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@MrXBob
Aww. Ok,I was hoping for a link you read on MS having low yield with next gen chips that you may have read. Apologies.
Aww. Ok,I was hoping for a link you read on MS having low yield with next gen chips that you may have read. Apologies.
@TheDancingMad @TheEvil1
My brother is on his 3rd PS3 and has had his 360 since launch. He almost exclusively uses the PS3 for fighting games or Blu-Ray. He plays CoD almost constantly on the 360. I also had a launch 360 that was fine until I wanted a Hardrive upgrade and just got the Slim because of a trade in deal at Gamestop.
That said, there are always outliers and any kind of personal basis ends up being complete bullshit. I have a close circle of friends, all with close to launch 360s and outside of them sounding like harriers when you turn them on they work fine and have never red ringed. The only issue with one of them is the disc tray won't open if there's no game in it.
TL;DR version: Your comments prove nothing.
My brother is on his 3rd PS3 and has had his 360 since launch. He almost exclusively uses the PS3 for fighting games or Blu-Ray. He plays CoD almost constantly on the 360. I also had a launch 360 that was fine until I wanted a Hardrive upgrade and just got the Slim because of a trade in deal at Gamestop.
That said, there are always outliers and any kind of personal basis ends up being complete bullshit. I have a close circle of friends, all with close to launch 360s and outside of them sounding like harriers when you turn them on they work fine and have never red ringed. The only issue with one of them is the disc tray won't open if there's no game in it.
TL;DR version: Your comments prove nothing.
@ChronicusPr1me No worries! By the way is there a way to see replies rather than refreshing the page and scrolling through the whole list of comments?
Have IBM build the processor. Problem solved. It will be excellent quality. They have the fabs for it. But Microsoft are cheapskates.
@Konnery
pffff, thanks for spoiling my jimbo fun
i own no products of either companies except for windows 7 (required)
i just buy a ninty console and upgrade my pc and i'm set
pffff, thanks for spoiling my jimbo fun
i own no products of either companies except for windows 7 (required)
i just buy a ninty console and upgrade my pc and i'm set
@indigit4l I probably should have said "shitty online gaming experience" instead of just "software". Too many system updates that take way too long, archaic trophy synching, too difficult to connect with friends and the sheer inanity of Home. It's like Sony isn't serious about online gaming at all.
Microsoft, on the other hand, can't seem to build any hardware more complicated than a mouse.
Microsoft, on the other hand, can't seem to build any hardware more complicated than a mouse.
A quick word of advice: If your source is SemiAccurate turn away. Charlie, the guy who created the site, used to work for Inquirer (the online tech-based gossip trash site) and was fired because he was too biased and untruthful for them. He has been right about some things but even when he is right he blows things way out of proportion.
They'll fix it before launch. Whether it has a million other problems at launch is up to Microsoft.
Ben
vidyawithben.blogspot.com
Ben
vidyawithben.blogspot.com
Intel and AMD build all new factories to try to increase the yield on working silicon in their processors. This is pretty much the same thing. Where they were getting them from used a technique which did not yield the amount of usable cpu's they wanted per wafer. That has nothing to do with the quality of the CPU's and instead is just the quality of the fabrication process. All the CPU's are tested to ensure they work properly and MS, much like any other company, wants to get more out of each wafer to keep costs down. And that's assuming this rumor is even true.
Really people, this is a non-issue.
Really people, this is a non-issue.
"According to the latest gossip, Microsoft started as it meant to go on when it made the Xbox 360 out of bits of cardboard and blu-tack." = Use English much?
Okay, here's my question for you techies: how come these console developers don't just use Intel or AMD processors, even modified ones?
@MrXBob: "The *rumour* is that there is a low yield when manufacturing. That means that out of all the CPU's that are being built, some are not coming out at the high quality that is expected.
This is a common issue whenever something new is being produced - not just consoles, not just processors. Everything. "
Yes, by itself it's nothing unusual, however in the context of MS general SNAFU MO and tendency to sell halfbaked hardware this gen, it makes those with a little common sense quite aware, just saying.
This is a common issue whenever something new is being produced - not just consoles, not just processors. Everything. "
Yes, by itself it's nothing unusual, however in the context of MS general SNAFU MO and tendency to sell halfbaked hardware this gen, it makes those with a little common sense quite aware, just saying.
I can honestly say I don't think I will buy a first generation machine MS build. I had nothing but problems with the machine (XBOX 360) after 8 months of use, RROD, faulty disc tray, RROD and so on. Even with the slim it is not a smooth experience, but way better than the original XBOX 360. So I may just skip this next one they do, although I do admit I will miss what they offer. Live is good, but all it takes is someone like Sony to just simply cut and paste that idea without the cost.
Upcoming gen I am leaning towards only having handheld consoles, and a good gaming PC for everything else.
Good to know.
Any small glimmer of notion that I'd be buying the new Xbox just went out the window. I fell for this once, not doing it again.
IF someone would have warned me that the 360 was built of toilet paper before I went through three of them, despite taking utmost care of them, I'd have never bought those either.
Any small glimmer of notion that I'd be buying the new Xbox just went out the window. I fell for this once, not doing it again.
IF someone would have warned me that the 360 was built of toilet paper before I went through three of them, despite taking utmost care of them, I'd have never bought those either.
The writers and readers of this site have an understanding of tech hardware abstracted far and away from reality. MrXBob is the only one who seems to have any grasp of the meaning of the source article. Everyone else is just here for the MS/Sony fanboy flaming, hosted by circus ringmaster Jim Sterling.
Jim, the processor you improperly characterize as being "poorly made" is not even in production yet. You may better understand it as pre-production, or alpha stage. This is ubiquitous to all mass-produced CPUs, and most anything produced period. Early yields are bad. They get better, and prices get lower, with time.
Fun fact for Sony fans: The Cell processor has only 7 out of 8 Synergistic Processing Elements enabled to improve yields by lowering the bar for a processor to be considered viable. The number of chips you get with zero defective SPEs is much less than those with 0-1 defective SPEs.
In summary: The next Xbox CPU cannot, in fact, be poorly made because it hasn't been made yet. And when it is in the hands of consumers, the part will be fully functional, and its relative quality will be practically imperceptible to users whose primary concern is whether their GameBox 2013 turns on or not.
Jim, the processor you improperly characterize as being "poorly made" is not even in production yet. You may better understand it as pre-production, or alpha stage. This is ubiquitous to all mass-produced CPUs, and most anything produced period. Early yields are bad. They get better, and prices get lower, with time.
Fun fact for Sony fans: The Cell processor has only 7 out of 8 Synergistic Processing Elements enabled to improve yields by lowering the bar for a processor to be considered viable. The number of chips you get with zero defective SPEs is much less than those with 0-1 defective SPEs.
In summary: The next Xbox CPU cannot, in fact, be poorly made because it hasn't been made yet. And when it is in the hands of consumers, the part will be fully functional, and its relative quality will be practically imperceptible to users whose primary concern is whether their GameBox 2013 turns on or not.
@ MrXBob,
CAN I GET SAUCE ON THAT?
No, but seriously. MrXbob is correct in that the rumour is that there is a low yield. His related statements are also accurate, Aequitas in particular breaks it down nicely.
I can understand how someone that didn't know the process could come to the conclusion Jim has reached, however. Not to mention it's perfectly reasonable to be wary considering the 360 launch. This news in and of itself is no reason to panic though.
CAN I GET SAUCE ON THAT?
No, but seriously. MrXbob is correct in that the rumour is that there is a low yield. His related statements are also accurate, Aequitas in particular breaks it down nicely.
I can understand how someone that didn't know the process could come to the conclusion Jim has reached, however. Not to mention it's perfectly reasonable to be wary considering the 360 launch. This news in and of itself is no reason to panic though.
@SignumCross: The short answer is inefficiency. Game consoles aim to maximize performance in a very specific subset of computing tasks - playing games. x86 processors support vastly more functions, and backward compatibility, which may not be needed. This article goes into more detail on the history and differences of x86/PowerPC and CISC/RISC architecture, which is fundamentally the difference you're asking about.
I'm considering sitting out the next console generation myself.
I just put together a new tower that I'm pretty sure the next-gen won't surpass, at least out of the gate.
Besides, Steam is such a great experience compared to PSN. Also free :)
I think I will continue to use my PS3, and maybe pick up a 360 on the cheap, once the price drops to make way for the new hardware.
I just put together a new tower that I'm pretty sure the next-gen won't surpass, at least out of the gate.
Besides, Steam is such a great experience compared to PSN. Also free :)
I think I will continue to use my PS3, and maybe pick up a 360 on the cheap, once the price drops to make way for the new hardware.
As I understand it, it's not that the processor doesn't work right, it's that the fabrication process has a painfully low yield of processors that actually meet Microsoft's specifications. New processors usually go through low yield periods until one of the foundries figures out how to tweak the process.
Microprocessor fabrication is an incredibly tricky process, and there's a lot that can go wrong, but they're getting close to a point where a fall '13 release would be threatened.
But nobody's going to get an NeXtbox with a crappy processor, you just may have to wait longer to get a NeXtbox since they're having trouble making the processor.
Microprocessor fabrication is an incredibly tricky process, and there's a lot that can go wrong, but they're getting close to a point where a fall '13 release would be threatened.
But nobody's going to get an NeXtbox with a crappy processor, you just may have to wait longer to get a NeXtbox since they're having trouble making the processor.
Microprocessor production 101: Don't envision this as like an assembly line that churns out tiny processors one at a time.
When making microprocessors you start with a specially prepared silicon wafer (which itself costs thousands of dollars) and through a complicated procedure deposition, masking, exposure to certain light sources, cleaning, etching, etc. a large number of microprocessors are made out of/on a single wafer. The wafer is about 300mm and chips and we're currently thinking of making chips that are as small as 14nm (1000nm =1mm). In a perfect world, all of the chips that are on your wafer are work perfectly, but in practice it's the ones in the center that work well and the ones at the edge that are kind of iffy.
But each chip is individually tested and only ones that meet specifications are sent out into the wild to be used in whatever that chip is intended for. Chips that do not meet specification but are still useful for something (say, an n-core chip where only n-1 cores work, but those cores work fine) will often be kept and sold as a lower end chip (since those silcon wafers are very expensive).
The problem that MS is running into is that the fabrication process is getting very few processors that meet the spec from each wafer. Since Microsoft doesn't want the NeXtbox to cost thousands of dollars to manufacture, this is a problem that could get them to delay the release if they don't get it fixed, since they're not going to start mass producing chips until one of the foundries can get pretty good yield out of a wafer.
When making microprocessors you start with a specially prepared silicon wafer (which itself costs thousands of dollars) and through a complicated procedure deposition, masking, exposure to certain light sources, cleaning, etching, etc. a large number of microprocessors are made out of/on a single wafer. The wafer is about 300mm and chips and we're currently thinking of making chips that are as small as 14nm (1000nm =1mm). In a perfect world, all of the chips that are on your wafer are work perfectly, but in practice it's the ones in the center that work well and the ones at the edge that are kind of iffy.
But each chip is individually tested and only ones that meet specifications are sent out into the wild to be used in whatever that chip is intended for. Chips that do not meet specification but are still useful for something (say, an n-core chip where only n-1 cores work, but those cores work fine) will often be kept and sold as a lower end chip (since those silcon wafers are very expensive).
The problem that MS is running into is that the fabrication process is getting very few processors that meet the spec from each wafer. Since Microsoft doesn't want the NeXtbox to cost thousands of dollars to manufacture, this is a problem that could get them to delay the release if they don't get it fixed, since they're not going to start mass producing chips until one of the foundries can get pretty good yield out of a wafer.
@MrXBob: Not that i'm aware of. I refresh,too.
@Alan Argentina: Thanks. you just turned me on to a killer site I would've never ventured to.
@Alan Argentina: Thanks. you just turned me on to a killer site I would've never ventured to.
The CPU takes a backseat to the GPU and RAM now anyway. Look at the benchmarks Kotaku did for Max Payne 3 on PC. If you had a quad-core- even a dirty cheap Athlon II - it ran almost as good as with an i7.
That sucks, a CPU is extremely important. Almost more so than a GPU or RAM. The deference between my new Intel Quad Core and old Athlon Dual Core is miles apart with frame rates. I think it was around 30 more frames with the new one. Yes that's a huge difference.
For games maybe, but being the CPU there are things to process other than graphical prowess. Who knows what they intend to be able to do with the thing.
After what happened last gen, I don't think anybody is going to be running out to buy the next generation of consoles out of the gate....
Hmmmmm.... It would be unfortunate if this manufacturing hiccup delayed the launch of their console.
Hopefully they can get this yield issue straightened out in time. I don't think that MS wants to have shortages of their consoles because they can't get enough made that meet their standards.
Hopefully they can get this yield issue straightened out in time. I don't think that MS wants to have shortages of their consoles because they can't get enough made that meet their standards.
Early failures in the 360 units were due to solder point failures, not bad chips. As MrXbob has stated, it's likely they are having low yields.
@Brad Nieder: I can't disagree more. It's free, it works, has a great premium tier service. Home? Not everything is going to be great, but you don't have to use it. No ads either. I don't have a 360 because there's no games on it worth playing for me, but doesn't it really only have better matchmaking and that's pretty much it? I don't think I'd want cross party chat anyways, why the hell would I? Anyways, that's my opinion, I respect you having a different perspective, but I love the online I get with PSN.
"The writers and readers of this site have an understanding of tech hardware abstracted far and away from reality. MrXBob is the only one who seems to have any grasp of the meaning of the source article. Everyone else is just here for the MS/Sony fanboy flaming, hosted by circus ringmaster Jim Sterling.
Jim, the processor you improperly characterize as being "poorly made" is not even in production yet. You may better understand it as pre-production, or alpha stage. This is ubiquitous to all mass-produced CPUs, and most anything produced period. Early yields are bad. They get better, and prices get lower, with time.
Fun fact for Sony fans: The Cell processor has only 7 out of 8 Synergistic Processing Elements enabled to improve yields by lowering the bar for a processor to be considered viable. The number of chips you get with zero defective SPEs is much less than those with 0-1 defective SPEs.
In summary: The next Xbox CPU cannot, in fact, be poorly made because it hasn't been made yet. And when it is in the hands of consumers, the part will be fully functional, and its relative quality will be practically imperceptible to users whose primary concern is whether their GameBox 2013 turns on or not." -Aequitas
Having worked in a semiconductor fab I can also add that it is not unusual to have many, many engineering lots which may be pre-production runs or new steppings, among other things, floating around with the regular production lots. At most fabs these are flagged priority so that they get back to circuit designers and process technicians as quickly as possible. Eventually they will designate a production stepping and begin ramping up, and yields will continue to slowly increase as the process techs isolate production errors, and the designers increment new steppings. This is how the industry works, and has _absolutely nothing_ to do with the Xbox 360 problems, which were in PCB. Nor does it have anything to do with the "quality" of the tested and packaged IC. Hell, the author's sources do not even know the architecture of the part.
Jim, the processor you improperly characterize as being "poorly made" is not even in production yet. You may better understand it as pre-production, or alpha stage. This is ubiquitous to all mass-produced CPUs, and most anything produced period. Early yields are bad. They get better, and prices get lower, with time.
Fun fact for Sony fans: The Cell processor has only 7 out of 8 Synergistic Processing Elements enabled to improve yields by lowering the bar for a processor to be considered viable. The number of chips you get with zero defective SPEs is much less than those with 0-1 defective SPEs.
In summary: The next Xbox CPU cannot, in fact, be poorly made because it hasn't been made yet. And when it is in the hands of consumers, the part will be fully functional, and its relative quality will be practically imperceptible to users whose primary concern is whether their GameBox 2013 turns on or not." -Aequitas
Having worked in a semiconductor fab I can also add that it is not unusual to have many, many engineering lots which may be pre-production runs or new steppings, among other things, floating around with the regular production lots. At most fabs these are flagged priority so that they get back to circuit designers and process technicians as quickly as possible. Eventually they will designate a production stepping and begin ramping up, and yields will continue to slowly increase as the process techs isolate production errors, and the designers increment new steppings. This is how the industry works, and has _absolutely nothing_ to do with the Xbox 360 problems, which were in PCB. Nor does it have anything to do with the "quality" of the tested and packaged IC. Hell, the author's sources do not even know the architecture of the part.
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