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But guys, we're not allowed to dislike Valve or anything they make, remember? They can do no wrong. Ever.
SO SHUT YOUR GOD DAMN MOUTH!
SO SHUT YOUR GOD DAMN MOUTH!
This kind of language seems to be enforceable in the U.S, but I doubt this would fly in Europe or most other places. I almost wish a bunch of very angry Europeans somewhere took this to court just to see how it plays out. Alas, Europeans are not nearly as lawsuit-happy as Americans, so we probably won't find out anytime soon.
@kyera
That is true, but in the past these clauses have always contained language requiring that any dispute be handled through binding arbitration. That's the real kick in the nuts. I'm not sure if that is the case here though.
That is true, but in the past these clauses have always contained language requiring that any dispute be handled through binding arbitration. That's the real kick in the nuts. I'm not sure if that is the case here though.
You wanna class action lawsuit? Meet Newell by the flagpole after school for an ol' fashioned Knifefight.
Valve is our Savior.
Valve is our Savior.
Hey, hey, class action lawyers need to feed their families, too! Why are you trying to put my more lucrative-suit-seeking brethren out of business, Valve?
Seriously, though, Valve is right that many class action suits are simply stupid and disruptive. However, sometimes it's the only way to actually change a shady, anti-consumer, or even illegal business practice. It would be almost impossible for one person to take on a big company, who will almost certainly be able to outclass them in terms of money and legal representation. It's expensive and time consuming to litigate a civil matter. The civil action process could definitely use an overhaul but I don't think this mediation clause is the answer.
Seriously, though, Valve is right that many class action suits are simply stupid and disruptive. However, sometimes it's the only way to actually change a shady, anti-consumer, or even illegal business practice. It would be almost impossible for one person to take on a big company, who will almost certainly be able to outclass them in terms of money and legal representation. It's expensive and time consuming to litigate a civil matter. The civil action process could definitely use an overhaul but I don't think this mediation clause is the answer.
This is incredibly shitty. I'm disappointed. Hopefully enough Steam users will voice their complaints and Valve will have the sense to listen and reconsider.
Regardless of how many class action suits actually pay out for the plaintiffs, this is still a restriction of consumer rights. Class action suits aren't about getting the consumers a bunch of money, it's about punishing a corporation when it does wrong.
I don't blame anyone who decides to boycott Valve over this. The tough part is that if you don't agree to the new terms, you lose access to any games you've bought on Steam.
Regardless of how many class action suits actually pay out for the plaintiffs, this is still a restriction of consumer rights. Class action suits aren't about getting the consumers a bunch of money, it's about punishing a corporation when it does wrong.
I don't blame anyone who decides to boycott Valve over this. The tough part is that if you don't agree to the new terms, you lose access to any games you've bought on Steam.
Valve have proven themselves to be pretty cool guys and gals thus far. I'm willing to roll with this.
Seems to be interesting timing with the amount of complaints made over games bought during the summer sale that the customer's can't get to work. More aggravating is that your options are to accept the terms or forfeit all of the games you purchased. While many class action lawsuits are frivolous, all are not. Taking the stance that "We don't feel these lawsuits are in our customes best interests so we won't allow them" is shady at best.
At least they're willing to pay up to 10k in individual litigation fees. Still shady.
At least they're willing to pay up to 10k in individual litigation fees. Still shady.
@Paul Stone
A great reputation does not turn the bad things you do into good things. You should not accept your rights being taken away just because you trust the person doing it. You should be disappointed and concerned, but I won't try and convince you to leave Steam entirely. Just don't roll over and ignore this.
A great reputation does not turn the bad things you do into good things. You should not accept your rights being taken away just because you trust the person doing it. You should be disappointed and concerned, but I won't try and convince you to leave Steam entirely. Just don't roll over and ignore this.
I expect better from Valve. If the class-action litigation is pointless, that's for the courts to decide, not corporations.
hmmmm... while I dont think there is any way this could have a positive spin put on it, I dont forsee valve ever doing anything that would require a class action law suit. Still crappy, but I'm not going to get up in arms about it.
What shocks me here is that Sony, despite their general propensity towards assholism, saw fit to include an opt-out provision, but Valve has not.
In all seriousness, does anyone know the legal dept contact info for Valve? I'd like to contact them and find out if that is possible. I'd really like to see the gaming press put the screws to them. It would be ridiculously hypocritical to go up Sony's ass for this and give Valve the pass.
In all seriousness, does anyone know the legal dept contact info for Valve? I'd like to contact them and find out if that is possible. I'd really like to see the gaming press put the screws to them. It would be ridiculously hypocritical to go up Sony's ass for this and give Valve the pass.
I think the change most note-worthy here, which I think is probably more in line with why the EULA changed at all, is the change to ownership. Probably in response to the recent decision in the EU courts that digital property needs to have an avenue of resale, they changed the ownership rights to just a license. I'm sure it was like this before, but now they have it worded properly to avoid any backlash that the EU hearing could have brought about. Pretty smart, valve. Way to turn a great decision into something that can cause more harm to the consumer.
Awww man. I was really looking forward to getting $0.99 at some point in the future for some lawsuit I didn't know was happening but was included in for some reason.
@flintmech
I'm not going to pretend I think this is a *good* thing, but nor do I see any reason to be personally concerned by it. I'm not going to stop using Steam, which means I've already agreed to their terms. That means I can now either relax and casually monitor the situation, or I can throw my arms up despite having already approved their conditions by hitting the "I Agree" button.
I'm not going to pretend I think this is a *good* thing, but nor do I see any reason to be personally concerned by it. I'm not going to stop using Steam, which means I've already agreed to their terms. That means I can now either relax and casually monitor the situation, or I can throw my arms up despite having already approved their conditions by hitting the "I Agree" button.
"I'm sure it was like this before, but now they have it worded properly to avoid any backlash that the EU hearing could have brought about. Pretty smart, valve. Way to turn a great decision into something that can cause more harm to the consumer."
This is what I said when the EU decision was announced. It sounds all fine and dandy, but I'm betting the response to it will make us yearn for the old days....
This is what I said when the EU decision was announced. It sounds all fine and dandy, but I'm betting the response to it will make us yearn for the old days....
People forget about this little gem a lot too:
"YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY."
You'll find that under "12. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER." of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.
That little nugget of awesome has been in there for a long time. In fact it was there before Sony did their no class action thing.
"YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY."
You'll find that under "12. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER." of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.
That little nugget of awesome has been in there for a long time. In fact it was there before Sony did their no class action thing.
Step 1: Don't sign up to Steam.
Step 2: Get several other people not to sign up.
Step 3: Since you haven't agreed to the new EULA, you haven't waived your right to a class action suit. So join the other people who haven't signed and enter a class action suit for your right to class action suit. Make sure to mention you have collectively spent X gazillion dollars on games for the service and that Valve is strongarming you into signing the new agreement by holding these games ransom.
Step 4: Whatever happens, don't settle.
Step 5: Win suit. Create a precedent for overturning the clause in other services. Gain an insane amount of money, which translates to $2.59 when divided between all who entered the suit. Use money to buy a game on gog.com.
Step 6: Cut a hole in the box.
Step 2: Get several other people not to sign up.
Step 3: Since you haven't agreed to the new EULA, you haven't waived your right to a class action suit. So join the other people who haven't signed and enter a class action suit for your right to class action suit. Make sure to mention you have collectively spent X gazillion dollars on games for the service and that Valve is strongarming you into signing the new agreement by holding these games ransom.
Step 4: Whatever happens, don't settle.
Step 5: Win suit. Create a precedent for overturning the clause in other services. Gain an insane amount of money, which translates to $2.59 when divided between all who entered the suit. Use money to buy a game on gog.com.
Step 6: Cut a hole in the box.
If these companies want to tempt the courts into throwing out all shrink-wrap licences and finally declare that clicking "I agree" is not the same as a signature, more power to them. It is long past time for this bullshit to stop.
Lawyers are the problem. Always have been, always will be. Unless laws are made for THEM. When will that start?
I'm glad to see at least SOME disappointment with Valve in this thread. People are usually quick to drink their Kool-Aid and dismiss any wrongdoing.
"the terms set forth still have the nice benefit of stamping out any mass disagreements that users might have"
Now that's just plain hyperbolic. Not that I agree VALVe is in the right here, but this statement makes it seem like you'll get mass banned for voicing a complaint on the Steam forums. I ask you: How many class action suits are really brought up each year against game companies? How many are actually based on the terms of service? The general user won't suffer unless something truly cruel happens, in which case a court may not be the best place to settle it.
Now that's just plain hyperbolic. Not that I agree VALVe is in the right here, but this statement makes it seem like you'll get mass banned for voicing a complaint on the Steam forums. I ask you: How many class action suits are really brought up each year against game companies? How many are actually based on the terms of service? The general user won't suffer unless something truly cruel happens, in which case a court may not be the best place to settle it.
@amtalx
The amount of people genuinely defending Valve is tiny compared to the number of people mocking imaginary apologists.
The amount of people genuinely defending Valve is tiny compared to the number of people mocking imaginary apologists.
I for one love valve, so far I have had one or two issues crop up and a ticket to valve has resolved them within 24-72hrs. So as far as I am concerned by me, so far, they have done no wrong, in fact they have an excellent track record in my book.
Still I can't say that this doesn't disappoint me (checks double negative count, looks good). I have always found questionable actions like this* to be highly suspect.
This is going to take a good long think.
*Yeah Class actions usually benefit little more than the lawyers involved. Usually we see the actual complainants get less than chicken scratch by comparison. However class action lawsuits aren't about making money they are about taking money. They usually serve as a punishment to a company not as a means for those involved (lawyers sadly excluded) from becoming independently wealthy. Personally I would love to see a cap put on what lawyers can take from class actions but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.
Still I can't say that this doesn't disappoint me (checks double negative count, looks good). I have always found questionable actions like this* to be highly suspect.
This is going to take a good long think.
*Yeah Class actions usually benefit little more than the lawyers involved. Usually we see the actual complainants get less than chicken scratch by comparison. However class action lawsuits aren't about making money they are about taking money. They usually serve as a punishment to a company not as a means for those involved (lawyers sadly excluded) from becoming independently wealthy. Personally I would love to see a cap put on what lawyers can take from class actions but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.
For clarification when I said "This" is in reference not to class actions but the attempt to block the right to pursue them as a potential course of action.
The question of duress also seems to crop up in my mind. They really have everyone over a barrel. One has no choice but to either submit to their new terms OR abandon all your purchased games. duress tends to invalidate things right out of the gate...... so ............
and right after I pre-ordered Borderlands 2 no less ......
The question of duress also seems to crop up in my mind. They really have everyone over a barrel. One has no choice but to either submit to their new terms OR abandon all your purchased games. duress tends to invalidate things right out of the gate...... so ............
and right after I pre-ordered Borderlands 2 no less ......
Good timing, considering the bullshit that just happened to netflix.
Sued for not doing something someone was worried they might do, and now they have to erase our histories if we aren't currently subscribed and can't use them for recommendations.
Sued for not doing something someone was worried they might do, and now they have to erase our histories if we aren't currently subscribed and can't use them for recommendations.
Scuffles: I've never personally worked on a class action suit, but the attorneys fees should be based on reasonable expenses and time if the court is deciding. Settlements are, of course, always a different beast. The fees are often so high because these things can go on for years, racking up hundreds of billable hours for multiple attorneys, plus their staff.
Still, I think legal fees are too high and need to come down, which actually would go towards your capping idea. The good news is the US is awash with attorneys who can't find jobs and are starting their own firms that usually charge lower fees. It will take time for the industry to get to where it needs to be, but it's going to have to change. Clients no longer pay for the work of first, and even second, year associates, and most lawyers starting now will never make the six figure law firm salaries that justify the high tuition cost of three years of law school. Schools will have to close, tuitions will have to come down, and fees for legal professionals will come down with it. Except of course for the gigantic corporate firms, I think.
Still, I think legal fees are too high and need to come down, which actually would go towards your capping idea. The good news is the US is awash with attorneys who can't find jobs and are starting their own firms that usually charge lower fees. It will take time for the industry to get to where it needs to be, but it's going to have to change. Clients no longer pay for the work of first, and even second, year associates, and most lawyers starting now will never make the six figure law firm salaries that justify the high tuition cost of three years of law school. Schools will have to close, tuitions will have to come down, and fees for legal professionals will come down with it. Except of course for the gigantic corporate firms, I think.
They are right. Any time anybody sues, lawyers benefit but often the victims do too. Class-action lawsuits just benefit lawyers. Also they just encourage people who may not be grieved to jump in for some loot. I've been asked to join a couple even though I didn't feel aggrieved in anyway. This was just minor stuff too.
I wish there were more general regulations against class action lawsuits. If it involves more than 100 people it is just bullshit and only the lawyers see any money from it. So, a limit of 500 would be a good start toward class action reform. I support Sony and Valve for doing what they can and I hope it works.
Can anyone tell me how they prove it was you that intentionally clicked the agree button? if not, I don't understand why everyone's panties are in a twist.
"my dog must have clicked it while I made a sandwich. You probably should have a way of verifying its me before you have me 'sign a contract' with a button click."
There you go. Now you can participate in a class action suit against valve. You're welcome.
"my dog must have clicked it while I made a sandwich. You probably should have a way of verifying its me before you have me 'sign a contract' with a button click."
There you go. Now you can participate in a class action suit against valve. You're welcome.
If anyone is interested, there's a petition asking Valve to provide an opt-out as Sony did:
http://www.change.org/petitions/valve-corporation-provide-an-opt-out-for-section-12-of-the-new-steam-subscriber-agreement
http://www.change.org/petitions/valve-corporation-provide-an-opt-out-for-section-12-of-the-new-steam-subscriber-agreement
all gaming company's seem to be making real d-bag moves, like they know we're gonna buy no matter what, cause we're dumb. no matter your IQ, your social status, your love for games. you are a fool, a cash dispensary to be milked not cherished. its bad enough that we ignore what goes on in our government (look in the sky at those trails and then at your trees has they die to know what im talking about) but gaming is something we say we all love. its sad that people would rather keep their job then to keep their humanity. im tired of getting less when i pay more, tired of companys like capcom, blizzard, sony and even nintendo pulling shit. i want to game til i die hopefully with someone i love, but if we keep taking it in the ass gaming as we know it will surely die. im sorry if i jumped points im not a writer and my grammar is worrisome. im just a concerned american gamer. i love you guy with all my heart even the ones who will bash, hopefully we can sit down together and break bread. thanks for reading, have a great day.
Could this have anything to do with the British courts ruling that Digital Licenses could be sold and traded?
Just wondering... Probably not...>.>;
Just wondering... Probably not...>.>;
I'm gonna be honest with you guys. This will affect no one here. Lawsuits are what's wrong with this country. People getting millions of dollars because they spilled hot coffee on themselves that they (on their own) put in between their legs with no lid while driving. This is why companies have to protect themselves. Look up some of those kind of lawsuits, you will laugh your ass off then cry knowing that there are people like that in this world. It's really sad....
@deadbody
Sorry to break this to you, but a quick read would explain away your concerns with contrails. It's a matter of physics, not conspiracies. Unless your concern is with the condensation of water at altitude.
@everyonemissingthepoint
Class action suits are not and never were intended as a means of enriching the class. They are intended as a means to punish a company punitively for wrongdoing. The fact that lawyers are enriched in the process is an unfortunate but necessary (I'll gladly entertain alternative ideas) side effect. Take them away and our only option for recourse is angry commenting on forums. We all know how well that works.
Sorry to break this to you, but a quick read would explain away your concerns with contrails. It's a matter of physics, not conspiracies. Unless your concern is with the condensation of water at altitude.
@everyonemissingthepoint
Class action suits are not and never were intended as a means of enriching the class. They are intended as a means to punish a company punitively for wrongdoing. The fact that lawyers are enriched in the process is an unfortunate but necessary (I'll gladly entertain alternative ideas) side effect. Take them away and our only option for recourse is angry commenting on forums. We all know how well that works.
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