There's so much amazing and truth in that statement, that I think I have to lie down for a bit.
The last couple of paragraphs made me smile, the ones about Journey and Flower. They contained a perfect example of the patented Holmes back-handed compliment, comparing these games to "glorified interactive screensavers" :)
I've honestly never given much thought to the "games as art" topic, mainly because to me it's blatantly obvious that games are art. I've never had to try to convince a non-gamer that games are art, but if I have to I'll refer them to this post. Thanks!
BTW Good post Jonathan!
I still remember in Galaxy 2 when there was a dark and gloomy underwater level, where you were always closed in and trying to get through it fast so you didn't run out of air. The whole level was so claustrophobic, then at the end of the level, you emerge from the water, and to your right there is a brilliant sunrise. Such a wonderful contrast that makes me want to play that game all over again.
Or even when a Cave Story song pops up on my iPod it always makes me think of the area it was in, and all the fun I had, or the feelings I had while the song was playing (Break Down.. :'C -just listen to it Holmes and you'll get what i mean).
Fuck good videogames are awesome.
They can't play them"
In time this point could be terribly invalid, but for right now it rings pretty true and is somewhat of a breakthrough for this discussion.
Maybe it should be posed as a question: "They can't play them?"
Yes, I know that they are not designed in the most obvious, video game-y way but there is so, so, SO much more to its design than that. Some said the same about Rez. I wish I smarter so I could articulate why but I just know that comparing these games to screen savers just seems obviously wrong.
But the rest, Holmes. Great stuff. Some salient points are made.
But I have one question for you.
When you definitely had sex with the woman in this video, was that pedophilia or not?
I agree with the point that Roger Ebert made:
"One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them."
I don't agree that games will never be art though. But they'll never reach the heights of cinema or film imo.
Art has no strict definition, ergo people can simply state "I think games are/aren't art", cause they haz opinions (like I do! while making this comment! I'm so glad for myself). Nobody cares about truth, it's about "being right" (in my awesome opinon, and I don't care about your counterarguments)
Split hairs if you want about the intent. Marketed products are every bit as much art as labors of love or things made to make a point.
Tools (like arrowheads or jackhammers) can be art. Shit (see: "The Holy Virgin Mary" by Chris Ofili and "Artist's shit" by Piero Manzoni) can be art. Paintings, sculptures and image sequences usually fall squarely into the category of art. And here's where I get controversial. Porn can safely be considered performance art. Love it or hate it, that's what it is. It involves skilled performers (usually more skilled than artists doing what is legitimately considered performance art) and celebrates sexuality, whether it suits your tastes or not. Whether the artifact left behind is a video product, some bits on your hard drive or a spooge stain on the ceiling doesn't really matter. It's fucking art.
Proof that games are art: go to cghub.com and have a look around. Not only are games comparable to walk-in art installations where simulated experiences and reactions to them are the point, but the preponderance of visual talent that goes into them has made this argument moot for me pretty much from the word "go."
As for your question, I think most people still feel very alienated by videogames. No art form has been embraced quickly, let us just wait a couple more decades.
"Overly technical, because by that logic everything conceived by man is "art" which is clearly the dumbest down-play of everything the word really stands for."
That's language for you. And it's also part of my point. The emotion that things elicit from you doesn't change the meaning of words. Saying Object X is an "insult" to Institution Y is just a reflection of your feelings on the matter. 50 Shades of Grey is "literature." Debbie Does Dallas is "cinema." Custer's Revenge is a "game."
I also firmly disagree with "simulations don't count." A painting is a "simulation" of a landscape or a subject. Sculpture, video, etc...
Also... could you please stop embedding your videos as a playlist? It's really annoying to start typing my comment but having to scroll back up to stop the next video that started.
Finally... are you saying porn can't be art? Because I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.
Fuck them, all of them. Really any activity that is not productive is a waste of time, but I know my waste of time is better than other's.
When my fucking gf tells me I'm wasting time playing BF3...bitch it's better than watching the gorilla kardashian sister's show.
Or when I'm just sitting and reading some ASOIAF, my fucking sisters have the nerve to say I'm wasting time? They have the fucking audacity to say they havr better taste than ME!!?? They fucking think the acting in Twilight is award winning. Don't even get me started on the books!
I hate hate Hate HaTe HATE HATE! !HATE! when people criticize my interests and hobbies, telling me it's a waste of time.
Fuck them, their children, and their children's children with SARS.
*RAGE*
Wether or not video games are art is a tiresome argument that needs to curl up and die. Most of what is considered art - by people who consider that moniker valuable - doesn't matter or have any value to normal people. The more artistic something is typically deemed, the more it relies on the artist or the art fan to tell others why it's important with verbose descriptions that don't have any rational reflection on the work itself. I see a dot matrix painting as a dot matrix, not a study on the futility of societal symmetry or some such contrived logic that may have passed through the artist's head as he was producing it. Video games are comprised of various artistic fields united by interactive systems to make the whole enjoyable and fun, and that's a hell of a lot more useful and gratifying than most things that take up space in a museum and have million dollar price tags attached. Art is subjective, and it's often equally stupid and pretentious. If Justin Bieber can be considered an artist in his field than why the hell can't Cliff Blezinski? Why does the nonsense classification even still exist? We need a better word than art to qualify things that have non-utilitarian value, cus it just has too much pompous baggage attached to the term.
;)
As a music major I always try to relate the case of videogames to music and I often come down to the same thought.
Composers often have the desire to greatly captivate their audience. Game developers often do too. Some composers and developers do not set out to do that and it's alright, they simply want to entertain.
Sometimes composers and developers miss the mark and receive horrible reviews. They had a great vision, but could not execute.
Sometimes art is effective (Good and enjoyable) while other times it is ineffective. (A failed attempt.) Other times a work, be it a piece of music, a book, a movie, a game, or anything else was not intended to be more than what it was: entertainment.
The human minds capacity to find art in life is virtually boundless, but it is in the mind of the human whether the artwork is effective and enjoyable. That said, it is in the creators hands if the work is even intended to be art or not.
Personally though, there is no doubt games can be art. Pouring heart and soul and creativity into a design cannot be labeled any other way. But on the other hand, if you were to liken to film, you're not going to show Transformers at Cannes. Just like CoD and Fez are not in the same place. Video games are, on the whole, progressive regardless of your stance, and getting that out is important. Video games are to us and the generation before us as "Devil Music" and the Rolling Stones (among others) were to our elders and the generation before them. Unfortunately a matter of time that can't come soon enough. Keep fighting the good fight!
And seeing how this "screensaver" does in fact have powerups, gamey abilities, easter eggs, and multiplayer shows you obviously havent even played it and just assume its like what sofik thinks it is.
Damn it johnathan holmes stop making me be negative towards your beautiful cocoa face
Mario, especially the original (to my mind) will always remain a pinnacle of the art form. Art is not as narrow a field as many would have you believe, or in fact as you would have us believe. To me the art of a game in mostly in the way it makes you feel to play the game, and Mario makes me feel something distinct that I find very hard to express. That is fine art right there.
Once again, thanks Holmes for a brilliant article.
When I think about this subject that's the same feeling I get. I think its all in the language; words like 'game' and 'play' lend themselves to juvenile behavior and therefore people don't want to be seen as playing games because it is childish.
I like your point that art is essentially a huge waste of time. This is true and because film, painting, sculpture have more prestige then video games people do not act as if they are meaningless.
I always wonder what would happen if we used different words to describe the medium... haven't thought of any better ones than what we have though.
As for games becoming as influential and emotionally relevant as movies and books, I think we will get there one day. Gaming is still so young and the technology is changing rapidly. Games are kinda still going through puberty and as many of us remember, other than discovering the joys of masturbation, puberty kinda sucked. I think the gaming industry has a lot of issues it needs to work out in the mean time if video games are to be presented with the same emotional scope and depth as movies and books.
Neat article. Lost of words and thoughts for my pancake buffet brain to process.
Movies....i dunno like 100 years?
Videogames: like...40 some years?
There is your answer. Perception of videogames have evolved and will continue to do so....
This debate is like gay marriage. Just get it over with and proclaim the gays can marry, and that video games ARE art, becaue we already know what will be universally accepted eventually.
Even if having victory conditions means anything, if an interactive piece of art has, as its end goal, experiencing that which the artist(s) intend for the audience to see or feel, is that not a victory condition both for the audience and the artist(s) and thus, does that make interactive art installments somehow less artistic?
For the record Holmes, we both know cats know more than we allow ourselves, or the cats allow us to think they know. Cats, like humans have non predatory brain freedom
With that said, can games be artistic? Yes. Are there many? Not really. Video games are more toys than anything else. On a yearly basis, you'd have trouble naming any mainstream titles that are anything but dumb. Fun maybe, but still dumb. And that's a problem. You can't hope for games to be recognized as an art form when games like Call of Duty, Mass Effect or Lollipop Chainsaw are what the industry is kicking out. Quite frankly, I don't see video games ever stepping up to any kind of higher intellectual standard in this regard. And the media doesn't help. Rather than earn respect, critics simply demand it. Not going to happen.
One thing that bothers me about this debate, is that even after we establish that games are or can be art, we then tend to start talking about if some games are "more" art than other games. I find this completely ridiculous. You wouldn't compare the Mona Lisa and Starry Night on a scale of art to more art. Where does this idea that art is a scale even come from? There can be good art and bad art I guess, art that you do or do not like. But to say that one piece of work is more artistic than another seems so vague and contrived. There isn't really any criteria you can universally apply to that type of an argument, because judgement of art largely comes from what each individual feels about it.
For me personally, the more i blur the lines that divide my own production (I've produced sculptures, paintings, videos, installation as well as working as an museum exhibition designer and am currently working on my first game) The more I realise that there are no dividing lines. The contemporary fine art world quite jealously guards its borders and maintains a mystique in order to maintain prices and uphold its business model. And that's what it is, a business model to sell unique objects. None of which are necessarily more conceptually valid than any commercial times. At least this is my current point of view.
On a separate note, all of the game designers that I've seen being referenced as saying that they don't make art are Japanese. I was reading in a book on Takashi Murakami (can't find a web reference, but I'm pretty sure it was essays inthe back of http://www.amazon.com/Summon-Monsters-Open-Door-Heal/dp/4939148033) about the struggle of his early career in terms of developing a western style market for contemporary art in Japan, which (apparently) until fairly recently viewed art in a more more restrictive and traditional way than the west.

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