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Today I had the rare honor of not only attending a Supreme Court argument, but also spending an hour and a half with Justice Scalia, the Court's second most senior Associate Justice.

Those of you who are familiar with American jurisprudence are probably familiar with Justice Scalia's reputation as an extremely conservative justice who is a strict originalist when it comes to constitutional interpretation. For those that are unfamiliar with the different schools of thought in constitutional interpretation, originalist believe that the terms of the United States Constitution should be interpreted as they were intended at the time they were ratified. The critical question asked by originalist is, "What would a reasonable person at the time of ratification have understood these words to mean?" (For a look at opposing schools of thought Google "interpretivists" and/or "living Constitution.")

While the bulk of my time with Justice Scalia was focused on matters that are probably largely uninteresting to Destructoid readers, I did take this rare opportunity to ask the Justice his feelings concerning recent state videogame legislation. In particular, I asked him whether as an originalist he believed that state laws banning the sale of mature videogames to minors ran afoul of the First Amendment.

Hit the jump to see what the Justice had to say.

In his most succinct reply of the day, Justice Scalia replied that he did believe such legislation could be constitutional. He began by explaining his belief that sound constitutional precedent holds that minors may be subjected to prohibitions that adults are not -- he instantly drew the parallel to regulation of pornography sales. However, Justice Scalia emphasized that unprotected speech, such as obscenity, which he was unwilling to define for reasons that are immediately evident to any constitutional scholar, can be prohibited from sale regardless of the purchaser's age. I think the important thing to note here is that Justice Scalia did not suggest that violent and/or sexual content in games rises to the level of unprotected speech. In fact, he did not even suggest that videogames themselves are not protected by the First Amendment despite his strict originalist beliefs.

The implications of Justice Scalia's answers are multi-dimensional. First, he suggests that upon appeal to the Supreme Court, at least one of the nine justices would affirm state laws that ban the sale of mature-rated games to minors. Second, his remarks suggest Justice Scalia believes that videogames not qualifying as obscenity (defined in a note following this article) are protected by the First Amendment.

Essentially, this seems to mean that one of nine Supreme Court justices believes the sale of mature games to minors can be regulated, but that the overall regulation of the medium would most likely be unconstitutional.

Mind you, Destructoid readers, that such a holding would not place a ban on parents buying mature games for their children; it would simply prevent minors from buying the games on their own and would leave parents to be parents. It is important to note that several lower state and federal courts are in disagreement with Justice Scalia. In particular, an opinion penned by Richard Posner, a judge I hold in the highest regard, as well as opinions penned by numerous other Circuit Courts have held that the government cannot prevent minors access to mature arcade games or from purchasing mature-rated console titles. What does the Destructoid community think? And, on the off chance that I am able to speak with another judge this year, what types of questions would you be interested in asking?

Note on "obscentiy": The current test for obscenity was established in Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15 (1973), and is typically referred to as The Miller Test. The test sets forth three prongs that must be satisfied in order for a work to be considered obscene. The three prongs are: (1) Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, (2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions as defined by applicable state law, and (3) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, and scientific value.

Ed. Note: As this article has been gaining a lot of attention, I think it is important to make a few clarifications. First, despite Justice Scalia’s belief that videogame laws banning the sale of mature games to minors could be Constitutional, there are many other factors that could change his mind. American jurisprudence is firmly grounded in the idea that suits are decided on a case-by-case basis and a generalized response in an informal conversation is hardly the definitive answer. Second, as my language suggests, much of the latter half of this article is conjecture based on how Justice Scalia answered the question. Take that for what it’s worth.

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54 comments | showing # 1 to 50

UMF Skibum's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:47
UMF Skibum
Post is, as Chad would say, AMAZING. Great writeup, and good on you for asking him about video game legislation. While it isn't a surprise given Scalia's past opinions regarding speech and the First Amendment, it is both interesting and valuable to our community as a whole to have heard his opinion on the matter.
BigPopaGamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:47
BigPopaGamer
Wow that is very interesting Panda. Pretty neat you got an interview with Justica Scalia.

I have no questions at this time your honor.
king3vbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:47
king3vbo
Very interesting (Im a huge political science nerd), but thats the kind of response that I would expect, even from a Supreme Court Judge as conservative as Scalia.
Excremento's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:47
Excremento
Damn good read, but nothing too surprising from Scalia, he's pulled a few gaffs in his speech. Taking into effect his personal philosophies towards just about anything questionable...really its not surprising at all.

I can only hope that the other 8 justices are a bit less restrictive in their frame of mind. I can put money down that Scalia has probably never even played a game.
B-Radicate's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:48
B-Radicate
Wow. This is possibly the most scholarly of cblogs I've ever seen.

Great little write up. You should feel honored to have been given the chance to speak with him and ask some questions. I feel special knowing his opinion on the matter, haha.
UMF Skibum's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:49
UMF Skibum
Although I think you may have meant to say "... state laws banning the sale of mature-rated video games to minors games ran afoul of the First Amendment." Unless I'm reading it incorrectly.
Conrad Zimmerman's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:50
Conrad Zimmerman
It's incredibly cool that you had the opportunity to talk to him, let alone ask him about this issue. Thank you for sharing it.

My opposition towards legislating the sale of M-rated video games to children lies not with the purpose of the law. I believe that there is content in some video games that is wholly inappropriate for people below a certain level of maturity and they should be prevented from exposure to this media.

Where I take issue is with a governing body mandating said prevention. The burden of responsibility for the raising of our children lies with their parents (or legal guardian), not with the state. Laws such as these punish companies and individuals for something that can clearly be defined as a paternal obligation to the well-being and integration of a child in society.

In addition, laws such as these can open the door to new legislation or reinterpretation that further restricts the rights of citizens. The less of these laws that take right and responsibility away from its citizens, the better we'll all be for it.
Cowzilla3's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:52
Cowzilla3
Your titles are always so suncint and sexy...

That is frickin awesome that you spoke it him and I agree that regulating the sale of games to minors is heavily needed I just wish that stores and ratings board would take more responsibility for it and taht parents would pay more attention. Still good to hear that he realizes you can't restrict violent game sale all over the place.

Now i have to go not care about the law.
flaming burrito's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 15:55
flaming burrito
Great post

How did you manage to land an interview with Justice Scalia?
Jetsetlemming's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 16:14
Jetsetlemming
@ UMF Skibum
"Although I think you may have meant to say "... state laws banning the sale of mature-rated video games to minors games ran afoul of the First Amendment." Unless I'm reading it incorrectly."
No, the legal precedent for banning or prohibiting obscenity does not at all come with a minimum age requirement. The Miller V California case wasn't because they were selling porn to children. :P There in in fact legal precedent in America, for an outright ban of certain kinds of media (and some already in place, such as child pornography).
Of course, thankfully in its current form it's enacted to nowhere near the extent of England, Germany, or Australia.
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 16:36
Sharpless
I have to say, I agree with him. I don't have any problem with them regulating the sale of games to minors, just so long as they don't regulate games for the general public. Seems reasonable to me.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 16:45
MaxVest
Just think of the questions you could have asked instead.

I tend to agree with Posner (7th Cir. represent!), but his opinion in American Amusement v. Kendrick doesn't appear to provide much cover. Posner argued that Indiana was trying to regulate violent games on the grounds that they were psychologically harmful, requiring a showing of proof. But the reasoning of the opinion seems to concede that games with violent scenes that "turn the stomach" of the average community member could be banned by analogy to obscenity laws.

The public might not find the original House of the Dead stomach-turning because it is not realistic. But Posner suggests that a photo of a person being decapitated would be considered obscene material. Sounds a little like Manhunt 2 to me.
Samit Sarkar's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 16:52
Samit Sarkar
Wow, you spent an hour and a half with a Supreme Court justice? That’s amazing, man, and I’m glad that you were able to ask his opinion of video games. I agree with him, too — as far as I know, most major retailers have policies against selling M-rated games to minors (hell, Blockbuster carded me when I wanted to rent MGS 2). And again, it wouldn’t forbid adults from buying those games, so maybe parents would actually, you know, do some parenting here and there.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 17:07
MaxVest
IIRC, one of the main objections to laws restricting the sale of games to minors is that currently a private body (ESRB) is assigning content ratings to games on a voluntary basis. To give legal force to the ESRB's content rating would effectively give the ESRB the power of censorship without the organization being accountable to the public, and is considered an impermissible delegation of governmental authority.

But it seems like there a few legal types here who will correct me if I err.
Dexter345's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 18:01
Dexter345
Very interesting. I personally take no issue with the prohibition of sale of mature themed content to minors, so long as regulation of the industry as a whole is still considered unconstitutional.

On the other hand, I can remember a time when a sixteen year old Dexter bought Grand Theft Auto III, and I would have been indignant at the time if I couldn't play it.

Perhaps it could be argued that it holds at least some artistic merit?
BlackSunEmpire's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 18:06
BlackSunEmpire
Interesting blog.

Is this part of your studies??

I'd say most people who spend an hour and a half in a room with a supreme justice wouldn't be asking many questions.
El Guapo's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 18:34
El Guapo
Wow, informative. I agree that it wouldn't be bad to restrict the sale of M-rated games, if it forces parents to pay more attention to what their kids are doing (assuming a kid would ask their parent to buy the game for them not just some older friend) it would be a good thing. Thanks for getting his opinion and sharing it with us.
boatorious's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/19/2008 20:52
boatorious
Wow, great blog.

It does kind of impress upon you the importance of electing good public officials instead of hoping that the courts will give you the decision you want.
Gameboi's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/20/2008 10:05
Gameboi
Very good read. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Joseph Leray's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/20/2008 14:10
Joseph Leray
Awesome job! Like HPanda, Dex, and Sharpless, I'm not in any way opposed to a law prohibiting the sale of M or A games to minors. We do the same with pornography and, in some places, R-rated movies, so I'm all aboard. That being said, no game should *ever* be prohibited from the general (adult) public.
HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/20/2008 16:48
HarassmentPanda
This story was recently picked up and published by AOL Joystiq, GamePolitics, The Progress & Freedom Foundation, The Technology Liberation Front, and numerous others... thanks for the support guys.
HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/20/2008 17:32
HarassmentPanda
Add Kotaku to the list.
Aerox's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/20/2008 21:14
Aerox
I think this might be the most well written community blog currently on Dtoid. Awesome job.
Y0j1mb0's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:20
Y0j1mb0
Good Stuff Bro..and good read.
Gameboi's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:23
Gameboi
@HarassmentPanda

*chuckles* We get the hint.
that1dood's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:35
that1dood
Fantastic write up. The fact that you got to personally speak with Justice Scalia is exciting, to say the least.

I actually look forward to the day when a law like this is passed. Restricting minors from getting their hands on M-rated games would be fantastic. It would not only put the ball in parent's court, but it would also prohibit (to a certain degree) jokers like Jack Thompson from placing all blame for some child's juvenile behavior solely on video games. It would force parent's to take responsibility and play an active role in monitoring the content their children view.
Dexter345's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:38
Dexter345
On the other hand, I would also feel a bit cheated if video games were given this treatment, but movies and music were not. Where is the line drawn?
Fuzzy's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:40
Fuzzy
Nice job HP. Fantastic that you were able to get face time with a justice, and a wonderful writeup. I'm agreeing with Aerox here. This may be the best cblog I've ever read.

Next time throw a curve ball to a judge: How do they feel about gay marriage in video games? Obscenity or FA protected?
MechaMonkey's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:43
MechaMonkey
Fantastic job, HP. You've had a very busy day, haven't you?
Upgrayedd's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 13:48
Upgrayedd
Wow. Great read!

Just curious, how exactly did you get to attend the hearing and talk with Justice Scalia.
king3vbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 14:08
king3vbo
Props to the Panda!
grrza's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 14:16
grrza
As everyone else has already said: very interesting. I typically find myself in at least some disagreement with Scalia, but this is very reasonable and even-handed of him. Nice write up!
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 14:40
Mxyzptlk
Awesome that you got to sit and talk with him! Although personally I think that restricting sales to minors should not be made into law. Practically every retailer out there already cards for M rated games as part of their policy, and beyond that parents should be taking responsibility to know what their kids are playing. The government should not have any role in it.
moot button's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:22
moot button
personally i think that the game industry should be held to the same standards as the film industry when it comes to ratings, AND distribution. This goes for all aspects of the ratings. Mass Effect for instance, in movie form, would have only been rated PG-13, and a 13 year old could purchase a ticket to it without parental permission. God of War, however, with its sexy sexy lovin' mini-game would be equivalent to an R-rated film (bare nipples + violence = R generally). A parent can accompany their minor to an R-rated film with no flags raised, so should they be able to purchase a M-rated game. The game however is an interactive experience, and the responsibilities of the parent follows them home. They must make sure that the minor recieves the experience in the mature way intended, and that they feel their child is ready for the freedom of mature thought, and expression.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:25
Holyetheline
Hell yeah dude, I loved the insight you gave into our legal system. Great blog!
JonDarkwood's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:25
JonDarkwood
Parents would be left to be parents, so essentially video game legislation would be redundant to the changes that have already been happening, right?
Crapsh00t's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:33
Crapsh00t
Best C-Blog ever. "Unprotected speech" is a immensely interesting aspect of constitutional studies, because to your average citizen seems to run against something that is taken as integral to the American legal system.

Fantastic writeup, how did you find yourself conversing with a Justice?
HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:39
HarassmentPanda
Here's an excerpt from a GamePolitics interview in order to save me some time typing up how I met Scalia:

I’m a law student in Washington, DC and I have a professor who has been friends with Justice Scalia for a long time. He set up an appointment for a small group of us (around 20 or so) to watch a Supreme Court argument followed by a private audience with Justice Scalia in the Supreme Court’s west conference room.

It was a great opportunity considering there were so few of us and Scalia doesn’t typically do “interviews”--he’s notoriously critical of turning the Court into “entertainment.” Being an avid gamer and occasional blogger, I decided to take the opportunity to ask him about gaming legislation.

He was surprisingly friendly and humorous. Living in DC all you typically hear are Scalia horror stories, but I was surprised how down to earth he was.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:48
MaxVest
@HarassmentPanda: I agree with your note on Scalia, although I didn't meet with him in as intimate a setting as you. The thing that cracks me up is how he and Ginsburg are good buddies and go on vacations together. There's a picture of them both sitting on an elephant on India, looking like little kids.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:56
MaxVest
Ahh, here we go:

HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 15:57
HarassmentPanda
@MaxVest

Hahaha, that is fantastic! Can someone please change that to the main picture for this blog?
MrPeenie's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 16:14
MrPeenie
I came to deal a bit with legal issues in some of my studies, plus while studying Judith Butler in regard to hate speech (Im a would be Sociologist). But what seems to be the "american approach" to legal issues, feels a bit odd to me (Constitution equals second bible?). How could possibly be interpreting consitution as it was intend to be adequate? Societies change, possibilities, conditions and norms of action change, why shouldnt legal rules change?
Is there any scale to rate a subject on the different dimensions of the "Miller Test", especially point (3)?
Necros's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 16:19
Necros
This is a fascinating look at the nuances of what a few sentences can really mean. Thanks for bringing it up, HP.
MaxVest's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 16:20
MaxVest
@HarassmentPanda: The portion I cropped and re-hosted is actually from a picture taken of Justice Ginsburg's office; you can take the virtual tour here.

Did I just violate the copyright of a Supreme Court Justice? Or at least the person who took the photo? Let's hope I have a good fair use defense...
HarassmentPanda's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 16:28
HarassmentPanda
@MaxVest

Let's just hope you're protected by the anonymity of the Internet... that seems much easier.
Eschatos's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 17:31
Eschatos
They can't stop kids from getting porn, and they can't stop kids from getting games. Just give up now.
Churchhills Dog's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 17:38
Churchhills Dog
If a Judge like Scalia were to hand down a decision that made it constitutional to limit the sale of games to kids then I think I could live with it knowing that it was argued and decided in a completely rational manner and not from a standpoint of fear and lack of understanding. It's the hysterical reactions of mainstream politicians looking to score quick points with a clueless public that rankles me more than anything.
Ritalin Twitch's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 18:24
Ritalin Twitch
Let me add some to the love bandwagon, it is nice to see something informative and well written when I scroll through the front page. Regardless about how you feel about the laws or their interpretation, if gamers are going to have a political voice in regard to the issues that affect them there needs to be an understanding of the system and its workings. Understanding is the first step to being an engine of social change.

Now that the smart guy has said something, I'm sure we can get back to the angry, impotent bleating about Fox news and Jack Thompson.
Im OK's Avatar - Comment posted on 02/22/2008 19:10
Im OK
As I said in one of the big Jack Thompson brouhaha threads, I wouldn't be against a law that fines retailers or otherwise prohibits the sale of M- or AO-rated games to minors. I mean, the ratings system is already in place and most people seem to agree that it's a pretty good one, so maybe it's about time it had some legal teeth to it? I don't know, I'm not necessarily saying that it should happen, just that if it ever does happen, I wouldn't be violently opposed to it. At any rate, if nothing else, such a law would go a long way to finally shutting the Jack Thompsons of the world the fuck up, at least until they found some other aspect of video gaming to "piss and moan" about.

However, if such a law ever does get passed, that law had better cover R-rated and "Unrated" movies and music with "Parental Advisory Explicit Content" in them as well as the video games, or they damn well better have a similar law in the works that does so, otherwise it would, once again, be unfairly targeting video games over the other forms of media, which seems to be a popular pastime lately with the Jackholes of the world.
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