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Siskell's lesser half still refutes games as art, calls Barker a 4-year old photo

I’m sure the world at large is well aware of who Roger Ebert is. Although, what the rest of the world may not know, or care about, is his position on whether or not video games are art.

In case you were wondering, his position is an emphatic: No. The near-lifelong movie critic had posted a rather highly publicized entry on his blog last year, stating that medium that we hold so dear – is not art.

The reason that this news has once again become relevant is because Mr. Ebert has recently taken the time to respond to some criticism he received about this opinion. Criticism that was expounded by novelist, painter, screenwriter, and all around artist: Clive Barker.

Way more after the jump. 

Barker, it seems, had taken offense to what Ebert previously had said about video games, and made remarks about Ebert’s point of view at the last Hollywood and Games Summit.

Via his blog, Ebert has since replied to the comments that Barker had made. Through his responses to Barker, Ebert continues to proselytize the idea that games are not art, or at least that they, “could not be high art, as I understand it.”

Ebert then follows that statement by categorizing the entire breadth and history of gaming into just three genres. Apparently, all games are either: point and shoot games, games in which you hunt or scavenge for treasure “as in Myst,” or ones in which the player controls the outcome.

He then later goes on to defend his opinion by semantically attacking certain quotes of Barker’s. Even going as far as to teach him the definition of the word prejudice and, at one point, equate one of Barker’s statements to that, “of an honest and articulate 4-year old.”

Impressively mature, Mr. Ebert. Maybe later we can all play a game of I know you are, but what am I?

Ebert eventually throws Barker a backhanded bone by saying that Barker’s Undying could be art; that is, if it had been blessed by the hands of the late Andy Warhol.

Andy Warhol was, by the way, an artist. Clive Barker is currently an artist. Roger Ebert, though, is not an artist.

But for him to claim one artists work isn’t art unless another artist touches it, is a clear and direct insult to Barker. One in which I hope that Barker responds to with even more venom than this reporter can muster.

Personally, I have no idea where Ebert gets off telling the world what is, or isn’t, art. Especially when he passes these judgments on mediums he, quite obviously, doesn’t understand.

This is evidenced by his rather bold claim that all video games can only fall into one of three categories. This statement shows that he is either profoundly uninformed or, quite possibly, ignorant of the video game world at large.

I suppose that’s why he called Myst a treasure/scavenger hunt.

It would seem that Mr. Ebert and I must have received different copies of Myst, because I’m pretty sure that the version that I played was a story driven puzzle game. It’s quite possible that my memories have lied to me, but I think this miscatagorization has more to do with the fact that Ebert has a very narrow view of mediums that are completely unfamiliar to him.  

For example, I did go see a movie the other day. I would have described the film as a period piece, with riveting performances and dramatic undertones. Although, were I to describe it in the same way Ebert sees video games -- I would have called it a “Western.”

In other words, Mr Ebert, stick to what you know, and leave the art of gaming to the artists.

[Via, Actiontrip]


Continue: More Games as Art stories





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102 comments | showing # 51 to 100

youareivan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:26
youareivan
@ lordregulas

only a scrapbooker could say "art" is supposed to mean "craft."
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:30
LordRegulus
I said "craft", not "crafts".

Craft: A measure of an artist’s command over the consonances of an artwork, typically including a mastery of styles and conventions, a developed sense of perception, a prior education in the great works of the field, and an attention to technical details.
Trevor McGee's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:34
Trevor McGee
@ darkslide

Here have a little "art".

darkslide's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:34
darkslide
@Trevor Mcgee

Oh without a doubt Video Games are art. I'm not arguing that.

But for you to dismiss accepted art, because some asshat who thinks his opinion matters disses your favorite medium, well you're no better than he is. Have you learned nothing from the internet? Everyone has stupid opinions about shit they know nothing about.
viewtifulmom's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:38
viewtifulmom
At least read the wikipedia links on the artists you're bashing before making these claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock

<img src="http://sixmeatbuffet.com/images/nowyouknow.jpg">
Trevor McGee's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:43
Trevor McGee
Here's the difference. Splatter art takes no effort at all to make. Actual paintings takes hours, days, weeks, months, and sometimes even years to finish depending on how much work the artist puts into it. Same can be said for video games. Splatter art no matter how long they take, in the end, is nothing more than flicking paint at a canvas and that takes no effort at all and anyone could do it. It's a form of art, sure, but it shouldn't be as or more accepted as something like video games.
Ashdate's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:44
Ashdate
I mostly agree with what Ebert says; the problem with video games IS that you uh, play them. It becomes harder to analyze and dissect when no two games are ever the same.

But I believe it is possible to play a video game and actually have a completely analyzable product, as long as you have someone watching. Anyone watching the game would have no control over the game itself, thus while you may not be watching 'art,' they would be.

- Eddie
darkslide's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:48
darkslide
@Trevor

That's art too. You do not decide what isn't art. No one has that right. But we all have the right to decide what is art

Here is an extreme.

Piss Christ.


That is a crucifix in a jar of piss. That is art. Just because you don't like it, agree with it, or are offended by it doesn't mean it is not art.

Splatter art on the scale of Jackson Pollock's work didn't take, hours, or days some of his work took him weeks and months to make,, and for you to dismiss it because it's not your preference shows where you're lacking.

You are getting defensive about video games so you lash out at other mediums you don't understand. You're acting like Roger Ebert. :P
RJG's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:49
RJG
This is all very entertaining, but there is a clear distinction between the two.

One is involved in the creative process of making video games, the other is a critic. The key word here is creative. Video games are not the sum of a few maths equations and a dead hooker. They are created by creators, with art design done by artists and programming done by programmers, with music done by real musicians.

I know, it's terribly shocking, and to think that all this creativity, all this that would be considered art BY ITSELF were it not lumped under the category of "video game", well, I think Mr. Ebert is a little off track.

But then, we should be thankful we have someone so far removed from the process of either playing or making video games to tell us what they are or aren't, because lord knows that art is a term so clearly defined.
Trevor McGee's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:56
Trevor McGee
@ darkslide

No, you're wrong. I'm no where near Ebert. See the difference is that I am willing to accept that Splatter art, no matter what my feelings are about it, is still art. I personally feel the word art should be used loosely when talking about splatter art, however at least I am willing to consider it a part of art or rather an art form. Ebert on the other hand complete dismissed the entire video game industry. That's a huge difference.
darkslide's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 09:57
darkslide
Yes, I see what you're saying.

Let's join forces and say Fuck Ebert. Instead of wasting time arguing over Jackson Pollock.
youareivan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:00
youareivan
craft - an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity
Mr Jonson's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:05
Mr Jonson
This month at the Getty Museum: "Splinter Cell and the Feminist Revolution"

Sorry dudes: videogames are not art: they're videogames. A good videogame (which is a hard thing to find these days) is based around engaging play mechanics above all. Pretty as the eye candy may be, or good as the writing may be (good writing in a videogame? pffft!) these are only artistic elements in a videogame.

Could these artistic elements in videogames, as separate entities, be considered art? Perhaps, but I'm hard-pressed to consider the artwork of Super Mario Bros. as art.

Now, don't get me wrong: videogames are a medium that can be used as an artform, much like film can be art. Still, you have to admit that you won't be seeing Viva Piñata on any art galleries.
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:05
LordRegulus
There is no such thing as art. You can tell me that anything on the planet, from a thumbtack to the Great Wall of China, is a work of art and you'd probably be right on some esoteric level. The word "art" has absolutely no semantic content and this entire argument is rendered moot by the fact any damn thing you like can be a masterpiece. All I can say is that the only "art" that makes even the remotest difference to me is the kind that deliberately communicates a value with the intent to inspire rather than confuse. That is why I couldn't care less about Andy Warhol, Jackson Pollock, or even the vast majority of movies and video games that currently exist. It's all fluff, and until somebody makes the video game equivalent of <i>The Fountainhead</i>, anything that can possibly be said on this topic is empty and meaningless.

<i>"Definitions are the guardians of rationality, the first line of defense against the chaos of mental disintegration."</i>
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:06
LordRegulus
HTML = FAIL.
RJG's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:15
RJG
Alright, as a quick example of writing, which is (can be) an art in itself, let's look at two stories that take place in the same universe.

Star Wars KOTOR and Star Wars prequels.

The Star Wars prequels can be considered art, pop art, but art all the same, because they fall within an already believed to be artisitic medium, that of film.

KOTOR is not art, despite having better writing and letting the player, through their actions, determine parts of the story?

What sort of biased shit is this? A good story is a good story, be it a novel (art) or a film (art) or a video game (suddenly not art).

Let's not forget it took years for film to be regarded as art too. Before that it was just considered simple entertainment, mere peep shows. Now? We cite Citizen Kane as an artistic masterpiece.

Does not compute.
winojesus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:32
winojesus
aspects of games are artistic.
games are not art, they are design.
they are also fucking great.
FireofEvil's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:48
FireofEvil
who is that guy and why are we listening to him?
youareivan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 10:49
youareivan
so ayn rand's the fountainhead is the new benchmark for what is and what isn't art? i think you're gonna like bioshock.
Papapishu's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:04
Papapishu
This is exactly why he has no right to ever criticize videogames. the hypocrate posted a review of "Cosmology of Kyoto" for Wired in 1994:

[i]Cosmology of Kyoto
By Roger Ebert

The Cosmology of Kyoto CD-ROM comes with a bare minimum of instructions, informing me in a few words how to move within the images. No goal is established and no points are scored; the game never informs me what the object is, although it discreetly tracks the levels of karma and cash I have attained and keeps an inventory of my possessions. The disc comes packaged with a large fold-out map showing the streets and principal buildings of Kyoto - circa 900, when, as Heiankyo, it was the capital of Japan. I begin to wander the streets.

The richness is almost overwhelming; there is the sense that the resources of this game are limitless and that no two players would have the same experience. I have been exploring the ancient city in spare moments for two weeks now, and doubt that I have even begun to scratch the surface. This is the most beguiling computer game I have encountered, a seamless blend of information, adventure, humor, and imagination - the gruesome side-by-side with the divine.

In this medieval Kyoto, people exist alongside ghosts, demons, and goblins. On my travels I have met - and interacted with - a dog eating entrails, long-winded old farts, tradespeople (who offered me medicines, dried fish, cloth, rice cakes, amulets, and a chance to lose money on a cock fight), a monk leading a prayer meeting, kids playing ball in the streets (one is beheaded by a passerby), a friendly guide dog, a maiden with an obscenely phallic tongue, and a gambler who taught me a dice game.

The graphics are hauntingly effective, using a wide-screen landscape format. The individual characters are drawn with vivid facial characteristics, a cross between the cartoons of medieval Japanese art and the exaggerations of modern Japanimation. The speaking voices are filled with personality, often taunting, teasing, or sexy. There is the sense, illusory but seductive, that one could wander this world indefinitely.

This is a wonderful game.[/i]
nectarine's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:23
nectarine
Blue Poles is awesome. I've seen it in person, fantastic.
Geoff's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:25
Geoff
once again i bring up the point of who the fuck cares
B__'s Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:32
B__
videogames are as much art as pornography is. we use it to achieve a specific feeling- therefore games (unlike art) can be categorically good or bad. this is why reviews of videogames read like buyer-guides, rather than profound criticism (chuck klosterman has a piece on this).

the "art" within games is commercial art: on the same level (and function) as comic books or (to a lesser extent), advertising.

regardless, videogames certainly have the potential to become art in the future.
twincannon's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:32
twincannon
I would've partially agreed up until the Andy Warhol comment. I tend to think anyone who immediately spits his name out when talking about great artists to be a pretentious knob, personally.

Video games are definitely an art in the creation of them, of that there is no doubt... and possibly there isn't a more intense form of art. Where else can such a large group of people come together for years to create something, putting many different forms of media/art together in the process?

As for being "high art", however, it's questionable... some video games might be considered interactive high art, things like fl0w, or mono; but in most cases the end product isn't what I'd call "art" in the strictest sense only because it's usually trying to serve a specific purpose.

However, art in and of itself is in the eye of the beholder - if anything is for sure, it's that Roger Ebert is not the goddamned decider of what is and is not art.
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:33
LordRegulus
@youareivan

Yeah, I probably will. But the point of my bringing that up was not to claim that Ayn Rand's fiction is somehow superior (as we Objectivists are wont to do on occasion, and for that I apologize), but simply to say that I don't care about any work of art that doesn't try to clearly communicate an ideal or value to me. If the concept being expressed needs to be explained by an outside source (as with anything by Pollock, since I see nothing in his paintings intrinsically), then the work cannot stand on its own. It is a map without key or scale, and I will not arrive at my destination.

@Papapishu

OH SNAP, SON!
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:38
LordRegulus
And for the last time: There. Is. NO. Such. Thing. As. Art.

I can't presume to tell you what you're supposed to like, but in return for that respect I request that you not berate me for being ambivalent about silkscreens of Campbell's soup cans.
Papapishu's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:51
Papapishu
Awwww...but soup is delicious!

That said, I err on the side of my good friend Regulus, somewhat. All definitional arguments are masturbatory, art worst of all. Definition is a function of language, and language is never ever static. Thus, definition is never static. Math used to be considered art, remember? But you don't see complex equations hanging next to Salvidor Dali.

So the whole fucking thing is pointless. You can calm down now internets.
B__'s Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:51
B__
lordregulus,

i appreciate you bringing in the notion that art must have an objective value/end, but i think it is way too narrow-sighted, and also wrong.

i'm assuming you're about 20 and you've read a few books and gone to college a bit, but i think you're missing some wonderful stuff (amazing internal experiences) by dismissing fine art.

and i also think you're wrong about most fine art (you seem to disregard abstract and pop art specifically) not having an objective value, as most of it does on a existential or experiential level. in other words, the objective value of art is not always that it teaches a specific value like a moral to a fairy tale, but what it forces us to experience, question, etc.
flanflan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 11:56
flanflan
This might be a bit too late, but here's my thoughts behind Ebert's opinion. He's old, he's a movie critic, and he lived in an era where the latest and greatest thing were the monochromatic T.V. and specifically films. I'm going to have to agree with sunami88 and say he doesn't get our beloved medium--even if he did loved that point'n'click adventure game.

I don't believe he has the experience of living our past: either be it by playing our very first Magnavox, Amiga, Atari, Nintendo, or Playstation game. He doesn't have our palate of tastes and tolerances in games, as much as we don't have his palate of tastes, and tolerances, in movies. I don't know if its his old age or illness speaking for him, but I could guess on other motives on why he said these words. My only assumption to his motives is this: he's afraid to see his medium go like the way of the book.

Now just think about it for a moment on what's happening at the movie industry now, and then think about how the game industry is doing now. I'm sorry to say but I'm too lazy to look for statistics, but I bet the movie industry is not doing as well as the game industry. I don't believe this is going to change unless there's a medium better then video games--and it will happen.

The sad thing about high art is its many factors of becoming high art. But in my humble opinion, art only becomes high art whenever some "aristocrat" thinks its high art. Its sad to say, but most art is payed by people willing to invest an artist to do a service for them. Now, if you'll take my approach on what's considered high art, and you'll see that video games have already taken that prerequisite.
SwampFoxB46's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 12:21
SwampFoxB46
1) Ebert is a pulitzer prize winning film critic
2) Clive Barker, if you read, was acting like a 4 year old
3) the man (ebert) is getting shit for simply saying what he believes. The only reason this gets attention (and continues) is because of posts on internet gaming blogs with biased headlines and stances.

For god sakes, kotaku had a FAR better article concerning the post on rogerebert.com

people need to calm down. We're all trying to argue over the definition of art. Does anybody realize how asinine that is?

Side note: Roger Ebert has been my hero since I was 11 years old (i'm now 23). His sheer love of film makes his articles and reviews special. What i'm trying to say is...If Roger Ebert requested a sandwich from me, i'd walk through the fires of hell to get it. Rock on, Ebert.
Sharpless's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 12:42
Sharpless
Who gives a shit? STFUAJPG.
youareivan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 12:54
youareivan
@ lordregulus

i think you are being intentionally obtuse if you don't get that pollock's painting is about painting. whether that's good enough to justify it is another thing entirely. i'm not a big pollock fan, i think rothko is a better example of art for art's sake, but just because eyes in the heat doesn't tell a story or isn't representational of some abstract knowledge made flesh (for one's rational self-interest i might add!) that doesn't mean it isn't art. it means its art i don't like.

also, i'm not sure how you progressed from a screen shot of odin spear as art to "there. is. no. such. thing. as. art." in the same thread.
Brandon Undead's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 13:01
Brandon Undead
Sharpless says:
07/24/2007 12:42
Who gives a shit? STFUAJPG.

Seconded, this thread has eaten itself.
vinnchan's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 13:03
vinnchan
@B__ & @ youareivan: He's an objectivist. There's no arguing that point with him, the rejection of non-functional art is defined as a part of objectivism. Jackson Pollock is the very anti-thesis of this so I don't think anyone can really ever explain it to him (though i think it would be art to an objectivist painter).


For everyone arguing that the interactive nature of video games is what prevents them from being art; I present the argument that by refusing to play the game as it is meant to be played you are "rejecting" the art. Just as someone can reject a serious movie by laughing at it.
LordRegulus's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 13:35
LordRegulus
@youareivan

Love the avatar. The Odin Sphere screen was hasty on my part. It seems to fit the definition of art people here are using, but in retrospect I take issue with that definition.

I suppose I shouldn't say that "art for art's sake" is worthless, rather that I derive no pleasure or edification from it. Vinnchan is right in saying that I cannot endorse non-functional art; it is antithetical to everything I believe.

And then:

@Sharpless & Brandon

Thanks. Someone needed to say that.
ChrisFurniss's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 15:14
ChrisFurniss
art is not just the visuals, you guys. that's a very narrow viewpoint on art. Pollack's pieces are art not just for their aesthetic value, but for the process involved. Games aren't art just because they look pretty, it's a deeper definition of art than that. So keep the kneejerk uneducated art opinions on the dee ell.
Capt 133t's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 17:40
Capt 133t
Blah this is getting tiring....you know Nobody bitched out Hideo Kojima when he said the exact same thing!!! And by the way Gene Siskel died way back in Feb. 1999 so its a little weird to call Ebert his lesser half nowadays.
Capt 133t's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 17:41
Capt 133t
Blah this is getting tiring....you know Nobody bitched out Hideo Kojima when he said the exact same thing!!! And by the way Gene Siskel died way back in Feb. 1999 so its a little weird to call Ebert his lesser half nowadays.
neveranything's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 17:54
neveranything
When does one person's OPINION count as a RULE?
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 17:59
Cyberxion
Videogames, much like film and books, both considered to be art, are meant to entertain you. In my opinion, that you've taken away authorial control (to an extent) does not somehow dilute the fact that much like those aforementioned media, that's all they really set out to do. It's too poor a qualifier to be used in the argument that games are not art.
As Ebert's entire discussion seems to be hinged on that particular point, at least when you discount the misguided and pointless notion he has that games only fit into a few different categories (What about films, an art form he's built a career around critiquing? You can break them all down into several genres, and it's all still art...), as well as his conceit that games take away time that we could be using to better ourselves as people (I won't go into that one here..), his opinion about games as art comes across as being too narrow-minded to bother entertaining.
No matter how you feel about Ebert himself, it's hard to put much stock into his viewpoint, aside from noting it as a minor point of interest and then filing it away never to be bothered with again.

The only reason that we as a community are bothered by this is because his words do carry a certain level of credulity afforded him by his many years as a film critic. When someone like this says that something isn't art, people tend to listen. And when such a statement is made seemingly out of heavy-handed stubbornness, apparent elitism, and in blatant ignorance of the subject at hand, that so many people are likely to take it on blind faith is annoying indeed.

In short, it's not so much his opinion of videogames that I personally take issue with, but that he's seemingly out to discount them as an art form simply because he doesn't understand the subject, and has a very narrow-minded viewpoint regarding art in any form, much less when it comes to this particular one.
Papapishu's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 18:00
Papapishu
I want to make up a new word that means the same thing as art but is vaguer, essentially encompasses everything, isinfinitely harder to define and makes for longer and more violent messageboard threads.

I'll call it "Floccinaucinihilipilification". That isn't taken, is it?
Cyberxion's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/24/2007 18:16
Cyberxion
I should say right now that entertainment isn't entirely the sole intent of films and movies. I, much like Ebert, generalized there a bit. That said, what you take from it emotionally, while relevant, doesn't change the fact that a good book or movie leaves you entertained, which is their purpose on the most basic level.

Or something. I probably just got caught up in my own bullshit for a second there.
GnappyAssassin's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2007 08:43
GnappyAssassin
A quick tidbit on art...

"The purpose of art is to create an emotional response in the person that is exposed to that art. And there are three categories of art; bad art, good art and great art. Bad art will elicit no emotional response in the person that is exposed to it, i.e.; a song you hear in an elevator and it does nothing to you, a picture on a wall that gives you the same emotional response as if the wall had been blank, a movie that chews up time. Good art will make you feel an emotion that you have felt before; you see a picture of a forest and you remember the last time you went fishing with your dad, you hear a song about love and you remember the last time you were in love. Great art will make you feel an emotion you have never felt before; seeing the pieta, the world famous sculpture by Michelangelo, can cause someone to feel the pain of losing a child even if they've never had one. And when you're trying for these emotions the easiest one to trigger is anger. Anyone can do it. Go into the street, throw a rock at someone, you will make them angry. The emotions of love, empathy and laughter are much harder to trigger, but since they operate on a deeper level, they bring a much greater reward."

Art is defined be the response it evokes.

Super Mario World is art when it brings to pass in you the agony of discovering the princess is in another castle.

Halo is art when you feel the desperation in being humanity's last hope against a seemingly unstoppable force.

If the works of Warhol, Dali, or Pollack can create in you some feeling-some emotional attachment, then they are art. This per-person based emotional contact is the reason that Ebert doesn't feel Games are art. There's no connection for his emotions to be wrenched by.
ridley80's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2007 13:57
ridley80
Do you think Roger Ebert makes those jumping motions on his controller while playing Mario Bros? I say absolutely. Then he is on par with my mom who claimed that my Playstation was screwing up her VHS machine.
faker's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2007 16:11
faker
Ebert's a brilliant film critic; if he likes a movie, chances are I'll go see it and enjoy it, too. But I think video games came after his generation, so it matters much less to him. I presume he was at an age when the NES (for example) came out and everyone his age was saying "oh, isn't that good fun for kids". WE, on the other hand, got the NES and said "holy fuck this is awesome". Fastforward. The indie game scene is overflowing with creative, interesting, and thematically rich games. There are a few that have trickled onto consoles, but not many. The rest are fun as shit, nothing more. Not grossly artistic, but still good games. Like Halo, for example. Fun as hell, but it wasn't designed with art in mind. I really couldn't give less of a shit whether or not Ebert things games can be art; he likely hasn't seen the newest and most interesting artistic games, and is a terrible judge either way.
Jim's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/29/2007 15:06
Jim
Ebert doesn't know anything about games anyway and Siskel's movie reviews were always better.

BTW: Siskel is written with just one 'L'!!!
FuzzyWhisper's Avatar - Comment posted on 08/13/2007 05:53
FuzzyWhisper
The concept of art is an intellectual and rhetorical construct that people employ to imbue given items with subjective meaning. You'll find that any consensus on the matter collapses the moment an ostensibly insignificant foreign element is introduced. Take the Mona Lisa, for example. Few would argue that the piece is not art, yet display a duplicate and ask a group of qualified individuals to agree if, and indeed why, its artistic value pales in comparison to the original, and see how the conversation plays out. Before you know it, everyone will find themselves insisting their personal definition of art is the only valid one. Stubbornness is not always the culprit at such an impasse, but when Roger Ebert writes about games it's particularly difficult to tell.

Ebert, apparently unable to reconcile his own limited gaming experience with the arguments of informed gamers seeking due recognition for their favored medium, appears to have fallen back on a most ancient and celebrated persuasive tactic to preserve his credibility: he totally fudges it. Baseless, purely theoretical speculation stated with confident authority as though it were fact. There exists the possibility that legitimate research and careful critical thought led him to his conclusion about the artistic merit of videogames, but his stoic refusal to consider alternate possibilities, despite compelling appeals from many individuals, raises serious doubts about his objectivity.

My own conclusion about the issue of games as art is fairly straightforward. If elements that comprise a subject partially or in full are commonly recognized as art, the subject itself must be considered art by association. Creative intent (in this case, on the part of those who make games) can invest the subject with considerable additional meaning, but it is not strictly necessary. I think critics' often-stated claim that games' interactivity precludes them from being what connoisseurs regard as fine art is utterly farcical. Surely insisting on such a distinction only serves as an excuse not to adapt one's views to the rapidly evolving landscape of contemporary culture and its sundry forms of creative expression.

Stubbornness, it seems, is to blame after all. Fortunately, the efforts of tomorrow's innovators carry on untainted by the well-meaning but shortsighted protests of older generations.
king3vbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2008 11:33
king3vbo
At this point, do you think anyone cares what he has to say?
ace of knaves's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2008 12:01
ace of knaves
Roger Ebert is very, very old. Like most people his age he does not, on absolutely any level, understand video games. However, he stirs us up because he does know quite a lot about the film medium, and therefore we think he should be well versed in the merits of all forms of entertainment and human expression. He doesn't. This is okay. Let's move on.
donkeykong's Avatar - Comment posted on 07/25/2008 14:03
donkeykong
Ebert is just one man, why should his opinion be worth so much? Did anyone ask him what he thought about video games or their potential as art? Not any of us, so why are we so caught up on his response?

If anything, it was a good entry point for the discussion, and it has a lot of us thinking about video games as art now. If he hadn't said anything far fewer of us would have made the connection.

My understanding is that art can serve no purpose other than itself. A painting of a classic car, for example, could be art, but the car itself cannot because it serves the purpose of transport. Unless it stops working and becomes a lawn ornament. That's art.

It's all really irrelevant though. Art isn't necessarily good or bad, and if none of us are artists it shouldn't warrant such a lengthy discussion. Calling video games art might serve to legitimize them, but only superficially. Never has stfuajpg been more needed than today.
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