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Should you even die once in a well-designed game? photo

How hard should a video game be? Should it tromp on your skull the whole way through until you break multiple controllers in aggravation? Or should it hold your hand throughout, offering a plethora of tutorials and stages easy enough for anyone to complete? Of course, the obvious answer is somewhere in between the two, but I think that it is even a little more complicated than that.

Take dying, for example. Losing a life in a video game is obviously something you want to avoid as often as possible. Heck, in Contra you can only do it three times before you have to start all over again (without the code, of course). So if you are a good player, why should it even happen once? In a perfectly designed game shouldn’t you be able to make it through an entire quest without ever seeing a “Game Over” screen?

Find out why I think so after the jump.

Most gamers would argue that you have to die a lot of times to get better. Kind of like with anything in life, you have to practice something before you can master it. One could never expect to walk onto a football field tomorrow and immediately throw a winning pass without first having months and months of training. You could hand me a trumpet right now and there is pretty much no chance that anything melodious would come out of it. Give me a year, though, and you may have a different story. So why then are video games any different?

When you play Super Mario Bros. for the first time you have no idea how to master it. It takes multiple tries to finally learn what is coming and give you the required skills to make it to the flag at the end of every level, right? Yeah, but that doesn’t make it okay. Video games and video game players alike have grown accustomed to a system of “trial and error” that has become the norm in the industry today. And I think that is a serious problem.

Some games are challenging solely because of their poor game design. Take a game like Total Recall for the NES. That game is downright impossible. Not only are the controls completely wonky, but there is so much stuff being thrown at you at all times that the game just turns into a chore. Add in the fact that there is almost no sense of which way to go in the poorly executed levels and you have a big ol' hot mess. These kinds of games are completely unfair and, even if you were a master game player, could never be beat without dying at least once.

It’s like giving a professional race car driver a car that always gets a flat tire. The driver could be the most talented stock car racer in the world, but if his equipment is bad, he will never stand a chance of winning anything. Games like Total Recall offer no hope for the player whatsoever, regardless of skill level.

Things start to get fuzzy once you focus on games that actually are genuinely well-designed (and well-received). One of my favorite games of last year, Gears of War, has so many things going for it. The graphics are perfection, the control is solid, and the challenge is pretty comparable to what most players are looking for in a successful, entertaining game. But there were plenty of places in Gears where I would die constantly, having to try again multiple times.

I have to admit, the satisfaction I got when defeating an extremely tough enemy was pretty darn rewarding. But how is a game where a player is pretty much guaranteed to die several times at certain parts not considered as sloppily designed as something like Total Recall? Why is it excusable for a gamer to have to keep trying something over and over until he/she finally conquers it?

You may have to humor me on this analogy, but bear with me for a second. If I was a soldier fighting a war I would have to approach each battle with as much strategy and skill as I could muster. It would be real life, so I would only get one shot at whatever I was trying to attempt. Yes, I could throw myself in front of the enemy, bullets flying, screaming at the top of my lungs with my shirt half ripped open (showing the world my impossibly huge six-pack), but that would most likely result in me, well, dying. If I were smart, I would strategize and use all the skills I had learned up to that point to take on the enemy in the best way possible, thus insuring a victory. I would only have one shot -- I would need to make it count.

But if this was a scenario from a video game, I could do whatever I wanted with no real consequences (there is always a checkpoint or continue waiting in the wings). I could hop out from behind a rock, let the enemy kill me, learn its pattern, and try once again (knowing this time what was coming).

If real life battles were akin to something like Devil May Cry 3 no one would ever survive and there would be no victories. I would give you everything I have ever owned if you could show me someone who picked up Devil May Cry 3 for the first time and beat the game without dying once. Seriously, I would even make the same offer if you took the best DMC3 player in the world and asked him/her to do the same thing. It probably wouldn’t happen. Playing video games is a skill all of us have worked hard honing over the years. Shouldn’t we be rewarded for this improvement rather than punished with increasingly harder and more frustrating games? High skill levels should come with benefits!

So what does all this bitching and ranting mean, Chad? What can be done to make you happy? Well, first off, I am very happy. I love video games more than anyone and I don’t mind utilizing “trial and error” to beat most of the games out there. Gosh, I am so used to it after all these years I can’t expect it to change overnight. But there are definitely some things that designers can do to really work on what it means for a game to be “hard.” Challenge should not be based on how many times a game kills you.

First off, get rid of the “cheap tricks.” This is the most common thing games utilize to increase the challenge level and one that I could easily do without. Mega Man 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, but think about how ridiculously hard levels like the Heat Man stage were. In one of the most challenging sections, a set of bricks you must hop across appear and disappear in an obvious pattern. Of course, all of this is done over a molten river, so one wrong jump results in an instant blue explosion (accompanied by that Mega Man death sound we all know too well).

This level is totally classic and a great memory from my childhood, but, honestly, it almost completely relies on the player retrying the jumps over and over again until said pattern is memorized. There is almost no chance of anyone making it past this on the first try. It just isn’t designed that way. Same thing goes for Battletoads, as anyone who has experienced the hover bike sections can attest. Without “trial and error” and memorization those levels would be, literally, impossible. That just doesn’t seem right and is definitely not an example of good design.

Secondly, and maybe most importantly, satisfaction should not come solely from beating a game that killed you more times than any other. I remember patting myself on the back the first time I beat the original Castlevania. Hell, I think I actually threw myself a little parade. It was an immensely satisfying feeling to complete a game that had no shame in throwing effin’ Medusa heads at you while you tried to navigate some narrow gears (yeah, Castlevania, that’s fair).

Just recently, though, I went back to play the game again and realized it was not “fun” hard; it was just “annoyingly” hard. I lost more lives defeating Frankenstein alone than I think I did in God of War in its entirely. And, technically, Frankenstein really shouldn't be that hard when compared to an overly complicated battle with, say, the Hydra!

I am not asking for all games to be so easy that you can’t even die if you tried. Nor am I screaming for the reverse, cheap tricks added to just make the game easier (really, Wind Waker? I only lose half a heart for falling in that pit of lava?). I just challenge game makers to design a game that offers the possibility of completing it without once losing a life. Sure, I guess it is possible to beat any game without dying. I mean, just the fact that it can be beat means there has to be a chance, regardless of how slim it may be. But how much more rewarding would it feel to beat a really hard game because of the skills you learned along the way, not just based on how well you can memorize things.

I am not going to pretend there are any concrete answers (because there may not be). I have a huge respect for video game designers and think almost all the games mentioned above are works of art. It is just time for a change. This is a new generation for the industry and a lot of us are becoming pros at playing video games. Instead of trying to match our mad skills by just ramping up the challenge unfairly, game designers should embrace creative new ways to offer an experience that is both challenging and fair (since you must be curious, I feel like ICO and Prince of Persia: Sands of Time have come the closest so far to perfecting this).

Hopefully the days of the “Game Over” screen are long gone.


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81 comments | showing # 51 to 81

Azrael's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/20/2007 22:50
Azrael
No offense guys, but I believe the people who like the "game over" are a bit on the masochistic side. One of the big problems of games as an entertainment medium is that a lot of people never get to the end of them, so they feel like the only watch "half the movie" can you imagine how bad would that be if "game over" still existed? most games would be "arcadey" in look and feel.

Take Alien Hominid per example, great game, sometimes hard but fun, unfortunately it has a limited set of lives (even after saving your current level). I have NEVER finish it. No matter how much I like a game, theres a limit of the time Im willing to expend on a game If I realize Im going nowhere.

Now take castlevania SOTN, I finished to 196% (and I probably would play it again to get the missing 4%) I expent WAY more time in it than in the first game, even after it was "finished" but I felt like I was ADVANCING the whole time.

Dead rising brought something new to the table, in DR you die and get a game over screen (everybody hates that) BUT you get to keep the XP and techniques you got, that means you become more powerful every time you die, even if you are still stuck on level 1. And at the end that makes you choose different routes getting diferent outcomes until (eventually) you finish the game on one session or on a small set of saves. (if you are persistent and skilled enough of course) it is extremely repetitive. But not as much as 3 lives and a game over screen. (is somewhere in between)
ShinSennju's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/20/2007 23:15
ShinSennju
I'm currently playing Yoshi's Island, and until now I see why its such a landmark on its genre. Apart from its great music and graphical style, I think the difficulty of the game hits the sweet spot , sure I complete most levels at the first attempt but that its because I have gained experience from the previous levels, so after a little bit of thinking I can infer where did the programmers hid an item or which traps did they set for me to fall into, and for the most part the levels are excellently designed. Of course, the extra levels are pretty F'ing hard, so players asking for more difficulty have something going for them too.

I dislike when the difficulty comes from memorizing TOO much, as it was with NES Ninja Gaiden and similar games, you had to memorize where would one of those damned eagles and bats and jumping-charging dudes would show up, often perfectly placed so that you would fall into a bottomless pit or something like that...

And I quite enjoyed Wind Waker, sure it was insanely easy but in every other aspect it was a masterpiece.

But thats my opinion, and everyone has their own opinion as how difficult games should be, but I would appreciate that most games would include difficulty settings or second quests for those who want more challenge
Jecrell's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/20/2007 23:19
Jecrell
Deaths should be few, but rewarding.
ttaylor's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/20/2007 23:25
ttaylor
I don't mind dieing a few times, but over and over and over again bothers me like nothing else. I could not beat RAAM in Gears.. I tried and tried and tried. It must have been about 50 trys before I gave up. Frustrated, I didn't touch it again for over a month. I still couldn't beat him after about 20 more tries.. I gave up again. The following week I decided to try once more and I finally beat him after about another 20 tries. When I beat him I wasn't elated or happy, I was still pissed that he was so hard when nothing else in the entire game is nearly as complicated as that. (it didn't help that I had the worst weapons available..) I have a friend who had the same thing happen to him, he just can't beat it.

Games like Gears aren't really my thing but it had been hyped and talked about so much I had to pick it up. I thought it was an awesome game but I'm just awful at games like it.
ExpertPenguin's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 00:29
ExpertPenguin
Dying isn't a sign of bad game design per se. It isn't clear cut, but there is a very grey area that a game starts to tread into the realm of bad design.

I can understand what you're hinting at, but everyone, someone, at some point, is going to see the game over screen at one point. Attempting to design a game where no one will die is like designing a PC game, just like you have no idea how powerful or weak someone's rig is, players are not all the same, there are varying skills and preferences among all of us. What is an immense challenge for one is a cakewalk to another, and vice versa.

I may be in the minority, but I died twice in Gears the first time I played it. I came very close in spots, but I never failed. Likewise, I know many people who got frustrated fighting the Closer, or during the Mine Cart Sequence. I'll admit that on Raam, I died. (btw, the Raam boss fight is an example of bad game design.) Other than Raam though, it was very well done.

Megaman games are badly designed on PURPOSE. Pits, spikes, ridiculous enemies, even harder bosses...The main reason I think, is that truthfully, if you went through each MM platformer without dying, it'd take you roughly 45 minutes to an hour...and you would feel gypped, wouldn't ya? So it articficially extends it's length through trial-and-error gameplay. Also the famous last stage where you inexplicably have to fight every boss a second time.

Another example of this would be Devil May Cry 3, where the game is so unnecessarily difficult in spots that dying and restarting is the only way to succeed. There is no argument; some enemies appear out of nowhere and have random attack patterns that can easily take off half of your life if you don't know what to expect, and when to expect it. It's also excerbated by the fact that you can't block, leading every level to be an awkward step in memorization to succeed: You rarely pass a mission without dying the first time through, and when you do it's only a hollow tang because the game slaps you with an inferior rank for your trouble. This is a TERRIBLY sharp contrast to the first DMC, which like Ninja Gaiden, felt incredibly rewarding and badass whenever you DID complete a level, even if the rank weren't so great.

On the other note, Prince of Persia:SoT is listed as a shining example of great design, and while I do agree, I have to disagree with it on one point. The ENTIRE game is built around the concept of trial and error, except instead of seeing "Game Over" screens right away, you're allowed to rewind your mistakes a set number of times. I know I'm not the only one who fell into a pit or two, or ran out of sand only to hear the Prince muck up his story and ask if he can start over.

Without turning this into an entire essay (if it isn't a little bit of one already) My point was that death is unavoidable. You cannot expect that every player, in every game, no matter how easy will not die at least once. It's inevitable. We fall so we can learn to pick ourselves up again. If we aren't challenged, in games OR life, there's a lack of a need to improve.

It's when developers employ difficulty spikes out of nowhere, or unavoidable death sequences (see....just about every SHMUP on the planet, Halo 2 on legendary) that things start to get a bit hairy, and admittedly not fun. Challenge is one thing. Aritficial challenge is another.

(and at first glance....it really DOES look like a penis.)
garden's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 00:41
garden
Very interesting article. But don't you think that games are easier just because publisher can sell more? Just look at the wii and nintendo's strategy. Casual games for a casual console for casual people. We are no more talking about challenge but game experience.
So now instead of using the word "easy", just replace it by the word "casual", then read your article again. :)

But it's a very interesting article!
Campbell's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 01:36
Campbell
How can anybody like a game that lets you just waltz through it?


I feel bad for the kids who've never had to suffer through countless NES "game over" screens or had to scrounge for continues and extra lives.


Gaming has gotten FAR too easy. Out of everything wrong with the way video games are made in this day and age, I find their difficulity the most disturbing.
Banj's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 02:18
Banj
I don't mind dying in games if it was my fault and not the result of cheap-ass A.I. blagging me out of my life.
Mister Disco's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 03:31
Mister Disco
Hm. Some good responses to this article, but I have to disagree with you entirely, Chad. If I get through an entire game without dying, I consider THAT to be poor game design. I feel gyped that I spent $50-$60 on a game that posed no real challenge. Yes, near-deaths can be a sign of "Wow that was hard", but nothing beats overcoming the impossible. Overcoming the impossible is part of the magic of gaming, if you ask me. It's not some pixelated simulation where these intangible "hard earned skills" you describe suddenly equate into a flawless playthrough on your first go. Something about that doesn't sit well with me.

The truth is, if I can get through a game without dying on my first try, that really isn't poor game design. What it typically means is that this is a game that wasn't designed to challenge a gamer of my skill level, or that I should have selected "Extreme" instead of "Hard" in the options menu.

I have trained in the martial arts most of my life, so maybe my perspective on this is different than yours. Let me elaborate on what that's been like for me. In the beginning, like all neophytes, I was awkward. I fell a lot and I wasn't very flexible. I tried to memorize the proper ways of executing this punch, that kick, this parry, that throw, until eventually they became reflex. They became second nature. Sparring against fellow students was, at first, a painful and humbling experience. This "Trial and Error" you described was part of the equation of course. He could think and feel and react, although usually his experience, his skill, and his time in that ring far surpassed mine. Was it unfair? Not in the least. Those guys earned their skills just as I was earning mine, and in time I became just as formidable as they were. The reason is because I learned from the ass-whoopings, from the repetition, from the trial-and-error.

Look up "skill" in the dictionary. You may be surprised to see how many entries describe it as something earned through practice, through trial-and-error, and training. It's the same in real life as it is in games, as you mentioned.

You used the military example, and that doesn't seem right either. Sure, you can prepare and train all you want, utilize your skills to the utmost degree, but a stray bullet, even from friendly fire, can end your life in a heartbeat. It's not fair, but it is definitely realistic. In every scenario you gave, in every analogy, there is equal room there for the unexpected, the unpredictable. I'm also confused by this part of your article because you simultaneously suggest that in the game scenario you should be able to make it through the fight without a scratch if it was designed right while simultaneously condemning simple punishment mechanics. Would you prefer to start the whole game over after making a mistake? That seems to be the antithesis of your article, yet you make mention of such "retry" mechanics as a negative.

You described unexpected or unpredictable elements as "cheap" and "unfair", but if we always saw everything coming, we would never be surprised would we? Isn't part of the fun of gaming discovering the unknown and experiencing the unexpected? I feel that games would get stale if we didn't occasionally cross over the hill to be staring down the barrels of a chaingun.

But the real question is this: If you, if I, if Summa or anyone else here can get through the game in one go, without a single recorded death, yet Joe Shmoe dies 100 times in his playthrough, does that mean Joe sucks? Who do you design a game like that for? Is it "good game design" for the hardcore and "fucking unfair" for the masses? You can't please everyone in one game, which is why they have difficulty levels selectable in most games. Your "perfect game" doesn't exist.

Which brings me to your closest examples. Ico and Prince of Persia, both games that don't so much rely on combat as on solving puzzles. It's no surprise then that these fit your criteria closest. Fighting is easy or in many cases unnecessary, and the meat of the game comes from brain-teasing puzzles and situations.

Varying skill levels are also the main "problem" you'd be facing in your perfectly designed game. I know for a fact that no matter where you were when you hit your first hump in Gears of War, someone surpassed that without dying once. That spot that had you stuck for hours dying over and over was breezed through by someone better than you. In the end, it sounds to me like you just didn't have the skill to get past that part on your first try, and someone else did. Is that a failing of you? No, but neither is it a failure in game design. Blaming every tough spot in a game on poor game design simply because you died 10-20 times sounds an awful lot like an excuse. I'm not saying that's what it is for you, but that is definitely how it sounds.

I agree with Campbell up there. Games these days feature way too much hand-holding and easy gameplay. Personally, give me DMC3 difficulty over "never die cuz I'm too awesome" any day. I grinned my way through DMC3 thinking, "Now THIS is a game." Masochistic maybe, but that's what I've always considered to be hardcore. Is it unfair in spots? Yes. But toned back just a bit (hey, difficulty slider!), it would be quite perfect.

In the end you can't make anyone happy with your suggested changes. Changing the way games are designed in the manner you suggest means coming up with some sort of gamer "default". What the "average" gamer would find just difficult enough to make them feel accomplished, yet not so hard that they die a few times. It sounds an awful lot like coddling and pandering to a crowd that can't stand to lose. Sore losers. I hate to boil it down to that, but it sounds an awful lot like just that.

At that point it ceases to be a game and becomes something different. Call it an experience. Interactive movie. Call it whatever you like, but my words for something like that aren't so kind. It's not even a game at that point. I think it's that line of thinking that has made game designers so scared to put some serious challenge into a game.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 04:18
Mxyzptlk
I don't agree that "challenge" has to mean "dying a lot". There's plenty of other ways games can test me without my life bar draining completely. Shadow of the Colossus was a great example that someone mentioned earlier. And I despise cheap deaths. Nothing is worse than coming around a corner only to blindly fall into a spiked pit. If a developer expects you to memorize exactly when to hit the jump button 20 times in a row, that's just lousy game design that should have been left in the 8-bit era. It all depends on what the focus of the game is. If I'm playing something like Ninja Gaiden, then I expect to die often. But if I'm playing an adventure game, maybe not so much. As long as a game challenges me in some way, whether it's my finger dexterity or my mental processes, I'm happy.
Mister Disco's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 04:42
Mister Disco
I agree to an extent, Mxyzptlk, but then you get into genre issues. I say, if you are going to play a game where everyone has a gun of some kind, expect to die a lot. Things like that. Perhaps not an adventure game, yes. I know I haven't died in any of the 3D Zelda games, for example, and I was fine with that because it was well made and it felt good exploring and solving puzzles. Overwhelming challenge in those games would have felt... I dunno, weird. Even the optional multilevel dungeons aren't that bad.

So perhaps, Chad's problem is that he's playing the wrong games? Or perhaps expecting all games to bend to a single genre's norms? Surely the adventure genre isn't full of ball-busters so much as ancient platformers and modern FPSs.
Ocelot's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 07:20
Ocelot
Definitely a well written article. The way I see it, games today are so goddamn short that if you didn't die a hundred times you'd breeze right through it. Ninja Gaiden for XBOX was too fuggin hard and Just Cause for 360 was way too easy. Games I find at a perfect difficulty are Castlevania: SOTN and Dead Rising. SOTN was challenging with the bosses, but if you took your time everything worked out fine. Dead Rising wasn't about your death so much as the deaths of others. Another good example is the KOTOR series as you had the option of the auto-pause at certain parts or going all out action-RPG.

Games you have to take your time with are fine to lower the challenge a bit but as long as companies want to shoot out crappy 6-10 hours worth of gameplay the only way you could possibly feel fulfilled is if you died a million times to achieve victory.
Azrael's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 09:22
Azrael
I certainly hope this has nothing to do with Super
Paper Mario and the fact you CANT die in that game, unless you are having seuizures while playing. THATS NOT due to great design I assure small kids will die and retry while trying to play it, that game was rated "E" but it should've been rated "C" (Early childhood) and deep inside you know it.

Besides whats the big problem about Nintendo making an authentic childrens game? my kids ussually complain about the difficulty in most "E" games, so whats so bad about a game done for them specifically? I actually think we should have more.
Gary71313's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 09:33
Gary71313
Yeah i definitely thought that was a penis but the color on my computer screen is screwed up so it looks alot like a penis. I have to agree with you that dieing alot can be annoying. I was just playing Starfox 64 yesterday on my wii and i kept dieing because i didn't know how to kill one of the bosses. After a few tries i got it but really it should be your overall skill of a certain game that gets you through levels not doing the guessing game or trial and error.
twentythoughts's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 10:27
twentythoughts
I think Zelda 3 is still one of the perfect examples of a challenging game that you can still beat. The first time you play through the game, it's tough, and some of the bosses are devils to beat. You will die if you screw up. First time players are likely to see the Game Over screen a few times. But it's all logical, and it's all beatable.

A game should allow you to die. A game should NOT make you replay the last hour if you screw up once. And fer Chrissakes, don't do sudden unavoidable deaths. It's one thing to make a situation like a puzzle that you have to figure out as you go along, dying if you fail, but I'd like to be ABLE to respond to a situation without having to remember how to do it from the start.

The Metal Gear Solid games do it well, too.
Chad Concelmo's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 11:25
Chad Concelmo
Wow, you guys are AWESOME! Seriously, each and every one of your comments raised valid points and I wish I could respond to them all.
I definitely agree with most of you that games should never be too easy. That drives me insane just as much (if not more) than a game that is unfairly hard.
ExpertPenguin said something perfect: "if you went through each Mega Man platformer without dying, it'd take you roughly 45 minutes to an hour..."
I could not agree with you more, but I think therein lies the issue. Should games really increase gameplay hours just by adding cheap deaths that force you to have to replay levels over and over? It really is a fine line, I guess.
Oh, and since a lot of you brought it up, Shadow of the Colossus is also another game I think is close to challenge perfection (I just didn't want to list too many earlier).
Some other games of note that didn't make the original post: Pikmin 2, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Super Metroid, Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King.
Okay, I will stop now. I could go on all day. :)
Thanks again for the amazing responses!
brad drac's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 13:20
brad drac
Forgive me for skipping all the comments here, but in regards to that bit in the heatman stage in mega man 2; that's what item-2 was for. One of the greatest thing about mega man was that, although it was always hard, there was usually another way of doing things(like the rock/paper/scissors weaknesses of the bosses). In a sense, the games were progressive in that they didn't just expect you to deal with everything thrown at you by simply mindlessly blasting away with your arm cannon.
Chad Concelmo's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 15:09
Chad Concelmo
@brad drac,
I totally agree with you on the Item 2 thing (huzzah!), but how else to know what weapons to use on each boss than with trail and error? Sure, it may be obvious to use the Bubble Lead on Heat Man, but the Air Shooter on Crash Man? How am I supposed to know that?
Im OK's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 15:52
Im OK
For me, it's completely a matter of whatever mood I'm in at the time. Usually I prefer games that are relatively easy to only moderately difficult to play, something that's not so awfully punishing that I get so pissed that I started yanking my hair out. But there are times when I just want to play a game that is guaranteed to kick my ass hard, just to see how long I can take it before I get fed up with it, and if I can make it farther than I did the last time I tried it.

Another thing that I think is cool about some games are those that are, on the whole, relatively easy, but which have the insanely hard optional areas. Usually, completing these areas net you some pretty awesome benefits that help you in the main game (though sometimes they're just flat out game-breaking), so the reward is usually fitting to the level of difficulty. Games like this that don't provide an appropriate pay-off, however, can suck my balls.

A game that's just hard for the sake of being hard, or to make the game seem longer because you're having to replay a lot of it due to dying a lot, without any real payoff in the end other than "bragging rights", really isn't my cup of tea, most of the time. Most games that are insanely hard, that I've played at least, are the ones where it's pretty much just rote memorization of enemy attack patterns that totally rape you when you first encounter them, but once you have it figured out it becomes relatively simple, if not flat out easy. Those kind of games can be decent, and while I can enjoy them from time to time, they're not the kind of games that I seek out or like to play most of the time.
gameboyhippo's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 16:20
gameboyhippo
I think the problem with games these days is not that you can die, but that you have infinite continues. These days when I complete a game, I can't remember very much of it. I just went through it. But games like Sonic the Hedgehog, brings back memories since I had to play through the whole thing again every time I died. Extra lives became worth getting and grabbing 50 rings in the bonus stage was a necessity.

So I think if they'd just take out the continue options and fix the save so that if you continued, it erased the 'save', games would be fun again!
Sir Depressive's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 17:55
Sir Depressive
>A game that comes to mind that involved character death to being permanent unless a certain course of action was taken before hand is an old DOS game that's abandonware now. I can't remember the title but it was set in feudal Japan and the goal was for your character to climb the ranks of the Japanese feudal system.
Sword of the Samurai?
emo zema's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 22:15
emo zema
i'de like too mention other fair games too go with ico & PoP
RE4, shadow of colossus, fire emblem ,metroid just a few i thought were fair not to hard but still gave u a sence of accomplisment (fuck can't spell) .

castlevania & DMC on the other hand make me wan't to kill myself .
brad drac's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 22:19
brad drac
-> Kokomo: Air shooter on crash man was easy; he jumps a lot, and it's the only weapon that shoots upwards(same as quick man). The only thing that really annoys me about that game is that I got to the very last boss when I was like 7, but couldn't beat it. I was shooting it for ages, but for some reason didn't try bubble lead(the only thing that damages it at all). It pissed me off so much when I beat it recently, because it's actually really, really easy.

-> Depressive: Also, diablo 2 hardcore mode. Fun for masochists everywhere.
Blazingluke's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/21/2007 22:47
Blazingluke
I just recently picked up Metal Gear Solid again. I was into it a few years back but couldn't beat REX and eventually gave up. It still gave me a hard time! I managed to beat him after dying many many times (normal difficulty) so maybe my strategy was wrong...rewarding when I finally got it though!
Boris Lugosi's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 00:26
Boris Lugosi
I only read part of the article (SO long!), but there was only 1 very small part in Gears of War where I felt "stuck". It's not that hard of a game, even on the difficult setting. And Super Mario Bros? Trial and error? Walk right, don't get hit, don't fall in holes. Come on. I've got a copy of Super Paper Mario if you want to borrow that.
Iceciro's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 00:43
Iceciro
I'm the type who LOVES a challenge. But the challenge should be of a type surmountable by intelligent thinking, not cruel memorization. A good example of this is a recent episode during a game of Oblivion (running Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul which makes it harder). I had to fight a couple of mages and a giant orc guy to advance. Obviously the key was to drop the mages first because they're light, but I couldnt get past the heavily armored orc with the big axe. Eventually I came up with the idea to use poison to drop him to the floor while I mopped up his mage allies. That's the kind of problem solving within the game that should be rewarded.
The-Excel's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 01:07
The-Excel
So what's your stance on shmups (which rely almost entirely on memorization in some cases)?
Im OK's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 04:40
Im OK
@The-Excel

For me personally, except for a rare few like the original SNES Star Fox or the original PC version of Silpheed, I can pretty much do without. I'm someone who didn't like Panzer Dragoon Orta, for instance, which I'm sure a lot of people would probably consider some kind of crime against nature.
Buckwheat TZA's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 10:12
Buckwheat TZA
if it was just a case of memory wouldn't everyone in the world have the same joint top score on games that rely on patterns like donkey kong?

i have always thought that a mark of a good game is when i die in the game i feel like it was my fault, my inability or a loss of concentration. conversly if every time i die i'm cursing the game and thinking that it's unfair or i'm being cheated then theres probably some sort of design flaw.


Painuser's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/22/2007 12:28
Painuser
Talking of difficulty and referring to Ninja Gaiden always makes me cringe. The combat system is what makes games such as that, but since their isnt a in depth system to destroy the hordes of enemies coming at you, its not that relevant as far as skill goes in executing them. Only really have placement, come play a game like Devil May Cry 3 : DA on DMD mode and see what real play is on a "hard" game.
PetiePal's Avatar - Comment posted on 04/23/2007 15:09
PetiePal
"You can't really win if you can't die."

QFT.

For the majority of games this holds true. However I do like Crackdown's approach to dying. Zelda pinned it well later in the series as well. Half a heart for the lava shows you you'd die, but doesn't make you sit through ridiculous cutscenes again. You can get RIGHT BACK TO THE ACTION. That's kind of the point.

The WORST, by far, is the Grand Theft Auto series. My brother has playing Vice City Stories and he's gotten so frustrated with one mission. He came to me for advice, and even got ME the game for my birthday in hopes I'd have an easier time beating that mission and giving him advice. People are saying that the mission is the hardest in GTA history.

The mission in questions is a 3-part mission which involves collecting something, killing someone, then helping a man escaping in a car escape by magnetically capturing his car with a helicopter. The last part is just about impossible. If you fail, you have to do about 20 minutes of the first 2 parts all over again. No checkpoint, just frustration. And it's not a side mission, it's one of the MAIN story-driving missions.

That seems cheap and ruins the game play asthetic to me. If you're going to die a lot a requirement should be that jumping back in is quick and easy.
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