemium can be done right. It's not something intrinsically wrong with the model itself, just how some people use it.
I know I appreciate using free software on my computer all the time.
I know I appreciate using free software on my computer all the time.
As far as iOS games go, I completely agree. There are certain free-to-play games that I thoroughly enjoy on iOS, but they make it so goddamn impossible to level your shit up unless you spend money. And while I have no problem spending money to play a game I enjoy, they are asking for outrageous amounts.
For example: One of my favorite iOS games is 'Blood and Glory.' There is a lot of awesome gear in that game, but you would have to play through the tournaments hundreds, maybe thousands of times to get the best of it for free. On the other hand, you can pay $20 for enough of the two different in-game currencies to get some mid-range gear. I imagine you could pay upwards of $100 to get at least some of the best stuff in the game. To me, this is bullshit. I'd much rather pay $10 for a game with a fair leveling system that allows me to earn all the best shit in a reasonable/non-tedious way. But no. It's free-to-play, the most expensive pay model on the market.
For example: One of my favorite iOS games is 'Blood and Glory.' There is a lot of awesome gear in that game, but you would have to play through the tournaments hundreds, maybe thousands of times to get the best of it for free. On the other hand, you can pay $20 for enough of the two different in-game currencies to get some mid-range gear. I imagine you could pay upwards of $100 to get at least some of the best stuff in the game. To me, this is bullshit. I'd much rather pay $10 for a game with a fair leveling system that allows me to earn all the best shit in a reasonable/non-tedious way. But no. It's free-to-play, the most expensive pay model on the market.
@Elsa I completely agree. I have always thought of freemium and free-to-play as separate entities. Free-to-play covering your Tribes: Ascends and Team Fortress 2s. Freemium, on the other hand, attributing to the glorified video slot machines on Facebook and the devices of children. A clear distinction Mr. McMullen would like to distance himself from.
@Charlietime
Agreed on those two. Ascend and LoL both give you reasonable amounts of XP and currency to gradually buy things as you go, while asking for reasonable amounts of money if you want to hurry things along. And there is plenty incentive to spend money in both games.
Agreed on those two. Ascend and LoL both give you reasonable amounts of XP and currency to gradually buy things as you go, while asking for reasonable amounts of money if you want to hurry things along. And there is plenty incentive to spend money in both games.
The focus of his ranting is definitely towards the mobile platform, so using Tribes and Blacklight as good examples of freemium don't work. The free games that do make money are generally annoying with the ads and have a pay version for sale as well and I always go for that. I bought a fancy device; I may as well pay a few bucks to also be able to use it.
Freemiums usually come with a catch. I'm not a fan either. But iOS games are a problem in this way. There's too much junk in the app store, but there are also some gems in there too. These guy need a better game than SMB. It's...fine...but there are a million cheap or free games that are just as good.
I don't really like F2P games. It sounds great on paper. But the more I try them the more I realise it. At best its a good game in which you are constantly goaded into buying things. It's just a different atmosphere. I honestly don't mind paying the sticker price and getting all the games' content if I really like the game. Then again, even that doesn't happen these days with DLC, specific pre-order bonuses and online passes. At worst though, F2P stuff just seems manipulative and shady, like with those randomised "pay to open this mystery box" set ups some of them have going. It's hard to feel proud to be playing a game with that sort of thing associated with it.
Compared to free to play, retail is a dream, and really the only way the consumer gets anything anymore
Jim,
I read the Team Meat post earlier this morning and I feel like your headline is pretty misleading. It's not about hating free-to-play, rather specifically the traditionally scummy mobile gaming model.
I read the Team Meat post earlier this morning and I feel like your headline is pretty misleading. It's not about hating free-to-play, rather specifically the traditionally scummy mobile gaming model.
This is more a Pay-to-Win thing. SO far TF2 and Tribes are so far the best thingie. No regrets on all the money spent on TF2 and been enjoying Ascend without paying a single penny.
F2P games are both a blessing and a bane. There are some games I feel have always meant to operate in this sort of model, but then there are many games that I do not want touching this sort of business plan.
As others have said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with F2P models, it is when it is shoehorned into purely to make money. Or even worse, P2W (Pay-to-win) models. Want to beat others even better? Want to be able to beat that boss? Well cough up the dosh and we will make it possible.
TF2 does represent the cream of the crop in terms of F2P gaming. Nothing requires you purchase additional items and most items can be earn simply by playing the game. I mean sure, there are unusual items and strange items, but you get NO benefit having them over someone who has regular items. You pay out of respect, not out of requirement.
When all is said and done, I still prefer full-bodied (mmmhmmm bodied...) experiences. Which many F2P games simply do NOT offer, but then again, some retail games still seem to exclude.
As others have said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with F2P models, it is when it is shoehorned into purely to make money. Or even worse, P2W (Pay-to-win) models. Want to beat others even better? Want to be able to beat that boss? Well cough up the dosh and we will make it possible.
TF2 does represent the cream of the crop in terms of F2P gaming. Nothing requires you purchase additional items and most items can be earn simply by playing the game. I mean sure, there are unusual items and strange items, but you get NO benefit having them over someone who has regular items. You pay out of respect, not out of requirement.
When all is said and done, I still prefer full-bodied (mmmhmmm bodied...) experiences. Which many F2P games simply do NOT offer, but then again, some retail games still seem to exclude.
F2P can be great. Hybrid F2P models, like the one ArenaNet is implementing for Guild Wars 2, can be really great.
But I think everyone agrees pay-to-win is terrible (or games that "limit" how much you can pay behind a gated resource you have to pay for, like Dragon Age Legends on Facebook).
Not only are those games engineered to take advantage of the human psyche, but they're specifically designed to make you want to constantly shell out cash: so much so that you're paying more than a $15 subscription fee monthly without even knowing it.
But I think everyone agrees pay-to-win is terrible (or games that "limit" how much you can pay behind a gated resource you have to pay for, like Dragon Age Legends on Facebook).
Not only are those games engineered to take advantage of the human psyche, but they're specifically designed to make you want to constantly shell out cash: so much so that you're paying more than a $15 subscription fee monthly without even knowing it.
Edmund McMillan hardly has a foot to stand on when it comes to talking about "actual game design" when so many of the things he hates use more elements of game design than he ever has.
That said, blatantly pay 2 win shit is shit, freemium can be done well.
That said, blatantly pay 2 win shit is shit, freemium can be done well.
Considering Zynga is earning billions of bucks, with the majority if it coming from 1% of their users, the F2P sphere is vastly more attractive to devs that are being stonewalled by 'psychotic' publishers.
The only games that do it right are TF2, Tribes, LoL. and it sounds like that Retribution. Considering most games aren't like those, a retail, all-in-the-box method is definitely vastly superior. When more games are implemented well, my first reaction might not be to hate the model.
The only games that do it right are TF2, Tribes, LoL. and it sounds like that Retribution. Considering most games aren't like those, a retail, all-in-the-box method is definitely vastly superior. When more games are implemented well, my first reaction might not be to hate the model.
wait a min super meatboys goin IOS? finally I can play the damn game. I hope its a great port like Sonic CD.
There is potential in free to play, and there are some games doing it right, but most are shit and he's right.
Enjoy Team Fortress 2 as a Free 2 Play game. It works for me. Some games abuse the model, others don't. The end.
Because Ed McMillen knows all about respecting customers...when he's not taking the easy way out in his games, blaming bugs on the player, or making angry rant videos because he can't take criticism.
Every times the guys from Team Meat say something, I agree. I'm blown away by how similar their views of the gaming industry are compared to my own.
Topic title is misleading. He's talking about the free-2-play-pay-2-win model that is prevalent in mobile games, not free-2-play games in general.
I understand his sentiment, although I think there are games that do it well like LoL (I think?) and Tribes Ascend.
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