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"The issue stems from players visiting Ilum below their character has reached Level 40," Sorry, but is it supposed to be written like that, or am I just being a grammatical numpty?
Anyway, the threat level of exploits must be weird to gauge. I wonder if devs have a coloured charts that explain the threat level. Okay, they probably don't, but there must be a bulletpoint memo floating around; one I'd love to read.
Anyway, the threat level of exploits must be weird to gauge. I wonder if devs have a coloured charts that explain the threat level. Okay, they probably don't, but there must be a bulletpoint memo floating around; one I'd love to read.
It's my understanding that the real problem was exploiting the node respawn. When a faction takes over all the nodes respawn, and placing a few people on each side can flip everything back and forth pretty easily. The guy that got banned was doing it on Ilum to take advantage of the high level stuff.
Rockpapershotgun explained it a hell of a lot better than I did.
Rockpapershotgun explained it a hell of a lot better than I did.
"The issue stems from players visiting Ilum below their character has reached Level 40"
Should that say 'before'?
Should that say 'before'?
This is a little stupid. You'd think that if the crates contained level 40 gear, you'd have to be 40 to open them.
This is bullshit. If Dark Souls taught me anything (just defeated today, woo!). Is that if there's glitches/bugs/etc to exploit, it is fair game to exploit them to win and become the new Dark Lord.
A quick look at the Skyrim forum regarding crafting would answer your question. Yes this would be considered a game breaking exploit in a single player game. Gamers are a fickle bunch.
From the RPS story and biowares statement, it seems more like they're banning people for going there, grabbing the loot, and then leaving and returning so the loot respawns, for the sole purpose of farming it to sell for gold. It's no different than when people use exploits in CoD and get banned for breaking the game.
The terms of service people signed to play has them agree to not use exploits like this, so it's nothing like in an SP game where you don't agree to that.
The terms of service people signed to play has them agree to not use exploits like this, so it's nothing like in an SP game where you don't agree to that.
Mechman: Absolutely, they do this a lot. But I agree with RPS' assertion that BioWare needs to take a bit more responsibility than this. Leaving your door open isn't an excuse for getting robbed, even if you make the burglars promise they won't take anything.
I know that, "Most people don't read the TOS" is seen as an excuse by some, but many don't, and it's hard to think you've broken rules when you're working well within the parameters of what a game says you can do. The easiest answer for EVERYBODY is to stop people from doing it outright, rather than leaving that door open and simply expecting people not to use it.
I know that, "Most people don't read the TOS" is seen as an excuse by some, but many don't, and it's hard to think you've broken rules when you're working well within the parameters of what a game says you can do. The easiest answer for EVERYBODY is to stop people from doing it outright, rather than leaving that door open and simply expecting people not to use it.
Exploiting is always "breaking the game without hacking" and when they get a lot of loot, that they shouldn't be able to at this level, then you could call it exploiding.
Between this and banning people for cursing, I'm REALLY not liking the approach Bioware is taking now that they don't have complete and total control over the player's experience. They sound overwhelmed, honestly.
Crafting is busted too. I've been flooding the GTN with stuff I've made and am not high enough level to use and making mad bank because of it. It looks like I'm one of a few people who bothers making Artifact shit.
I can definitely understand their actions, I'm under the assumption that they are working on a fix for this problem though. The biggest problem I see with this is that the lower level players running in, looting and re spawning the chests are taking away from the players who are there legitimately. Also, if there are exploits like this in single player games don't they get fixed anyways? One example that comes to mind is the multiplication exploit in Oblivion, where after a process shooting an item with an arrow will spawn tons of copies of the item, which was patched out after awhile.
I don't have this game so this is all speculation on my part.
I don't have this game so this is all speculation on my part.
Why are people angry over this? Illum is a level 40+ zone. They are exploiting to get there before 40. Exploiting = ban.
"If a similar way to get high level loot existed in a single-player game, would it be classified as a damaging exploit, or simply a good money making method?"
Jim, with all due respect, MMOs and single player games are COMPLETELY different in these regards. In an MMO, your actions don't just affect your experience, but others' as well. Their point about the game economy is a sound one. I played EQ1 for a few years, and then EQ2 for a few years, and people that "'sploit" can really ruin the game.
The banning does sound harsh, but these players are repeat offenders and know exactly what they are doing. I would bet that they've played other MMOs and have a track record of finding these 'sploits and... well... exploiting them. It IS Bioware's responsibility to patch it, but patches need to be thoroughly tested because they can break shit real bad, so it will take them some time.
Jim, with all due respect, MMOs and single player games are COMPLETELY different in these regards. In an MMO, your actions don't just affect your experience, but others' as well. Their point about the game economy is a sound one. I played EQ1 for a few years, and then EQ2 for a few years, and people that "'sploit" can really ruin the game.
The banning does sound harsh, but these players are repeat offenders and know exactly what they are doing. I would bet that they've played other MMOs and have a track record of finding these 'sploits and... well... exploiting them. It IS Bioware's responsibility to patch it, but patches need to be thoroughly tested because they can break shit real bad, so it will take them some time.
I'm not surprised by this. Bioware has gone to lengths to PREVENT grinding. Certain mobs will stop dropping any loot for you if you kill them enough times in succession. Of course, a simple log out resets this, so it's not much of a system...
On a slightly unrelated note, I hit 50 last night (well, technically early this morning). Yay.
On a slightly unrelated note, I hit 50 last night (well, technically early this morning). Yay.
Biowares biggest fault in the game is the vice like control they try to place on the user. The entire game I've played so far (multiple Alts 16-25) is just too heavily scripted.
In persist of story they have removed freedom and variety, both of which are expectations of the genre. For example: WoW has 6 starting areas, with at least 2-3 areas for contet and leveling available per level range thereafter until the endgame level ranges. This game doesn't. You are on a straight line, visiting the same set prices and filling the mandatory story arc.
I think the big design flaw is they made a single player game and tacked multiplayer into it in the form of an MMO. I play on Sith Wyrm, very high pop, supposedly and I say that cause I rarely see more than the occasional person here or there. There's no massively multiplayer in the game, it's basically Kotor 3 / subscription money grab.
In persist of story they have removed freedom and variety, both of which are expectations of the genre. For example: WoW has 6 starting areas, with at least 2-3 areas for contet and leveling available per level range thereafter until the endgame level ranges. This game doesn't. You are on a straight line, visiting the same set prices and filling the mandatory story arc.
I think the big design flaw is they made a single player game and tacked multiplayer into it in the form of an MMO. I play on Sith Wyrm, very high pop, supposedly and I say that cause I rarely see more than the occasional person here or there. There's no massively multiplayer in the game, it's basically Kotor 3 / subscription money grab.
The thing with this, is that if they won't get banned, they can very easily break the whole server for months at least, even if the take measures to avoid it within weeks. Exploiting the existing bugs in game was always a reason for ban, temporary at the minimum.
Also from what I've read of the issue, it often/always coexists with people having friends on both sides and exploiting mechanic that respawns chests when zone changes sides, using the fact, that there is not enough high level players to create competitive environment for mechanic to be unexploitable.
Also from what I've read of the issue, it often/always coexists with people having friends on both sides and exploiting mechanic that respawns chests when zone changes sides, using the fact, that there is not enough high level players to create competitive environment for mechanic to be unexploitable.
"If a similar way to get high level loot existed in a single-player game..."
This totally misses the point. First, this is not a single player game, it's an MMO where the economics of the world affect many, not just one.
Secondly, if the behavior of the players is dishonest in nature and causes ill effects on other players, then I think you can find some culpability there.
True that BioWare should fix the problem, but a temporary ban gets the message out that dishonest game behavior is unacceptable and affords them time to fix the problem.
This totally misses the point. First, this is not a single player game, it's an MMO where the economics of the world affect many, not just one.
Secondly, if the behavior of the players is dishonest in nature and causes ill effects on other players, then I think you can find some culpability there.
True that BioWare should fix the problem, but a temporary ban gets the message out that dishonest game behavior is unacceptable and affords them time to fix the problem.
Thats a pretty lame reason to get banned. Would power leveling be an exploit, or using real-life money to by in-game credits? Because people are already getting whispered with advertisements.
Just put a level restriction on it and move on.
Just put a level restriction on it and move on.
@Jim
Do you expect them to patch it out? Have they said they are not going to patch it out?
I think they will fix it. And they should take responsibility for it being there in the first place. But the fastest way to make a stand is to do what they did. And the bans may have the added value of protecting in some fashion the next exploit.
Do you expect them to patch it out? Have they said they are not going to patch it out?
I think they will fix it. And they should take responsibility for it being there in the first place. But the fastest way to make a stand is to do what they did. And the bans may have the added value of protecting in some fashion the next exploit.
1: suspended =/= banned. I know, it doesn't make for the same level of sensationalism in the headline, and as such it doesn't allow Mr. Jim Sterling to play his hit whoring game as effectively as he'd like, but it's a rather large difference.
2: It's not for you to decide what is an exploit or not. To anyone that's actually playing the game around the level of Ilium, it's rather clear why it would be considered an exploit. Maybe you should get there before you take hearsay as gold. But again, that wouldn't work as well for your sensationalistic crusade.
They were exploiting, intentionally, not "playing the game wrong".
But Again, "SWTOR suspends players for exploiting the game" wouldn't sound as sensationalistic, right Jim?
2: It's not for you to decide what is an exploit or not. To anyone that's actually playing the game around the level of Ilium, it's rather clear why it would be considered an exploit. Maybe you should get there before you take hearsay as gold. But again, that wouldn't work as well for your sensationalistic crusade.
They were exploiting, intentionally, not "playing the game wrong".
But Again, "SWTOR suspends players for exploiting the game" wouldn't sound as sensationalistic, right Jim?
Sorry, Shiryu, I have to disagree. WoW (and other more experienced MMOs, I would presume) specifically put systems in place to prevent grinding like what this seems to suggest (having not played SWOTOR, I wouldn't know the exact details.) Players are being punished because they didn't implement restrictions - that's the job of the developer. Patch it out, remove the loot from people, do whatever you have to - but I think suspending people this early in an MMO for simply finding something beneficial and using it does not bode well.
What @ShiryuCG said.
Both the headline and article are built more to exact emotional response than to inform readers of the transpirings.
Why does this still surprise me every time? Perhaps one day I'll learn.
Both the headline and article are built more to exact emotional response than to inform readers of the transpirings.
Why does this still surprise me every time? Perhaps one day I'll learn.
Its an easy fix that I agree they need to implement quickly if they dont want a big fallout. Just like the nerfing they did to slicing. But anyway seeing as Ive never done something like this in an MMO before its a policy that wont affect me, but I will find a way to voice the need to level restrict the loot containers so people dont get needlessly banned.
Shiryu and TXYeti are right.
Also, for anyone that is surprised about this, most MMOs do this. Not sure why it's news that it's happening here, other than the fact that some people are looking for reasons to shit on SWTOR.
That being said, I haven't tried this game out yet, but hope to at some point this year.
Also, for anyone that is surprised about this, most MMOs do this. Not sure why it's news that it's happening here, other than the fact that some people are looking for reasons to shit on SWTOR.
That being said, I haven't tried this game out yet, but hope to at some point this year.
This is retarded. Every MMO I've ever played has measures to prevent this, or makes it excruciatingly hard to do.
Bioware - put more high level 50 mobs in Ilum around chests. Put a level limit on chest. Do something, other than being lazy as hell and banning players for this. If you could 100% prove all players were doing this to exploit the system and farm gold to sell to players for cash, that's one thing, but I know for a fact many people didn't see the harm in it. Next thing you know people will be banned for running guildies through Flashpoints for loot because "you weren't supposed to be there".
"True that BioWare should fix the problem, but a temporary ban gets the message out that dishonest game behavior is unacceptable and affords them time to fix the problem."
No - an email/warning gets the message out just fine when the TOS is so obscurely related to the suspension. Blizzard does this.
@Ralazar
What MMO has ever done this? If you're talking about Ultima banning for people using trainers/macros - that's different. That's using algorithms/coding to exploit the game outside of the game's infrastructure. Going to a planet using the game's haphazard ship transport system isn't an exploit.
Anbaraen is 100% right - most MMOs do not allow this to happen, and if they do, they patch it out.
Although I do agree that things like this can easily ruin the entire game's economy and do irreperable damage to it, the honus is not on the player to fix it, or deal with Bioware's shortcomings on their first MMO.
Bioware - put more high level 50 mobs in Ilum around chests. Put a level limit on chest. Do something, other than being lazy as hell and banning players for this. If you could 100% prove all players were doing this to exploit the system and farm gold to sell to players for cash, that's one thing, but I know for a fact many people didn't see the harm in it. Next thing you know people will be banned for running guildies through Flashpoints for loot because "you weren't supposed to be there".
"True that BioWare should fix the problem, but a temporary ban gets the message out that dishonest game behavior is unacceptable and affords them time to fix the problem."
No - an email/warning gets the message out just fine when the TOS is so obscurely related to the suspension. Blizzard does this.
@Ralazar
What MMO has ever done this? If you're talking about Ultima banning for people using trainers/macros - that's different. That's using algorithms/coding to exploit the game outside of the game's infrastructure. Going to a planet using the game's haphazard ship transport system isn't an exploit.
Anbaraen is 100% right - most MMOs do not allow this to happen, and if they do, they patch it out.
Although I do agree that things like this can easily ruin the entire game's economy and do irreperable damage to it, the honus is not on the player to fix it, or deal with Bioware's shortcomings on their first MMO.
@Chewy & arkane - If you don't understand the value and importance of respecting the time investment of players in an MMORPG, you have no business playing or commenting on MMORPGs in the first place. The in-game economy is one such time investment.
While disruption of an in-game economy is a valid concern, clearly Bioware and EA are at fault for not addressing it moreso than the players. Banning players for your fuck up is not a valid solution and, again, disrespectful of the player and their time investment in SWTOR. EA and Bioware would do will to own up o their mistake and let these players back in with a free month.
While disruption of an in-game economy is a valid concern, clearly Bioware and EA are at fault for not addressing it moreso than the players. Banning players for your fuck up is not a valid solution and, again, disrespectful of the player and their time investment in SWTOR. EA and Bioware would do will to own up o their mistake and let these players back in with a free month.
I applaud them for doing this. It's an online game, and a business for them.
You want to keep the game fair and balanced so that everyone can enjoy it. They established a Terms of Service, and it's player duty to try to play by the rules. It's just like any service based industry.
Restaurants reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Hotels can refuse to make your reservation at their discretion. I worked at a hotel that had a money back guarantee if you weren't happy with your stay, but rest assured we kept tabs on people that took advantage of the system. We weren't going to give away free service to people just because they manipulated our system.
If they don't do things like this to keep people in check, it turns into what FFXI almost became. Cheating was rampant for a long time, but due to their incredibly lax cheating policies and investigation methods, people got away with murder. It drove away a ton of business and turned it into a niche game for a while, where the only way to get anything done was accept the fact you'll never get anything done or cheat yourself.
SW:TOR is better off for doing this in the long run.
You want to keep the game fair and balanced so that everyone can enjoy it. They established a Terms of Service, and it's player duty to try to play by the rules. It's just like any service based industry.
Restaurants reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Hotels can refuse to make your reservation at their discretion. I worked at a hotel that had a money back guarantee if you weren't happy with your stay, but rest assured we kept tabs on people that took advantage of the system. We weren't going to give away free service to people just because they manipulated our system.
If they don't do things like this to keep people in check, it turns into what FFXI almost became. Cheating was rampant for a long time, but due to their incredibly lax cheating policies and investigation methods, people got away with murder. It drove away a ton of business and turned it into a niche game for a while, where the only way to get anything done was accept the fact you'll never get anything done or cheat yourself.
SW:TOR is better off for doing this in the long run.
@Arkane
Echoing what Silent said, if the economy is hurt by significant exploits (not this one, which can be easily hotfixed in an afternoon), it almost always will never recover until a significant expansion hits, which alters the market with hundreds of new items. By then, you may have lost a significant amount of your player base.
Economy surges can significantly ruin the game for all future potential players. If every other player is running around with the best items in the game because they had 1 billion credits to spend, you would be less inclined to have fun getting better gear, or everyone you grouped with would just easily one shot other players in PVP, or in PVE Dungeons - it would suck all the fun out of the game in just about every facet of it, and affects pretty much everything involving player interaction - in short, it can take the entire MMO part out of the MMO.
While I do not agree with Bioware/EA's handling of the situation, it is a real thing, and I think way too many people don't take the time to research even a bit about MMOs before dismissing the entire genre.
Echoing what Silent said, if the economy is hurt by significant exploits (not this one, which can be easily hotfixed in an afternoon), it almost always will never recover until a significant expansion hits, which alters the market with hundreds of new items. By then, you may have lost a significant amount of your player base.
Economy surges can significantly ruin the game for all future potential players. If every other player is running around with the best items in the game because they had 1 billion credits to spend, you would be less inclined to have fun getting better gear, or everyone you grouped with would just easily one shot other players in PVP, or in PVE Dungeons - it would suck all the fun out of the game in just about every facet of it, and affects pretty much everything involving player interaction - in short, it can take the entire MMO part out of the MMO.
While I do not agree with Bioware/EA's handling of the situation, it is a real thing, and I think way too many people don't take the time to research even a bit about MMOs before dismissing the entire genre.
This is the kind of crap that got me to quit playing MMOs for good. The worst part about any MMO is the other players.
Why doesn't Bioware just change things so low level characters can't go to Ilum or get loot that have too high levels?
haha yeah maybe you should just become a Sith if you "cheat". Banning people for this is silly as these poor souls are already having the disposition to play these yawn fests. Patch it dont smack your paying customers around for exploiting something you put in the game.
@Silent
Should they ban gold farmers? If yes you agree with the bans. If no your first statement doesn't make sense.
They banned those who were selling gold to other players. How they got the gold happened to be this exploit but really shouldn't factor in.
Should they ban gold farmers? If yes you agree with the bans. If no your first statement doesn't make sense.
They banned those who were selling gold to other players. How they got the gold happened to be this exploit but really shouldn't factor in.
Thanks Magna. I dislike when people put the blame on the players when its something the developers should be anticipating, and making sure they prevent it from happening. A simple look at what Blizzard has been doing with WoW would have given them exactly the kind of lock-out system they need. Just put a massive mob on the chest. Done.
@ww3pl: Sorry but no. In MMORPGs a ban is permanent, a suspension is temporary.
As Reid correctly said in the forum post (that Sterling sourced): "They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits."
Funny how he sources someone but changes the terms around to sound more sensationalistic, isn't it?
As Reid correctly said in the forum post (that Sterling sourced): "They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits."
Funny how he sources someone but changes the terms around to sound more sensationalistic, isn't it?
To all those including Jim questioning if they are going to take any action to make this "exploit" not be usable.
They are.
"Some adjustments will be made to Ilum in the near future to discourage future exploits. However, the planet is still open to anyone who wishes to travel there."
-Stephen Reid | Senior Online Community Manager
They are.
"Some adjustments will be made to Ilum in the near future to discourage future exploits. However, the planet is still open to anyone who wishes to travel there."
-Stephen Reid | Senior Online Community Manager
Sounds like something the developers need to fix, not penalize the players for. It's against the rules to make money in the most efficient way possible? WTF? That's just moronic. Of course playing Dragon Age 2 right now I can see first-hand how lazy these dev's are. Thought I got turned around and ended up back where I started from, but no - they just used the same three rooms over and over and over and called it a level.
@Msuvivi
The article says:
"If a player does this too many times (and I should point out in fairness that the banned parties do this a lot), they will get their account suspended for potentially damaging the game's economy".
Nothing about selling gold. Just the act of looting. "Threatening" the economy, as Bioware put it, in the original article.
Solution - issue a warning via email (like Blizzard), and hotfix the issue.
The article says:
"If a player does this too many times (and I should point out in fairness that the banned parties do this a lot), they will get their account suspended for potentially damaging the game's economy".
Nothing about selling gold. Just the act of looting. "Threatening" the economy, as Bioware put it, in the original article.
Solution - issue a warning via email (like Blizzard), and hotfix the issue.
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