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Enjoyed the post!
I think the fact that none of his individual political/moral beliefs are present in the game (that I noticed) makes it much easier to ignore his involvement. I bought the game before I even knew about it. In retrospect, I don't think it would have changed my mind about buying the game -- although it definitely changes my opinion of him.
I think the fact that none of his individual political/moral beliefs are present in the game (that I noticed) makes it much easier to ignore his involvement. I bought the game before I even knew about it. In retrospect, I don't think it would have changed my mind about buying the game -- although it definitely changes my opinion of him.
Thanks, and I fully acknowledge the fact that this game has nothing directly to do with the views of his that I oppose. I was going to talk about this further in a section about the seperation of art and artist, but as I explained it was getting too long - so maybe another time :)
I agree with what you're saying, and that's about the view that I have too. I mentioned this somewhere, but I also have to factor all people involved when I boycott something, and Card's relatively minor involvement in Shadow Complex wasn't enough for me to boycott and, like you said, deprive myself of a great product. But, like you say, it is a complex issue, as boycotts should always be.
Although the game itself contains nothing in regards to his anti-gay views, I DO think it's a riot that the terrorists plan on blowing up San Francisco first!
Enjoyed the post, by the way. I think Jim said it perfectly: like Wagner, I'll buy his intellectual property, but he's still an asshole.
Enjoyed the post, by the way. I think Jim said it perfectly: like Wagner, I'll buy his intellectual property, but he's still an asshole.
I personally agree with your post and most of it's sentiments. I really don't like OSC for more than just his beliefs on gay marriage, but because I think a lot of his literature espouses an uncomfortable and simplistic political stance (the Ender series went off into a weird tangent defending fascism or something that didn't sit well with me).
I DO think, however, it's important to note that Chair do have something of a "relationship" with Card. Their first game was Advent Rising which involved him, and they also are working on an Ender's Game title and most likely other video games based around OSC's work somehow.
So, there's no question Chair are hitching themselves to OSC's work and reputation as a writer (though it's interesting that Shadow Complex distances itself so heavily from Empire that they might as well not bothered). I personally think it's a mistake, but in the case of Shadow Complex, I find it hard to personally boycott as it's a solid title and doesn't really have any politics in it. If people want to though, I understand.
I DO think, however, it's important to note that Chair do have something of a "relationship" with Card. Their first game was Advent Rising which involved him, and they also are working on an Ender's Game title and most likely other video games based around OSC's work somehow.
So, there's no question Chair are hitching themselves to OSC's work and reputation as a writer (though it's interesting that Shadow Complex distances itself so heavily from Empire that they might as well not bothered). I personally think it's a mistake, but in the case of Shadow Complex, I find it hard to personally boycott as it's a solid title and doesn't really have any politics in it. If people want to though, I understand.
There'll always be someone who doesn't dig the preferences of others. Best to agree to disagree and move on. Whether you want to miss out on this game is another thing.
Having such views is all about miseductation, but at the same time, there's no law saying you must love and agree with everybody. IMO, I say let people do what the hell they want, so long as they aren't hurting or oppressing anyone, and get on with your own life.
I say buy the game, or wait for a discount and buy it, as I'm sure more than one person worked on it, and not everyone is an angel or saint. That's just how the world is.
I too will be looking to stiff Activision for their bullshit.
Having such views is all about miseductation, but at the same time, there's no law saying you must love and agree with everybody. IMO, I say let people do what the hell they want, so long as they aren't hurting or oppressing anyone, and get on with your own life.
I say buy the game, or wait for a discount and buy it, as I'm sure more than one person worked on it, and not everyone is an angel or saint. That's just how the world is.
I too will be looking to stiff Activision for their bullshit.
And that's why making me pay money for Left 4 Dead 2 is evil...what? Oh, sorry, this was a well-thought out, reasonable argument. Kudos, sir.
It all really comes down to point 1.
The fact is that money that goes to Orson Scott Card will eventually be used to promote legislation that actively damages gay families. Thus the comparisons to Gary Glitter and the Dragon Quest composer are totally irrelevant. Gary Glitter doesn't sit on the board of NAMBLA and NAMBLA isn't even running any successful ballot initiative campaigns anyway. OSC is a very active member of a very active organization that has been very successful at taking away gay people's basic civil rights. Maybe you didn't know that. Maybe now you do. If so, then the boycott has worked. Awareness has been raised.
The fact is that money that goes to Orson Scott Card will eventually be used to promote legislation that actively damages gay families. Thus the comparisons to Gary Glitter and the Dragon Quest composer are totally irrelevant. Gary Glitter doesn't sit on the board of NAMBLA and NAMBLA isn't even running any successful ballot initiative campaigns anyway. OSC is a very active member of a very active organization that has been very successful at taking away gay people's basic civil rights. Maybe you didn't know that. Maybe now you do. If so, then the boycott has worked. Awareness has been raised.
This is an issue I've been wrestling with internally ever since I found out about the game, but I never brought it up because I was worried about the knee-jerk defensive reaction people in the gaming community might have. I'm honestly surprised by the amount of intelligent discussion that's come out surrounding the game. I couldn't be more happy.
I was a strong opponent of Proposition 8 here in California. When my wife and I got married we had someone read a section of the Massachusetts Court case that legalized gay marriage in that state, and we also donated money to gay marriage advocacy groups instead of having a gift registry. Despite my involvement in equal marriage rights, I still bought Shadow Complex. I had a lot of reservations about it. I still do. But I firmly believe in the marketplace of ideas and that the most intelligent arguments can be strengthened by having to publicly encounter disagreements. I wish I didn't have to give money to Orson Scott Card or in some way encourage his artistic clout by purchasing Shadow Complex. But on the other hand, the game's popularity has brought a lot of attention to some of his more reprehensible ideas, so maybe some good has come of it.
I was a strong opponent of Proposition 8 here in California. When my wife and I got married we had someone read a section of the Massachusetts Court case that legalized gay marriage in that state, and we also donated money to gay marriage advocacy groups instead of having a gift registry. Despite my involvement in equal marriage rights, I still bought Shadow Complex. I had a lot of reservations about it. I still do. But I firmly believe in the marketplace of ideas and that the most intelligent arguments can be strengthened by having to publicly encounter disagreements. I wish I didn't have to give money to Orson Scott Card or in some way encourage his artistic clout by purchasing Shadow Complex. But on the other hand, the game's popularity has brought a lot of attention to some of his more reprehensible ideas, so maybe some good has come of it.
Just wanted to thank everyone before I go to bed for all the cool comments. I'll catch up in the morning!
The "Why do People Boycott?" Section is key here.
The hardcore middle aged gamers. Are trying to highlight a issue they deem to be worthy in cause/nature. Making noise that future generations will quibble with, in the future. Duh.
It also helps the cause of the industry. Too get to know personalities behind their scripts / games. Only furthering the industry to the point of making a point/counterpoint with their games. When they aspire to grow up in a culture of videogame design / industry.
Taking names & kicking ass on the digital battlefront. That is XBL or PSN & the Interwebs. While living their lives day to day in the world we share or deem ours for the taking.
The hardcore middle aged gamers. Are trying to highlight a issue they deem to be worthy in cause/nature. Making noise that future generations will quibble with, in the future. Duh.
It also helps the cause of the industry. Too get to know personalities behind their scripts / games. Only furthering the industry to the point of making a point/counterpoint with their games. When they aspire to grow up in a culture of videogame design / industry.
Taking names & kicking ass on the digital battlefront. That is XBL or PSN & the Interwebs. While living their lives day to day in the world we share or deem ours for the taking.
I meant to comment earlier, but I got swept in to some other stuff. So, please excuse my late (and stream-of-consciousy) comment!
Your comment on Jim's post about this matter was one of the ones that made me stand up and say, "YES. End of thread." I'm really happy to see you expand your thoughts here.
Personally, I experienced the dilemma associated with buying the game and giving Card even the tiniest bit of my money, but eventually gave in and did it anyway. I still have a glimmer of worry that the small amount of money may be used in harmful ways, but at the same time, I'm really happy all this happened. There is so much awareness in the air right now that it's great for the cause opposing Card's. Not to mention that the whole thing is swaying many people to donate to the HRC.
I am against Card and what he could possibly do with the money he gets, but honestly, what makes me really angry are all the people who have been badmouthing the boycotters because there's no anti-gay content in the actual game. Things like boycotting Left4Dead 2 are completely silly, but there is an entirely reasonable explanation behind this one: they just don't want to give money to the chair of a well known anti-gay organization. Why some people can't understand this, I'll never know, but I must thank you for doing so.
Your comment on Jim's post about this matter was one of the ones that made me stand up and say, "YES. End of thread." I'm really happy to see you expand your thoughts here.
Personally, I experienced the dilemma associated with buying the game and giving Card even the tiniest bit of my money, but eventually gave in and did it anyway. I still have a glimmer of worry that the small amount of money may be used in harmful ways, but at the same time, I'm really happy all this happened. There is so much awareness in the air right now that it's great for the cause opposing Card's. Not to mention that the whole thing is swaying many people to donate to the HRC.
I am against Card and what he could possibly do with the money he gets, but honestly, what makes me really angry are all the people who have been badmouthing the boycotters because there's no anti-gay content in the actual game. Things like boycotting Left4Dead 2 are completely silly, but there is an entirely reasonable explanation behind this one: they just don't want to give money to the chair of a well known anti-gay organization. Why some people can't understand this, I'll never know, but I must thank you for doing so.
I never actually knew about Card's views until this game came out. Right now, I'm not buying any games until my backlog get's reduced, so I'm giving Shadow Complex a miss for now.
But as you pointed out, how do I know that someone that works on Left 4 Dead 2 or Bioshcok 2 isn't a homophobe? Or a racist? Or some kind of bigot. I don't, but if it did it would definitely affect my purchase to buy a game, but that is my choice as an informed consumer.
But as you pointed out, how do I know that someone that works on Left 4 Dead 2 or Bioshcok 2 isn't a homophobe? Or a racist? Or some kind of bigot. I don't, but if it did it would definitely affect my purchase to buy a game, but that is my choice as an informed consumer.
Very well written. I, like Ali D, had no idea what Card's beliefs were. I too have other games I need to finish up, along with the new Batman game that I plan to pick up today, so Shadow Complex is being passed on for the time being.
Card's views are a little bit alarming, but as for a boycott...if we look at the big picture, what is he getting in royalties? Pennies? Half the price? A dollar for every purchase? Besides feeling good about denying an obvious homophobe some unknown monetary amount, is he even going to care about a minority of gamers boycotting this game? He is still going to get a check in the mail every so often. The checks won't state what he missed out because a group of people refuse to buy the game based on his work.
I don't want to go into what I feel the boycotters should do instead of denying themselves what could be one of the best XBLA games release...if they feel they made a difference, good for them.
I do have to say that this comment from Card disturbed me:
They [gay people getting married] steal from me what I treasure most, and gain for themselves nothing at all. They won’t be married. They’ll just be playing dress-up in their parents’ clothes.
I have two gay friends that are living together. They want desperately to be able to prove legally that they love and care for each other. Letting them get married isn't taking anything from me, a married heterosexual. They aren't going to get married and then go burn down a church or demand that all men should marry other men. So I don't understand how someone could say something like this, actively wanting to deny their fellow human the rights that they are able to enjoy.
Card's views are a little bit alarming, but as for a boycott...if we look at the big picture, what is he getting in royalties? Pennies? Half the price? A dollar for every purchase? Besides feeling good about denying an obvious homophobe some unknown monetary amount, is he even going to care about a minority of gamers boycotting this game? He is still going to get a check in the mail every so often. The checks won't state what he missed out because a group of people refuse to buy the game based on his work.
I don't want to go into what I feel the boycotters should do instead of denying themselves what could be one of the best XBLA games release...if they feel they made a difference, good for them.
I do have to say that this comment from Card disturbed me:
They [gay people getting married] steal from me what I treasure most, and gain for themselves nothing at all. They won’t be married. They’ll just be playing dress-up in their parents’ clothes.
I have two gay friends that are living together. They want desperately to be able to prove legally that they love and care for each other. Letting them get married isn't taking anything from me, a married heterosexual. They aren't going to get married and then go burn down a church or demand that all men should marry other men. So I don't understand how someone could say something like this, actively wanting to deny their fellow human the rights that they are able to enjoy.
@Zombiekiller13
Well, in the section 'Why Do People Boycott?' I pointed out it isn't necessarily to harm someone or cut away their profits - it's because they have a choice about where their own money goes and they have decided that none of it will get to him, no matter how small an amount it may be, and it's to highlight the issue to people. So it really doesn't matter whether OSC is aware in any way or not, nor whether he cares - that's not the point.
Well, in the section 'Why Do People Boycott?' I pointed out it isn't necessarily to harm someone or cut away their profits - it's because they have a choice about where their own money goes and they have decided that none of it will get to him, no matter how small an amount it may be, and it's to highlight the issue to people. So it really doesn't matter whether OSC is aware in any way or not, nor whether he cares - that's not the point.
@ Jumbo.
What he does with the money after I purchase the game is none of my business. I spent 15 dollars on a very fun game with very good replay value from a possible homophobe. I dont care..at all. I could buy a 60 dollar game from a crackhead and if he goes and buys more drugs I am not bothered a bit. And this is all based on a guess of what the money would go to, not fact.
What he does with the money after I purchase the game is none of my business. I spent 15 dollars on a very fun game with very good replay value from a possible homophobe. I dont care..at all. I could buy a 60 dollar game from a crackhead and if he goes and buys more drugs I am not bothered a bit. And this is all based on a guess of what the money would go to, not fact.
I couldn't care less if he is a scientologist, a neo-nazi or whatever. Such boycott is so hypocrite, specially when the game has nothing to do about it.
Excellent post.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'll play Shadow Complex and Orson Scott Card, good or bad, won't ever cross my mind. If he uses the money I'll give him from buying the game to further an anti-homosexual agenda, that's unfortunate, but then again it's also his prerogative. At that point it's up to me and everyone else to be smarter than the agenda and see through the bullshit. But I refuse to let politics and/or ideologies get between myself and enjoying a form of entertainment.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'll play Shadow Complex and Orson Scott Card, good or bad, won't ever cross my mind. If he uses the money I'll give him from buying the game to further an anti-homosexual agenda, that's unfortunate, but then again it's also his prerogative. At that point it's up to me and everyone else to be smarter than the agenda and see through the bullshit. But I refuse to let politics and/or ideologies get between myself and enjoying a form of entertainment.
Djnx -
First of all explain to me how boycotting is hypocritical, in light of what I have said?
Secondly - to use your example what if he WAS a neo-nazi, and what if he spent a lot of time and money on anti-semitic political campaigns (just as OSC does in the case of gay rights). Would you want him to have your money then? Maybe you'd be okay with it, but surely you could understand if someone wasn't okay with it, whether or not the game has anything to do with it or not
First of all explain to me how boycotting is hypocritical, in light of what I have said?
Secondly - to use your example what if he WAS a neo-nazi, and what if he spent a lot of time and money on anti-semitic political campaigns (just as OSC does in the case of gay rights). Would you want him to have your money then? Maybe you'd be okay with it, but surely you could understand if someone wasn't okay with it, whether or not the game has anything to do with it or not
@PhantomSpaceman
"STFUAJPG"
Thank you for demonstrating exactly the sort of inane trivialisation of the issue that I was arguing against.
"STFUAJPG"
Thank you for demonstrating exactly the sort of inane trivialisation of the issue that I was arguing against.
I disagree with the majority of your points respectfully. I won't devulge into why because there is no way I'm typing all that. However I will say that in no way do I think the boycotters are stupid. Not at all. However I do believe there is a certain level of unrealism by boycotting. I think it would be better to join the ranks of whomever (and there's a group somewhere) is civally trying to quell Mr. Card's fears. A boycott is, in my opinion, just another brick in the wall. A partition blinding you from the real issue. It's a personal choice and I don't think anyone is wrong to do it I just think it's not a good idea.
I'm a bisexual male. I know lesbians and gays, I defend the LGBT community vigorously hear in rural, buttfuck nowhere Maryland, and I will be enjoying Shadow Complex next week after payday and I encourage others to do the same as it's a great game. As far as Mr. Card's involvement goes that's where the issue you didn't touch, the artist and the art, comes into play. As far as I can tell this isn't even Card's baby really. It's Chair, the develop.
And you know if Mr. Card work hard and does a damn good job at whatever his job is I am more than happy to support. I consider it a joke on him that I'm enjoying his work.
I'm a bisexual male. I know lesbians and gays, I defend the LGBT community vigorously hear in rural, buttfuck nowhere Maryland, and I will be enjoying Shadow Complex next week after payday and I encourage others to do the same as it's a great game. As far as Mr. Card's involvement goes that's where the issue you didn't touch, the artist and the art, comes into play. As far as I can tell this isn't even Card's baby really. It's Chair, the develop.
And you know if Mr. Card work hard and does a damn good job at whatever his job is I am more than happy to support. I consider it a joke on him that I'm enjoying his work.
i'm not huge on boycotting or whatnot, though i think there are political cases for it - but boycotts are so difficult to make succeed, they require a large-scale community awareness and committment which is often extremely difficult to forge.
but i do have to admit that certain things will personally affect me, and incline my personal consumer-habits, as you stated. i had been getting interested in Shadow Complex, but hearing this... has turned me against getting it. particularly when you mentioned he was actually part of an anti-gay marriage organization. i'm not judging those who buy it - my brother did (though after we found out about Card's homophobia - there's no other honest way to describe his views other than "homophobia."). but i've lost interest.
i read Ender's Game when i was a teenager, and read much of the rest of the sequels, which i have rather fond memories of. finding out he has such hateful views about homosexuality is mortifying to me - it may not be totally rational, but i actually feel *betrayed* by him to discover this.
i'm even more startled, considering how he makes such an issue in Ender's Game about parents' rights to have multiple children - for anyone who hasnt read, the Earth of Ender's Game restricts parents to having only two children (iirc). Card depicts this as a great and depressing crime, a horrible decision by an authoritarian power, yet the man cannot accept - and actively campaigns against! - the harmless marriage of a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. perhaps he simply despises childless marriages? somehow i doubt this.
but i do have to admit that certain things will personally affect me, and incline my personal consumer-habits, as you stated. i had been getting interested in Shadow Complex, but hearing this... has turned me against getting it. particularly when you mentioned he was actually part of an anti-gay marriage organization. i'm not judging those who buy it - my brother did (though after we found out about Card's homophobia - there's no other honest way to describe his views other than "homophobia."). but i've lost interest.
i read Ender's Game when i was a teenager, and read much of the rest of the sequels, which i have rather fond memories of. finding out he has such hateful views about homosexuality is mortifying to me - it may not be totally rational, but i actually feel *betrayed* by him to discover this.
i'm even more startled, considering how he makes such an issue in Ender's Game about parents' rights to have multiple children - for anyone who hasnt read, the Earth of Ender's Game restricts parents to having only two children (iirc). Card depicts this as a great and depressing crime, a horrible decision by an authoritarian power, yet the man cannot accept - and actively campaigns against! - the harmless marriage of a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. perhaps he simply despises childless marriages? somehow i doubt this.
I almost never support boycotting games for one key reason.
I am aware that OSC will be getting royalties from my money. But my money is also going to the hard working folks at Chair. They put all those hours to make a great game and I want to support them. Only a small precentile is going to OSC's royalties. The rest of all our money is going to Microsoft and Chair.
BTW @Reverend Macro
Chair didn't make Advent Rising. GlyphX did.
I am aware that OSC will be getting royalties from my money. But my money is also going to the hard working folks at Chair. They put all those hours to make a great game and I want to support them. Only a small precentile is going to OSC's royalties. The rest of all our money is going to Microsoft and Chair.
BTW @Reverend Macro
Chair didn't make Advent Rising. GlyphX did.
wow i guess i'm one of those people that wants to trivialise this.
you can call it inane or whatever you like, but just because we didn't write a thousand word essay on the subject doesn't mean our opinions don't matter. frankly it doesn't require much writing to communicate that this is a non issue, and definitely not a new or unique one.
you can call it inane or whatever you like, but just because we didn't write a thousand word essay on the subject doesn't mean our opinions don't matter. frankly it doesn't require much writing to communicate that this is a non issue, and definitely not a new or unique one.
feighnt -
Although as I said I'm not boycotting, I can directly relate to your experience. I also read and loved Ender's Game - I actually finished it in one long sitting ending at 6am. I liked it so much that when I woke up in the afternoon, I immediately looked the author up to find out more about him - and was confronted with that Salon article I linked to. I was sure that if he can write such great stuff he must be a pretty good guy (I've generally found that to be true with other authors I like). So it was like being punched in the face.
@Xyzliac -
Maybe you don't disagree with as much as what I'm saying as you think. While you disagree with a boycott (for different reasons to the reasons why I am not boycotting), you seem at least to agree with my basic point which is what I really wanted to get across, which is that this is not a simple issue, and it's not 'obvious' that boycotting is a stupid idea.
Although as I said I'm not boycotting, I can directly relate to your experience. I also read and loved Ender's Game - I actually finished it in one long sitting ending at 6am. I liked it so much that when I woke up in the afternoon, I immediately looked the author up to find out more about him - and was confronted with that Salon article I linked to. I was sure that if he can write such great stuff he must be a pretty good guy (I've generally found that to be true with other authors I like). So it was like being punched in the face.
@Xyzliac -
Maybe you don't disagree with as much as what I'm saying as you think. While you disagree with a boycott (for different reasons to the reasons why I am not boycotting), you seem at least to agree with my basic point which is what I really wanted to get across, which is that this is not a simple issue, and it's not 'obvious' that boycotting is a stupid idea.
Anyone pretentious enough to actually pretend to care about this should go and stand in a corner very, VERY silently.
This article is gay.
In all seriousness, I don't care much for OSC's personality... but I love Ender's Game. It's a fantastic sci-fi novel.
In all seriousness, I don't care much for OSC's personality... but I love Ender's Game. It's a fantastic sci-fi novel.
SurplusGamer: The thing is, a game, just like a movie, comprehends the involvement of so many people at so many different levels that you'd have to boycott everything because there would be a guy that likes dog fights here and another that believes in abortion there, and then one costumer would be saying that dog fights are OK and the other would say that abortion is a sin. I mean, where does it stop?
It is so easy to boycott films, books and games, but how many times you really act against people you really know? That is when it matters. Either way, the game, as far as I know, doesn't talk bad about homosexuals, and there is nothing more useless than aiming at the wrong target.
It is so easy to boycott films, books and games, but how many times you really act against people you really know? That is when it matters. Either way, the game, as far as I know, doesn't talk bad about homosexuals, and there is nothing more useless than aiming at the wrong target.
@Kaspar: Way to go man, fight the pretentious, elitist powers that care about social issues relevant to the world around them! Who are they to have healthy debate and actually CARE about advancing dialogue on one of the defining issues of our times!
/sarcasm
/sarcasm
@Kaspar.
Yes, you're right. People who first brought up the idea were just pretending that it was an issue they cared about, and then I thought I would pretend to be interested in Jim's response, then I pretended that I thought it was important to reply to some of the comments people had made on it. Then I spent a few hours putting effort into this article which I don't really care about, and the majority of people responding have pretended to find my arguments interesting.
Why don't you just pretend to shut the hell up?
Yes, you're right. People who first brought up the idea were just pretending that it was an issue they cared about, and then I thought I would pretend to be interested in Jim's response, then I pretended that I thought it was important to reply to some of the comments people had made on it. Then I spent a few hours putting effort into this article which I don't really care about, and the majority of people responding have pretended to find my arguments interesting.
Why don't you just pretend to shut the hell up?
Very well put. After I thought about it more, it is much more complicated than I originally imagined.
Djnx - again, congratulations for actually reading my article, which clearly answers the point you have just made in not one, not two, but THREE clearly numbered ways.
I bought Shadow Complex and I like it very much. However, considering how minimal the story is, I really wish that they had just come up with something original. I'm not a fan of Orson Scott Card, and I'd most certainly prefer that he not receive any of my money. Though I didn't boycott the game, I fully understand why someone might.
Great read, so thank you. All is agreed with on my end (you can rest easy now) but I'd like to place a special emphasis on the point touched upon by Xzyliac up there. The whole "separation of art from the artist" deal is crucial to me. Too many times I've found myself taking less pleasure in some work of art due to finding out something unfavorable about the artist and to me that's a disservice to myself and even the cause or value I disagree with the artist on. Basically, I feel that by not at least making an attempt to view the work in question objectively you remove yourself from the debate and lose a bit of credibility in the process. If you want to be listened to in terms of said debate you will probably have to listen for a bit yourself. The knowledge that someone homophobic can have a hand in creating a fun game is a boon to making the point that one's lifestyle or sexual preference has no bearing on their creativity, talents, or ability to function in a society. Of course this applies to works like "Shadow Complex" in which the views in question are not vital to or even mentioned in the piece. As for "Gay Bashin' Brawl 3", feel free to boycott that.
@StvnSdrbrg
I do want to discuss this issue of seperation of art from artist because I think it's a really complicated thing... it's one of those philosophical issues that gets more and more thorny the more you get into it. I tried to summarise my views but even that made the post too long. That's really the reason why I barely touched on it here and focused on the other issues surrounding the boycott question.
I know it sounds like I'm dodging it but I don't think I can have a good discussion about this in blog comment form. However we are planning on talking about it in more detail on the next Pondercast (that's a podcast that I do with dtoid contributor Ben Perlee and community member Nishant Dave, and can be found at this page.), where I'll try to make my basic opinions about this known.
I do want to discuss this issue of seperation of art from artist because I think it's a really complicated thing... it's one of those philosophical issues that gets more and more thorny the more you get into it. I tried to summarise my views but even that made the post too long. That's really the reason why I barely touched on it here and focused on the other issues surrounding the boycott question.
I know it sounds like I'm dodging it but I don't think I can have a good discussion about this in blog comment form. However we are planning on talking about it in more detail on the next Pondercast (that's a podcast that I do with dtoid contributor Ben Perlee and community member Nishant Dave, and can be found at this page.), where I'll try to make my basic opinions about this known.
@SurplusGamer
Perhaps. Maybe I'm just fiendin' for a fight. :P
What I didn't mention was this was a well written piece. Congrats.
Perhaps. Maybe I'm just fiendin' for a fight. :P
What I didn't mention was this was a well written piece. Congrats.
@SurplusGamer I got no impression of dodging, and I can see why it was only touched upon in your piece. thanks for the linkage, I can now alienate my few remaining friends by listening to even more podcasts. woot!
@Kasper
Would you mind saying that louder so that all the people who have fought over the years for equal civil liberties for ethnic minorities and women can hear?
@SurplusGamer
Very well written. It may not have changed my mind on the issue, but your points were well established, with sound rationale, and were well worth the time it took to read them. You've earned your homepage spot, man.
Would you mind saying that louder so that all the people who have fought over the years for equal civil liberties for ethnic minorities and women can hear?
@SurplusGamer
Very well written. It may not have changed my mind on the issue, but your points were well established, with sound rationale, and were well worth the time it took to read them. You've earned your homepage spot, man.
People who care enough to boycott a game have as much right to do that as OSC has to his opinion. - glipe
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
I have to agree that this was a well-written, intelligent perspective of that side of the debate. But, my opinion remains that it is silly to boycott Shadow Complex. Not that you can't, I mean, if you want to protest in that form, more power to you. Your voice has been heard, and the movement has certainly gained momentum because of it. I have to agree though, SC is a very strange target to be attacking for this issue, and it almost seems like somebody is trying to stir up trouble where there isn't any. The question to me isn't whether people should boycott it, but whether there are more effective mediums to be boycotting/expressing concern with. I realize point 3 in the article addressed this, but still, most of the people leading this boycott are very well educated on OSC's activities. I can't help but feel the debate is just being dragged on top of SC because somebody felt blood thirsty or something.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
I have to agree that this was a well-written, intelligent perspective of that side of the debate. But, my opinion remains that it is silly to boycott Shadow Complex. Not that you can't, I mean, if you want to protest in that form, more power to you. Your voice has been heard, and the movement has certainly gained momentum because of it. I have to agree though, SC is a very strange target to be attacking for this issue, and it almost seems like somebody is trying to stir up trouble where there isn't any. The question to me isn't whether people should boycott it, but whether there are more effective mediums to be boycotting/expressing concern with. I realize point 3 in the article addressed this, but still, most of the people leading this boycott are very well educated on OSC's activities. I can't help but feel the debate is just being dragged on top of SC because somebody felt blood thirsty or something.
@Electrium
Interesting points. The way I see it, the fine people at Chair who made this game haven't been harmed by the boycott any more than OSC has (which, of course, is not the point of the boycott). So while I can certainly sympathise with your concern that SC, a great game, is being dragged out in front of the firing squad unjustly, there's no question that the game or the people who made it will suffer in any way.
But in the mean time some loud voices have spoken and more people are in a more informed and aware position than they were before, as a result.
Interesting points. The way I see it, the fine people at Chair who made this game haven't been harmed by the boycott any more than OSC has (which, of course, is not the point of the boycott). So while I can certainly sympathise with your concern that SC, a great game, is being dragged out in front of the firing squad unjustly, there's no question that the game or the people who made it will suffer in any way.
But in the mean time some loud voices have spoken and more people are in a more informed and aware position than they were before, as a result.
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