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Question 1 - Can Jonathan review a Soulja Boy song please?
Question 2 - Why are big publishers still scared of original Games despite the success of games like braid, minecraft, journey, meatboy etc?
Question 2 - Why are big publishers still scared of original Games despite the success of games like braid, minecraft, journey, meatboy etc?
I'm really interested in seeing this interview. Braid is a very special game for me, and I want to see how Blow is himself after hearing all the stuff people say about him.
And I see you're not budging on the whole "art game" thing then Holmes.
And I see you're not budging on the whole "art game" thing then Holmes.
I have an few linked art game question. Is the strength of the video game media to give players interactivity and control pulling the player into the experience? I always thought that was the strength of the media. Then why do so many "art games" force feed you the creators vision making the experience if not the game so linear?
It seems to me that a lot of the developers who make these kind of games do not understand what makes Zelda or Mega Man X so special. Great painters study and understand the greats before them, as do great musicians. Not understanding what is powerful and important about the way the media works is what brings us things like singing greeting cards. Nobody wants that.
It seems to me that a lot of the developers who make these kind of games do not understand what makes Zelda or Mega Man X so special. Great painters study and understand the greats before them, as do great musicians. Not understanding what is powerful and important about the way the media works is what brings us things like singing greeting cards. Nobody wants that.
Anyone else read that article about Jonathan Blow in The Atlantic? It painted him as an odd and introverted fellow. I'm curious what Blow thought about that article, or if he's even read it. Who am I kidding? He's read it.
It seems to me that story and concept are often created before gameplay. For big developers,it looks like they create an IP and flesh out the world first. The "art game" crowd appears to develop a vision and then flesh out the gameplay. Developers big and small, when interviewed, tend to talk about their game world or the vision they are trying to bring than the gameplay itself. I think this tail wagging the dog has lead to our current limited amount of genres. Thoughts?
Question- I played braid, but to tell you the truth I did not find the "atomic bomb" metafore. After searching on the internet I found someomnes explanation, and, it seems, in order to understand the game I would need to know many books I've never heard before. Don't you think using quotes and metaphores from other medias, which player very likely never read/played/heard of is making the communication via game harder rather then easier? Or is it part of the puzzle?
Sorry for long question :(
Sorry for long question :(
@Spamfish
Braid, Minecraft and SMB are not original games. They're clones of existing games but with different skins.
Braid, Minecraft and SMB are not original games. They're clones of existing games but with different skins.
@Spamfish
Braid, Minecraft and SMB are not original games. They're clones of existing games but with different skins.
Braid, Minecraft and SMB are not original games. They're clones of existing games but with different skins.
As someone who has played Braid several times through, I still don't feel like I've "got it". I wonder if this has something to do with the nature of the work being nebulous and subjective, like for example the films of David Lynch or the writing of David Foster Wallace; with the idea of the experience depending on the user/reader and the subjective experiences they carry.
Is it even possible to give some concrete explanation of "the meaning" of Braid?
Is it even possible to give some concrete explanation of "the meaning" of Braid?
(sorry for this bad english)
I guess Braid does not obviously been designed with success (I know they are required to release a game on xboxlive), but the last success that demand to end the game in 45 minutes intrigues me.
Why did you choose to provide such a challenge in the game?
Braid is a game where I really enjoyed taking my time, just walk trought the levels and search for the hidden stars (I have not yet found all of them ^ ^). Try the speedrun was interesting, but in my case game was never particularly a matter of reflexes, or continuous concatenation of situations without a break possibility.
Are we may consider ending the game in 45 minutes is independent of the experience offered by the game the first time we played?
Do we find this kind of stuff in The Witness or this was just about Braid specificaly ?
I guess Braid does not obviously been designed with success (I know they are required to release a game on xboxlive), but the last success that demand to end the game in 45 minutes intrigues me.
Why did you choose to provide such a challenge in the game?
Braid is a game where I really enjoyed taking my time, just walk trought the levels and search for the hidden stars (I have not yet found all of them ^ ^). Try the speedrun was interesting, but in my case game was never particularly a matter of reflexes, or continuous concatenation of situations without a break possibility.
Are we may consider ending the game in 45 minutes is independent of the experience offered by the game the first time we played?
Do we find this kind of stuff in The Witness or this was just about Braid specificaly ?
No offense Holmes, mostly because I really did try VERY hard to be open minded about both what you had to say, and about Blow himself, but I couldn't watch this interview (which I came in pretty late to it seemed -damn housework) for longer then 5 minutes without turning it off and saying "it figures".
In the segment I caught you did nothing but intermittently stroke his ego while mentioning another indie game to him, while promptly chucking it aside at the first inclination that he had no clue what you were talking about (Also, nice job speaking for the dev of that game by saying you bet he wished his game was better, but you liked it. That was classy.).
Then, very soon later, while talking about story in games, Blow precedes to basically speak for the masses ("People don't like story") while contradicting himself (The whole bit about Valve, Half-life, and developers wanting to be in control of their games, to the tune that players should have control --- Then saying, basically, "I don't know why I gave people a choice [talking about story], I hate story"). After which you basically put words into his mouth ("Well, you had a story in you, and you wanted to get it out.")
That is when I stopped watching, because you basically reached out of my speakers in one fell swoop and hit pause. When you couldn't let him talk through how contradictory he was being, or really try to get to the bottom of that, and had to give him an out, the interview, for however little time it had been for me, was over.
If Blow couldn't figure out why he felt, in hindsight, there needed to be a story at all in Braid, or why he was putting in the option of a story at all into The Witness, he definitely wasn't going to find the inside with you feeding him words. And if he couldn't figure out why he put a story in that game at all, a story that's still confusing a whole mess of people out there, that he simply won't come forward and put to rest (unless he did somewhere else in this interview) instead of attacking people for trying to find the answers, then I can't possibly find myself being turned over to the side that calls him a genius any time soon.
The answer to his confusion is probably this: plenty of people out there still play for story, probably far more then those who play for the sake of art. If he didn't have a story, if it didn't have this vague mystery surrounding the events of the game, it wouldn't have sold the way it did, on the word of mouth that started with the story (personal story: I heard about the story, still hear about the story, way more then I've ever heard about how good the gameplay or art is. Even after having played the game quite a few times myself. So Take that how you will). It just felt like he didn't want to admit that, because he doesn't like story, and I have an inkling that its because he probably doesn't fancy himself a writer, which leaves me also thinking he's against collaborating with one -playing to his ego.
While I'm only taking this in the context that I saw it, in the scant few minutes I saw it, this was a poor interview. You should never put words into someones mouth like that. You seem like an awesome guy, who I think I'd be good friends with if we were to actually talk or meet, but I don't know, I really try to like what you do and it always goes in the opposite direction, and I hate that it does.
As for Blow, he didn't come off as pretentious as I figured he may, but he was greatly nudging that line. But I also don't think he got over it while I was viewing, if he was ever going to, simply because you were kind of getting in the way. As for figuring out someones genius, this did nothing to sway me from saying that 1 game and an upcoming game that few have seen, doesn't make someone genius, as it hardly even plays to consistency. Even if The Witness is a great game too, he has a few more to go before we can really slap a title that's taken some people in the industry decades to get.
The fact that he can't see that, or chooses to gloss it over in order to adhere to this image of himself, is a real hit to his "genius" in my book. And certainly doesn't make me believe he gets video games any more then some of the other developers out there.
In the segment I caught you did nothing but intermittently stroke his ego while mentioning another indie game to him, while promptly chucking it aside at the first inclination that he had no clue what you were talking about (Also, nice job speaking for the dev of that game by saying you bet he wished his game was better, but you liked it. That was classy.).
Then, very soon later, while talking about story in games, Blow precedes to basically speak for the masses ("People don't like story") while contradicting himself (The whole bit about Valve, Half-life, and developers wanting to be in control of their games, to the tune that players should have control --- Then saying, basically, "I don't know why I gave people a choice [talking about story], I hate story"). After which you basically put words into his mouth ("Well, you had a story in you, and you wanted to get it out.")
That is when I stopped watching, because you basically reached out of my speakers in one fell swoop and hit pause. When you couldn't let him talk through how contradictory he was being, or really try to get to the bottom of that, and had to give him an out, the interview, for however little time it had been for me, was over.
If Blow couldn't figure out why he felt, in hindsight, there needed to be a story at all in Braid, or why he was putting in the option of a story at all into The Witness, he definitely wasn't going to find the inside with you feeding him words. And if he couldn't figure out why he put a story in that game at all, a story that's still confusing a whole mess of people out there, that he simply won't come forward and put to rest (unless he did somewhere else in this interview) instead of attacking people for trying to find the answers, then I can't possibly find myself being turned over to the side that calls him a genius any time soon.
The answer to his confusion is probably this: plenty of people out there still play for story, probably far more then those who play for the sake of art. If he didn't have a story, if it didn't have this vague mystery surrounding the events of the game, it wouldn't have sold the way it did, on the word of mouth that started with the story (personal story: I heard about the story, still hear about the story, way more then I've ever heard about how good the gameplay or art is. Even after having played the game quite a few times myself. So Take that how you will). It just felt like he didn't want to admit that, because he doesn't like story, and I have an inkling that its because he probably doesn't fancy himself a writer, which leaves me also thinking he's against collaborating with one -playing to his ego.
While I'm only taking this in the context that I saw it, in the scant few minutes I saw it, this was a poor interview. You should never put words into someones mouth like that. You seem like an awesome guy, who I think I'd be good friends with if we were to actually talk or meet, but I don't know, I really try to like what you do and it always goes in the opposite direction, and I hate that it does.
As for Blow, he didn't come off as pretentious as I figured he may, but he was greatly nudging that line. But I also don't think he got over it while I was viewing, if he was ever going to, simply because you were kind of getting in the way. As for figuring out someones genius, this did nothing to sway me from saying that 1 game and an upcoming game that few have seen, doesn't make someone genius, as it hardly even plays to consistency. Even if The Witness is a great game too, he has a few more to go before we can really slap a title that's taken some people in the industry decades to get.
The fact that he can't see that, or chooses to gloss it over in order to adhere to this image of himself, is a real hit to his "genius" in my book. And certainly doesn't make me believe he gets video games any more then some of the other developers out there.
Blow is trash. The fact Soulja boy can debunk his game proves this. Blow is shit and so are his games, with all the other indy junk that do nothing for gaming while spewing shit on groups of people that do actually make good games (including a whole country, Japan) and who are far better then them. They are celebrities for the retards in a retarded community. One that Destructoid constantly encourages by giving good review scores to the most horrid examples of video games.
@Spamfish
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
@person with the Seinfeld avatar
Soulja Boy did about as much debunking as your post did thought-provoking. Retards in a retarded community? Nice.
ANYWAYS
Holmes, the interview was excellent, fuck all these haters. Your questions were excellent and you both had great things to say. Thank you!
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
@person with the Seinfeld avatar
Soulja Boy did about as much debunking as your post did thought-provoking. Retards in a retarded community? Nice.
ANYWAYS
Holmes, the interview was excellent, fuck all these haters. Your questions were excellent and you both had great things to say. Thank you!
@BoomingEchoes- Well thought out comment. You're putting words in our mouths a bit too though, particularly where you say "plenty of people out there still play for story, probably far more then those who play for the sake of art". Neither of us ever said that there is any difference between playing for art and for story. Stories are art, right?
God, the whole "art" thing really has to go.
Anyway, we started this conversation by talking about how a lot of people hold people like Jonathan and myself up on a pedestal, and when we don't say or do exactly what they think we should do, people get hostile towards because "we failed them". That's when we start getting called pretentious or trash whatever, when we didn't say the things that other people think we should say, or do things that people thought we were supposed to do.
I know I've fallen into that way of feeling before, specifically, I've felt that way towards Jonathan Blow. He has said stuff that I thought was "wrong" in, and I felt hostile towards him because of it. I wanted him to be smarter and better, because I know he's important in the industry and I want the industry's important people to say things that I think are smart and better.
Upon a little further thought though, I realized there is absolutely no reason to feel hostile towards someone who is just trying to engage in conversation about something, and that's all Jonathan Blow (and I) am trying to do. Jonathan Blow has said some smart things. He's said some not smart things. He'd be the first to admit that. Personally, I think he's got some really well thought out and interesting things to say, and I'm happy to talk with him, regardless of if he is totally spot on all the time or not.
You may not like everything we have to say, or like how we say it. We don't necessarily like what we say or how we say it either! We're just human beings, trying our best to talk to each other. If you assess this live, unrehearsed, unedited "show" between two strangers on that level, I think you may feel a little less hostile towards what we're trying to do here.
But if you don't enjoy it, don't watch it! I wont be offended. I appreciate you giving it a chance in the first place, but definitely move on if my style of doing things just doesn't entertain or interest you.
God, the whole "art" thing really has to go.
Anyway, we started this conversation by talking about how a lot of people hold people like Jonathan and myself up on a pedestal, and when we don't say or do exactly what they think we should do, people get hostile towards because "we failed them". That's when we start getting called pretentious or trash whatever, when we didn't say the things that other people think we should say, or do things that people thought we were supposed to do.
I know I've fallen into that way of feeling before, specifically, I've felt that way towards Jonathan Blow. He has said stuff that I thought was "wrong" in, and I felt hostile towards him because of it. I wanted him to be smarter and better, because I know he's important in the industry and I want the industry's important people to say things that I think are smart and better.
Upon a little further thought though, I realized there is absolutely no reason to feel hostile towards someone who is just trying to engage in conversation about something, and that's all Jonathan Blow (and I) am trying to do. Jonathan Blow has said some smart things. He's said some not smart things. He'd be the first to admit that. Personally, I think he's got some really well thought out and interesting things to say, and I'm happy to talk with him, regardless of if he is totally spot on all the time or not.
You may not like everything we have to say, or like how we say it. We don't necessarily like what we say or how we say it either! We're just human beings, trying our best to talk to each other. If you assess this live, unrehearsed, unedited "show" between two strangers on that level, I think you may feel a little less hostile towards what we're trying to do here.
But if you don't enjoy it, don't watch it! I wont be offended. I appreciate you giving it a chance in the first place, but definitely move on if my style of doing things just doesn't entertain or interest you.
@ youngreezy
What Soulja boy did was outline how bad the game is, there is no challenge in it. Do you see Soulja boy laughing at Prince of Persia? I'm not trying to claim Soulja boy as an authority, but the fact that this random guy can laugh at the premise of this game, and no one can debunk himm reveals how SHIT gaming culture of shit websites like this has gotten. There is also no challenge in creating low-brow puzzle games. It was a glorified flash game, the fact that Blow made it himself with someone on art confirms this. Without the art he could have posted it on Newgrounds and it may have been popular for a fortnight.
BRB playing MW3 just to piss off artfags like Blow.
What Soulja boy did was outline how bad the game is, there is no challenge in it. Do you see Soulja boy laughing at Prince of Persia? I'm not trying to claim Soulja boy as an authority, but the fact that this random guy can laugh at the premise of this game, and no one can debunk himm reveals how SHIT gaming culture of shit websites like this has gotten. There is also no challenge in creating low-brow puzzle games. It was a glorified flash game, the fact that Blow made it himself with someone on art confirms this. Without the art he could have posted it on Newgrounds and it may have been popular for a fortnight.
BRB playing MW3 just to piss off artfags like Blow.
Soulja Boy didn't get it at all. It would have been the same if he played Zelda and only killed chickens and then criticized the game on that basis.
@ninjalegend
Sorry dude, but you can't get more linear than zelda.
BUT I think you meant to say that some of these games take control away from the player to tell a story, and I agree that's not my kind of game, but braid is not one of those either.
Actually, the most brilliant part about braid is the gameplay.
The "art game" is a bad name for me, some of these would be better called as abstract games or something along those lines while other feel like "storytell games", but thats just names. It will probably fall when EA anounces their first "art indie game" and someone comes up with a better name.
Sorry dude, but you can't get more linear than zelda.
BUT I think you meant to say that some of these games take control away from the player to tell a story, and I agree that's not my kind of game, but braid is not one of those either.
Actually, the most brilliant part about braid is the gameplay.
The "art game" is a bad name for me, some of these would be better called as abstract games or something along those lines while other feel like "storytell games", but thats just names. It will probably fall when EA anounces their first "art indie game" and someone comes up with a better name.
Wow is this show always this great? I guess I should start tuning in and find out. That was enthralling.
After reading through the comments, I really wish some of you had paid more attention to the part early on where they discussed some possibilities where that hostile, shooting from the hip, reaction comes from. I will be keeping it in mind myself, as I have been guilty of it far too many times.
@holmes
This was the first time I watched the show, as you have been the target of those "alpha dog" reactions on my part in the past. I'm glad I watched it though as it lead to some introspection that I hope I will be able to carry forward.
If my initial reaction to something someone says is hostility, I need to consider why. In the past I would simply channel that hostility into angry and unproductive "debate" to prove I was right. That reaction only serves to dig a trench between views where no understanding or compromise can exist.
Again, you have a new fan. Maybe after all this complimenting on your show you can relate to Blow's reaction to your abundance of flattery.
@holmes
This was the first time I watched the show, as you have been the target of those "alpha dog" reactions on my part in the past. I'm glad I watched it though as it lead to some introspection that I hope I will be able to carry forward.
If my initial reaction to something someone says is hostility, I need to consider why. In the past I would simply channel that hostility into angry and unproductive "debate" to prove I was right. That reaction only serves to dig a trench between views where no understanding or compromise can exist.
Again, you have a new fan. Maybe after all this complimenting on your show you can relate to Blow's reaction to your abundance of flattery.
Hey Holmes, can you try to boost the dB or equalize it? I think you and Blow talking at different distances from the webcam/mic causes really sketchy volume levels
The lengths that Jonathan Blow goes to ensure that most story elements and puzzles can be bypassed really paid off for me. I was really glad to see that this was a conscious effort on his part and it makes me respect the man even more.
Playing Braid really intensely for a few days when I first bought it, I didn't really pay much attention to the story, aside from the first series of books.
After this initial run, every few weeks, I would revisit the world of Braid, trying my hand/mind at the puzzles I had not figured out.
When I felt like it, I took the time to read the books. When I was in the right mindset/mood, I focused on the awesome music and ambiance that the game delivered, soaking myself in it.
Eventually, I finished the game and honestly I don't think I'll replay it. I think that this is Braid's greatest strength; I feel like I've had a complete experience. Replaying through it would have no meaning.
Usually, that's a bad sign but the game's 'message', the music and its story still resonate within my head, years after I finished it, which is something that I can't say many games have achieved.
It might sound like commercial suicide to spend so much effort in making sure that the game is not replayable yet it ensures that I'll gladly lay down whatever price Jon asks for 'The witness' and that I'll always speak of Braid with a twinkle in my eye.
Playing Braid really intensely for a few days when I first bought it, I didn't really pay much attention to the story, aside from the first series of books.
After this initial run, every few weeks, I would revisit the world of Braid, trying my hand/mind at the puzzles I had not figured out.
When I felt like it, I took the time to read the books. When I was in the right mindset/mood, I focused on the awesome music and ambiance that the game delivered, soaking myself in it.
Eventually, I finished the game and honestly I don't think I'll replay it. I think that this is Braid's greatest strength; I feel like I've had a complete experience. Replaying through it would have no meaning.
Usually, that's a bad sign but the game's 'message', the music and its story still resonate within my head, years after I finished it, which is something that I can't say many games have achieved.
It might sound like commercial suicide to spend so much effort in making sure that the game is not replayable yet it ensures that I'll gladly lay down whatever price Jon asks for 'The witness' and that I'll always speak of Braid with a twinkle in my eye.
@long john
Sorry, I was typing as fast as I could to get my question in before the show. I wanted to have a chance to have it read aloud, blowing up in my face instead. Grammatically, the question was shit. Yes, however, I was talking about the way you experience the game being linear, not the level design. Some games are so busy making sure you experience what the developer wants you to experience, when they want you to experience it, they sacrifice your interactivity and (I hate this word when talking about games) immersion in the game world. That defeats the strength of the medium, taking what makes video games special away. All in the service of the developer jamming their story/vision/view home. Movies and books are a better conduit if that is all your trying to get across, with the gameplay just tacked on.
Sorry, I was typing as fast as I could to get my question in before the show. I wanted to have a chance to have it read aloud, blowing up in my face instead. Grammatically, the question was shit. Yes, however, I was talking about the way you experience the game being linear, not the level design. Some games are so busy making sure you experience what the developer wants you to experience, when they want you to experience it, they sacrifice your interactivity and (I hate this word when talking about games) immersion in the game world. That defeats the strength of the medium, taking what makes video games special away. All in the service of the developer jamming their story/vision/view home. Movies and books are a better conduit if that is all your trying to get across, with the gameplay just tacked on.
At the end of the show, I think Jonathan Blow mentioned or implied that books don't have a term equivalent to 'art game' ... but actually they do: "Literary fiction"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_fiction
It's a real term; the NYT Book Review people use it often.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_fiction
It's a real term; the NYT Book Review people use it often.
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