To us, the terms "Japanese" and "Western" when applied to videogames tend to be nothing more than quick indicators of a game's style. However, Square Enix boss Yoichi Wada has noted that the terms carry a very different meaning in Japan, with the term "Youge" being used to describe so-called Western games with derision and discrimination.
"Even now, there have been people in Japan using the label youge- (Western games) with a terribly discriminatory meaning," says Wada. "I'd like them to try it once. If they play it once, they'd realize how incorrect that label is."
As the Japanese game market suffers from a lack of creativity and falling sales, it's amusing to see a sector of Japanese gamers employ age-old xenophobia against a booming and successful market that has been leading the industry for many years now. Still, if they want to deny themselves some awesome Western games out of little more than infantile prejudice, that's totally up to them.
Got to give Square Enix props for trying to broaden its audience's perspective, though.
Jim Sterling serves as reviews editor for Destructoid.com, head of the Podtoid podcast, and produces a number of news stories, original features, one-of-a-kind videos. With his passionate argumentative style, controversial opinions, harsh delivery, and dedication to brutal honesty Sterling is a name that you can't help but recognize.
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Contest:
12:00 PM on 12.07.2009
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I'm working on a cartoon called Danger Mutt or Danger Dog (not sure of the title yet)...fingers crossed, huh?
So now that westerners are capable of making pure awesomeness the Japanese are jealous? ...BAH!!!
teh ghey
I don't buy this.
The reason I am talking about this is because I hate Japanese games. I seriously don't know if I own any, even one. I played some Mario when I was a lot younger and it was the cool thing to do, but as a PC gamer from a young age I have always been playing Western titles and I look at something like Final Fantasy and Zelda as childish kid's games. I am sure many, MANY here do not agree, but I have played them as recently as the Wii and they just seem like toys to me, whereas a game like Deus Ex is for adults. That is not a console vs. PC thing either because the PC style of gaming moved to consoles as well with the Xbox and such, so it's more a Japanese vs. Western distinction to me.
I don't think it is racism for me to say "oh that's a Japanese game I have no interest." I do it all the time, and again I doubt I own even one Japanese game. Crap, not true! I own the Resident Evil PC ports. Ok, so that's one... anyway I doubt I own another. The point is this is because there are fundemental design differences between the two and it has nothing to do with their race or my feelings toward their nation. So if Japanese people say the same about Western games, well... I am not really offended, because I do the same thing to them.
I don't buy this"
UHHHHH this couldn't be more horribly wrong.
Last Remnant is one of the most obtuse and overly complex games in Square's entire history. None of it is ever explained outright in the game and it's left up to the player to figure out how most of the game works.
It's also actually quite awesome for those who take the time to learn it.
Also, I like how the US pretends that Japan's the only one hiding behind xenophobia. The US is just as bad with its generalizations of games by region.
Japanese games have their place in the world and I for one take an equally judicious approach to all genres from all places. A good game can literally come from anywhere and as a gamer you are really limiting your experiences to deny that good games aren't defined by origin but by the experience.
I completely agree. I grew up on both spectrum's. Console and PC. Games like Monkey Island, Loom, X-wing/TieFighter are the games that caused me to lean more towards PC gaming. PC games were always ahead of their time.
And of course Deus Ex is absolutely amazing. Even though they made a PS2 port all the PC gamers know it was better on PC. =P
As for owning a Japanese game! I do nawt. =D
Did we even play the same game? What you are calling overly complex I'm guessing I'm factoring into "bad design." And yes, I did play it, beat it actually, but really didn't think it was a good game at all.
I've never been much of an East Vs. West or Console vs. PC guy, mostly because I'm grown up enough to realize that a lot of the design mindshare in games these days seems to come straight down the middle of these various paradigms. If fact, that's where most of the best games are born.
Those that want to just see something like Final Fantasy as a Japanese thing apparently missed out on the DnD and Wizardy overtones the original NES release took on. The series really didn't start to come into its own until the third and fourth installment and most of the series tropes begane in the second game.
Final Fantasy continues to draw on some of DnD's mythological interpretations and beastiary. Soulflayers, Bahamut being a dragon (when in myth he's really a whale)? That's DnD's influence right there and there's lots of it to be found. Mages in Final Fantasy also had very limited use of magic... which is markedly similar to Wizardry.
Then there were the dungeons. Most westnern RPGs of the 80s and earlier just threw you right into them. Japanese RPGs made you travel a bit to get to them, in the end though, high encounter rates in both. Vector map or overhead view, you got fucked with a lot.
But eventually FF came to have a lot of its own ideas. Industrialization in a fantasy setting became prevalent in the series. Job evolution evolved into being able to learn multiple professions (FFIII, FFV, FFT, FFXI) or just plain being able to learn anything with characters that had a few unique specializations.
Many class in the series also drew from western concepts, but Blue Mage, Gambler amoung others are uniquely Final Fantasy.
And while Final Fantasy has skewed to linear narratives, the freedom of Final Fantasy has been from within the robust skill systems we've found in FFV onward.
Western gamers sometimes overinflate the meaning of "moral choice" in RPGs, I'd say your choices are a bit more important in a Bethesda game than a BioWare game. In an Elder Scrolls games, choice actually matters, in a Bioware game you're still headed to the same endgame no matter what you say (sounds strangely Japanese for a Western game), the only difference being that you might lose or gain a party member for what you said/did. Japanese RPGs aren't strangers to that. Aside from that, the only difference was the ending, something easily retconned and not really meaningful to the full experience of a Bioware game like it would be in Elder Scrolls or even some of the Shin Megami Tensei titles, which interestingly veer west as much as they do east. Those games sometimes take the Law/Neutral/Chaos thing really far.
So I tend to take it all with a grain of salt. PC gamers love to make a big to-do about how different what they play is when in reality there's so much influence that has gone around from PC to Console and back, as well as from east to west and back.
The first Final Fantasy game is actually the only one I like, for exactly those reasons.
When speaking the of the massive difference between console and PC gaming, and the one being driven by Japan while the other the West, I was specifically talking about the pre-Xbox era. In those days you would be a fool to argue otherwise.
Now-a-days you are right, both have influenced each other a lot more and consoles are just was West-driven as PC is for the most part.
As for your RPG comparisons they don't really make much sense. Western and Japanese RPGs are completely different. Yes they both have dungeons, but the manner you traverse them and the methods of combat are completely seperate. As for choice (which by the way saying Bethesda games have more meaningful choices than Bioware games is the biggest laugh I got all week, thanks) that has never been a component of Japanese RPGs ever, and still is not as far as I know.
There has been very little innovation in Western genres either, it just seems like there has been to you because you probably weren't playing them 10 years ago because they weren't on Super Nintendo.
If anything Western RPGs and shooters have de-evolved.
I fail to see how Doom, Unreal Tournament, and Quake are better or more evolved than Half-Life 2: Episode Two, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, and BioShock.
^The Truth. The xenophobia card gets played way too often in videogame discussions.
I thought Last Remnant was rubbish. And as someone else said, that was what Square Enix thought western audience wanted.
But the Japanese deciding they don't want a game because it's western isn't any different from what Americans do. I work at Gamestop and tons of customers will put down a game because they hate "that weird Japanese crap". It's also the same as people whining about how all JRPGs contain this or contain that. Or about how certain people a couple posts above me claim there is "little innovation" in Japanese games over the last decade.
I've never been a fan of bad action movies, so the western games that are permeated by the themes and aesthetics that most often come off as second-rate sci-fi really don't appeal to me. I can only take so many massive armored shoulder pads, leather jackets, ridiculous machismo, brooding anti-heroes and end-of-the-world storylines.
What is disappointing is when someone decides that /all/ Western games are this way or /all/ Japanese games are one way. There's a lot of stagnation in the industry now, but it comes from everywhere.
Well, we can randomly pick games to compare if you like, but the core aspect of it is that old shooters required you to find keys, navigate maze-like corridors and find your way in open enviornments and had health bars and power bars you needed to manage, plus actual ammo management. Today shooters are all about shooting, not knowing exactly where to go at all times is considered a flaw and we have arrows and blinking lights directing us like monkeys and the games are so linear they are basically interactive movies, plus regenerating health removes health management, ammo is abundant powers recharge automatically and the games are on top of that much easier on average than they used to be.
No, he couldn't be more right. There is an EGM article about gaming in Japan Remnant and they interview the guys making it and one of the blatantly goes on about how the making of the game from the ground up was all influenced by what Western gamers, especially Americans, enjoyed in an RPG.
It's easy to turn what you are saying around and point out how many Japanese games are inspired by second-rate Anime, permeated by effeminate male leads, tentacles, large eyes, and flashing lights. Personally I have never found any of those aesthetics to be very appealing, and FF has always been the exception. I can understand the cultural differences lead to different preferences, but ultimately capitalism mandates that the games are designed for mass appeal, and right now western games have that covered. I'm sure Squeenix would like to make one style of game that will appeal to both audiences equally, but with a few exceptions I don't think that's in the cards.
I was turning around what someone else was saying about Japanese games. Sure, there's a lot of generic Japanese games that do contain those themes. No Argument. But there's also a massive number of Western games that are all generic space marine or generic open-world crap. It's really identical on both sides of the fence.
There are plenty of Japanese games that have mass appeal and are not filled with effeminate male leads: Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Okami, Ninja Gaiden, any dragon quest/warrior game, Ico, the list goes on. In fact, more than half of destructoid's list of top 50 games are Japanese games, most of which do not carry these elements. It's unfair to generalize "all japanese games are this" or "all western games are this". That's what I'm saying.
I can absolutely understad the evolution of "western" games being only parallel to "eastern" during the 90's, but the way so many gamers in the west jump on the anti-japan bandwagon solely because of where the game originates from is astounding to me. Especially when they claim that some of their favorite games are of a said eastern genre, and contain TONS of the tropes they claim to hate (FF 7 anyone?), I find the hypocrisy of this whole east v. west thing ridiculous.
I absolutely hate western games. I find them all boring and uninspired. Sure, occasionally something like good comes out of XBLA/PSN/WiiWare once in a blue moon, but other than that, none of them appeal to me. FPSes feel like a chore to play, and WRPGs bore me to tears. Sad thing is, Western games rarely ever go outside those two genres, and the ones that do are simply done better by eastern games. See, Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter/Blazblue.
Of course, this is all IMO.
Katamari, Patapon, SMG, Ace Attorny, Mother 3, and the Wii in general aren't innovative? Speaking of Mother 3, the obscene amount of decent games that never get imports over here also deserve a look since many of them are innovative as well.
If there's one thing that I've seen on DToid way too much, it's a weird anti-Japanese attitude. I'm sick of people using the term JRPG with derision, or claiming that Japan isn't relavent anymore. These sorts of broad generalizations help know one and only serve to marginalize an industry which could only profit from increased inter-regional communication.
Games have been stagnating because our wallets have repeatedly said we'll accept rehashes and tiny bits of "innovation" to see more of what we've already gotten. In a way, I do feel like long running series are important and should stick around, but it'd be great if everyone pulled a Tim Schafer and moved onto something new each time. At the very least, something creative/different/good (pick two) would come around more often.
Wait, so your saying a game is bad because it's simple? That it needs 8 different charts and menu before you can call it fun? I'm not one to argue over the pc being the true master of gaming, since I do in fact favor my PC over any other console if there is a decision that can be made. But to call something "childish" because it has a simplistic control scheme? That's just smug elitist there. If a game can have a more simplified experience that would not harm the actual game play at all, it should be done. If a game being simple made it "childish", there would be a lot less adults playing games like Rockband, which in all honesty probably has more adults playing it then children. "Drum kits aren't cheap."
I'm confused here, the very reasons you say you prefer western games over eastern is the direct reverse reason I prefer west over east. I hate how most Japanese rpgs, or even certain action/adventure games require you to practically have a guide to truly understand how their leveling system works. To get any of the good items you need some obscene pattern that you could never even attempt to guess without investing a large amount of time, or looking up walk throughs.
That's not saying I don't enjoy in depth mechanic ether. I will always love my rogue/ranger, Greater two weapon fighting build with improve critical and weapon focus rapier for that extra damage along, with 7d6 of sneak attack damage, but I'm not going to damn an entire genera because I find two button's "Childish". Not to mention that their where indeed games that had the depth you so desired during those console eras.
Now, I understand where your coming from though, a lot of the well know Japanese games where the "simple ones" as you stated, but then again, when is that not the case. Games that are easier to play sell better. It doesn't matter what system it's for. Bejeweled anyone?
@ Stinging Velvet
I do not think shooters and WRPGs have devolved, but shooters have reached "maturity" in which they cannot evolve any more. I think Deus Ex was the height of the evolution. WRPGs have evolved (although became more casual friendly) and I think WRPGs are trending towards making interpersonal relationships more important and going away from black and white morality and into shades of gray.
And the game represented by your avatar was a major evolutionary step.
There is more to depth than complexity. The entire mechanic of Mario is running and jumping, that is the limit of its gameplay and story. Zelda has some insanely easy puzzles and hack-n-slash gameplay, but its story is shallow and its world lacking in any social commentary or thought, it's just saturday morning cartoon style. Expand that to Final Fantasy and there is story depth, but at the same time the gaming mechanics are on auto-pilot. I played Final Fantasy VII all the way to the end and it felt like an interactive movie, which is fine if that is what you want, but it wasn't what I would call a mature gamer experience.
Your referrence to charts and menus is amusing but not what I was talking about. I want to explore the world and figure out where to go, how to do what I need to do, while also shooting dudes. Modern shooters are just SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT and follow the arrow. I want to explore a diverse and social commentary-filled world in RPGs and invest in the characters, choices and combat. I want to feel more involved, feel more invested, feel more at risk. Japanese games have always in my experienced centered around simplistic and fun gameplay, which I deem more for children and young adults.
Plus the character design and dialogue is often geared straight to children. Look at the big eyes on Link, the "yahoo!" Mario yells. It is just kid's stuff to me. I don't mean it offensively, that is just my take on it. I have no interest in watching Duck Tales now that I am in my late 20s and I also have no interest in playing Mario games.
and i tend to avoid those games. Zelda was nice, Mario was nice, but I'm not interested in playing those again anytime soon.
I don't think we go to the same Destructoid, because most of the games in the recent top 50 list were Japanese. If anything, it's about even.
Yes, the top-50 list was very japanese and console-centered. I was amazed to see Deus Ex and Civ3 on there, almost alone in their representation of the entire other gaming world that exists.