Like most writers in this industry, I hang around NeoGAF while pretending that I don't. In doing so, I stumbled across a rather interesting thread detailing how Epic banned an Unreal Tournament III modder from its message board after he accused the company of stealing his creation, as seen (ridiculously briefly) in the Xbox 360 trailer:
I'm sure many of you already seen the new UT3 360 trailer, but what most of you don't know is that one of the maps shown there ( DM-ArcticShipment ) is actually a user created map done by a member that goes by EpicJon on the Epic Forums.
The map, while not being exactly the same, is a blatant rip off, it's a cargo boat, in the middle of the Artic ocean, with snow falling and with icebergs on the background. When EpicJon posted about his discontent in the Epic Forums he got banned and his thread deleted.
There is, of course, much discussion on the ethical and moral nature of Epic's supposed actions, but let's take a minute to look at this sensibly. Both maps are boats in the middle of the arctic, and they do share similarities -- however, boats in oceans are not exactly original game settings, and the same can certainly be said for snow and ice. It's not out of the question to consider that Epic was inspired by EpicJon's map, but by the same token, accusing the company of blatantly ripping him off isn't really founded, and simply not true (even if inspired, the maps are not carbon copies by a long shot).
Of course, where Epic screwed up is in silencing the accuser without the courtesy of explanation. Some would argue that Epic owes no such explanation, considering that the map similarities could just be coincidence, and the mod is a derivative of Epic's original game anyway, but in doing things the way Epic apparently did them, it just looks like a dick move and ensures that gamers are going to assume the worst, which is exactly what's happening.
We'll try and get some official word from Epic on the matter and hopefully clear up this silly business, but I know one thing -- you'll never be Valve if you make your modders feel alienated, Epic.
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Banning him on site probably wasn't their best option.
Uh, if they banned him, that pretty much means that they ripped him off
i think its kind of hypocritical to accuse a company of ripping of a mod created using their engine/game. hell i wouldn't care, i'd take it as a complement if it was me. but i don't agree with epic banning him, that's just bad business.
That's pretty lame. Epic should at least given him credit for inspiring the map design or something if it was, in fact, a 'rip-off'.
Erm, developers have been using player-made maps for years; this is common practice. A good deal of the level design we see today was inspired by creations from amateur designers who sent a mod in to the developer. Often times the same modders score a job out of it, other times they don't.
Either way, it is a great source of creative talent available to developers who would otherwise be restricted to the imagination of the same level designers for each game. The downside is that it might come off as a bit shady if the modder doesn't get any benefit himself. I'm not sure about this particular case, but the idea of a developer adapting mods as its own is not a new concept (most pertinent example: Valve).
Regardless of wether he is right or wrong, banning him was a stupid thing to do. I hope Epic gets kicked in the balls over this.
@ AMARU
/agree
My personal take is that it's not really a rip-off. Even if he inspired the idea, the boats are pretty different (there's a good comparison in that thread). That said, Epic didn't make it look good.
Meh. It was a stupid move to ban him outright, but I think the companies should have the right to take ideas from community members creating mods with the company's own engine. I mean, you don't see the original creator of Zombies/Infection in Halo 2 getting any recognition for what he did... Okay, bad example, maybe. That said, it would be nice if Epic would give him credit, if they did get it from him.
Pretty sure the Unreal SDK license agreement says Epic CAN totally gank your shit if they want. Sorry guy, better switch to Source!
If it was me, I'd be honored to have my map be an inspiration to Epic. That would be something I'd get excited about, not angry about. Also, the ships look pretty different in aesthetics (from the little bit we've seen in the trailer...).
Granted, banning the guy outright may not have been the right way to go about doing things, but complaining was not the best thing for mister EpicJon to do either. He could have at least contacted Epic through email or something to try and get a response from them.
If they were Valve, they would offer him a job. Like they did with a little known game called Half-Life that was modded into something called Counterstrike.
At least it's free modder content you 360 boys don't have to pay for.
Knowing nothing about what actually happened, I wonder if when he posted his "discontent" he did it in a mature, respectful way, or if he went on a profanity filled tirade that would have warranted a banning? I have a hard time believing that he posted something like "Hey guys, it looks like you copied my map. What's up with that?" and was immediately banned.
Knowing nothing about what actually happened, I wonder if when he posted his "discontent" he did it in a mature, respectful way, or if he went on a profanity filled tirade that would have warranted a banning? I have a hard time believing that he posted something like "Hey guys, it looks like you copied my map. What's up with that?" and was immediately banned.
I didn't read the article to be honest just the title. Any person who mods should read the agreement they are handed when they get the tools to mod. Any company that allows you to mod can take your mods at any time and incorporate them. Nearly all of World Of Warcrafts GUI and minor patches like flight path linking are all taken from user mods.
Your in for a treat if they recognize you in anyway what so ever. Valve will only pay you pennies on the dollar take your shit and leave you in the dirt. CS/TF are examples.
Thats the way it is Mods are free not only for the players but for the company to exploit. Their only redeeming factor is in the hope that the company will buy into them somehow.
If I was a company and I was "inspired" by a user created mod in the making of my own "official" mod, I would have given the guy something, like a one of a kind something for in game, or a free game from our current roster, or some swag.
Companies have a way of wasting a whole lot of money for things that won't make any difference in how many people buy their product (Limited Edition GTA IV Xbox 360 Console, even though I wish I had one. LOL).
Whether or not the company is legally right, the right thing to do, to foster goodwill and community, is to award those within the community for their work, even in small ways. A little love goes a looooooooonnnnnngggg way.
I'm with Epic on this.
Epic fail! puns eff-tee-dub!
I haven't seen both maps side by side to see if they are similar... but if it is some 13 year old kid that made the map, shouldn't he feel honored that epic used it? I think epic should give him a little recognition though.
Ok, just checked up on the UnrealEd EULA. Epic owns the commercial rights to anything you create with their SDK for their game- you cannot create a commercial product and charge money for it unless you purchase a license for the Unreal Engine. However, you the creator own the copyright and IP of the creative aspect of your creation- Epic cannot take what you've made and use it commercially without paying you.
Of course, in this case Epic did NOT take the map and distribute it with UT3 but instead was inspired by the setting and concept and created an entirely new map based on it, which is A-ok, if morally questionable and a dick move on Epic's part, especially once they banned him and deleted the thread when he spoke up.
someone got r4p3d is all i have to say. don't know who, but it happened
They can't just tell him it wasn't a copy, and get over it?
I'm pretty sure Splinter Cell:DA has a map that takes places on a tanker in the arctic too.
CoD4 has a ship-on-the-ocean map also. At this point, I'd call the "fighting on a ship" level a cliche, not an original concept.
I'll reserve judgement on the forum banning until I know how he behaved and what was said.
The thread's back up and he's unbanned, this was really fucking stupid of Epic, if I could think of one thing to turn off users from my products, it'd be banning people that raise questions about it.
[img]http//www.streetmonkey.tv/temp/pwned.gif[/img]
wtf, this is worth it ...honest
Someone should fix the BBCode hint (in the green add comment box) there is a ":" missing in the example box for inserting an image.
The original thread has been restored.
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=610397
The guy did ask in a courteous manner. I don't think he or anyone is asking for any money. Just you know, a little recognition "Thanks for making a cool map, we made a similar one in response to it's popularity"
true, due to their banning I too think it was in fact a blatant rip-off and they're just trying to cover it up a bit...
if they would have pointed out why it was NOT a rip-off, or even said that it was in fact a homage to his map, things would've turned out a lot better, they would've prolly gotten of with sending the guy a signed copy of UT3 or something like that :-)
Excuse my off-topic, but honestly people. Typing the image and close image brackets and then pasting the entire source of the image won't kill anyone. It's so amazingly easy to do it right when putting an image in here.