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Studying sexism with Skyrim -- Fus Ro Va! Gina! photo

My name is Merillia Feldreth. I am a Dunmer, a Dark Elf. In the land of Skyrim, my kind is not particularly welcome. The Nords have their customs and ways which I admit I do not favor in my heart, but I respect in my actions. The favor is not returned, but I do not expect it to be. However, it dawns on me that perhaps there is another problem with Skyrim's inhabitants. Or more accurately, there is a problem they perceive to be within me:

My sex.

There are a great many things I have seen in my travels through Skyrim. I have seen ancient secrets and dead gods uncovered. I have explored decrepit ruins and labyrinthine caves. I have even witnessed the bringer of death, Alduin, in the flesh. It was, in a word, terrifying. But there is one thing I have yet to see, other than perhaps in myself: a strong female leader.

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It is almost impossible to describe the mind-boggling immensity of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. In its simplest form, we could describe it as a fantastic, fun game worth checking out. At its highest accolades, we call it a trend-bucking win for gamers, and for the industry. But if you peel back the praise showered on this game for its detailed environments, exciting combat, engaging plots, and freedom of choice, the issue of sexism begins to come forth.

Interestingly however, Skyrim itself isn't the problem. We can see sexist tropes and memes present throughout its design, but to call out this single game would be to misplace our focus. So let us instead observe the true issue of sexism, through the lens of Bethesda's masterpiece. Let's look at how, while Skyrim didn't create this hostile mindset, it hasn't done much to challenge it. Let's look at the game's community as a representative sample of our subculture at large. Let's not blame Skyrim, but observe it and learn from it.

In his review of Skyrim, Tom Bissell commented, "If you have no idea what the Elder Scrolls franchise is, you are probably either (a) an adult woman, or (b) the sort of person who once beat up the sort of person who likes the Elder Scrolls franchise."

It was intended as a joke, but to some it wasn't funny, and I count myself among that crowd. Because it isn't funny to me when, even as a joke, my entire gender is dismissed. I don't laugh when people assume that, because of what rests between the legs, women must inherently be opposed to things like SkyrimIt's an attitude equivalent to a "No Girls Allowed" club, and if I can let you into my life as a child for a moment, I confess I never really had a fondness for those, either. But my frustration doesn't come from one critic making a bad joke. It comes from both his assumptions and Skyrim's content being so status quo, so utterly representative of a patriarchy that pervades all of this industry we so love.

Right about here is where you say I'm crazy. Right about now is where you say, "Fuck this, I'm not reading a stupid feminist rant. She's making a big deal out of nothing."

Well, I'm not crazy. And neither is any other woman who is offended when someone makes a "joke" about what she should or shouldn't enjoy, video games included. Sexism is a problem within the video game subculture, and anyone willing to actually look around will notice. It's not hidden. It's not hard to find. The most popular Skyrim mod on Curse right now is for nude females. By a 5 to 1 margin it beats out the better performance mod, meaning the subculture you and I belong to would rather see tits than see a game run better.

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Somewhat... miffed at my mistreatment by the Nords and Imperials alike at the execution block, stuck in a land of unforgiving snow and fierce predators, I sought to soothe my troubled mind. Having some skill with a bow and practice as a pickpocket, I knew I could make an excellent addition to the Thieves Guild. Here, Brynjolf and the others welcomed me, though not with eager, open arms. Through time and dedication, I proved myself to them. The word of a thief is no word at all, but the skill is something to respect.

So it was that I uncovered a plot by then-guild leader Mercer Frey to steal all of the thieves' belongings, leaving them high and dry. Karliah, whom Frey had labeled a traitor of the Thieves Guild, was found to be innocent, and with her guidance, Brynjolf and I were shown into the fold of the Nightingales. We defeated Mercer and rescued the guild from the brink of destruction. What's more, thanks to Karliah, we were now servants of Nocturnal, gifted with extraordinary resources and abilities.

I was honored to have served under Karliah. She was capable and strong. She had experience and knowledge that I had not. Now that her betrayer was slain and the guild was once more stable, I assumed Karliah to be the one to head the Thieves Guild. Not so. Instead, she relinquished control to Brynjolf and I. To think myself a leader of the Thieves Guild was impossible; I had barely just met many of the Riften misfits, many of which I had not so much as spoken to.

Surprised but honored, I left Karliah, never to see her again, and worked instead with Brynjolf to restore the Thieves Guild even further, elevating them from common thugs to reputable and honorable folk. I sometimes find myself wondering about Karliah and what she does, out in Nightingale Hall by her lonesome. I wonder about her wellbeing, and I wonder why; Why did she not come back with us? Why did she give up the honor and respect she had been fighting to retrieve from Mercer Frey? Any thief can steal a trinket. Frey had stolen Karliah's entire life. Why was she not returning to it now that she could?

It is a question I cannot answer.

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When I asked my friends if I should write this column, if they felt the same way or saw things the same way as I did, they suggested I try to see the game through the eyes of someone else; of someone detached from our modern conceptions of sexism and fairness of gender portrayals. What I found was a game that wasn't as offensive as I originally thought. Plus let's be honest, it's hard to stay mad at a game that lets you dual-wield magic and swords.

So let's make this absolutely clear: I say none of this with contempt in my heart. I'm having a blast with Skyrim. I think it's a great game. I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.. I'm disappointed because Merrillia has no role models. And growing up, neither did I.

When I was little, my brothers got me a screen printed t-shirt that read in great, bold letters, "I SUCK." It was required attire if I ever wanted to play the NES or Genesis. I was never to think of myself as a player on the same level as they, and there was no way that tight, itchy shirt would ever let me forget it. Each member of my family was an athlete: my father a weightlifter and wrestling coach, my mother a cross-country runner, one brother a basketball player, the other a baseball star. And I liked video games.

My concern with the video games of yesterday and today, as exemplified by Skyrim and countless others, is that they aren't doing anything for the girls stuck in the same situation now as I was then. That girls don't have enough role models in the gaming community. I don't want girls to see this hobby as something that excludes them. They are valuable additions to our community, not something to be taken for granted, mocked, or turned away.

You and I know that the Dragonborn can be male or female. You and I understand that Shepard can be hero or heroine. But is that something readily apparent to everyone? Is it as obvious to the girl picking up a controller for the first time as it is to us? I don't think so. I think there's still something to be said. I think there are still paths to be traveled, people to witness to.

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Having set the thieves straight on their feet, I set my sights on the Companions next. A hardy group of warriors, steeped in lore and legend of the Nords, I was expecting them to be a bit more... hesitant to allow a Dunmer amongst them. Yet it was relatively easy to prove myself even to these sturdy warriors, and soon Kodlak, leader of the Companions, honored me with acceptance. The Companions have a secret, however, and it is one I shall not journal here, for fear of its finding. I will only say instead that this secret causes great conflict with a band of zealous mercenaries that roam the Skyrim mountains and valleys.

This secret, and in turn the conflict, eventually led to Kodlak's death. Jorrvaskr came under siege and not I, nor anyone else could protect our wisened leader. We set upon a bloody quest for vengeance at first, furious and angered by our loss. We soon realized however that we had to turn our attention inward, turn it towards helping Kodlak's passage in death to Sovngarde.

A great many dungeons and fortresses lay in our path to salvation, and one by one my closest Companions left my side, staying behind. Except for Aela, the Huntress. She had been the one to share the Companions' secret with me, and was a fiercely determined woman. It was she who led a great many of the attacks against our rivals, and it was she who stood by me to the end of our journey. At the innermost sanctum of Ysgramor's Tomb we found his restless spirit and calmed its bestial passions.

And once again, I found myself... admittedly shocked. Though Aela had been with me throughout all of my ordeals, though she had superior skill and seniority within the Companions, Kodlak's spirit bestowed upon me the title of Harbinger. I was now what could be considered a leader of the group, though once again I felt a great, misplaced weight, as I did when Karliah left the Thieves Guild to Brynjolf and myself.

After reconvening with my fellow warriors, I set them, as I had the Riften thieves, on their way. They were fully suited to carrying on without me, and my destiny still waited amongst the snowy peaks. My destiny as a Dragonborn.

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Ah yes, the Dragonborn. Despite a major feature of the game being the ability to customize one's race, gender and appearance, in Skyrim's advertising, parody videos, and machinima, we see the horn-helmed male figure who stunned us all as star of the game's first gameplay trailer representing the hero. It was assumed, even before we knew what this new hero so much as looked like, that it would be male. Recall the final, spine-tingling words of the very first teaser:

"...there is one they fear. In their tongue, he is Dovakhiin. Dragonborn!"

Whenever a game is released that features the ability to customize a character's gender, the prominent presence associated with its ad campaign is almost universally the male one. This was the case in Mass Effect from the very beginning, as it was with Dragon Age, Saints Row, and Skyrim. But it's really just marketing bullshit. It doesn't have to be that way.

Take a look at these stats from the Entertainment Software Association:

  • 42 percent of players are women

  • 48 percent of purchasers are women

  • 37 percent of the entire gaming population is made up of women 18 years or older

Now if those numbers were in the twenties, I could understand not catering to a female audience. But that's not the case, and when I look around I see too many great women doing great things for this industry to ignore our sex. I see too many talented gamers, industry personnel, personalities, forward-thinkers and writers. I read too many female commenters here on Destructoid. I hear too many distraught voices. We are not small. We are not insignificant. But we are not being treated equally.

The year 2011 did nothing to change that, and while Skyrim was in prime position to do so, it didn't. It challenged the industry's standards on what we as gamers have been told to expect from games – particularly over the last five or so years – such as online passes and a need for multiplayer, but it doesn't deny what we as women have been told to expect from our games for most of our lives, which are namely:

  • Women are not the heroes. They are designed to highlight form over function. They are sidekicks and lovers, but not heroes.

  • Women are not to advertise games, even if the game features customizable player-characters. The predominantly male consumer can only identify with another of his sex, so women do not represent the games in the public eye.

  • Women do not lead the hero. Men can make demands of the hero or lead them, but a woman may only ask for help.

  • Women are not in a position of power or respect. If both king and queen sit before you, each with seemingly equal power over their citizens, it is to the king you will speak.

This is not to negate the likes of Samus Aran, FemShep, Claire Redfield, or other strong female heroes, or even a female Dragonborn in Skyrim. But for every well-written, thoughtfully-designed, independent lady out there, we find ten pieces of vapid eye candy, the kind of empty personalities that populate utterly base, degrading, stupid shit like this Maxim list, The Top 9 Video Game Vixens. Here's a sample of how video game heroines are perceived, courtesy of the entry on Lei Fang from Dead or Alive:

"...you're hoping she might kick you again, if only to get just one more glimpse of those white cotton panties she's wearing."

If you're thinking to yourself, "Well duh, that's Maxim, they're paid to be pervs. The rest of us aren't like that," I'd like to once more point you to the nude mod for Skyrim. Five to one over better performance.

Now, the women of Skyrim are far less likely to wind up on such a list, and at first may even seem admirable by comparison. Maven Black-Briar runs the organized crime in Riften and has no qualms about pushing you around. Three of the nine Jarls are women, and Astrid, a woman, leads what may be the deadliest guild in Tamriel's lore. But even these come with the typical backhanded stereotypes of women attached. Maven is, frankly, a huge bitch. The female Jarls are completely optional in terms of interaction, unimportant to the main quest. Astrid is a traitor who gets everybody fucking killed because she is scared of the guards, and cries over the fact.

If you've been reading the prose interspersed throughout this column, you'll notice a running theme: Merrillia saves the day, assisted by a strong female, who at the last minute is bafflingly shoved aside to make way for a male or Merrillia herself to take power. I understand player empowerment, but there comes a point where a sense of progress is impeded by the game handing heaps of praise and awe onto my character without reasonable justification. It forces characters whom I once viewed favorably, such as Aela and Karliah, to act out of character; they must suddenly be disempowered so that I may take their place. The easiest way to do that, of course, is to fall back to gender stereotypes, i.e. sexism.

Think back to Metroid: Other M. A character initially thought to be a strong, resilient soldier and all-around space badass, Samus is reduced to -- literally -- a weeping little girl in the face of danger. Can you imagine Master Chief stopping to wipe a few tears in the middle of a Covenant invasion? Can you imagine any male character being so scared by his enemy that he breaks down into sobs? SPOILER ALERT: Dom fucking dies in Gears of War 3, and Marcus doesn't shed a tear. He does the stereotypically masculine "Noooo!" and then threatens to rip out the throat of anyone who brings it up. END SPOILER.


In order for our subculture to progress, we must defy the stereotypes. We must say no more. And we can do that, by simply not buying products we feel have let us down, by writing to developers, by standing up for what we think is important. You could even write something on, oh I don't know, a video game website like this one? Because once you've done your part, The challenge falls to game designers and writers. It's up to them to play against the stereotypes of women being emotionally fragile and men being incapable of any emotion but rage (a stereotype as equally offensive, but I'll leave it to the males out there to express their distaste of that portrayal of their gender) to create well-rounded characters we can still relate to. So, you know: Their jobs.

Here's an oft-discussed example: Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 is frequently praised for her strength and personality. And to a point, I agree. She's certainly well-written, strongly voiced, and superbly animated. She's also of great use to the player by possessing useful combat AI and warning us of dangerous surroundings. But she's not your equal. Nor is Elena Fisher from Uncharted. Nor is Mona Sax from Max Payne. Nor is Sheva Alomar from Resident Evil 5. The spotlight is always squarely on the male protagonist, lovable and/or useful though the women may be. In order to have the spotlight shine on a strong female, one almost has to go so far as to write fan fiction.

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I cannot even know how such a thing as me being a Dragonborn could be true, but it is. After fending off a dragon attack from the hold of Whiterun, the same township that held the Companions' meeting hall, I could feel the dragon's power... melding with mine. I absorbed its strength as the flesh seared into ash and fluttered away in the wind, leaving only sand-white bone. I was Dragonborn, the only kind of person who could permanently slay a dragon.

I was, however, untrained. I had seen writing in the ancient dragon language throughout my adventures, but never knew how to speak them, nor how to control their power. I was instructed to meet with the Greybeards on High Hrothgar, and they in turn would teach me the power of the Voice, the way to control dragon power.

With training and confidence in my newfound abilities, I set forth on an adventure that would take me from the deepest dungeons to the farthest holds, gathering allies and artifacts along the way. I would encounter the Thalmor and the Imperial Legion, as well as Ulfric Stormcloak himself. I would destroy those that came against me while turning a diplomatic cheek to the civil war of Skyrim.

In none of my adventures however, did I find another like myself. Nowhere amongst the citizens did I find a female who not only took charge, but did so commendably and respectably. I may be the latest – and perhaps last – Dragonborn, but it is just as disheartening that I may be the first of my female kind.

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Skyrim isn't the root of these problems. It's not the sole offender. It is simply the most recent, relevant example. It is emblematic of the problems that have persisted in gaming, even through the year 2011. It was also the game I most hoped to see change that pattern. I was sadly disappointed. Yet I don't blame or hate Bethesda for the way they've designed Skyrim. I don't believe there's any malice behind it. I don't think they thought of making the Greybeards some kind of sisterhood and then said, "What are you kidding me? Women as the wise old masters? Fuck no!"

So try not to rush to Skyrim's defense with, "But it's based on patriarchal Norse mythology, so it's realistic!" A game based in a completely fictional world crafted by dozens of designers where you can run around as a humanoid cat, wielding a flaming sword in the absolute nude (with mods) is not going to carry that argument. Similarly, I'm not saying Bethesda condones sexism, merely that they passively stood by while it took place when they could have actively worked to change the course of gender politics in video games.

But instead, I would wager the same thing happened with Skyrim that happens with most fiction writing: they didn't even consider strong, respectable female roles as a possibility in the first place. I wouldn't blame them. They'd be traversing largely unexplored territory. It's rare for a game where gender is chosen to have a trailer featuring the one with tits. It's rare to see a respectable female give you orders. It's rare to see a female partner to be considered an equal. Hell, so few developers have made a game featuring a main female character at all.

Every one of the major, negative trends listed above is seen within the game and its advertising. While Skyrim should be applauded and held aloft as an example of goodness for all it does different, we can see that there are still a great many attitudes to change, a great number of paths to forge, and we should just as well hold Skyrim – and the industry that birthed it, as well as the community that supports it -- accountable for what hasn't been done differently.

The reason sexism is a problem isn't because there are malicious designers conspiring around tables to exclude women from games. It's a problem is because we haven't demanded that this change. It's a problem because we're complacent with this concept that is so ingrained, so expected for men to fill Role A while women fill Role B that not even Skyrim, a monumental testament to human innovation and imagination that sparked the excitement of millions would truly challenge it.

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*The journal ends here. You set it down, across the cold, stone tablet covering the grave of Merillia, the legendary Dragonborn who slew Alduin and saved not only Skyrim, but all of Tamriel. A statue of the lady elf stands towering before you as a monument to her heroic deeds. You look around you at the snowy peaks and evergreen pine. The wind blows hard through your clothing, a chill that cuts to the bone. You step away, assured that your own bard-worthy adventures lie ahead.*








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292 comments | showing # 1 to 50
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king kong five's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:12
king kong five
great piece, and great writing style. i really miss seeing editorials like these on destructoid; maybe it's in my head but i seem to recall them being much more frequent
Onyx Leo's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:17
Onyx Leo
Okay, I /REALLY/ don't want to be 'That guy', but... Really? This again? .-. I agree that there's still a problem in the industry, but it's not like developers have completely stagnated when it comes to gender equality. We're not there yet, but it's still better than 10 years ago where the female 'lead' was usually restricted to the love interest, or the white mage.

Again, we're not there yet, but considering even Soul Calibur has their female leads in... Reasonable clothing this time around, I would say that's progress.
Commander x202x's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:18
Commander x202x
Too long...

CyricZ's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:18
CyricZ
I wonder if a game, simply as a social experiment, would put a female main character on the box (when it offers choice of both genders) and see what happens. I'm sure no "sane" marketing department would allow it, but it's interesting to think about.

So, your article is not the first about sexism in the video game media, and it won't be the last, but it's certainly well-written, and I do say I love the framing device of Skyrim.

Interesting when you think that game developers and gamers, which are, stereotypically, the kind to least be "masculine" of the male archetype, are still at odds with portraying women in a realistic manner. Maybe just the ignorance in general gets in the way.

As a last thought, games do a disservice to men as a gender, as well (obviously not as much), and GoW3, which you brought up, is a perfect example. Why DIDN'T Marcus cry for his brother-in-arms Dom? He had every right to experience heart-rending sorrow over the loss, and yet, he went right back to being all macho grim-faced.

I still think we're a ways off at realism in our characters when the caricatures market so much better. We'll probably have to rely on the indie folks (YET AGAIN) for helping push the barriers.
CyricZ's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:20
CyricZ
@ Onyx Leo: I hear where you're coming from, but I really think that if these issues are addressed, yet don't improve, then they'll need to be re-addressed until something happens.
Snowraptor's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:20
Snowraptor
If you look on skyrimnexus.com you'll see a different trend where a mod that simply changes the texture of the stars is competing with nude mods, not to mention any of the other good graphical tweaks that have just as many if not more downloads.
Chris Carter's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:25
Chris Carter
"When I was little, my brothers got me a screen printed t-shirt that read in great, bold letters, “I SUCK.” It was required attire if I ever wanted to play the NES or Genesis. I was never to think of myself as a player on the same level as they, and there was no way that tight, itchy shirt would ever let me forget it. Each member of my family was an athlete: my father a weightlifter and wrestling coach, my mother a cross-country runner, one brother a basketball player, the other a baseball star."

This explains a lot about why you write the articles you write.
Sir Tobbii's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:26
Sir Tobbii
As a person who also have written texts about sexism in games I need to point one thing out perfectly clear before I go to the main subject of your text.

The nude-patch argument is not valid, it will never be valid, just because someone was to jerk off more than they want to download a more "logical" patch doesn't say anything about their respect towards either sex. Hell, I know gay men who would download that patch, and look at Tara Long in the latest episode of the Dtoid show. But whatever, let's go to your actual argument.

It's true that there's a lack of main rolemodels for female characters in Skyrim, and a lot of other games, and that is a shame. However, we need to remember that Skyrim is largely based on ancient nordic folklore and norse mythology, which if they wish to stay true to the concept is very male-dominant. One could argue that they could have done a better job of making it more contemporary, but I think that was what they were going for, hence the reason for the lack of those character tropes.

As for marketing, well you said it yourself. 42% of gamers are female, that means 58% are male, looking at those numbers it's logical of the marketing department to pick male over female. I personally like that BioWare is going with both for Mass Effect 3, but I've heard arguments that they shouldn't have done that as well, so it's a tough thing to work with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you, quite the opposite, I'm just trying to see it from the eyes of the developer.

Oh, and don't bold the word "Dies" past the spoiler tag, it catches the eye and then the spoiler comes through either way. Just saying.
CaimDark's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:26
CaimDark
Here we go again...
rengeki's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:27
rengeki
While I'd love to see females occupy a more prominent place in gaming, I really don't think that Skyrim is a good thing to put under the microscope. While it doesn't do anything to advance the female role in gaming, it doesn't exactly do anything to hurt it.

For the most part, I didn't find the treatment of the females in the game to be too unwarranted. For the Thieves' Guild, Karliah had made a mistake, and was paying the price for it. In terms of the Dark Brotherhood, Astrid's actions were something that I could see any human being doing when put in that situation, regardless of gender. For the Companions, wondering why Aela wasn't made the new leader is a tad misleading, since no one else (male included!) who fit the qualifications was chosen either. And let's not forget that pretty much every Jarl can be ignored, regardless of gender.

And let's not forget that Skyrim is supposed to be YOUR story. YOU are the hero - you, a female! YOUR character is the female role model that the people of Skyrim will look up to. The fact that Bethesda allowed you to write your own story, however which way you wanted it, is, in my opinion, empowerment.

Great read, nonetheless!
doomknight66's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:29
doomknight66
@CyricZ

isn't the 3rd mass effect doing that?

and I totally agree with men getting the shaft a bit to, I'm so sick of seeing every guy in a game being a "badass" there needs to be a more middle ground for the sexes not every woman should be snivling useless whiner and not every man has to be manly mctufferton who has to do everything and never shows any weakness EVER because he's a MAN
Stahlbrand's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:30
Stahlbrand
ew, bold tag abuse on the front page. Shameful.
Kree's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:30
Kree
Great stuff! Well written and I agree to every word. Would be awesome to see less sexism and more believable characters, both male and female in video games.
Commander x202x's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:31
Commander x202x
@CaimDark

That's what I was thinking, So I decided not to comment. If I did, I would get sexist rants thrown at me left and right. You can't argue with opinion because people are ignorant.
Chris Creo's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:31
Chris Creo
In time. The way I see it there are more females making the games now than ever before, but the senor team members with more years in the biz are still mostly men. As David Finch (a comic book man) says "you draw what you know" in reference to why he and men in general have problems drawing females. So its no shock when a man writes a story about a man or a man is given a concept idea for a character and he draws a man its just easier to envision it as what you seen in the mirror everyday. Also somewhere in the family guy commentary they are talking about meg and I something like "as an adult man, I have trouble writing in a 17 year girl"
VenusInFurs's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:31
VenusInFurs
Again? This all becoming too typical.
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:31
Wedge
This aga---- oh wait, someone already got to it. But seriously. No.
TheEvilV's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:32
TheEvilV
Started to read this but had to stop after the second bolded part. I wish there was some form of spoiler alert before this article because it basically tells the story of one of the main quests in the game. Skyrim is barely 3 months old and I know there are people who have yet to play it. I haven't even gotten through all of it, so I decided to stop reading from there.

Looks interesting, but really messed up for people who wanted to play the game.
BrainWasherAttendent's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:33
BrainWasherAttendent
A Load of Hate Speech.
By Sophie Prell.

It must suck to have your life dominated by such pointless concerns. I feel sorry for the politically correct crowd of drones. Life must be one big schlong of offensiveness slapping your face.

Pitiful.
Kaden101's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:34
Kaden101
It is almost impossible to describe the mind-boggling retardness of the PS3 version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. In its simplest form, we could describe it as a broken, infuriating piece of worthless tosh. At its highest accolades, we call it a laggy, crashy customer-fucking lose for gamers, and a get away with anything free card for the industry. But if you peel back the blind praise showered on this game for its detailed environments (which you get to see 1 frame at a time), exciting combat (which you get to experience 1 frame at a time), engaging plots, and freedom of choice (which way would you like to stutter now), the issue of a still unfinished (two months after it's "shouldn't have been released date") piece of donkey doo begins to come forth.

There, corrected it for you.
Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:34
Usedtabe
All I know is that my Dragonborn had to fistfight your average-Joe villager women for a quest and she went pound for pound with my 6ft, 260lb viking no problem. If that's not some equality fantasy I don't know what is.

I have no problem with women wanting to expand themselves in the game market and would love to see them exceed, but that's the key. THEY need to succeed at it. It is not on anyone else's shoulders to do what you want done.
CyricZ's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:35
CyricZ
@doomknight66:

Which I don't count for two reasons:

1) It was originally marketed as male Shep. Femshep was added later, and will only appear on the CE anyway.

2) There was a gigantic hooplah around the vote to decide which Femshep would be on the cover. Which looked the proudest, bravest, strongest, oh wait I'm sorry no. Which looked the *hottest*? You could say that EA couldn't control that people voted on which one looked the hottest, but they could have just as easily said "Here's your choice of one Femshep, deal with it", and they would have had some cred points.
PiggyGamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:36
PiggyGamer
Good article. I was watching my sister play Skyrim yesterday, and the blacksmith in Whiterun called her female character "lad". (And he looked at her when he did it, lol Sterling humor)

I didn't know the percentage of female gamers was that high, and now I feel foolish and ashamed for being surprised by it.
I'd definitely like to see more fleshed out (no pun intended) female characters in lead roles in games, but I fear it might be a very slow process. Older entertainment mediums still haven't reached the goal of gender equality, have they?
Comics have caught quite a lot of heat recently for their sexist undertones, but I don't know what the gender makeup of superhero comic fans is like.

On a different note, I don't know the protocol with things like this [and I know it's been like two months perhaps I've lost my right to complain by this point], but I imagine some Destructoid readers might appreciate spoiler warning(s) before the jump, so they would know to be extra cautious if they're paranoid freaks like me.
I skipped most of the bold text for fear of Skyrim spoilers, but in my efforts to hastily look elsewhere, my eyes were drawn to the spoiler warning for Gears 3, and I unintentionally read the spoiler in my peripheral vision. =( Luckily I don't really give a hoot about that series.
Chongomaster's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:36
Chongomaster
The problem with all these sorts of articles is that they assume videogames are on par with films or literature in influence. Games are in their infancy and the stories in games represent this fact. Complaining is all jolly good but people need to accept that games are a rather low-brow media and that it'll be decades before that changes.
Sir Tobbii's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:38
Sir Tobbii
@Chongomaster
Better to try and change it early though.
SoundsLike's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:41
SoundsLike
Painful read. I actually felt like I was becoming sexist the more I read.
Ffordesoon's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:43
Ffordesoon
SLOW. CLAP.

Fantastic article, and a brave one, considering the sorts of comments you're definitely going to get. I apologize in advance on behalf of my fellow dudes.

One thing: for those of us who haven't played through every quest, please put more spoiler alerts in the article, if you would. I realize you need to bring up examples to make your points, but...
kid gloves's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:44
kid gloves
The appeal shouldn't be towards established developers to make games different or to recognize female gamers more.

You should appeal to the aspiring female developers who could in the future make this all moot.

There is a market inefficiency in that women gamers are ignored relative to their numbers, this does not have to be filled by bethesda, 2k, EA, Activision, or Ubisoft. But someone will eventually and make a boatload of money doin it.

Anyways about Skyrim, the sexism on display is much greater than past Elder Scrolls games because thats how the nords are generally characterized in the series. They are staunch traditionalists, they are scared of anything new or terribly different. I don't think that skyrim ever actually supports the rampant racism, sexism, and anti-magic user sentiments of the skyrim populace.... its just part of the story and culture of the area they created. Hell I refuse to join the stormcloaks because they are racist fuckers and they deserve my vengeance.
Revuhlooshun's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:44
Revuhlooshun
A small bone to pick:

That "42% of gamers are women" figure is toted around a lot. That comes from an unscientific study from the ESA (which doesn't even name the numbers or figures, or the criteria is uses) in what is essentially one giant advertisement for the ESA and the video game industry at large.

There is no scientific criteria used to justify that number. It's like political polls that say 40% of Americans are conservatives -- but they're self-described conservatives. There's no criteria to judge whether or not they're actually conservatives -- they simply say they are. You wouldn't rely on such a flimsy figure if your money depended on it.

That is essentially what the ESA did with that study.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf

No sample size, no scientific criteria -- anybody can just say they're a gamer, just as anyone can say they're a conservative. Technically speaking, anyone who plays a video game for 5 minutes a year is a gamer -- but not really. The figure is severely flawed, and it gets used a lot in these discussions.
Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:47
Usedtabe
And Rev just shit all over your article, just like that. Better get some new numbers there Sophie, though that doesn't mean your intentions aren't somewhat noble.
TechnicolorDewDrop's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:48
TechnicolorDewDrop
So let me get this straight: you are bitching not about Skyrim being sexist, but that it didn't fulfill some absurd, preconceived responsibilty that you yourself bestowed on it?
L3ED's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:49
L3ED
In Marcus' case, I think it was smart to not have him cry. It was also incredibly stupid.

It's smart because we all see him as a kickass hero with a voice more annoying than Batman's in The Dark Knight. Having him cry might "tarnish" his image as one of Xbox's main mascots.

But, that being said, it's stupid. Why can't we see him mourn? I'm sure as hell that if a soldier sees his best friend killed, he'll mourn. Is crying considered un-masculine now? I cry when someone I know dies, does that make me weak? Fuck no.

Great article, though. I love reading these.
Corduroy Turtle's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:49
Corduroy Turtle
I'm not taking the bait.
jboking's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:49
jboking
"Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 [is] not your equal. Nor is Elena Fisher from Uncharted. Nor is Mona Sax from Max Payne. Nor is Sheva Alomar from Resident Evil 5. The spotlight is always squarely on the male protagonist."

I don't think this point is entirely fair. In most games, no one is the equal of the protagonist, whether that person is male or female. Most games are based in empowerment, Half-life included, and to have a character that surpasses you in power as an ally makes the player feel lesser and to have a character of equal power makes you feel non-unique. I'm not saying there isn't an issue with sexism in games, just that this point doesn't seem fair.
siddartha85's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:53
siddartha85
There seems to be no pleasing you. You tear apart any example that disproves your point as not being good enough. Maven is a "bitch" because you think she is. She runs organized crime. Men who do that act the same way, like thugs. Women are only "bitches" because of a double-standard. Also, do you think Aela or Karliah are the only possible heirs to their respective organizations? You push aside a lot of people and no, it's still not fair. And why are you just dismissing the female Jarls? The one working with the empire is pretty awesome. I respect her. And everyone is optional in terms of interaction, including the Greybeards.
Freakydemon's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:53
Freakydemon
@Magnalon
My thoughts exactly.
Nitex's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:53
Nitex
It pisses me off when a girl is considered a gamer for playing Angry Birds.
pushingrocks's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:54
pushingrocks
Does anyone have a link to the methodology of those ESA figures about 42 percent of gamers being female? I've seen it referenced a lot before, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a really hard time reconciling it with my personal observations. How was the study conducted and what really did they define, "gamer" as?
Anyone?
I would love to be proven wrong
Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:56
Usedtabe
@PushingRocks: Check Rev's comment above you.
Azudarko's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 16:58
Azudarko
Wow, a lot of really terribly sexist people in this comment thread.

Anyway, as a male working towards being a writer both in non-interactive media and in video games, I think the "I'm a dude, so I can't really write chicks" argument is complete and utter lazy bullshit. I mean, just think about it - how much do you have to regard girls as different or alien before it becomes difficult for you to find relatable material to write for them? Such a stupid excuse.
doomknight66's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:00
doomknight66
@CyricZ

NOW i remember that shit now, oh well I always thought femshep was a better designed character then male shep who looked so god damned generic

and did sophie shit in some of your guys's cornflakes or something?
Scaryjim's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:02
Scaryjim
I feel bad that you didn't find the comment in the review funny. I read it to imply that adult women are too mature or have better things to do than playing games, it was self deprecating.

lets get this straight, games are a great fun waste of time. I love them, I research potential good games for months on end before release. As 'gamers'( whatever gender) we are a different breed and unfortunately most of us are male and there are stereotypes that go with male gamers (we're fat and clueless among women, liable to get/having got bullied as children) - women gamers ?There aren't any. It's the women are from mars, men are from venus thing.

I can see how games are a total waste of time that do little to nothing to enhance what makes me a person, as much as I love games they are nothing to boast about, especially amongst non gamers. Just today the sales girl next to me was eschewing to a colleague how much of a loser she was because she managed to complete angry birds, maybe she really felt that ,maybe she was negatively affected by a gender stereotype, maybe she felt she could have achieved something better in the time it took to complete the game (truth). Mine and a colleagues whispered discussions about videogames are met with derision, we have mortgages, he has children- we shouldn't be 'playing' we should be being constructive. Gaming doesn't enhance your physique, gaming isn't pontificated over when you're at a dinner party with regular people, normal people don't discuss the feelings they had when Agro fell off the cliff, or the relative benefits of seeing ones feet when you look down in a FPS. Gaming, at the level we talk about it on Destructoid is a niche. We gamers like it or not are quietly looked down upon by 'the norms', but we should stick together, maybe one day there will be a place where we can roam free as GAMERS, where devs won't make my avatar a muscly skinhead with a Texan accent, where women in videogames don't all have an above average breast size, where we can all cry when a horse falls off a cliff.
Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:02
Usedtabe
@Azudarko: Are you saying people here are sexist because they don't agree with the author? If not, then point out some actual sexist comments please.
fulldamage's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:03
fulldamage
I think this is probably the best article you've posted on this site; it's thorough and covers a lot of ground - great job!

One part that I'm stumbling over a bit is that you're trying to link the odd nature of the way a game narrative centers on a game character, with the way in which women are often disempowered and I don't think it quite works in all of your examples. In any single player game, almost always the player character is the focus of the attention and everyone else takes a back seat, even when it doesn't seem to make sense, and that is poor writing - but that by itself is not specific to one gender or another. No sidekick character is ever your equal in a game, regardless of gender.

You can cherry-pick examples of guild or faction quests where there is a strong female character is displaced by your player character, who could be male - but this is arbitrary. It would be easy for a critic to pick a bunch of other examples where a strong male character is displaced by your player character, who could be female. It leaves the important things you're saying vulnerable to being bogged down in conversations about the fact that "you can pick your gender so wtf-ever." It's not a good example to lean on so heavily.

There are some other beats that you could have picked up and run with too, like the fact that you can have a same-sex marriage (in an incredibly forgettable way), or the authorial decision to go with the very male-dominated Norse archetype for a world setting, or why the hell reptilian females have breasts (seriously why? Reptiles do not breast-feed!).

Finally - while that initial twitter joke was clearly thoughtless, is your perception truly that it was meant to exclude female players? I'm legitimately asking; my interpretation was that the reason it was funny was because of the baseline assumption that women would have BETTER things to do, like interacting with other humans socially, for example. In other words, it is still guilty of relegating women to "objects on a pedestal, far removed from the likes of lowly basement-dwelling gamers," and that is problematic in and of itself because it is still "othering" fellow human beings, but I read it as self-deprecating, not as telling girls to get out of the boys' club. I see how it's still a problem attitude, but it's a statement that to me seems to come out of a lack of social experience and self-confidence, not out of attitude of patriarchal superiority, and I'm not sure that the reactions are addressing that. Maybe I'm off-base or missing the point, though.

Anyway, thought-provoking write-up. Thanks!
Revuhlooshun's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:03
Revuhlooshun
And just to elaborate further on my point, since I know some will say: "Well you can't differentiate between gamers! Everyone is a gamer!"

Not only can you when it comes to research and statistics like this, but you must. When you read a scientific case study on people with depression, they have certain criteria, certain standards, to meet that classification. They don't just say:

"Oh, well, you've been suicidal your whole life. Now this person, well, he spilled his jelly beans and now he's sad. Since you've both been sad in your life, you both must obviously be chronically depressed."

...because such a line of thinking is both silly and counter-productive to actual research. The kid who spills his jelly beans is not as depressed as the kid who watched his mother die in a car accident. Someone who maybe tinkers around on their cell phone now and then really is not as much of a gamer as someone dumping a thousand dollars a year on games and spending over 30 hours a week playing them.

That's not shitting on casual gamers -- it's just a distinction that must be made in all scientific endeavors. Who are publishers going to market to more: the gamer who plays for 5 minutes a day, or for 8 hours a day?
Salnax's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:03
Salnax
Bravo. As a male gamer, I'm starved for female heroes. I find the treatment of the majority of the human race to be subpar in this medium.
kliptic's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:04
kliptic
Ok well I don't understand where you come up with this, did you just read a feminism tome? Because this seems typical chick "rights" shit, seriously I LOVE female gamers, but when they post the stupid post that I have read, seriously? You call yourself a gamer then u accuse one of the best ganes ever of being sexist? And I'm probably gonna get banned and my post deleted, but I have one word for you, "uncool". That's it so I'm gonna let u marinate with that.
Space Moose's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:06
Space Moose
Some of the most powerful Daedric gods in the Elder Scrolls universe are female.
Henriquegds's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:07
Henriquegds
I can see your point, but sometimes your examples crumbles everything apart. Putting Gears of War 3 as an example that boys don't cry is a wrong, those guys are made from testosterone and steroids, Epic Games and their fanbase will hate to see their characters being in a corner and crying deeply.


Other example you point out is the Skyrim nude mod, this is again a wrong thing to point out, because we all know that people are strange, not just males, or females, society as a equal is strange and crazy. We have games like Katawa Shoujo, Rapelay, Postal 1 & 2, Soul Calibur and many others that show that the human being is a demented one.


I like your point, even that is a current one here, and I can see that is normal to complain about it seeing you gender/race/belief or whatever not in place in a game that you like, but the male stereotype is a normal thing too in a game, i don't see a lot of black persons in games as protagonists and I don't see as a problem (GTA: San Andreas did, but well, you know how it was)
Chocken's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/17/2012 17:08
Chocken
Your articles remind me of yahtzee's quote about Hideo Kojima. "If a politician can talk for hours without saying anything then Kojima could run for emperor of the fucking moon by next week". You need to take a long hard look at exactly what it is your trying to say because everything I've read by you comes off as so much rambling intellectual dick-waving (sorry about the metaphor given your usual subject matter but I couldn't think of a better one). In short try to concentrate on getting your point across instead of sounding smart.

Also, bitching about someone poking fun at old clichés regarding gamers only reinforces the notion about feminists as whiners desperately looking for something to moan about that you so desperately seem to want to shake off. I'm sure that guy is fully aware of the amount of women that actually play these games nowadays, just like he probably never actually got beaten up or even saw people get beaten up for liking elder scrolls.

There are plenty of issues with sexism and juvenile attitudes to women among gamers, especially in the more competetive fps circles but the non-issues you bring up only serve to make feminist themed gaming bloggers seem like they're more concerned with finding some topic to sound intellectual about than with highlighting genuine problems.
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