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I guess one could see this in your article, however you only actually mention Sony at the very end of your post. Maybe you needed to be a little more clear as to who you feel has betrayed you. Is it thatgamecompany, who it seems throughout most of the article made the game that you didn't want to be a game, or Sony for telling you that's what it was.
I think some people are getting way too fucking butthurt over some criticisms that aren't even denouncing the game. What the fuck is up with all these babies on dToid now?
Topher, you really should write more features. This was awesome.
When I first came upon that level (the fifth one, I think) and then beat it, I was like, "Fuck that place, I fucking hated it and never want to go back there." But after playing the final level and finishing the game, I realized that the dark level -- while being very, very "gamey" -- existed for a reason: to advance the story. I think the point of it was to instill the exact feelings I felt -- fear and loathing -- so the transition to the next level, where you're healing the world and bringing life back into it, would be infinitely more effective.
But I can totally see why you're pissed at Sony for advertising Flower as "Zen gaming."
When I first came upon that level (the fifth one, I think) and then beat it, I was like, "Fuck that place, I fucking hated it and never want to go back there." But after playing the final level and finishing the game, I realized that the dark level -- while being very, very "gamey" -- existed for a reason: to advance the story. I think the point of it was to instill the exact feelings I felt -- fear and loathing -- so the transition to the next level, where you're healing the world and bringing life back into it, would be infinitely more effective.
But I can totally see why you're pissed at Sony for advertising Flower as "Zen gaming."
I just finished Flower. It seemed to me to be little more than a $10 tech demo. It was neither interesting nor relaxing for me.
Topher, I really liked that last level, I though it was fun to "attack" those dead heaps of metal.... I know its not the same as the first levels. The "calm" levels are still there, and while the last level isn't what you expected, I dont think it should taint the experience too much. While it might have advertised itself as a non tradtional game, and broke away from that at the last second, I still think its a great game, and look forward to collecting trophies and going back through the various levels just having fun.
i doubt im the only person that sees a story within the conflict of nature and industrialism, im not the type of person that has to have everything spelled out to them either
that level was the best part of the game serving as a wake up call
that level was the best part of the game serving as a wake up call
@Wedge:
They came to replace the babies that "left" in a big huff when Workman and Reaprar got banned.
OH SNAP.
@Topher:
<3
They came to replace the babies that "left" in a big huff when Workman and Reaprar got banned.
OH SNAP.
@Topher:
<3
Well written Topher. I really like the way you put it at the end.
And how was there any spoilers? I guess finding out what level ruins the game counts as a spoiler now?
And how was there any spoilers? I guess finding out what level ruins the game counts as a spoiler now?
I like features by Topher. Please write more!
I'm not reading it until I get the game though. Sorry...
I'm not reading it until I get the game though. Sorry...
just beat bioshock, great game.
so i see this is the topic huh? well, i'm not mad at anyone and just try give my perspective on something, just because i may not agree with someone on a touchy subject doesn't mean i hate them, and i don't hurl insults (too often.) i said what i felt when i played flower and it all made perfect sense to me in the end. it is way too short though and i would love to see a 4th of july night level with massive fireworks going off.
so i see this is the topic huh? well, i'm not mad at anyone and just try give my perspective on something, just because i may not agree with someone on a touchy subject doesn't mean i hate them, and i don't hurl insults (too often.) i said what i felt when i played flower and it all made perfect sense to me in the end. it is way too short though and i would love to see a 4th of july night level with massive fireworks going off.
Wow, apart from the apparent spoilerige, that was a brilliant read sir Topher. And clearly any spoilers aren`t going to impact anyones enjoyment of the game.
The game sounds like something that needs refining - clearly they felt they couldn`t stick to the initial calm of the early parts of the game for fear of gamers crying 'this is isn`t like a game at all' or the inevitable tech demo comparisons. But I really think this kind of game needs to evolve and get more refined WITHOUT people expecting it get any more challenging or gamey. If a developer put all their efforts into extrapolating flowers earlier levels out into a more extended relaxation experience, that would be awesome. And good for the soul - I personally think that engaging yourself in this kind of 'game' could be very healthy, especially for those who spend extended amounts of time in stress inducing, blood splattered, cries-of-pain ridden FPS`s!
Excellent article dude.
The game sounds like something that needs refining - clearly they felt they couldn`t stick to the initial calm of the early parts of the game for fear of gamers crying 'this is isn`t like a game at all' or the inevitable tech demo comparisons. But I really think this kind of game needs to evolve and get more refined WITHOUT people expecting it get any more challenging or gamey. If a developer put all their efforts into extrapolating flowers earlier levels out into a more extended relaxation experience, that would be awesome. And good for the soul - I personally think that engaging yourself in this kind of 'game' could be very healthy, especially for those who spend extended amounts of time in stress inducing, blood splattered, cries-of-pain ridden FPS`s!
Excellent article dude.
Possible spoilers to follow:
I can see where you're coming from Topher and I had a similar experience the first time I came up to the whole "electricity" thing. Sure it seemed tedious and unnecessary but I thought it was a little change of pace and setting that make the previous levels stand out all that much more. Maybe its what I thought the game was getting at that made me hang with it.
In the previous level it looked like the power lines were rooted in the ground essentially taking energy from the earth. Which is where we get ours really. And it was your task to remove or fix those downed lines, which added beauty to the area, and when you got the the city level rebuild it. It was a beautiful thought. The land we rely on for our energy, we pollute, and then use it again to clean it up. Basically the land keeps giving and giving to us and getting nothing in return. To me it showed what our world could look like if we could take care of it.
I can see where you're coming from Topher and I had a similar experience the first time I came up to the whole "electricity" thing. Sure it seemed tedious and unnecessary but I thought it was a little change of pace and setting that make the previous levels stand out all that much more. Maybe its what I thought the game was getting at that made me hang with it.
In the previous level it looked like the power lines were rooted in the ground essentially taking energy from the earth. Which is where we get ours really. And it was your task to remove or fix those downed lines, which added beauty to the area, and when you got the the city level rebuild it. It was a beautiful thought. The land we rely on for our energy, we pollute, and then use it again to clean it up. Basically the land keeps giving and giving to us and getting nothing in return. To me it showed what our world could look like if we could take care of it.
Damn Topher, that's a bit harsh, no? I can see your point, but I guess I just don't agree with the sentiments. Ya, I shouted "WTF" at the screen the first time I too got shocked with electricity. But then I just chucked and said, whatever, "I'm better than that," and bobbed and weaved out of the way.
To me it was like the first time I actually "died" in Flow. I got bounced back a screen and it felt like... "WTF? Ohhhhh! So thaaaats what can happen if I don't pay attention. Weeelll, Fuck. Fine then! Lets do it again!"
Didn't detract from the game in anyway, it just corrected my assumptions put on the game.
To me it was like the first time I actually "died" in Flow. I got bounced back a screen and it felt like... "WTF? Ohhhhh! So thaaaats what can happen if I don't pay attention. Weeelll, Fuck. Fine then! Lets do it again!"
Didn't detract from the game in anyway, it just corrected my assumptions put on the game.
Also, I can't spell chuckle with a letter "D" at the end.
That shit is very difficult. Don't judge me.
That shit is very difficult. Don't judge me.
The worst thing about games hyped up as art is that they have some arty bullshit explanation lined up to make every criticism seem like it came from some ignoramus who couldn't understand the vision of the game.
Even if Zen wasn't used by the developers, apparently they specifically said it wasn't zen, Sony certainly got the word out, and I'm sure that several flOwer supporters on this site used zen excessively when forming comments about how eagerly they anticipate the game.
I think people are looking at this the wrong way. If games vs. art is the way artistic games are judged or made, they will undoubted fail on one or the other, and correspondingly fail at creating an artistic game. So long as gameplay is an obstacle to your artistic vision, you are not creating an artistic game. You might as well just make a CG movie.
This game seems to have incredibly conventional gameplay with a very lovely setting. It sounds like art with a game duct-taped to it, and has hardly captured the gaming medium's artistic value. Having conventional gameplay isn't a deal breaker either, look at Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Thing is they both had good gameplay and not a bare bones obligatory collect-a-thon. Even games that are struck down in reviews for being collect-a-thons often don't require you to collect everything to advance (see Banjo Kazooie). I'm sure flOwer's exceptional atmosphere can accommodate it's at times sketchy gameplay, though from what I read here giving the game credit for any semblance of a story is a mistake. The evil metal invades the land etc. doesn't sound like anything resembling a story that anyone should be proud of. The atmosphere can be an achievement on its own, reading in a poor story does little to help things.
Even if Zen wasn't used by the developers, apparently they specifically said it wasn't zen, Sony certainly got the word out, and I'm sure that several flOwer supporters on this site used zen excessively when forming comments about how eagerly they anticipate the game.
I think people are looking at this the wrong way. If games vs. art is the way artistic games are judged or made, they will undoubted fail on one or the other, and correspondingly fail at creating an artistic game. So long as gameplay is an obstacle to your artistic vision, you are not creating an artistic game. You might as well just make a CG movie.
This game seems to have incredibly conventional gameplay with a very lovely setting. It sounds like art with a game duct-taped to it, and has hardly captured the gaming medium's artistic value. Having conventional gameplay isn't a deal breaker either, look at Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Thing is they both had good gameplay and not a bare bones obligatory collect-a-thon. Even games that are struck down in reviews for being collect-a-thons often don't require you to collect everything to advance (see Banjo Kazooie). I'm sure flOwer's exceptional atmosphere can accommodate it's at times sketchy gameplay, though from what I read here giving the game credit for any semblance of a story is a mistake. The evil metal invades the land etc. doesn't sound like anything resembling a story that anyone should be proud of. The atmosphere can be an achievement on its own, reading in a poor story does little to help things.
@people complaining about spoilers
The game doesn't even have a plot - lighten up
@topher
I agree mostly - this "damage" mechanic seemss out of place, but it set up the progression to the last level where you somehow gain the power to destroy those towers. Without the shock, there would be no satisfaction in gaining the ability to destroy them.
The game doesn't even have a plot - lighten up
@topher
I agree mostly - this "damage" mechanic seemss out of place, but it set up the progression to the last level where you somehow gain the power to destroy those towers. Without the shock, there would be no satisfaction in gaining the ability to destroy them.
Interesting read topher, very well put. I agree that you should write more, I enjoy your words. If it's still ok to do so at this website, I'd like to disagree, though.
I think that if the game hadn't been set up as a zen game, the level in question wouldn't have had as much impact on me. If we are talking in terms of zen and experiences and inner metamorphosis and all that kind of deep stuff, then the intent of the game, and the level in question, should be viewed with that in mind.
When I think zen, I think about going into that mode of automatism in my brain where I am in the moment, and having that state of mind bring me to a realization. I don't study the stuff, so I don't know how accurate that is, but that's the mindset I had. I'd have to say that the first moment of shock, when I thought I was playing a game that wouldn't include such things, was a pretty memorable moment and it definitely snapped me into reality and got my attention. Not to mention how it set things up for the last level.
I think that, when evolving personally, when seeking enlightenment, there is this darkness in all of us that we must face and get past, often it comes in the form of the materialistic world-greed-consumption vs understanding and making positive change, thats how I saw that level. I don't think inner change can come without some kind of conflict, the same with outer change and i like how they set it up to shock me, literally, the way they did. I just assume that was their intent and it worked for me.
I think the problem may have been that the game was too short. Had there been a couple more relaxation levels before they jolted the player, their intent may have been more obvious and perhaps more appreciated.
Either way, no matter how you define Zen or whether you thought it lead to tedious annoyance or acute focus, this game is jolting folks left and right, and I think the overall effects are positive in the end. It's a shame that more people aren't spending more time on how great that is.
I think that if the game hadn't been set up as a zen game, the level in question wouldn't have had as much impact on me. If we are talking in terms of zen and experiences and inner metamorphosis and all that kind of deep stuff, then the intent of the game, and the level in question, should be viewed with that in mind.
When I think zen, I think about going into that mode of automatism in my brain where I am in the moment, and having that state of mind bring me to a realization. I don't study the stuff, so I don't know how accurate that is, but that's the mindset I had. I'd have to say that the first moment of shock, when I thought I was playing a game that wouldn't include such things, was a pretty memorable moment and it definitely snapped me into reality and got my attention. Not to mention how it set things up for the last level.
I think that, when evolving personally, when seeking enlightenment, there is this darkness in all of us that we must face and get past, often it comes in the form of the materialistic world-greed-consumption vs understanding and making positive change, thats how I saw that level. I don't think inner change can come without some kind of conflict, the same with outer change and i like how they set it up to shock me, literally, the way they did. I just assume that was their intent and it worked for me.
I think the problem may have been that the game was too short. Had there been a couple more relaxation levels before they jolted the player, their intent may have been more obvious and perhaps more appreciated.
Either way, no matter how you define Zen or whether you thought it lead to tedious annoyance or acute focus, this game is jolting folks left and right, and I think the overall effects are positive in the end. It's a shame that more people aren't spending more time on how great that is.
Despite the 1 wtf level, I'd like to still try this game. I want to see what its like but I'll have to wait till I get a PS3 to do it :-( It would be unnerving even subconciously to suddenly get tossed into a situation where you have to go into "fight or flight" mode. I'm guessing your experience was like sleeping, having an awesome dream, then all of a sudden "WAKE UP ITS GO TIME" then trying to go back to sleep when its over.
A valid concern and a great explanation of your disappointment. Your last paragraph sums it all up pretty well.
I loved the game. A lot. But I do agree with you. It didn't ruin the experience for me, or even detract from it a great deal, but it did feel out of place.
It was all made up for with that final shot though, imo. I had goosebumps so bad, I almost shook myself off the couch.
It was all made up for with that final shot though, imo. I had goosebumps so bad, I almost shook myself off the couch.
I'm with Silverdragon's comments, and I also disagree regarding your point of view. Games need changes of pace. The contrast is there for a reason. It works, imo.
Having finally played this, I agree that the fifth level is completely jarring and my least favorite part of the game. I felt tense and worried throughout the whole thing. Zen or not, though, I think this is a good thing. The developers clearly want you to be worried and kind of scared on that level - it's the conflict in the "story" of the game. (And yes, I know there's no actual story, but there's a progression of emotions that occur throughout the game and how they affect the levels.) The earlier levels were leading up to it, and it seemed to fit, in a way. It's notable that there aren't any penalties to messing up and getting zapped either - you say that you lose petals, but I never once saw my petal amount decrease after many zaps, and you can just keep on playing.
That being said, the trophy for getting through that level unscathed is retarded, because there's one part in the maze where towers fall on you and the wind pushes you right into them. People have done it, but even following their advice, I just can't get it.
That being said, the trophy for getting through that level unscathed is retarded, because there's one part in the maze where towers fall on you and the wind pushes you right into them. People have done it, but even following their advice, I just can't get it.
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