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@MasterBalls
He's obviously laying the blame on the hackers. He's just saying Sony will put more effort in piracy prevention and less in actually improving its service, which ultimately hurts the honest consumer.
To be honest, I'm not too sure about this point of view. Aren't Sony supposed to be doing internal research on this kind of thing in the first place? If a hacker exposes a hole in the system which Sony can patch, isn't he just doing free work for Sony?
He's obviously laying the blame on the hackers. He's just saying Sony will put more effort in piracy prevention and less in actually improving its service, which ultimately hurts the honest consumer.
To be honest, I'm not too sure about this point of view. Aren't Sony supposed to be doing internal research on this kind of thing in the first place? If a hacker exposes a hole in the system which Sony can patch, isn't he just doing free work for Sony?
@MasterBalls: Not at all. Sony has to do it. But they're going to do it at the cost of providing the best possible service to the consumer.
While I'm a proponent of open systems and in favor of consumers being allowed to do what they wish with the products that they purchase, the simple truth is that it's up to each designer to decide what works best for their system. The people who are at fault here are the ones who have taken it upon themselves to ignore that decision and do what they wish without regard to how it will affect people on a larger scale.
While I'm a proponent of open systems and in favor of consumers being allowed to do what they wish with the products that they purchase, the simple truth is that it's up to each designer to decide what works best for their system. The people who are at fault here are the ones who have taken it upon themselves to ignore that decision and do what they wish without regard to how it will affect people on a larger scale.
Sony was never really going to update the PS3 with anything big, anyway. So, this isn't punishing us too bad. An update is nothin'.
Now, the Ubisoft now-canceled DRM scheme...That was bad. That punished legitimate consumers.
Now, the Ubisoft now-canceled DRM scheme...That was bad. That punished legitimate consumers.
Conrad, you have voiced my opinion/frustration on this issue in its entirety. And that's why I love this site.
@Patriot Snake: I agree that the consumer should have the right to use the products they purchase in any way that they wish, even if that use is not one originally intended by the manufacturer. They own the product, after all.
Sony owns the network that the product in question connects to. That means they are within the right to deny access to units which do not conform to a standard which Sony determines. That standard exists to protect Sony's interests in regards to not only piracy but ensuring that all users of the network have a homogeneous experience.
When you break it down, these sorts of firmware updates do not actually violate the freedoms of the consumer to use the product in whatever way they choose. But just as you would lose any claim to warrantied services by performing maintenance or upgrades on any product produced by any manufacturer anywhere, in refusing to conform to the standard that the network requires you lose any claim to make use of that network.
Sony owns the network that the product in question connects to. That means they are within the right to deny access to units which do not conform to a standard which Sony determines. That standard exists to protect Sony's interests in regards to not only piracy but ensuring that all users of the network have a homogeneous experience.
When you break it down, these sorts of firmware updates do not actually violate the freedoms of the consumer to use the product in whatever way they choose. But just as you would lose any claim to warrantied services by performing maintenance or upgrades on any product produced by any manufacturer anywhere, in refusing to conform to the standard that the network requires you lose any claim to make use of that network.
@Conrad Zimmerman well you saved me a lot of typing and arguably said it more eloquently than I would have.
it would be hypocritical of me to criticise Pirates.
That said, this Firmware locks out the Piracy devices, nothing else.
I wouldn't consider people using them "honest" customers.
They're protecting their assets.
You lock your front door.
Are you screwing "Honest" burgulars. Extreme, and not fully applicable example. But I have no problem with them protecting their own assets.
The other OS thing was bullshit, Thanks Geohot.
This isn't removing previous functionality from your console, this is protecting themselves.
That said, this Firmware locks out the Piracy devices, nothing else.
I wouldn't consider people using them "honest" customers.
They're protecting their assets.
You lock your front door.
Are you screwing "Honest" burgulars. Extreme, and not fully applicable example. But I have no problem with them protecting their own assets.
The other OS thing was bullshit, Thanks Geohot.
This isn't removing previous functionality from your console, this is protecting themselves.
I'm really glad about this. As you've said Conrad, despite being of the opinion that you should be able to use products purchased however you want, I also agree that it's sony's right and perogative to remove your access to the PSN.
This is exactly what i expected to happen.
This is exactly what i expected to happen.
@Aurain: Let's continue with your burglar analogy for a moment. When your house gets robbed, it isn't just a matter of locking the front door next time. Hell, for as long as it took for this thing to be cracked, they might as well have been cutting through a steel door.
You call the police (paid by your tax dollars). You call your insurance agent (who then raises your rates). You call that phone sex operator because she's the only one who can soothe your sense of loss ($2.99 a minute buys a lot of healing).
The point being that there are all sorts of expenses that Sony would otherwise not incur were it not for the actions of these people. Maybe it's a few hours spent by a programmer. And then there's the time of the people who have to test the update to make sure that there's absolutely no unexpected impact on the rest of the network. And then there's John Koller, some of whose time is now spent informing users of the upgrade.
These expenses are passed down to the consumer in one way or another. All consumers, not just those who decided they didn't want to play by the same rules as everyone else.
You call the police (paid by your tax dollars). You call your insurance agent (who then raises your rates). You call that phone sex operator because she's the only one who can soothe your sense of loss ($2.99 a minute buys a lot of healing).
The point being that there are all sorts of expenses that Sony would otherwise not incur were it not for the actions of these people. Maybe it's a few hours spent by a programmer. And then there's the time of the people who have to test the update to make sure that there's absolutely no unexpected impact on the rest of the network. And then there's John Koller, some of whose time is now spent informing users of the upgrade.
These expenses are passed down to the consumer in one way or another. All consumers, not just those who decided they didn't want to play by the same rules as everyone else.
Oh well. I think this means I'll be ending my relationship with PSN. There aren't really any compelling reasons to keep it that aren't on XBL, and I can't think of a PS3 game I want to play online for the foreseeable future. I suppose the upside is I won't have to sit through any more 15 minute software updates, haha.
Ah, joy. Yet again, the next time I go to play something, I'll see the update, set it to download, go off and do something else, and by the time I get back to it, I won't want to play anymore. Much love, modern times.
@amtalx I'm confused by the complaints about the long firmware updates. I realize that they could be annoying when you want to jump into a game ..... but ...
Its not like you have to run the update ? Doesn't it give you the option to decline and run it later, so you can play your game now?
And who cares if it lasts 15-20min updating ..... do people really sit there staring at the progress bar? I dunno about you but when something is going to sit there doing nothing while it does something for a while, I'll go do something else to pass the time.
Its not like you have to run the update ? Doesn't it give you the option to decline and run it later, so you can play your game now?
And who cares if it lasts 15-20min updating ..... do people really sit there staring at the progress bar? I dunno about you but when something is going to sit there doing nothing while it does something for a while, I'll go do something else to pass the time.
What I want to know is when are they going to release an update that allows you to sign in on multiple PSN accounts at a time on one console? It'd be nice if I could play Castle Crashers locally with my friends, and each of us could level up our own characters.
Sooo, can we have OtherOS back now or what's the big fucking problem now? When the Jailbreak told us one thing it's that OtherOS was never a real problem.
Now, I've never used OtherOS and I won't because I simply don't have the need to do so but many others used it and the got screwed for the completely wrong reasons.
Now, I've never used OtherOS and I won't because I simply don't have the need to do so but many others used it and the got screwed for the completely wrong reasons.
@Patriot Snake: Jailbreaking the iphone isn't different but piracy isn't such a big problem on a platform where only very cheap projects are released. You can't compare an iphone game which costs next to nothing to make to a AAA title. In terms of percentages both are equally hurt I guess but it's a major difference if you lose 10 thousand dollars or millions.
And the homebrewing scene is much more interesting on an iphone. Usually you always have your iphone with you so someone with a jailbreaked iphone has much more opportunities to try a homebrew project. Now on a PS3 on the other hand, who uses homebrew projects? Noone? Because every sane person is using a pc? PS3 jailbreaking is just for piracy, noone can really argue with that.
The only thing where jailbreaking the PS3 could be interesting is when move is released. Geeks love to play around with new hardware. But with no drivers released this could take a while.
And the homebrewing scene is much more interesting on an iphone. Usually you always have your iphone with you so someone with a jailbreaked iphone has much more opportunities to try a homebrew project. Now on a PS3 on the other hand, who uses homebrew projects? Noone? Because every sane person is using a pc? PS3 jailbreaking is just for piracy, noone can really argue with that.
The only thing where jailbreaking the PS3 could be interesting is when move is released. Geeks love to play around with new hardware. But with no drivers released this could take a while.
@Patriot Snake: The same argument applies for me. People who jailbreak iPhones are in the right to do so. Apple would be in the right to deny them access to Apple services as it relates to the iPhone if they were to do so (AT&T as well, for that matter, though they probably wouldn't without strong-arming).
Now, I don't know all of the specifics and I'm not much of a user of Apple's products. Without having researched, I never received the impression that Apple was in a position to do a whole lot about jailbreaking, except to deny iOS updates and remove functionality for some apps, which seems counterintuitive for a device which users were just taking to other networks anyway. It appeared that their only recourse was to challenge consumer rights in a court of law, which ultimately hasn't worked out for them. None of which should make iPhone piracy acceptable, but there's relatively little Apple can actually do about it in the current situation.
But it will still cost consumers in spite of the fact that Apple doesn't have this recourse. While it's hard to imagine Apple products being reduced in price simply if jailbreaking never existed and therefore they never lost money on the deal (before counting lost revenue from pirated Apps, I bet the legal expenses alone would make us crap our pants), I bet we'd all have better iPhones for our money, even if in a marginal sense.
That's not the position that Sony is in, however, and they're exercising their right to prevent users from using PSN who violate the standard. They have to do so to protect their bottom line from multiple fronts.
Now, I don't know all of the specifics and I'm not much of a user of Apple's products. Without having researched, I never received the impression that Apple was in a position to do a whole lot about jailbreaking, except to deny iOS updates and remove functionality for some apps, which seems counterintuitive for a device which users were just taking to other networks anyway. It appeared that their only recourse was to challenge consumer rights in a court of law, which ultimately hasn't worked out for them. None of which should make iPhone piracy acceptable, but there's relatively little Apple can actually do about it in the current situation.
But it will still cost consumers in spite of the fact that Apple doesn't have this recourse. While it's hard to imagine Apple products being reduced in price simply if jailbreaking never existed and therefore they never lost money on the deal (before counting lost revenue from pirated Apps, I bet the legal expenses alone would make us crap our pants), I bet we'd all have better iPhones for our money, even if in a marginal sense.
That's not the position that Sony is in, however, and they're exercising their right to prevent users from using PSN who violate the standard. They have to do so to protect their bottom line from multiple fronts.
@Conrad,
The only thing I think you haven't covered is the potential for LOST money if they DON'T try to fix the mod-chip issue.
If this thing truly is as easy to use as the R4, then I think it's impossible to deny that it could cause Sony (and other developers) SERIOUS money down the road if they leave it be.
The only thing I think you haven't covered is the potential for LOST money if they DON'T try to fix the mod-chip issue.
If this thing truly is as easy to use as the R4, then I think it's impossible to deny that it could cause Sony (and other developers) SERIOUS money down the road if they leave it be.
As if I didn't have enough reasons to despise pirates, now I have to sit through *another* ps3 update thanks to them. Thanks guys.
@Patriot Snake: And that's why it's such a bad thing for the standard consumer. Hackers will continue to work around what are essentially band-aids. And then Sony will go through the process again. The cycle perpetuates itself. But every time it does, it costs Sony a little bit more money and a little bit more time.
All of which ultimately adds up to hurting consumers who paid for the same product as a troublesome minority who have decided that they're better than other people because they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Make no mistake. If everyone who jailbreaks their PS3 elects not to receive this update and not to circumvent it to use a service for which they have effectively given up any privilege to -- if there's a magnanimous outpouring of personal responsibility and accountability and both parties can agree now to go their separate ways without further intrusion -- we don't really have a problem. But we both know better, don't we?
All of which ultimately adds up to hurting consumers who paid for the same product as a troublesome minority who have decided that they're better than other people because they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Make no mistake. If everyone who jailbreaks their PS3 elects not to receive this update and not to circumvent it to use a service for which they have effectively given up any privilege to -- if there's a magnanimous outpouring of personal responsibility and accountability and both parties can agree now to go their separate ways without further intrusion -- we don't really have a problem. But we both know better, don't we?
I'm glad that Sony has fixed this move by irresponsible pirate hackers. And i'm happy to see a lot of fellow gamers standing by Sony's side to stop this hack tool from taking root on the console. This hack will undoubtedly encourage piracy and deprive the hard work of Sony and developersllow hackers to destroy gaming in the guise of homebrew and jailbreaking.
The Playstation 3 is a value added hig tech console that has a robust free online system and doesn't need to be jailbreaked.
The Playstation 3 is a value added hig tech console that has a robust free online system and doesn't need to be jailbreaked.
@Patriot Snake
As a gamer, i am dissapointed to hear thse words from you. You are a Playstation 3 owner right? Then you should support Sony on this. Jailbreaking is nothing but piracy, regardless of what machines it is on. I hate to say this but you don't deserve to own a Playstation 3 and a shame to all Playstation 3 owners.
As a gamer, i am dissapointed to hear thse words from you. You are a Playstation 3 owner right? Then you should support Sony on this. Jailbreaking is nothing but piracy, regardless of what machines it is on. I hate to say this but you don't deserve to own a Playstation 3 and a shame to all Playstation 3 owners.
I'm pretty sure you don't legally own the console upon purchase, you buy a lease to use it. Sony has the right to change or remove any functionality as and when it sees fit.
Check sonys website and you will see this is true.
Hell, if Sony wanted to they could brick your console for breaking the terms and conditions of usage.
Check sonys website and you will see this is true.
Hell, if Sony wanted to they could brick your console for breaking the terms and conditions of usage.
@DinnertimeNinja: Absolutely true, and it's a point that I've specifically strayed away from. The "lost revenue" argument when it pertains to software piracy is one that I don't really know how to feel about. I have to question how many people who choose to pirate games ever would have spent the money to purchase them in the first place.
I know that there are people who have the means and interest required to purchase a product and then choose to pirate it instead. But what method do you use to determine such a thing? The industry parades numbers in regards to the number of times a game is downloaded as if it could ever be a concrete indication of revenue they otherwise might have earned. They can't account for multiple downloads by the same person, people who download the game and then decide to make a purchase or users physically distributing copies of the game.
Would these numbers make a considerable difference? Perhaps not. What I do know is that, from my experience in retail, the average person shoplifts simply because they have the opportunity to do so and often does so with little regard for what it is they are stealing. I can't imagine human nature to be so different in a digital environment.
I know that there are people who have the means and interest required to purchase a product and then choose to pirate it instead. But what method do you use to determine such a thing? The industry parades numbers in regards to the number of times a game is downloaded as if it could ever be a concrete indication of revenue they otherwise might have earned. They can't account for multiple downloads by the same person, people who download the game and then decide to make a purchase or users physically distributing copies of the game.
Would these numbers make a considerable difference? Perhaps not. What I do know is that, from my experience in retail, the average person shoplifts simply because they have the opportunity to do so and often does so with little regard for what it is they are stealing. I can't imagine human nature to be so different in a digital environment.
@epic-koryuken
u mad?
@Romo Metaxxas
are you working for sony or something? you are taking this way too personally
u mad?
@Romo Metaxxas
are you working for sony or something? you are taking this way too personally
Mediocre:
me·di·o·cre
–adjective
Of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
me·di·o·cre
–adjective
Of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
Meanwhile, I hope to see sony pinch that stick out their asses and push a FW update that lets me install Linux on a slim. If I can take a PS3 and a Monitor somewhere to do some network testing and the like, I'd be a happy boy.
Doing the above, would also spare sony from having pissed off people with legit reasons to circumvent their hardware. Once they removed the Nix support on the phat PS3's, they begged for the PS3 to be blasted wide open.
Doing the above, would also spare sony from having pissed off people with legit reasons to circumvent their hardware. Once they removed the Nix support on the phat PS3's, they begged for the PS3 to be blasted wide open.
@romo
Are you still here? You're overtly brainwashed view of Sony is sickening.
Just because patriot disagreed with you, he isn't entitled to a video games console? Thats just dumb dude.
Are you still here? You're overtly brainwashed view of Sony is sickening.
Just because patriot disagreed with you, he isn't entitled to a video games console? Thats just dumb dude.
I would understand hacking the system in order to play import games but Sony made the PS3 region free so that's no issue. I fear we may lose that feature in the next generation when we should be moving toward it. People suck.
I love it when people say that they'll buy another PS3 just so that they can play free games without screwing up their legit system. Is it really worth it to pay that much damn money for another PS3, a larger hard-drive and whatever else just so you can get free copies of games that weren't even worth dealing with in the first place? I mean, hell, your still going to have to pay for whatever games you want to use the online functions for, and considering more and more games are shafting the single-player experience (perhaps for that very reason)...
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if a game isn't worth paying for, it isn't worth playing either. Yeah, I can't wait to jailbreak my PS3 just so I can play free copies of Kane & Lynch 2, Mafia 2, HAWX 2 and all the other utter dreck that passes for entertainment these days.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but if a game isn't worth paying for, it isn't worth playing either. Yeah, I can't wait to jailbreak my PS3 just so I can play free copies of Kane & Lynch 2, Mafia 2, HAWX 2 and all the other utter dreck that passes for entertainment these days.
@patriot snake
I Fucking knew it. Everything that dude writes is like being indoctrinated. He makes sexual chocolate look like a 360 fanboy.
Where's the ban hammer?
I Fucking knew it. Everything that dude writes is like being indoctrinated. He makes sexual chocolate look like a 360 fanboy.
Where's the ban hammer?
Also, Romo for the lolz! Everybody deserves a console and we deserve to use it however we want.
I'm not on the modchip side, however. As someone who knows how to program potentially malicious code, I'm against putting suspicious objects in my USB ports.
That's what she said.
I'm not on the modchip side, however. As someone who knows how to program potentially malicious code, I'm against putting suspicious objects in my USB ports.
That's what she said.
Ah, all the moaning about long firmware updates.
Mine nev3er take that long, 5 mins here, maybe 7/8 mins there. No biggie.
It's especially not a biggie when my PSN+ subscription automatically downloaded this in the middle of the night, i got home for my lunch break, set it installing (PSN+ usually installs stuff for me, but it seems, not FW updates) which took all of 5 minutes and bam, updated PS3, back to mah gaming.
Gamers are such a whiney bunch.
Mine nev3er take that long, 5 mins here, maybe 7/8 mins there. No biggie.
It's especially not a biggie when my PSN+ subscription automatically downloaded this in the middle of the night, i got home for my lunch break, set it installing (PSN+ usually installs stuff for me, but it seems, not FW updates) which took all of 5 minutes and bam, updated PS3, back to mah gaming.
Gamers are such a whiney bunch.
@P Snake
My point is, is it really going to be worth it? Is it really going to be worth it to pay $200+ for another PS3 just to get a bunch of free games that very likely won't be worth it?
I remember when I had a SwapMagic'd PS2, I just ended up playing games like the various GTA spin-offs and the other sub-par titles that were available at Blockbuster until I realized, "Why the hell am I playing these games? There's shit. The ONLY reason I'm wasting my time with them is because they're 'free', but they aren't even worth that."
My point is, is it really going to be worth it? Is it really going to be worth it to pay $200+ for another PS3 just to get a bunch of free games that very likely won't be worth it?
I remember when I had a SwapMagic'd PS2, I just ended up playing games like the various GTA spin-offs and the other sub-par titles that were available at Blockbuster until I realized, "Why the hell am I playing these games? There's shit. The ONLY reason I'm wasting my time with them is because they're 'free', but they aren't even worth that."
I'm conflicted on Piracy in general.
I used to pirate hard on the PS2, which meant I BOUGHT very few games, if any at all (all downloaded and burned to the HDD, or rented and copied) sure Sony lost out on any game purchase i WOULD have made for the PS2.
But on the other hand, now I have a PS3 I have a habit of wanting every fucking game that comes out! now my only way to get them is to BUY them.
So it kind of worked as marketing, there are a number of games i wouldn't normally consider buying but after downloading the originals on PS2 I'm buying up the sequels on PS3, not to mention the habit of needing so many games that it created in me.
Ever since the PS2, every console I've had, well, consoles, phones, everything has been 100% legit. I even have a hombrew friendly PSP1000 which has up-to-date firmware and is fully legit.
I'm a bit of a hypocrite though, because I'm fully against game piracy, it's bad, it's wrong, it hurts the industry and the gamers and is generally douch-tastic.
However, I haven't paid for music since the 90's.
Game piracy - BAD, evil and cuntish
Music piracy - Perfectly fine
I used to pirate hard on the PS2, which meant I BOUGHT very few games, if any at all (all downloaded and burned to the HDD, or rented and copied) sure Sony lost out on any game purchase i WOULD have made for the PS2.
But on the other hand, now I have a PS3 I have a habit of wanting every fucking game that comes out! now my only way to get them is to BUY them.
So it kind of worked as marketing, there are a number of games i wouldn't normally consider buying but after downloading the originals on PS2 I'm buying up the sequels on PS3, not to mention the habit of needing so many games that it created in me.
Ever since the PS2, every console I've had, well, consoles, phones, everything has been 100% legit. I even have a hombrew friendly PSP1000 which has up-to-date firmware and is fully legit.
I'm a bit of a hypocrite though, because I'm fully against game piracy, it's bad, it's wrong, it hurts the industry and the gamers and is generally douch-tastic.
However, I haven't paid for music since the 90's.
Game piracy - BAD, evil and cuntish
Music piracy - Perfectly fine
Look, i can only wish i'm working for Sony. Haha.
But i'm against piracy and what this hack is doing to the Playstation 3 is piracy plain and simple. You don't have to be a Sony supporter to see that piracy is bad. You just have to be a gamer and love gaming.
But i'm against piracy and what this hack is doing to the Playstation 3 is piracy plain and simple. You don't have to be a Sony supporter to see that piracy is bad. You just have to be a gamer and love gaming.
@epic-koryuken: How about we just pretend I said the next one is lengthy? Or the one before this. Hardly matters. Every PSN update takes longer than it should. Five minutes is still way too long when the competition can do it in literally tens of seconds.
@Romo - i don't recognise you, but i like your style, we should like Brofist or have sex or something.
@Patriot - Word up dude, I just got your PM, will add you up tonight (if you can still get on PSN that is!) ; ) i have your name on a post-it.
@ epic-koryuken Dude, music piracy is ALWAYS right.
Ahh, it's good to be back guys, I've just had a week off work hence my playing games rather than arguing about them over the last 10 or so days.
@Patriot - Word up dude, I just got your PM, will add you up tonight (if you can still get on PSN that is!) ; ) i have your name on a post-it.
@ epic-koryuken Dude, music piracy is ALWAYS right.
Ahh, it's good to be back guys, I've just had a week off work hence my playing games rather than arguing about them over the last 10 or so days.
You're a bit wrong, Conrad. It's Sony who will lose, the Internet that'll win, and the honest consumer is nothing but collateral damage.
I'm going to side with the Internet on this one. I hate being a statistic.
I'm going to side with the Internet on this one. I hate being a statistic.
everyone has the right to do what they want and all of the d-toid staff needs to get better internet connections i've never had a psn update that lasted longer than 7 minutes or so.
if people were pirating they didn't care at all about playing online anyway, so blah blah blah to most of the comments.
everyone just play games instead of complaining about what others are doing with theres/how much the game you love but won't play is selling. Trust me its WAY more fun.
if people were pirating they didn't care at all about playing online anyway, so blah blah blah to most of the comments.
everyone just play games instead of complaining about what others are doing with theres/how much the game you love but won't play is selling. Trust me its WAY more fun.
Just came in here to see how news on a firmware update garnered 75 comments. I'll just be playing my retro games that were fun without all of these technological complications. (harddrive, forced installations, firmware updates, bugs, disc read errors, Content liscenses, games that aren't fun unless they are online, games without proper endings to make way for dlc, games saves being tied to a profile and unable to transfer to other profiles because it would scre with achevements)
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