Would Arrested Development have been canceled if it were on Comedy Central? Would Joss Whedon's past two shows have survived if they had aired on SyFy? Maybe, maybe not, but either way, you don't hear Fox executives stating that the "failure" of those projects means that intelligent comedies or sci-fi/dramas aren't a fit for their network. That wouldn't make any sense, right?
Well, that's exactly what Sega is implying about their recent attempts at "mature" content on the Wii. Yep, they're blaming the Wii, and not the games themselves, for the ho-hum sales of MadWorld, The Conduit, and House of the Dead: Overkill. How laughably silly. Even funnier is the bit where Sega states that Dead Space Extraction's poor sales were a sign that "hardcore" games don't sell on the Wii, despite the fact that all three of the Sega's own "hardcore" Wii games outsold EA's on-rails experiment by a fairly large margin.
More so, those three Sega games also outsold Eat Lead: The Return of Matt Hazard (PS3/360 combined, approx. 150,000), Afro Samurai (PS3/360 combined, approx. 300,000), God Hand (PS2, approx. 70,000) and Bionic Commando (PS3/360 combined, approx. 250,000). Furthermore, they didn't all outsell over-2-year-old Wii ports like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare Reflex (approx. 400,000 since November) and Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition (approx 1.5 million). Only a Sith sees things in absolutes, Sega. Yeah, that's right, I went there.
Sega may have a point about the 13-year-olds hating the Wii, though. Most of the "Wii has cooties" comments I've read over the years were written by kids who were just entering puberty. At least, that's my guess, based on the style of their writing.
Full quotes from Sega's Constantine Hantzopoulos after the jump.
“I have to say that it was a space that was open and we took a gamble on it. It’s like, ‘Wow, there’s no mature games on the Wii. Is there an audience out there?’ We did some research, it said there was an audience out there. I won’t comment about Nintendo, they did champion The Conduit as a ‘this is a Nintendo game.’ And, you know, I think they did okay by us. At the end of the day, I just think that you’re seeing kids are skewing much younger towards next-gen. And that’s what I saw out of Conduit. Because not a bad game, visually it’s appealing, right? AI wasn’t that great. High Voltage’s first real effort as an indie developer, creating their own IP. And it was a good effort, right? And there’s always Conduit 2, right? …Anyone past 12 years old was playing 360 and PS3 shooters. And at that point, you can’t tell a 13 year-old, ‘But it’s on the Wii.’ Forget it, you know? That’s not what they see or hear. They’re not really interested in any techno-fetishist aspects of look how great it is on the Wii…And, you know, the effort that we put behind multiplayer on that game to basically get by friend codes and provide worldwide match-making and so on and so forth, I actually thought we dove too deep…
…Circling back to the whole mature Wii thing, again SEGA took a gamble, we put out some pretty decent content. I mean, House of the Dead: Overkill and MadWorld are great Wii games. They really are, especially House of the Dead: Overkill. That game is funny…Yes [it did better than MadWorld]. I mean they’re both doing okay and at the end of the day we’ll make our numbers, that’s good. Conduit’s done quite well for us. It’s been slow burn. That’s the other thing you find out about the Wii. It’s not necessarily first 3 weeks like most titles. And DS. It’s a longer burn, actually. So panicked at first, but it’s like okay.
But that begs the question, are we going to do more mature titles for the Wii? And it’s like, probably not. Look at Dead Space. We were stunned. That was my litmus test. Basically, it’s like, okay, you got EA, who can put all the marketing muscle behind this, an established franchise that scored quite well on 360 and PS3. They should be able to actually hit this out of the park, right? We get numbers, real numbers aside from NPD, and I’m like, ‘Woah.’”
Jonathan Holmes is the most lovable Associate Editor on Destructoid. Catch him on videos, original editorials, and on back episodes of the Destructoid Show and MTV's Road Rules. Jonathan is a retro gamer's gamer.
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-basically every game developer and publisher out there says that
Most mature rated titles on wii do fail, but there are reasons for that.
The developers and publishers will say "Well the wii has no mature market"
A little message to those guys, shut up all ready.
Yes the Wiis mature audience is not as big as that of 360 and PS3 audience, but that isn't the problem.
A publisher just compares sales to a game with a mature rating.
Simply because a game is rated M does NOT mean that it is a good game and should sell well.
Perhaps the CONTENT of the game is what makes us not buy a game.
MW Reflex, didnt buy that simply because of wii speak. YOu can tell me I'm stupid for it. But I'm not the one buying and supporting these developers who make these half ass games.
Dead Space extraction, a F*cking RAIL SHOOTER! Damn, I'm tired of those game...DSE might not of sold well because it was:
-a rail shooter
-had NO replay value,
-had no online (wouldnt it of been cool to play co-op mode with a friend across the world, maybe even talk to him with with speak? but no, apparently the mature rating it what thats about.)
Multiplayer, what the hell happened? Some games don't even have multiplayer, some games don't have online, some games don't have split screen...I mean WTF is that?
-maybe if more games had multiplayer, GOOD multiplayer, it would attract it more customers. Some people buy games JUST for multiplayer.
-Do NOT put in three modes "Free for all, Team Death Match, CTF" that is sh*t my friend.
-Ever seen HALO?! CALL OF DUTY?! I forget how many modes are in that game...
-The Conduit is the ONLY Wii game to attempt at more modes, I was impressed, but I bit disappointed to be honest. I was expecting more ORIGINAL modes, more UNIQUE modes.
Games like Mad World I have heard were just amazing. But I am not a fan of gore, so IF they just put in a FILTER I would of bought it! IF THEY DID! One little thing, and they could of added a sale. ONE little thing. Hell make it so I can change it blue or something, and I would of bought it.
WAW wii had a filter, and that game is a definition of failed sh*t.
No more heroes....god....WTF is that?! Don't flame me or anything, but that game seems to have been created by a 7 year old who just learned how to cuss, what masturbating is, and that girls were hot.
That game is just annoying, "HEY DICK F*CK SH*T!! I WILLZ WANK MY SWORD AND KILL YOU....DICK F*CK"
I want to shoot myself at that game.
That is again, MY opinion of that game. So don't flame me.
Advertising is usually sh*t, so publishers don't always do what they need to do to help boost sales. That is a problem.
So these are the main problems in a shorter way:
-Mature rating does NOT mean its a good game
-CONTENT of a game is what matters, not the damn rating
-Does the game have MULTIPLAYER?! If it does, is it GOOD? Original? Online AND offline?
-The genre can turn us off (rail shooter for example...)
-Remember to make a game MATURE, not IM- MATURE like No more heroes...
-Gore does NOT make a game good (add a filter, is that such a problem)
-ADVERTISE THE GAME RIGHT
So before people say " Wii has no mature audience"
Make the damn game right, and then see how it does.
The two successes you cite are 1) a massive hit franchise with mainstream recognition and 2) a hardcore Japanese console series that people who like Nintendo franchises and have played games for a while, namely Resident Evil games, would eat up, quality or not.
Let's not kid ourselves here, the man has a great point. The younger people start playing mature, deep games on the Xbox, PS3 and (haha) PC, the less likely they will want the Wii equivalent, which is seen as kiddy. It is seen as kiddy by young teens who want to be cool, it is seen as kiddy by older gamers who want to feel like they've moved past it, and it is seen as kiddy by grumpy PC gamers like me who didn't grow up playing Mario and Zelda and think they are kiddy because they're not very deep or interesting to someone who played Baldur's Gate at 14 years old.
Are all Wii games kiddy? Of course not. Even if most games are kiddy and casual does that mean "hardcore" gamers can't enjoy them? Of course not, even I play Peggle and Bejewled. It's an image problem. The Wii has an image problem with that demographic.
My platform has the same thing, the PC has an image problem that makes people think it costs $5,000 to use and required constant upgrades and tweaks and has no games. All this is false, but the image problem remains, perpetuated by a gaming media largely raised on Mario and not Guybrush Threepwood.
Image problems are the bane of good products with little mainstream appeal.
"So before people say " Wii has no mature audience"
Make the damn game right, and then see how it does."
The problem is with the Wii you can only make a Wii game. With the Xbox you can make an Xbox, PS3 and PC game all at once with little extra expense. This means Wii games need to make 3 times the profit as other platforms to make sense for a publisher. Why do you think EA went with Dead Space for a Wii spin-off? So they could reuse assets.
Until the Wii mature demographic proves it exists and buys games, lots of games to match the profitability of the other three platforms at once, games without Resident Evil in the title, no publisher is going to put the effort into a Wii game you are asking for.
Say what you want about the quality of those M-rated Sega games on the Wii, but I get what they are saying. Basically, time and money invested into those games could have been spent on 360 or PS3 versions with a probable increase in sales (and the opportunity to release the game as multi-platform) due to the 360 and PS3's target audiences. I have a hard time thinking that this is a bad argument.
Johnathan, I know you're the Nintendo guy here at Dtoid, but I can't believe that you can't see what's going on here. When the very publisher of these titles is blaming the hardware, you know there has to be something wrong. They gave it a try, and it didn't work. No matter what figures you toss out, they aren't at the level that mature games on the other platforms are. Even new properties like BioShock sold very well, but because that's the target market. I don't see the point in trying to market the Wii to hardcore gamers is, because that isn't even what Nintendo has been doing by releasing stuff like Wii Music. And don't give me that "Metroid: Other M" stuff, because Nintendo has been releasing the same franchises for years. There's a reason most third-party developers don't take chances with mature games on the Wii' It's more than just a stigma.
The Wii has lost almost all its appeal for me. I don't even use mine anymore. No more heroes was good.... mario galaxy was great.... zelda is always fun..... what else is there?
Games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age and the upcoming heavy rain appeal to me. The Wii doesn't really have anything like that. True, Shattered Memories looks interesting, but aside from that.... what else is there? I'm looking at the Gamespot list of Wii games that have come out recently and aside from Shattered Memories I'm not seeing anything good. At all.
Also, I hate to sound like a jackass, but the games you listed that the Wii games outsold wouldn't exactly be considered great by most gamers standards. It doesn't surprise me that MadWorld outsold Matt Hazard, or Afro Samurai. Try comparing MadWorld to BioShock, or Left 4 Dead. The gap becomes much bigger there.
I'd love to disagree with Sega, but I think I have to admit that there isn't much of a mature market when it comes to the Wii. Personally, I actually have quite a few mature games for the Wii, and I love all of them, but I'm definitely in the minority. Hell, even the people who frequent this website who complain that the Wii "doesn't have any games" will also complain when a mature game is actually released for the Wii, bitching that it's not on the PS3 or 360 instead. There's no winning in this situation.
"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."
-Bruce Lee
I see the logic in a tiny portion of this guys argument, on second thoughts no I don't. He's coming at this from the wrong angle. Also WHY would Dead Space on rails be popular on the Wii? It's a reasonably new survival horror IP that debuted on a separate console, and was popular but not a runaway success by any means (was it?)!
Everyone playing MW2, Halo, Uncharted 2, Borderlands, FFXIII, Mass Effect, GTAIV, (Insert system selling AAA title here), even the likes of LittleBigPlanet it's all about beautiful environments, sexy/handsome/gritty well textured characters, great AI, good networking or building your own stuff and basically just doing things that it's either hard to do/impossible, or just isn't done in the Wii equivalents, which are basically the same price also, not like that matters.
Most people who are into said 'mature' gaming will have a PC, PS3 or 360 or 2 of them or all three. Many of these gamers will, maybe, have a Wii too for games like NSMBW, Super Mario Galaxy, NMH, Metroid 3, or Resi 4 or um? (Help me out here...). (I know I know 2010 looks pretty sweet for Wii though, at least imo)
Essentially. Nobodys got a Wii to play many games bar Nintendo games because they don't want to be:
1) Looking at something with relatively crappy graphics
2) Playing with gimmicky motion controls attached
3) taken away from the active online community they're used to on PC, PS3 or 360 because Wii's online community integration is a bit shit.
4) Playing a relatively sub-par game
I love Nintendo, a lot, but for my purposes it would be better if they were just game developers like Sega is now. They'd keep making handhelds though of course.
I gave my nephew a Wii when he was 12 or so, with RE4 and Galaxy. He got tired of it within a year and now has a 360. No teens I know of really care about the Wii over here at least. Can't blame them. In fact, it seems like it's mostly the vocal online community that cares about the typical M rated Wii games. Which usually tends to not reflect the reality of the consumer base at all.
I still need to play Dead Space Extraction, RE: Darkside Chronicles and NSMB Wii, but to be honest I'd rather play something that doesn't look like crap.
I don't know why so many people are taking these quotes so seriously. Its just one guy that works for Sega talking openly, and candidly on a podcast that was taped weeks ago. He's just a producer at a Studio that's making Iron Man 2, so its not like he speaks for the whole company of Sega. Plus when you listen to the podcast he was even joking around, and laughing when he said some of these things, so people are taking what he said out of context.
Its nothing that hasn't been said before and other people will probably say it all again this year, but M rated games for the Wii still continue to come out. Just like No More Heroes 2 is coming out at the end of the month, but he is somewhat right. More people need to start buying these games, or eventually 3rd Party's will just give up on M rated games on the Wii altogether!
I don't know why so many people are taking these quotes so seriously. Its just one guy that works for Sega talking openly, and candidly on a podcast that was taped weeks ago. He's just a producer at a Studio that's making Iron Man 2, so its not like he speaks for the whole company of Sega. Plus when you listen to the podcast he was even joking around, and laughing when he said some of these things, so people are taking what he said out of context.
Its nothing that hasn't been said before and other people will probably say it all again this year, but M rated games for the Wii still continue to come out. Just like No More Heroes 2 is coming out at the end of the month, but he is somewhat right. More people need to start buying these games, or eventually 3rd Party's will just give up on M rated games on the Wii altogether!
The Conduit was just OK. Promising, VERY solid control scheme, but otherwise just OK. They had good marketing support, but ultimately, the game didn't meet the level of hype.
Dead Space Extraction didn't get all that much marketing support, did it?
Its disappointing to hear this from a SEGA guy now, because it seemed previously that they were happy with the results, even if they weren't unquestionable success numbers.
Aaaah well. So long as they don't move forward confusing "Mature" with "Competently and evocatively designed", I think I'll still be a content Wii owner and Sega fan.
Ah. That explains his tone: both the jocular and sort of amatuerish bounce from the quotes. And why he's hanging out on the 1UP podcast. Thanks for the detail note!
@ WarZombie- Bioshock and Left 4 Dead are to GOTY quality titles. I reviewed MadWorld, House of the Dead:Overkill, and The Conduit, and I'll tell you, none of them are GOTY material, which is part of my point.
Actually, I really liked MadWorld, but that's mostly because I love the art style and genre. Though I gave the game an 8.5, I was happy that Anthony was there to give the opposing viewpoint. His opinion on the game was totally valid, though I didn't really share it.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, the only Wii games I'd compare Bioshock and Left 4 Dead to are Bioshock and Left 4 Dead, which I can't do, because they are not on the Wii. And that's the real problem with the whole "M rated games don't sell on the Wii" argument; no M rated game has ever been released on the Wii at the same time it was released on the PS3/360. The Wii eventually got Modern Warfare, but it still doesn't have GTA:IV, Modern Warefare 2, Left 4 Dead 1 & 2, the list goes on. Until it does, we can't fairly say either way how AAA quality, M rated games sell on the Wii.
The closest we have to a fair comparison in The Force Unleashed, which is T rated, but appeals to the M rated crowd (if there is such a thing). Last I check, The Force Unleashed on the Wii sold less than the 360 version, but just as much as the PS3 version. I think it was something like 1.5 million.
If that's any indication, then all 3rd parties need to do to get their M rated games to sell on the Wii is release them at the same time as the PS3/360 versions. They still wont sell at a same game to install base ratio as on the PS3 or 360, but they'll still make plenty of money.
I hate to be the guy ranting about this but I will. Want to blame someone? Don't blame the publisher who has this opinion, BLAME THE F'ING GAMERS who waited for these games to hit clearance racks before buying. I'll admit I'm part of this camp buy I've ranted on Wii $50 game value proposition before.
Follow that link and rant about how I'm a fanboy cunt. But I will say this. When middle of the road efforts on PS3/360/PC can get middle of the road returns across the three platforms, there is a benefit to that aspect. But.. speaking as a professional 3D artist, there is an art to polygonal reduction and the Wii, with it's fraction of texture space and limited CPU speed, doesn't exactly make Wii ports of major titles possible in the slightest.
But hey, that was by DESIGN. Nintendo wanted a console that, unlike the PSP, wouldn't become a port haven for a quick buck. They just didn't anticipate the port haven techniques to come from shovelware PC and PS2 games. This is also why a unique Wii experience is usually promised. Don't bitch when these same limitations give you Little King's Story, No More Heroes, Silent Hill, and Madworld as defacto console exclusives. You can have your cake and eat it too. You just can't have everyone's cake and you act like a spoiled child when you try.
oh john did you just compare madworld, house of the dead overkill, deadspace extraction and the conduit to those games
with the exception of the conduit, all those games are fairly high quality wii titles, its completely absurd to compare em to stupid shit like Afro Samurai, Eat Lead and... a 4 year old ps2 game?
to be honest i always thought the wii is simply aimed towards a different audience, i mean the difference in sales between games like EA Sports Active and Deadspace Extraction (or nearly any other "hardcore" wii game for the matter) is way too big to consider it just a "possibility", atleast in my book, just look at the sales, the commercials, the people you see at stores buying wiis and wii games
for me it is clear the wii is meant to casual players, does this means the wii cant have hardcore games? no, it can, however devs must adjust their expectations, hardcore wii games wont sell as much as hardcore xbox360/ps3 games
i mean just look at call of duty reflex and modern warfare 2, mw2 sold more on its first hour than reflex on these 2 months, sure it was a 2 years old, inferior port but its not like wii only owners had any better, 1 modern warfare is better than no modern warfare
@WarZombie
"When the very publisher of these titles is blaming the hardware, you know there has to be something wrong. They gave it a try, and it didn't work. No matter what figures you toss out, they aren't at the level that mature games on the other platforms are. "
Have you taken the time to consider WHY those M-rated games failed?
Just because a publisher blames the hardware does NOT mean the publisher is right because publishers are often run by idiots. The ONLY real handicap that the Wii has is that it's graphics are not as good as other consoles. Thing of it is though, most of those games have more problems than just the graphics. Hell for instance two of those games are F*cking Rail shooters! when was the last time you saw a rail shooter outside of an arcade; last one i recall was in the days of the sega saturn. frankly i don't recall there being much of a demand for rail shooters. Do you really think a Rail shooter version of dead space is gonna be as good as dead space itself? of course not! Putting graphics aside, how many of those M-rated Wii games can you say are on the level of M-rated games on other consoles? I mean take a look at Resident evil 4? despite being a port (and thus owned by many who already got it) the game did fairly well; that's because unlike most of sega's wii crap, the game is actually GOOD.
In short, Is their a mature demographic there on the wii that will buy M-rated games? i'm not sure, but the sales of Sega's M-rated games do not prove much because sega's games SUCK! Sega's got to make some actual GOOD games before they can claim that "m-rated games don't sell well on the wii" ... though we do have to keep in mind that sometimes even good games fail due to other reasons such as poor marketing and what-not (that's how cult favorites are created)
critizing a game just becuz its on a different genre is just a retarded as critizing it for its graphics
the game is good, wii owners hyped Deadspace Extraction, they hyped House of the Dead Overkill before it and Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles after it
in fact DSE is better than those games
also Madworld, DSE and House of the Dead are not bad games, hell even if we pick games with really high metascores like little king's story the result is still the same, the sales are really poor
Its the same thing every generation. Super awesome mature videogame players hate on the current nintendo system. IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. Then the next gen will show up, and everyone will be stroking the peen of the wii. happened to the gamecube when the wii came out, happened to the 64 when the cube came out, etc.
Also, yes, you can blame the marketing. A lot of people watch tv. I haven't seen a single commercial for DSE, Madword, or Overkill, and I have the tv on at my house mostly all day. Take some money, and advertise when and where people watch. Its not a difficult concept. You know how many times I've seen a Bayonetta Commercial? Almost every commercial break for a week on adult swim and comedy central.
Face it, don't blame the wii for things you apparently didn't want to sell in the first place.
MadWorld is an excellent game. I showed it to some of my friends and they said that they had to have it. Unfortunately they all only have 360s. They refused to believe that it was a Wii exclusive.
Not sure why they'd be surprised with low sales on these games. Madworld is shallow and doesn't really appeal to the people Sega was trying to target with it. Those people also generally don't own Wiis. The Conduit would have done great in 1997, but in 2009 it's got a more dated design than Halo.
The only good game of the three is House of the Dead and really who's bought lightgun games at all in the last 10 years? Just can't make that sale in 2009, even if the game is ridiculous and awesome. Especially on hardware that does a pretty damned poor job of substituting for a real lightgun.
It's sad and pathetic like when Sega tries to do a Sonic game.
SEGA should put out a new shining Soul game for the Wii with 4-player co-op (local and online) I beat with some advertising it could sell well. That or release a new shining Soul 3 for the DS or any platform really. or shenmue 3 or something, another option would be to up port some of the Dreamcast gems. oh what am I saying SEGA would probably just slap half-baked motion controls and have run worse and look like the Dreamcast originals.
I can't speak for everyone but I've never purchased a Nintendo system in the hopes of playing a game that has an M rating. By that I mean, I bought a PS3 so I could play games like GoW and MGS and the like. My 360 games are mostly all M rated games as well and I bought it to play Mass Effect and Bishock. If I was to buy a Wii it would be for Mario Galaxy and Metroid and Zelda. I wouldn't even consider its M rated catalog a determining factor.
I really don't get your point about different shows being on different networks. I mean you can't really say Arrested Development wouldn't have done better on a network that advertised it properly. In the same context you can't really say an M rated Wii game wouldn't have done better on another system.
For the type of games they're talking about, I'd side with Sega on this one.
Sure, maybe there are a tiny amount of gamers out there into the more violent stuff that have Nintendo's new console, but Wii really is the pre-school gamer set as a whole, judging by what sells best.
Well, not pre-school. But the more...gentle type of people who probably think games like Silent Hill are too scary to play with the lights out.
Sega saying not enough of an audience for the types of games they went with for that console...yeah, they're probably right.
I would have been into all those games that bombed, but I don't play Wii. I'm a 360 and PS3 kind of guy. I'm betting the kind of people into those type of games are the same, hanging over on the other consoles. It's a safer assumption.
I don't care what the rating on my game is, I just want a good game. If Sega stops making Mature games, I couldn't give a rat's behind, I just want them to keep making GOOD games.
I'm also getting tired of hearing people say that the Wii has shit graphics. Just because graphics aren't in HD doesn't mean they are shit.
The problem with MadWorld was that it was too damn short, and as HPV said, too shallow. People were talking about it for roughly a week or two, then everybody beat it already and there wasn't much left to discuss. There's only so many ways to kill somebody, and only so many quotes from Greg Proops and John Dimaggio. The game ends up recycling heavily in both violence and comedy, so by the time you've beaten the final boss, everything's been said and done about 3 or 4 times now.
It doesn't help that hard mode is barely worth the trouble. No rewards, and it doesn't feel too different from the main game.
When the discussion fizzles, exposure to the game goes down. And when you do see it later at Best Buy or Gamestop, you're less likely to think "hey, I heard that's a good game, I should pick it up."
I hate the fact that people can't see all the good games Wii has because they don't have that little "M" in front of the box, or that most people ignore the good games because they don't have flashy graphics or intense violence or whatever. Also the people that don't buy the good games and complain because it keeps getting shovelware. /end rant.
Madworld was a very good stylistically unique beat em up, and HOTD was a fun riot, a grindhouse esque haunted house on the disc. Extraction was one of the game of the year contenders for me which is ironic as it's the game no one plays.
Sega is dead right here. Mature rated games tend to fail on wii, unless they have a huge franchise behind them that even the most casual gamers would know.
Explain to your average wii owner that mad world is in black and white and that house of the dead is a tongue in cheek gorefest, watch their tiny brains switch off as they go to find a safe franchise they know.
I'd be interested to see how darkside chronicals did. But in conclusion, sega are right, and it's not the fault of the critically acclaimed games.
"It’s been slow burn. That’s the other thing you find out about the Wii. It’s not necessarily first 3 weeks like most titles. And DS. It’s a longer burn, actually."
Madworld: 400k sold
No More Heroes: 470k sold
House of the Dead: Overkill: 520k sold.
The Conduit: 360k sold.
Chinatown Wars DS: 900k sold.
These are great sales numbers, especially for the first two games which were both niche by nature. This guy even mentions that they're going to hit their quotas, but he seems to be bitching about the fact that it takes a long time to sell games, which is kind of a bizarre thing to complain about.
The games sold. There's no reason to be sad. Given time, Dead Space will probably sell also. It would be interesting to see why it's a slow burn on Wii and DS, but we're arguing about handing out blame to something that isn't even happening.
I gotta say, I sort of agree with the man. HOD Overkill and Madworld are both games that deserve better than what they did, and would have done better on PS3 or 360.
the idea of blaming the wii for poor sales of adult games will be "laughably silly" when wiifit and assorted shovelware doesn't outsell these supposedly good games by large margins.
The key phrase, which shows they either get it or they don't get it, is "great Wii games." You never hear anyone say, "This is a great PS3 game," implying that it is somehow worse because of the console. Nope.
The problem with all these games (never played Dead Space, played or watched the Sega ones) is that...they're not great. The Conduit would have been mindblowing in 2002/2003 but now is more on line with Prey than Halo. House of the Dead is a rail shooter and therefore has a very, very limited market, due to the stigma attached to that. Madworld (which I played the most of them), it's interesting the AD comparison was in the first line, because it was lowest common denominator humor, coupled with a color scheme that was sickening, confusing, or a cop out, and the gameplay, again, would have been exciting in 2003.
Basically, I would still say there's a market for *mature* content on the Wii; the problem is that developers seem to think "mature content on the Wii" allows them to release crappy games to immediate sales. Most people with the Wii have another console. We aren't pressed for mature titles, but if one came along that really used the Wii well, and not as a crutch, we'd buy it in droves.
Wow, those numbers really do make Sega look stupid. I can tell you that I own those Sega games (excluding the Conduit) and I loved them. It was like a breath of fresh air for the Wii, using it's unique abilities to the best that they could.
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Contest:
3:00 AM on 01.04.2010
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-basically every game developer and publisher out there says that
Most mature rated titles on wii do fail, but there are reasons for that.
The developers and publishers will say "Well the wii has no mature market"
A little message to those guys, shut up all ready.
Yes the Wiis mature audience is not as big as that of 360 and PS3 audience, but that isn't the problem.
A publisher just compares sales to a game with a mature rating.
Simply because a game is rated M does NOT mean that it is a good game and should sell well.
Perhaps the CONTENT of the game is what makes us not buy a game.
MW Reflex, didnt buy that simply because of wii speak. YOu can tell me I'm stupid for it. But I'm not the one buying and supporting these developers who make these half ass games.
Dead Space extraction, a F*cking RAIL SHOOTER! Damn, I'm tired of those game...DSE might not of sold well because it was:
-a rail shooter
-had NO replay value,
-had no online (wouldnt it of been cool to play co-op mode with a friend across the world, maybe even talk to him with with speak? but no, apparently the mature rating it what thats about.)
Multiplayer, what the hell happened? Some games don't even have multiplayer, some games don't have online, some games don't have split screen...I mean WTF is that?
-maybe if more games had multiplayer, GOOD multiplayer, it would attract it more customers. Some people buy games JUST for multiplayer.
-Do NOT put in three modes "Free for all, Team Death Match, CTF" that is sh*t my friend.
-Ever seen HALO?! CALL OF DUTY?! I forget how many modes are in that game...
-The Conduit is the ONLY Wii game to attempt at more modes, I was impressed, but I bit disappointed to be honest. I was expecting more ORIGINAL modes, more UNIQUE modes.
Games like Mad World I have heard were just amazing. But I am not a fan of gore, so IF they just put in a FILTER I would of bought it! IF THEY DID! One little thing, and they could of added a sale. ONE little thing. Hell make it so I can change it blue or something, and I would of bought it.
WAW wii had a filter, and that game is a definition of failed sh*t.
No more heroes....god....WTF is that?! Don't flame me or anything, but that game seems to have been created by a 7 year old who just learned how to cuss, what masturbating is, and that girls were hot.
That game is just annoying, "HEY DICK F*CK SH*T!! I WILLZ WANK MY SWORD AND KILL YOU....DICK F*CK"
I want to shoot myself at that game.
That is again, MY opinion of that game. So don't flame me.
Advertising is usually sh*t, so publishers don't always do what they need to do to help boost sales. That is a problem.
So these are the main problems in a shorter way:
-Mature rating does NOT mean its a good game
-CONTENT of a game is what matters, not the damn rating
-Does the game have MULTIPLAYER?! If it does, is it GOOD? Original? Online AND offline?
-The genre can turn us off (rail shooter for example...)
-Remember to make a game MATURE, not IM- MATURE like No more heroes...
-Gore does NOT make a game good (add a filter, is that such a problem)
-ADVERTISE THE GAME RIGHT
So before people say " Wii has no mature audience"
Make the damn game right, and then see how it does.
Let's not kid ourselves here, the man has a great point. The younger people start playing mature, deep games on the Xbox, PS3 and (haha) PC, the less likely they will want the Wii equivalent, which is seen as kiddy. It is seen as kiddy by young teens who want to be cool, it is seen as kiddy by older gamers who want to feel like they've moved past it, and it is seen as kiddy by grumpy PC gamers like me who didn't grow up playing Mario and Zelda and think they are kiddy because they're not very deep or interesting to someone who played Baldur's Gate at 14 years old.
Are all Wii games kiddy? Of course not. Even if most games are kiddy and casual does that mean "hardcore" gamers can't enjoy them? Of course not, even I play Peggle and Bejewled. It's an image problem. The Wii has an image problem with that demographic.
My platform has the same thing, the PC has an image problem that makes people think it costs $5,000 to use and required constant upgrades and tweaks and has no games. All this is false, but the image problem remains, perpetuated by a gaming media largely raised on Mario and not Guybrush Threepwood.
Image problems are the bane of good products with little mainstream appeal.
"So before people say " Wii has no mature audience"
Make the damn game right, and then see how it does."
The problem is with the Wii you can only make a Wii game. With the Xbox you can make an Xbox, PS3 and PC game all at once with little extra expense. This means Wii games need to make 3 times the profit as other platforms to make sense for a publisher. Why do you think EA went with Dead Space for a Wii spin-off? So they could reuse assets.
Until the Wii mature demographic proves it exists and buys games, lots of games to match the profitability of the other three platforms at once, games without Resident Evil in the title, no publisher is going to put the effort into a Wii game you are asking for.
hahaha, well you say "no publisher is going to put the effort into a Wii game you are asking for."
Theres a problem! They won't put in the content we are asking for!!! Now would we buy a game that doesn't have the content we are asking for?
NO
I think there's a paperweight on your enter key
Games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age and the upcoming heavy rain appeal to me. The Wii doesn't really have anything like that. True, Shattered Memories looks interesting, but aside from that.... what else is there? I'm looking at the Gamespot list of Wii games that have come out recently and aside from Shattered Memories I'm not seeing anything good. At all.
Poor little guy... he´s name is out there right now.
We need violence!
We need sex!
We need sexy violence!
Or violent sex.
-Bruce Lee
I see the logic in a tiny portion of this guys argument, on second thoughts no I don't. He's coming at this from the wrong angle. Also WHY would Dead Space on rails be popular on the Wii? It's a reasonably new survival horror IP that debuted on a separate console, and was popular but not a runaway success by any means (was it?)!
Everyone playing MW2, Halo, Uncharted 2, Borderlands, FFXIII, Mass Effect, GTAIV, (Insert system selling AAA title here), even the likes of LittleBigPlanet it's all about beautiful environments, sexy/handsome/gritty well textured characters, great AI, good networking or building your own stuff and basically just doing things that it's either hard to do/impossible, or just isn't done in the Wii equivalents, which are basically the same price also, not like that matters.
Most people who are into said 'mature' gaming will have a PC, PS3 or 360 or 2 of them or all three. Many of these gamers will, maybe, have a Wii too for games like NSMBW, Super Mario Galaxy, NMH, Metroid 3, or Resi 4 or um? (Help me out here...). (I know I know 2010 looks pretty sweet for Wii though, at least imo)
Essentially. Nobodys got a Wii to play many games bar Nintendo games because they don't want to be:
1) Looking at something with relatively crappy graphics
2) Playing with gimmicky motion controls attached
3) taken away from the active online community they're used to on PC, PS3 or 360 because Wii's online community integration is a bit shit.
4) Playing a relatively sub-par game
I love Nintendo, a lot, but for my purposes it would be better if they were just game developers like Sega is now. They'd keep making handhelds though of course.
I gave my nephew a Wii when he was 12 or so, with RE4 and Galaxy. He got tired of it within a year and now has a 360. No teens I know of really care about the Wii over here at least. Can't blame them. In fact, it seems like it's mostly the vocal online community that cares about the typical M rated Wii games. Which usually tends to not reflect the reality of the consumer base at all.
I still need to play Dead Space Extraction, RE: Darkside Chronicles and NSMB Wii, but to be honest I'd rather play something that doesn't look like crap.
"Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
Very frustrating to listen to.
Its nothing that hasn't been said before and other people will probably say it all again this year, but M rated games for the Wii still continue to come out. Just like No More Heroes 2 is coming out at the end of the month, but he is somewhat right. More people need to start buying these games, or eventually 3rd Party's will just give up on M rated games on the Wii altogether!
Its nothing that hasn't been said before and other people will probably say it all again this year, but M rated games for the Wii still continue to come out. Just like No More Heroes 2 is coming out at the end of the month, but he is somewhat right. More people need to start buying these games, or eventually 3rd Party's will just give up on M rated games on the Wii altogether!
Dead Space Extraction didn't get all that much marketing support, did it?
Its disappointing to hear this from a SEGA guy now, because it seemed previously that they were happy with the results, even if they weren't unquestionable success numbers.
Aaaah well. So long as they don't move forward confusing "Mature" with "Competently and evocatively designed", I think I'll still be a content Wii owner and Sega fan.
Ah. That explains his tone: both the jocular and sort of amatuerish bounce from the quotes. And why he's hanging out on the 1UP podcast. Thanks for the detail note!
Actually, I really liked MadWorld, but that's mostly because I love the art style and genre. Though I gave the game an 8.5, I was happy that Anthony was there to give the opposing viewpoint. His opinion on the game was totally valid, though I didn't really share it.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, the only Wii games I'd compare Bioshock and Left 4 Dead to are Bioshock and Left 4 Dead, which I can't do, because they are not on the Wii. And that's the real problem with the whole "M rated games don't sell on the Wii" argument; no M rated game has ever been released on the Wii at the same time it was released on the PS3/360. The Wii eventually got Modern Warfare, but it still doesn't have GTA:IV, Modern Warefare 2, Left 4 Dead 1 & 2, the list goes on. Until it does, we can't fairly say either way how AAA quality, M rated games sell on the Wii.
The closest we have to a fair comparison in The Force Unleashed, which is T rated, but appeals to the M rated crowd (if there is such a thing). Last I check, The Force Unleashed on the Wii sold less than the 360 version, but just as much as the PS3 version. I think it was something like 1.5 million.
If that's any indication, then all 3rd parties need to do to get their M rated games to sell on the Wii is release them at the same time as the PS3/360 versions. They still wont sell at a same game to install base ratio as on the PS3 or 360, but they'll still make plenty of money.
*runs to a corner and cries*
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/sheppy/the-hard-sell-of-wii-games-148542.phtml
Follow that link and rant about how I'm a fanboy cunt. But I will say this. When middle of the road efforts on PS3/360/PC can get middle of the road returns across the three platforms, there is a benefit to that aspect. But.. speaking as a professional 3D artist, there is an art to polygonal reduction and the Wii, with it's fraction of texture space and limited CPU speed, doesn't exactly make Wii ports of major titles possible in the slightest.
But hey, that was by DESIGN. Nintendo wanted a console that, unlike the PSP, wouldn't become a port haven for a quick buck. They just didn't anticipate the port haven techniques to come from shovelware PC and PS2 games. This is also why a unique Wii experience is usually promised. Don't bitch when these same limitations give you Little King's Story, No More Heroes, Silent Hill, and Madworld as defacto console exclusives. You can have your cake and eat it too. You just can't have everyone's cake and you act like a spoiled child when you try.
oh john did you just compare madworld, house of the dead overkill, deadspace extraction and the conduit to those games
with the exception of the conduit, all those games are fairly high quality wii titles, its completely absurd to compare em to stupid shit like Afro Samurai, Eat Lead and... a 4 year old ps2 game?
to be honest i always thought the wii is simply aimed towards a different audience, i mean the difference in sales between games like EA Sports Active and Deadspace Extraction (or nearly any other "hardcore" wii game for the matter) is way too big to consider it just a "possibility", atleast in my book, just look at the sales, the commercials, the people you see at stores buying wiis and wii games
for me it is clear the wii is meant to casual players, does this means the wii cant have hardcore games? no, it can, however devs must adjust their expectations, hardcore wii games wont sell as much as hardcore xbox360/ps3 games
i mean just look at call of duty reflex and modern warfare 2, mw2 sold more on its first hour than reflex on these 2 months, sure it was a 2 years old, inferior port but its not like wii only owners had any better, 1 modern warfare is better than no modern warfare
case in point both valkyria chronicles and demon's souls sold more than most wii hardcore games on a platform with a much smaller install base
"When the very publisher of these titles is blaming the hardware, you know there has to be something wrong. They gave it a try, and it didn't work. No matter what figures you toss out, they aren't at the level that mature games on the other platforms are. "
Have you taken the time to consider WHY those M-rated games failed?
Just because a publisher blames the hardware does NOT mean the publisher is right because publishers are often run by idiots. The ONLY real handicap that the Wii has is that it's graphics are not as good as other consoles. Thing of it is though, most of those games have more problems than just the graphics. Hell for instance two of those games are F*cking Rail shooters! when was the last time you saw a rail shooter outside of an arcade; last one i recall was in the days of the sega saturn. frankly i don't recall there being much of a demand for rail shooters. Do you really think a Rail shooter version of dead space is gonna be as good as dead space itself? of course not! Putting graphics aside, how many of those M-rated Wii games can you say are on the level of M-rated games on other consoles? I mean take a look at Resident evil 4? despite being a port (and thus owned by many who already got it) the game did fairly well; that's because unlike most of sega's wii crap, the game is actually GOOD.
In short, Is their a mature demographic there on the wii that will buy M-rated games? i'm not sure, but the sales of Sega's M-rated games do not prove much because sega's games SUCK! Sega's got to make some actual GOOD games before they can claim that "m-rated games don't sell well on the wii" ... though we do have to keep in mind that sometimes even good games fail due to other reasons such as poor marketing and what-not (that's how cult favorites are created)
critizing a game just becuz its on a different genre is just a retarded as critizing it for its graphics
the game is good, wii owners hyped Deadspace Extraction, they hyped House of the Dead Overkill before it and Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles after it
in fact DSE is better than those games
also Madworld, DSE and House of the Dead are not bad games, hell even if we pick games with really high metascores like little king's story the result is still the same, the sales are really poor
Its the same thing every generation. Super awesome mature videogame players hate on the current nintendo system. IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. Then the next gen will show up, and everyone will be stroking the peen of the wii. happened to the gamecube when the wii came out, happened to the 64 when the cube came out, etc.
Also, yes, you can blame the marketing. A lot of people watch tv. I haven't seen a single commercial for DSE, Madword, or Overkill, and I have the tv on at my house mostly all day. Take some money, and advertise when and where people watch. Its not a difficult concept. You know how many times I've seen a Bayonetta Commercial? Almost every commercial break for a week on adult swim and comedy central.
Face it, don't blame the wii for things you apparently didn't want to sell in the first place.
The only good game of the three is House of the Dead and really who's bought lightgun games at all in the last 10 years? Just can't make that sale in 2009, even if the game is ridiculous and awesome. Especially on hardware that does a pretty damned poor job of substituting for a real lightgun.
It's sad and pathetic like when Sega tries to do a Sonic game.
I really don't get your point about different shows being on different networks. I mean you can't really say Arrested Development wouldn't have done better on a network that advertised it properly. In the same context you can't really say an M rated Wii game wouldn't have done better on another system.
Sure, maybe there are a tiny amount of gamers out there into the more violent stuff that have Nintendo's new console, but Wii really is the pre-school gamer set as a whole, judging by what sells best.
Well, not pre-school. But the more...gentle type of people who probably think games like Silent Hill are too scary to play with the lights out.
Sega saying not enough of an audience for the types of games they went with for that console...yeah, they're probably right.
I would have been into all those games that bombed, but I don't play Wii. I'm a 360 and PS3 kind of guy. I'm betting the kind of people into those type of games are the same, hanging over on the other consoles. It's a safer assumption.
I'm also getting tired of hearing people say that the Wii has shit graphics. Just because graphics aren't in HD doesn't mean they are shit.
Nice!
It doesn't help that hard mode is barely worth the trouble. No rewards, and it doesn't feel too different from the main game.
When the discussion fizzles, exposure to the game goes down. And when you do see it later at Best Buy or Gamestop, you're less likely to think "hey, I heard that's a good game, I should pick it up."
Madworld was a very good stylistically unique beat em up, and HOTD was a fun riot, a grindhouse esque haunted house on the disc. Extraction was one of the game of the year contenders for me which is ironic as it's the game no one plays.
Sega is dead right here. Mature rated games tend to fail on wii, unless they have a huge franchise behind them that even the most casual gamers would know.
Explain to your average wii owner that mad world is in black and white and that house of the dead is a tongue in cheek gorefest, watch their tiny brains switch off as they go to find a safe franchise they know.
I'd be interested to see how darkside chronicals did. But in conclusion, sega are right, and it's not the fault of the critically acclaimed games.
"It’s been slow burn. That’s the other thing you find out about the Wii. It’s not necessarily first 3 weeks like most titles. And DS. It’s a longer burn, actually."
Madworld: 400k sold
No More Heroes: 470k sold
House of the Dead: Overkill: 520k sold.
The Conduit: 360k sold.
Chinatown Wars DS: 900k sold.
These are great sales numbers, especially for the first two games which were both niche by nature. This guy even mentions that they're going to hit their quotas, but he seems to be bitching about the fact that it takes a long time to sell games, which is kind of a bizarre thing to complain about.
The games sold. There's no reason to be sad. Given time, Dead Space will probably sell also. It would be interesting to see why it's a slow burn on Wii and DS, but we're arguing about handing out blame to something that isn't even happening.
The problem with all these games (never played Dead Space, played or watched the Sega ones) is that...they're not great. The Conduit would have been mindblowing in 2002/2003 but now is more on line with Prey than Halo. House of the Dead is a rail shooter and therefore has a very, very limited market, due to the stigma attached to that. Madworld (which I played the most of them), it's interesting the AD comparison was in the first line, because it was lowest common denominator humor, coupled with a color scheme that was sickening, confusing, or a cop out, and the gameplay, again, would have been exciting in 2003.
Basically, I would still say there's a market for *mature* content on the Wii; the problem is that developers seem to think "mature content on the Wii" allows them to release crappy games to immediate sales. Most people with the Wii have another console. We aren't pressed for mature titles, but if one came along that really used the Wii well, and not as a crutch, we'd buy it in droves.
But every time somebody says Madworld is any less of a good time than a 360 game, I'm going to have to kill a Kojima.