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Dude makes a somewhat misguided statement in support of his own games and the company that held his own exclusivity contract and the internet acts surprised and throws hissy fits about it for weeks as if this shit doesn't happen all the time.
Oh, internet! :D
Oh, internet! :D
Eh, I reckon Sony are far more happy to take a risk on something that may or may not work, specially with mroe "grown up" less "actiony" titles.
not that that's a good or bad thing, MS has the shooter crowd, Nintendo has the play for fun crowd, and Sony has the "interactive movie" loving crowd.
Having all of them works, well it does once you sell your wii. lol
not that that's a good or bad thing, MS has the shooter crowd, Nintendo has the play for fun crowd, and Sony has the "interactive movie" loving crowd.
Having all of them works, well it does once you sell your wii. lol
High art is defined as timeless, socially, culturally and intellectually relevent work. Journey's going for timelessness I guess, but generally both it and Heavy Rain merely adopt "adult", emotional aesthetics,and the latter just ends up looking like se7en-light.
They're middlebrow, and games can do better than middlebrow.
They're middlebrow, and games can do better than middlebrow.
Although I disagree with Jonathan's assessment of Journey and games from thatgamecompany. I appreciate his opinion and can see where he is coming from. I think Jenova is right though to a certain extent, the Sony platform seems to have taken a bunch more risk with games that the other two have not and that as a gamer I appreciate. Although the recent release of FEZ has been great I think it shows just how few and far between MS would have a game like that on its system. I wish that weren't the case.
Although I disagree with Jonathan's assessment of Journey and games from thatgamecompany. I appreciate his opinion and can see where he is coming from. I think Jenova is right though to a certain extent, the Sony platform seems to have taken a bunch more risk with games that the other two have not and that as a gamer I appreciate. Although the recent release of FEZ has been great I think it shows just how few and far between MS would have a game like that on its system. I wish that weren't the case.
Lol that girl was awesome.
Never thought I'd see comparisons made with Journey and Animal Crossing. I think both games are art. I have more of an inclination to Journey, probably because that game made me sob at the end, but I just prefer the atmosphere, music, etc. And that's not because I don't like "cutesy" games.
This is interesting though, it's making me think of what experiences I think of or am expecting when I decide to power on a certain console.
Never thought I'd see comparisons made with Journey and Animal Crossing. I think both games are art. I have more of an inclination to Journey, probably because that game made me sob at the end, but I just prefer the atmosphere, music, etc. And that's not because I don't like "cutesy" games.
This is interesting though, it's making me think of what experiences I think of or am expecting when I decide to power on a certain console.
boo hoo someone bashed your precious xbox now you have to make sure everyone knows you have art too. grow up. this wasn't even funny, it was just sad.
@roostex
W-what? Did you read the article? I doubt he wanted this to be funny, and if you knew Holmes you'd know that he doesn't really like the Xbox.
W-what? Did you read the article? I doubt he wanted this to be funny, and if you knew Holmes you'd know that he doesn't really like the Xbox.
I think that the remark was likely a comment more on demographics than on taste. The PS3 skews older on almost all the demographic information. The simple fact is that PS3 gamers are older than those that purchase and use the other consoles. From a developer point of view, it means that there are more adults on the system and more mature games "might: sell better... not that they do.
Sony of course is going to push the whole "sophisticated, more mature gamer/art" crap simply because they can't compete at all on the lucrative casual front. The Wii stole the show on acquiring new gamers and the Xbox Kinect is doing a close runner up position on the casual front. Sony has nothing so it's not surprising that their marketing angle is going to be adult/mature/artistic and all that B.S.
I expect Sony will push even further on the whole "hardcore" marketing aspect at E3. They'll try and showcase gamer's games - games that take risks, are more adult, more sophisticated and better explore adult situations or emotions - but it's really mostly marketing.
The Last of Us... big budget movie game
Dust 514 ... interactivity with an established PC game that has a large meta-world and politics.
God of War... with digital sex
These will all likely be shown at E3 and Sony will push the "we're the console for adults" angle. It may or may not work, but frankly, they can't capture any other market at this point (and may alienate the market they do have if they tried... the Move controller has really only been successful so far as a light gun to play the various shooter games that can also be played without Move).
meh... my thoughts anyway.
Sony uses "sophisticated", "grown-up", "artistic" and "confident" because Nintendo and Microsoft stole the lucrative "fun", "family oriented", "active", "healthy" and "your body is the controller" stuff. You can't fault them for their marketing any more than you can fault Microsoft or Nintendo for theirs (and they've taken some flak from the gamer community too).
Oh... and just a note that I didn't watch the video. I always read these and I LOVE your writing Jonathan... you're such a talented writer. I always go to comment but figure I'll do so after watching the video, but I just never get around to watching it. From now on, I'll just comment based on the written part... cause I can always comment again if I do watch the video! :)
(I'm just not a real video type person)
Sony of course is going to push the whole "sophisticated, more mature gamer/art" crap simply because they can't compete at all on the lucrative casual front. The Wii stole the show on acquiring new gamers and the Xbox Kinect is doing a close runner up position on the casual front. Sony has nothing so it's not surprising that their marketing angle is going to be adult/mature/artistic and all that B.S.
I expect Sony will push even further on the whole "hardcore" marketing aspect at E3. They'll try and showcase gamer's games - games that take risks, are more adult, more sophisticated and better explore adult situations or emotions - but it's really mostly marketing.
The Last of Us... big budget movie game
Dust 514 ... interactivity with an established PC game that has a large meta-world and politics.
God of War... with digital sex
These will all likely be shown at E3 and Sony will push the "we're the console for adults" angle. It may or may not work, but frankly, they can't capture any other market at this point (and may alienate the market they do have if they tried... the Move controller has really only been successful so far as a light gun to play the various shooter games that can also be played without Move).
meh... my thoughts anyway.
Sony uses "sophisticated", "grown-up", "artistic" and "confident" because Nintendo and Microsoft stole the lucrative "fun", "family oriented", "active", "healthy" and "your body is the controller" stuff. You can't fault them for their marketing any more than you can fault Microsoft or Nintendo for theirs (and they've taken some flak from the gamer community too).
Oh... and just a note that I didn't watch the video. I always read these and I LOVE your writing Jonathan... you're such a talented writer. I always go to comment but figure I'll do so after watching the video, but I just never get around to watching it. From now on, I'll just comment based on the written part... cause I can always comment again if I do watch the video! :)
(I'm just not a real video type person)
Holmes, how come last week's article has the same video embedded as this one? I'm pretty sure it used to be a different episode, but now it's changed. Are you going to change this one too, soon? Is this some sort of artistic statement on virtual bumcheeks?
Also I love your wisdoms.
Also I love your wisdoms.
I have often found in politics that when your idea isn't successful or well-received - usually meaning its a bad idea - that rather than admit it was a bad idea or that there are problems with it is to assert that the idea was too sophisticated, that there is a communication issue or people just can't possibly understand how awesome and beneficial your (absolutely terrible) idea (that probably benefits a campaign contributor more than society) is.
Sony pretty much does the same thing. They've been last or near last in every market they participate in for several years now so this is their strategy (read: being too proud to admit they've fallen behind and are out of touch). PSP was to "elevate handheld gaming out of the 'ghetto'" and we were all supposed to take on second jobs because we wanted a PS3 that badly, right?
Sony's best artists have left Sony. Team Ico's artistic pillars are gone, the games produced by thatgamecompany were a three-game contract deal and David Cage and Quantic Dreams are only in games because they could never get the horseshit they make greenlit as movies.
It would be best for Sony to embrace the mainstream consumer as they once did with PS2. They had a better philosophy back then, at least for their game division. I guess much can't be done about the music and entertainment divisions as they'll always be batshit insane and paranoid about piracy and against new-fangled things like video streaming.
Sony pretty much does the same thing. They've been last or near last in every market they participate in for several years now so this is their strategy (read: being too proud to admit they've fallen behind and are out of touch). PSP was to "elevate handheld gaming out of the 'ghetto'" and we were all supposed to take on second jobs because we wanted a PS3 that badly, right?
Sony's best artists have left Sony. Team Ico's artistic pillars are gone, the games produced by thatgamecompany were a three-game contract deal and David Cage and Quantic Dreams are only in games because they could never get the horseshit they make greenlit as movies.
It would be best for Sony to embrace the mainstream consumer as they once did with PS2. They had a better philosophy back then, at least for their game division. I guess much can't be done about the music and entertainment divisions as they'll always be batshit insane and paranoid about piracy and against new-fangled things like video streaming.
While I agree that the whole 'artistic' debate is a little stupid, and that real art is more about substance than style my general perception of the PS3 compared to the 360 and the Wii has been that it's aimed for a more sophisticated audience - or atleast one more willing to accept foreign or unusual elements within their games. I don't think that 'sophisticated' should necessarily be a bad word though, aslong as we accept that simple and complex aren't necessarily two ends of a spectrum when it comes to how we value games. Both can be equally fun and appeal to different aspects of our nature in equally important ways.
Also, on the PS1/2 Sony discouraging 2D thing, I'd say that's exactly what we don't need with games. Real creativity often comes from taking something and making it anew, and realising that often cliches/tropes/conventions are there not necessarily because they're right but because they've never been challenged. 2D is a just as viable medium for games as 3D, often being able to evoke different emotions and playing experiences from 3D, something games like Lone Survivor have shown.
Also, on the PS1/2 Sony discouraging 2D thing, I'd say that's exactly what we don't need with games. Real creativity often comes from taking something and making it anew, and realising that often cliches/tropes/conventions are there not necessarily because they're right but because they've never been challenged. 2D is a just as viable medium for games as 3D, often being able to evoke different emotions and playing experiences from 3D, something games like Lone Survivor have shown.
When i read Jonathan Holmes's articles(not news) i get all soul-searchy and weird.
very thought provoking and awesome !
very thought provoking and awesome !
@Wedge Hrm, a Linda Project work I haven't seen before. My guess is that Holmes found it a while ago and has been waiting for an excuse to use it.
For me, the real "art" aspect of Journey came not from the linearity/aesthetics/level design, but mostly from the human interaction element of the game.
This article made me think, I'm not a fan of thinking...but seriously good article, I tried demos for both flower and journey, while they were both very nice to look at I was bored out of my mind for the entire demo. I too would prefer a game more like Animal Crossing.
Competition is always a part of art, why do you think the art community is infamously stereotyped for being so pretentious?
I don’t know, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that Sony tries to be “grown up”, or that they tried in the past at least, they should probably stop now. But at the time, when the PS1 came out and it was marketed to adults and showed they can play games without shame, it was kind of a big deal, I mean, these days most of us realise we don’t need other peoples approval to “validate” our hobby, but back then, it was a growing pain we needed to get through, the PS1 was gaming’s puberty.
But yeah, they need to embrace all of gaming now, the Playstation Allstars being a knock off of Smash Bros but “grown up” is stupid, they should have done the inverse, they would have been much better off taking serious characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake and Twisted Metal Clown Fire Head Guy and putting them all in a cutsie game.
I do disagree that Nintendo just does whatever it wants though, they’re not the Willy Wonka of gaming, they have their own demographics and strategies, the Wii U’s controller isn’t like that just because they think it’ll be neat, there’s reasons and tactics and motives behind that design, we’ll find out what at E3 and when it’s released I guess. But just like Sony and Microsoft, they’re taking their specific approach for specific reasons, and hey, none of that is a bad thing! Just because it stems from marketing bollocks doesn’t mean it’s necessarily bad (says the marketing student :D).
But yeah, they need to embrace all of gaming now, the Playstation Allstars being a knock off of Smash Bros but “grown up” is stupid, they should have done the inverse, they would have been much better off taking serious characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake and Twisted Metal Clown Fire Head Guy and putting them all in a cutsie game.
I do disagree that Nintendo just does whatever it wants though, they’re not the Willy Wonka of gaming, they have their own demographics and strategies, the Wii U’s controller isn’t like that just because they think it’ll be neat, there’s reasons and tactics and motives behind that design, we’ll find out what at E3 and when it’s released I guess. But just like Sony and Microsoft, they’re taking their specific approach for specific reasons, and hey, none of that is a bad thing! Just because it stems from marketing bollocks doesn’t mean it’s necessarily bad (says the marketing student :D).
It seems a little unfair to compare Heavy Rain to Fez, Heavy Rain was at least trying to revitalize the adventure genre to the mainstream, Fez just seems like another drop in the pool of quirky retro platformers that are all the rage on PC.
Not that Heavy Rain was Great, but I admired the ambition being an adventure fan. The only other options are the amazing S&M games and the less amazing licensed Telltale games.
Not that Heavy Rain was Great, but I admired the ambition being an adventure fan. The only other options are the amazing S&M games and the less amazing licensed Telltale games.
"After Metal Gear, Resident Evil, and Tomb Raider made the "Hollywood" approach to game development popular, Sony dropped its mascots in favor of titles like Uncharted, God of War, and Heavy Rain. The fact that we have three Uncharted games on the PS3 but not one title from Team Ico on the console shows exactly where Sony's priorities are in terms of plagiarism vs. originality."
RE, MGS and TR all started on PS. Well, MGS at least, so you can't really accuse sony of ripping itself off.
And they've been trying to release last guardian, but internal issues prevent that, and they did release TEAM ICO HD recently.
And you seem to be ignoring LBP and Ratchet when it comes to PS3 Mascots, there have been 4 Ratchets on PS3 and 2 Main LPB games, Not to mention a new Sly on the way.
RE, MGS and TR all started on PS. Well, MGS at least, so you can't really accuse sony of ripping itself off.
And they've been trying to release last guardian, but internal issues prevent that, and they did release TEAM ICO HD recently.
And you seem to be ignoring LBP and Ratchet when it comes to PS3 Mascots, there have been 4 Ratchets on PS3 and 2 Main LPB games, Not to mention a new Sly on the way.
"Its emptiness permits the player to project their own thoughts and feelings into the game, taking in very few ideas directly from the developer. It feels a little like a cop out, like the player is tricked into thinking it's "deep" because of the depth they're permitted to project from themselves into the game's world."
This relates directly to the DayZ mod. The guy who created it is getting a lot of credit for not too much at all. On a slightly unrelated rant, any form of tension and depth that was originally in the game where you had to choose if people were trustworthy or not, has changed to a game where there is no tension because everyone else has vowed to pk just because.
This relates directly to the DayZ mod. The guy who created it is getting a lot of credit for not too much at all. On a slightly unrelated rant, any form of tension and depth that was originally in the game where you had to choose if people were trustworthy or not, has changed to a game where there is no tension because everyone else has vowed to pk just because.
Hah, I think I'd blame team ico for the lack of game ! I'm sure they'd walk it right out there right now if they could- it must really be in a bad way .
i fail to see any artistic merit in games like Flower, Heavy Rain or Journey. the same people who claim that's art are probably the ones who call Lady Gaga an artist or how she has an influence on fashion or whatever. for me that's the same level of "art".
i know quite a few games that are considered art those that were mentioned in this article, aren't - and no, making game with unique or less common artstyle or focusing or different type of gameplay doesn't mean it's art. those are just means to tell something and enhance it and that "something" is what i would consider ART in terms of games. sadly none of those games do that. as for games that do that(cause you know there will be immediately people who will demand titles) i would easily say: Nier, To the Moon, Dear Esther, Botanicula, Machinarium, Limbo.
i know quite a few games that are considered art those that were mentioned in this article, aren't - and no, making game with unique or less common artstyle or focusing or different type of gameplay doesn't mean it's art. those are just means to tell something and enhance it and that "something" is what i would consider ART in terms of games. sadly none of those games do that. as for games that do that(cause you know there will be immediately people who will demand titles) i would easily say: Nier, To the Moon, Dear Esther, Botanicula, Machinarium, Limbo.
Ok... I did watch the video and for some reason I found it condescending. I get that this is supposed to be satire, but it really looks like she doesn't know much about games. She knew art, but only really seemed familiar with Heavy Rain and Mario and didn't even have much to say about it.
If you're going for satire, I would prefer that there be smart female responses (from women that KNOW games) to your rather "dumb" questions. It's probably the writing because it does still seem scripted, and I'm sure the lady likely is a gamer - but it just doesn't show. She didn't get riled up and passionate about games that she felt were or weren't art (and most every gamer has some sort of emotional response to this question).
I love the articles, but the few video sequences I've seen in this series still make me feel uncomfortable - like the series is somehow exploiting the idea that women aren't gamers... but the "man" who has to explain all these games to her is.
I think I'll just stick to reading the article part of this series...
If you're going for satire, I would prefer that there be smart female responses (from women that KNOW games) to your rather "dumb" questions. It's probably the writing because it does still seem scripted, and I'm sure the lady likely is a gamer - but it just doesn't show. She didn't get riled up and passionate about games that she felt were or weren't art (and most every gamer has some sort of emotional response to this question).
I love the articles, but the few video sequences I've seen in this series still make me feel uncomfortable - like the series is somehow exploiting the idea that women aren't gamers... but the "man" who has to explain all these games to her is.
I think I'll just stick to reading the article part of this series...
Ugh... Im kinda burnt out on art discussion/debate in any shape or form :/
I actually liked your assessment of the consoles in a random episode of podtoid. It was somewhere along the lines of kids generally gravitate to Nintendo for the kribys and marios. After hitting their teens they want to be viewed as more mature and are suckers for badical radical products like the xbox. Finally after growing up and entering their twenties the playstation 3 becomes more fitting to their refined tastes. Then after hitting 40 and having kids they find their selves back with Nintendo playing wii sports.
Not your words exactly but that was the gist of it and as far as major demographics go id say you were/are right.
I actually liked your assessment of the consoles in a random episode of podtoid. It was somewhere along the lines of kids generally gravitate to Nintendo for the kribys and marios. After hitting their teens they want to be viewed as more mature and are suckers for badical radical products like the xbox. Finally after growing up and entering their twenties the playstation 3 becomes more fitting to their refined tastes. Then after hitting 40 and having kids they find their selves back with Nintendo playing wii sports.
Not your words exactly but that was the gist of it and as far as major demographics go id say you were/are right.
I agree and disagree with Mr. Chen. On one hand, Sony started this generation by copying both Nintendo and Microsoft in terms of console design. On another hand, I prefer a great number of the Sony knock-off's to Microsoft's original IPs.
Still, when it comes down to it, I will always stick with Nintendo. I don't care if liking Mario and Zelda keeps me squarely in the past or in my childhood; it makes me happy.
Still, when it comes down to it, I will always stick with Nintendo. I don't care if liking Mario and Zelda keeps me squarely in the past or in my childhood; it makes me happy.
The fact that you cared enough to write pages of commentary on some PR schmuck running business as usual... you're a very special person, Holmes.
Number 1 complaint my Xbox buddies have regarding XBL: Too many pre-pubescent, foul-mouthed kids online.
Kinda proves Mr Chen's point a bit...
I'm probably now in the mature gamer demographic, and I'm truly happy being a PS3 user. I get plenty of games that my wife the-anti gamer doesn't complain too much about, so I'd say they tailor more to me than other console makers.
Nothing on Wii excites me; left Mario behind almost 2 decades ago.
Xbox? Hmm Halo always bored me and just about any other game is multi-plat. While Gears looks pretty cool, I found myself numbed by the mindless action. Kinda like watching a John Woo movie...
PS3 is where it's at for family guys like me. In fact, all my older friends with wives/kids opt for PS3, while my younger single friends are on Xbox...says something!
Kinda proves Mr Chen's point a bit...
I'm probably now in the mature gamer demographic, and I'm truly happy being a PS3 user. I get plenty of games that my wife the-anti gamer doesn't complain too much about, so I'd say they tailor more to me than other console makers.
Nothing on Wii excites me; left Mario behind almost 2 decades ago.
Xbox? Hmm Halo always bored me and just about any other game is multi-plat. While Gears looks pretty cool, I found myself numbed by the mindless action. Kinda like watching a John Woo movie...
PS3 is where it's at for family guys like me. In fact, all my older friends with wives/kids opt for PS3, while my younger single friends are on Xbox...says something!
So this entire article, in a nutshell, says Sony likes to rip off Microsoft and Nintendo's super original ideas, and animal crossing is better than journey.
Thats great, Holmes, id like my 10 minutes back now.
Thats great, Holmes, id like my 10 minutes back now.
I understand what Sephiroth's mom (The true villain of FFVII) is saying and is trying to say, and to some extent I agree. However, it's one of those things that you just shouldn't say because it will never go over well if you do.
Jonathan,
I've been following you for quite a while during your tenure on Dtoid, and let's be honest with ourselves here: if Jenova Chen had been turning out products for Nintendo, and made similar comments, would you have felt as compelled to write this article? You should consider taking a long hard look in the mirror, and ask yourself this.
I've been following you for quite a while during your tenure on Dtoid, and let's be honest with ourselves here: if Jenova Chen had been turning out products for Nintendo, and made similar comments, would you have felt as compelled to write this article? You should consider taking a long hard look in the mirror, and ask yourself this.
Great article Holmes, keep more stuff like this coming. You've given me some things to think about next time I play Animal Crossing.
Dear Holmes,
Sup? Have you played Journey from start to finish? I'm just wondering because it seems like it would be hard to treat it like you did in this article if you had. I simply felt you were overly harsh. However, I haven't played animal crossing, so I can't say anything one way or the other about your juxtaposition there. What would you say is the best Animal Crossing game for the DS/3DS? You've made me want to give it a try now and that's the only Nintendo console I currently have.
No hard feelings,
Jeniken
Sup? Have you played Journey from start to finish? I'm just wondering because it seems like it would be hard to treat it like you did in this article if you had. I simply felt you were overly harsh. However, I haven't played animal crossing, so I can't say anything one way or the other about your juxtaposition there. What would you say is the best Animal Crossing game for the DS/3DS? You've made me want to give it a try now and that's the only Nintendo console I currently have.
No hard feelings,
Jeniken
Also, for everyone else.
ALL VIDEO GAMES ARE ART/ARTISTIC.
There are Van Goughs, Goyas, Rubens, Pollocks, and Bartletts. They are very different. You probably won't like them all. Get over it.
That will be all for today.
ALL VIDEO GAMES ARE ART/ARTISTIC.
There are Van Goughs, Goyas, Rubens, Pollocks, and Bartletts. They are very different. You probably won't like them all. Get over it.
That will be all for today.
These videos always start out like a porno. If i didn't know who Holmes is it wouldn't be a stretch to think he's about to offer these women money to have sex on video.
Saying that art isn't competitive sounds a bit ignorant of the history of art. All you need to do is read the letters between various musicians or writers and you can see theres always been an element of "my art is superior to yours". However much people want to idolise past artists they did often act in much the same way as developers today.
Think of this platform argument as artists of two different overlapping periods arguing about the superiority of their form.
Or I could just be full of ten shitloads of smelly shit.
Think of this platform argument as artists of two different overlapping periods arguing about the superiority of their form.
Or I could just be full of ten shitloads of smelly shit.
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