Again, we're not there yet, but considering even Soul Calibur has their female leads in... Reasonable clothing this time around, I would say that's progress.
So, your article is not the first about sexism in the video game media, and it won't be the last, but it's certainly well-written, and I do say I love the framing device of Skyrim.
Interesting when you think that game developers and gamers, which are, stereotypically, the kind to least be "masculine" of the male archetype, are still at odds with portraying women in a realistic manner. Maybe just the ignorance in general gets in the way.
As a last thought, games do a disservice to men as a gender, as well (obviously not as much), and GoW3, which you brought up, is a perfect example. Why DIDN'T Marcus cry for his brother-in-arms Dom? He had every right to experience heart-rending sorrow over the loss, and yet, he went right back to being all macho grim-faced.
I still think we're a ways off at realism in our characters when the caricatures market so much better. We'll probably have to rely on the indie folks (YET AGAIN) for helping push the barriers.
This explains a lot about why you write the articles you write.
The nude-patch argument is not valid, it will never be valid, just because someone was to jerk off more than they want to download a more "logical" patch doesn't say anything about their respect towards either sex. Hell, I know gay men who would download that patch, and look at Tara Long in the latest episode of the Dtoid show. But whatever, let's go to your actual argument.
It's true that there's a lack of main rolemodels for female characters in Skyrim, and a lot of other games, and that is a shame. However, we need to remember that Skyrim is largely based on ancient nordic folklore and norse mythology, which if they wish to stay true to the concept is very male-dominant. One could argue that they could have done a better job of making it more contemporary, but I think that was what they were going for, hence the reason for the lack of those character tropes.
As for marketing, well you said it yourself. 42% of gamers are female, that means 58% are male, looking at those numbers it's logical of the marketing department to pick male over female. I personally like that BioWare is going with both for Mass Effect 3, but I've heard arguments that they shouldn't have done that as well, so it's a tough thing to work with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you, quite the opposite, I'm just trying to see it from the eyes of the developer.
Oh, and don't bold the word "Dies" past the spoiler tag, it catches the eye and then the spoiler comes through either way. Just saying.
For the most part, I didn't find the treatment of the females in the game to be too unwarranted. For the Thieves' Guild, Karliah had made a mistake, and was paying the price for it. In terms of the Dark Brotherhood, Astrid's actions were something that I could see any human being doing when put in that situation, regardless of gender. For the Companions, wondering why Aela wasn't made the new leader is a tad misleading, since no one else (male included!) who fit the qualifications was chosen either. And let's not forget that pretty much every Jarl can be ignored, regardless of gender.
And let's not forget that Skyrim is supposed to be YOUR story. YOU are the hero - you, a female! YOUR character is the female role model that the people of Skyrim will look up to. The fact that Bethesda allowed you to write your own story, however which way you wanted it, is, in my opinion, empowerment.
Great read, nonetheless!
isn't the 3rd mass effect doing that?
and I totally agree with men getting the shaft a bit to, I'm so sick of seeing every guy in a game being a "badass" there needs to be a more middle ground for the sexes not every woman should be snivling useless whiner and not every man has to be manly mctufferton who has to do everything and never shows any weakness EVER because he's a MAN
That's what I was thinking, So I decided not to comment. If I did, I would get sexist rants thrown at me left and right. You can't argue with opinion because people are ignorant.
Looks interesting, but really messed up for people who wanted to play the game.
By Sophie Prell.
It must suck to have your life dominated by such pointless concerns. I feel sorry for the politically correct crowd of drones. Life must be one big schlong of offensiveness slapping your face.
Pitiful.
There, corrected it for you.
I have no problem with women wanting to expand themselves in the game market and would love to see them exceed, but that's the key. THEY need to succeed at it. It is not on anyone else's shoulders to do what you want done.
Which I don't count for two reasons:
1) It was originally marketed as male Shep. Femshep was added later, and will only appear on the CE anyway.
2) There was a gigantic hooplah around the vote to decide which Femshep would be on the cover. Which looked the proudest, bravest, strongest, oh wait I'm sorry no. Which looked the *hottest*? You could say that EA couldn't control that people voted on which one looked the hottest, but they could have just as easily said "Here's your choice of one Femshep, deal with it", and they would have had some cred points.
I didn't know the percentage of female gamers was that high, and now I feel foolish and ashamed for being surprised by it.
I'd definitely like to see more fleshed out (no pun intended) female characters in lead roles in games, but I fear it might be a very slow process. Older entertainment mediums still haven't reached the goal of gender equality, have they?
Comics have caught quite a lot of heat recently for their sexist undertones, but I don't know what the gender makeup of superhero comic fans is like.
On a different note, I don't know the protocol with things like this [and I know it's been like two months perhaps I've lost my right to complain by this point], but I imagine some Destructoid readers might appreciate spoiler warning(s) before the jump, so they would know to be extra cautious if they're paranoid freaks like me.
I skipped most of the bold text for fear of Skyrim spoilers, but in my efforts to hastily look elsewhere, my eyes were drawn to the spoiler warning for Gears 3, and I unintentionally read the spoiler in my peripheral vision. =( Luckily I don't really give a hoot about that series.
Fantastic article, and a brave one, considering the sorts of comments you're definitely going to get. I apologize in advance on behalf of my fellow dudes.
One thing: for those of us who haven't played through every quest, please put more spoiler alerts in the article, if you would. I realize you need to bring up examples to make your points, but...
You should appeal to the aspiring female developers who could in the future make this all moot.
There is a market inefficiency in that women gamers are ignored relative to their numbers, this does not have to be filled by bethesda, 2k, EA, Activision, or Ubisoft. But someone will eventually and make a boatload of money doin it.
Anyways about Skyrim, the sexism on display is much greater than past Elder Scrolls games because thats how the nords are generally characterized in the series. They are staunch traditionalists, they are scared of anything new or terribly different. I don't think that skyrim ever actually supports the rampant racism, sexism, and anti-magic user sentiments of the skyrim populace.... its just part of the story and culture of the area they created. Hell I refuse to join the stormcloaks because they are racist fuckers and they deserve my vengeance.
That "42% of gamers are women" figure is toted around a lot. That comes from an unscientific study from the ESA (which doesn't even name the numbers or figures, or the criteria is uses) in what is essentially one giant advertisement for the ESA and the video game industry at large.
There is no scientific criteria used to justify that number. It's like political polls that say 40% of Americans are conservatives -- but they're self-described conservatives. There's no criteria to judge whether or not they're actually conservatives -- they simply say they are. You wouldn't rely on such a flimsy figure if your money depended on it.
That is essentially what the ESA did with that study.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf
No sample size, no scientific criteria -- anybody can just say they're a gamer, just as anyone can say they're a conservative. Technically speaking, anyone who plays a video game for 5 minutes a year is a gamer -- but not really. The figure is severely flawed, and it gets used a lot in these discussions.
It's smart because we all see him as a kickass hero with a voice more annoying than Batman's in The Dark Knight. Having him cry might "tarnish" his image as one of Xbox's main mascots.
But, that being said, it's stupid. Why can't we see him mourn? I'm sure as hell that if a soldier sees his best friend killed, he'll mourn. Is crying considered un-masculine now? I cry when someone I know dies, does that make me weak? Fuck no.
Great article, though. I love reading these.
I don't think this point is entirely fair. In most games, no one is the equal of the protagonist, whether that person is male or female. Most games are based in empowerment, Half-life included, and to have a character that surpasses you in power as an ally makes the player feel lesser and to have a character of equal power makes you feel non-unique. I'm not saying there isn't an issue with sexism in games, just that this point doesn't seem fair.
Anyone?
I would love to be proven wrong
Anyway, as a male working towards being a writer both in non-interactive media and in video games, I think the "I'm a dude, so I can't really write chicks" argument is complete and utter lazy bullshit. I mean, just think about it - how much do you have to regard girls as different or alien before it becomes difficult for you to find relatable material to write for them? Such a stupid excuse.
NOW i remember that shit now, oh well I always thought femshep was a better designed character then male shep who looked so god damned generic
and did sophie shit in some of your guys's cornflakes or something?
lets get this straight, games are a great fun waste of time. I love them, I research potential good games for months on end before release. As 'gamers'( whatever gender) we are a different breed and unfortunately most of us are male and there are stereotypes that go with male gamers (we're fat and clueless among women, liable to get/having got bullied as children) - women gamers ?There aren't any. It's the women are from mars, men are from venus thing.
I can see how games are a total waste of time that do little to nothing to enhance what makes me a person, as much as I love games they are nothing to boast about, especially amongst non gamers. Just today the sales girl next to me was eschewing to a colleague how much of a loser she was because she managed to complete angry birds, maybe she really felt that ,maybe she was negatively affected by a gender stereotype, maybe she felt she could have achieved something better in the time it took to complete the game (truth). Mine and a colleagues whispered discussions about videogames are met with derision, we have mortgages, he has children- we shouldn't be 'playing' we should be being constructive. Gaming doesn't enhance your physique, gaming isn't pontificated over when you're at a dinner party with regular people, normal people don't discuss the feelings they had when Agro fell off the cliff, or the relative benefits of seeing ones feet when you look down in a FPS. Gaming, at the level we talk about it on Destructoid is a niche. We gamers like it or not are quietly looked down upon by 'the norms', but we should stick together, maybe one day there will be a place where we can roam free as GAMERS, where devs won't make my avatar a muscly skinhead with a Texan accent, where women in videogames don't all have an above average breast size, where we can all cry when a horse falls off a cliff.
One part that I'm stumbling over a bit is that you're trying to link the odd nature of the way a game narrative centers on a game character, with the way in which women are often disempowered and I don't think it quite works in all of your examples. In any single player game, almost always the player character is the focus of the attention and everyone else takes a back seat, even when it doesn't seem to make sense, and that is poor writing - but that by itself is not specific to one gender or another. No sidekick character is ever your equal in a game, regardless of gender.
You can cherry-pick examples of guild or faction quests where there is a strong female character is displaced by your player character, who could be male - but this is arbitrary. It would be easy for a critic to pick a bunch of other examples where a strong male character is displaced by your player character, who could be female. It leaves the important things you're saying vulnerable to being bogged down in conversations about the fact that "you can pick your gender so wtf-ever." It's not a good example to lean on so heavily.
There are some other beats that you could have picked up and run with too, like the fact that you can have a same-sex marriage (in an incredibly forgettable way), or the authorial decision to go with the very male-dominated Norse archetype for a world setting, or why the hell reptilian females have breasts (seriously why? Reptiles do not breast-feed!).
Finally - while that initial twitter joke was clearly thoughtless, is your perception truly that it was meant to exclude female players? I'm legitimately asking; my interpretation was that the reason it was funny was because of the baseline assumption that women would have BETTER things to do, like interacting with other humans socially, for example. In other words, it is still guilty of relegating women to "objects on a pedestal, far removed from the likes of lowly basement-dwelling gamers," and that is problematic in and of itself because it is still "othering" fellow human beings, but I read it as self-deprecating, not as telling girls to get out of the boys' club. I see how it's still a problem attitude, but it's a statement that to me seems to come out of a lack of social experience and self-confidence, not out of attitude of patriarchal superiority, and I'm not sure that the reactions are addressing that. Maybe I'm off-base or missing the point, though.
Anyway, thought-provoking write-up. Thanks!
Not only can you when it comes to research and statistics like this, but you must. When you read a scientific case study on people with depression, they have certain criteria, certain standards, to meet that classification. They don't just say:
"Oh, well, you've been suicidal your whole life. Now this person, well, he spilled his jelly beans and now he's sad. Since you've both been sad in your life, you both must obviously be chronically depressed."
...because such a line of thinking is both silly and counter-productive to actual research. The kid who spills his jelly beans is not as depressed as the kid who watched his mother die in a car accident. Someone who maybe tinkers around on their cell phone now and then really is not as much of a gamer as someone dumping a thousand dollars a year on games and spending over 30 hours a week playing them.
That's not shitting on casual gamers -- it's just a distinction that must be made in all scientific endeavors. Who are publishers going to market to more: the gamer who plays for 5 minutes a day, or for 8 hours a day?
Other example you point out is the Skyrim nude mod, this is again a wrong thing to point out, because we all know that people are strange, not just males, or females, society as a equal is strange and crazy. We have games like Katawa Shoujo, Rapelay, Postal 1 & 2, Soul Calibur and many others that show that the human being is a demented one.
I like your point, even that is a current one here, and I can see that is normal to complain about it seeing you gender/race/belief or whatever not in place in a game that you like, but the male stereotype is a normal thing too in a game, i don't see a lot of black persons in games as protagonists and I don't see as a problem (GTA: San Andreas did, but well, you know how it was)
Also, bitching about someone poking fun at old clichés regarding gamers only reinforces the notion about feminists as whiners desperately looking for something to moan about that you so desperately seem to want to shake off. I'm sure that guy is fully aware of the amount of women that actually play these games nowadays, just like he probably never actually got beaten up or even saw people get beaten up for liking elder scrolls.
There are plenty of issues with sexism and juvenile attitudes to women among gamers, especially in the more competetive fps circles but the non-issues you bring up only serve to make feminist themed gaming bloggers seem like they're more concerned with finding some topic to sound intellectual about than with highlighting genuine problems.

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