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Rockstar's Dan Houser hopes it's a long time before videogames are respected photo

In a recent interview with the The Telegraph, Dan Houser, writer of GTA IV, was asked if he thinks it'll be long before videogame writing is as respected as writing books or films. Dan responds, "I hope it's long. It's really fun at the moment because we're not in any Academy and the medium's not codified. There's no accepted way of doing anything so that give us enormous pleasure because we can make it up as we go along."

After reading the full article at least five times, I still don't get it. Does Mr. Houser think that if videogame writing becomes more respectable, then videogame writers won't be able to experiment as much? That makes so little sense that I can't help but feel that I must be misunderstanding him.

As novels, movies, and comic books gradually began to be perceived as "real" forms of art, they simultaneously gained acceptance as appropriate methods of storytelling for "serious" work. Before Maus won the Pulitzer, most people thought that comic books were only good for telling sci-fi/fantasy stories. After Maus won the Pulitzer, dramatic, reality-based comic books started popping up all over, with many gaining critical and financial success.

I mean, has Mr. Houser ever even heard of the ESRB, and how their lack of respect for gaming as a medium has led to so much needless censorship? Hasn't he noticed that the same content that gets a film an "R" rating tends to get a videogame an "AO," and that "AO" games are basically treated like they're as abhorrent and destructive as child pornography?

[Thanks to Joe Burling for the tip; I apologize for mentioning his name right after bringing up child pornography.]








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26 comments | showing # 1 to 26
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Usedtabe's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:10
Usedtabe
I think he(Mr.Houser) means more in the sense that if you compare it to films, many movies that don't follow a certian archetype or try to sell something do not get green-lit in todays market.Or, if they do get green-lit, they might not do as well financially due to heavy scrutiny from so-called experts. Whereas games have no set archetype to follow, and can be free to explore whatever the hell it wants and still get funding and make a profit,atm. That's my guess.
DF's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:11
DF
Hasn't he noticed that the same content that gets a film an R-rating tends to get a videogame an AO, and that AO games are basically treated like they're as abhorrent and destructive as child pornography?
Depends on whom you ask, but such types see anything that's not G as damnable. =P Though that imbalance is silly. Sure, you can interact with games, but given how people mimic everything they see on TV, interactive or not..

I was a bit confused at first--of course games should be respected and everything! But...the whole bit about the Academy and all made me think. I don't want my precious games to go suckfestering like Hollywood. No, let's not have that.
Clockwork's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:11
Clockwork
The fact that video game writing isn't respected right now is causing more problems than it would if it were respected. Now, people don't understand why you have to have such gratuitous violence in a game. As it gets more respected, people will have a better understanding of the art form.

I think he got it backwards.
Foshi's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:28
Foshi
Child pornography makes everything better. Right... ? Right?
whiteskwirl's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:31
whiteskwirl
He explains his point in the very next paragraph:

“Movies and TV and books have become so structured in the way they have to approach things. Not working in that environment gives us enormous freedom. I'd rather keep the freedom and not have the respect.”
Clockwork's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:48
Clockwork
@whiteskwirl

Yeah I see the point he's trying to make, but I feel like it's a real gray area. He doesn't want respect because he'd rather have freedom? I don't agree with him on the idea that Movies, TV, and books have become structured. They're art. Different people express themselves through these mediums in unique ways all the time nowadays.
Midknight's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:54
Midknight
Developers, artists, writers and everyone in between all have OUR respect. The target audience. The gamers. The people who matter. The people who, at the end of the day, keep a roof over their heads and food on their tables. Our respect, our attention and our opinions are the only ones that anyone making a game should care about.

Keep the freedom indeed!
Diverse's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:56
Diverse
Who cares about writing in a vidya gayme? The only thing that matters is if the main character is large enough to manhandle me in the shower lol.
whiteskwirl's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 22:56
whiteskwirl
He's probably referring to the business side of the process of making the game, not the creative side. Although one does affect the other.

I don't know. Two paragraphs isn't a lot to go on.
GamingGoddess's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 23:08
GamingGoddess
Games HAVE been structured and codified, just in a different way from movies and TV: Characters in RPGs stand in a line. You have lives. You continue when you die. You start out with crappy weapons and over time you find bigger weapons. People bitch all the time that too many games stick to cookie-cutter genres.

I think what he might mean, and what makes more sense to me, is that Rockstar can get away with putting out 47 games where you beat up and kill hookers as a gameplay mechanic, because there's no one to say "Um, take that out guys, people are going to think you're a bunch of unbelievable fucking misogynists" like they would if a movie franchise tried to get away with that.

In some respects that does mean there's more freedom, but if the best we're getting as a result of this 'freedom' is GTA, they can be a little less free as far as I'm concerned. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it isn't stupid.
sbs's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 23:30
sbs
His point is, it's fun for the writers to still be able to shape their approach to the whole thing, and there is new ideas to be explored around every corner.
When making Farcry 2, for example, not to say that it had a great story or anything, the developer had a team for "Narrative Design" which tried to make the storyline flexible to what the player did and how he advanced. That's highly intruiging as a concept, is it not? Especially for sandbox games.
When Level Designer of Thief 3's 'the cradle' went on to do Bioshocks 'Fort Frolic'-level, he worked with Ken Levine and the art guys to flesh it out as they went, refining the writing and visuals.
If something like that (communication) doesn't happen then maybe the writing, or art, or design, or gameplay gets dislocated from the whole thing and doesn't match the rest of the direction of the game anymore. And there is no formula yet for how this should happen in development, because everyone still makes it up as they go.
Warren Spector, for instance, lamented that games don't even have a language yet. He said designers from different developers can't even really talk to each other properly because most words in game development have differing meanings from place to place. That's how much of an infant this whole thing is, and forcing it to grow up would be wrong.

What I don't quite understand is your point in using this to go mental on the ESRB, this reads like one of Jims posts where he uses some kind of vaguely related story to rant about how games are presented in the media. There is a much more interesting discussion to be had here than whine about how some institution who tell consumers what game is good for who doesn't give an interesting game proper respect. I say fuck 'em.
sbs's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 23:38
sbs
no offence by the way, i just thought last paragraph of your post was a little disorienting.
excuse some bad wordings it's not my first language
Autumn's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 23:41
Autumn
I think you have to understand that he's speaking from the perspective of a writer.
Writers don't care about censorship, they aren't involved in production past a certain point.

And he's not talking about the freedom to create the story he wants to create. He's talking about the freedom to present it however he likes, and to tell it in whatever interactive way he likes.
This is something no longer possible for tv and film writing, as you are expected to present a script with a certain layout, in a specific font and with a certain number of pages, and if your script does not conform to this then it isn't even read.

As soon as game writing becomes a 'respected' [read: mainstream] medium, someone will create a format for game writing to follow, and the creativity will be stifled.

Consider the following analogy: If game writing is a planet, today's writers are the pioneers. They are mapping the world, traveling to unknown places and finding out exactly what the rules are. It's not necessarily comfortable for those of us who are along for the ride, and many games are lost at sea, but it's still EXCITING and VITAL for the writers.

All Dan Houser is saying is that he'd rather be free to explore in his own way, and if that means risking scurvy and death by pirate then so be it. At least there's no health and safety regulations.
GamingGoddess's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/28/2009 23:44
GamingGoddess
@sbs: Wait, I'm confused.

So you're saying that developers can't really talk to each other because they don't have a language yet, but at the same time, the undefined formula for how different parts of the design team communicate with each other constitutes a great environment for creativity which is, due to the medium's youth, currently unique to gaming?

So it's great that developers can all make up their own ways of organizing their projects, but since they can't actually communicate due to the lack of a codified gaming language and working order, it's the many layers of mis-communication and anarchy that creates an X-factor that makes games just that much more interesting? Like, it would be great if they could form a totally original creative entity, because that sort of thing can ONLY happen in games due to the lack of orthodoxy, but since nobody knows the rules, they're just playing Calvinball anyway, and Calvinball is fun? So in the end it all comes down to the joy of anarchy?

Awesome. I didn't realize that Rockstar dude was so deep.
sbs's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 00:08
sbs
Calvinball?

The Warren Spector-thing was more of an example for how the whole process is not in a defintive shape, it doesn't have any special relation to the topic of writing specifically when his job is more like bringing this as one of many elements in the mix.
He meant it like, when he talks to lead designers from other companies, or their art lead talks to an other companies art lead, theres misunderstandings, not inside a team.

But yeah, if some postmortems are anything to go by, for some games a little anarchy worked out ok =) Some classics are great because of some sheer dumb luck involved. See Deus Ex which then was followed up to by the infamous Deus Ex 2 which while being a decent and interesting shooter was rubbish as a "Deus Ex-Game", although the developer thought they would just make it better with what they learned from the mistakes(or what they thought were mistakes anyway) they made in original Deus Ex, and didn't realize they took much of the old charms out.
Joe Burling's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 00:43
Joe Burling
Now my name is on the internet in the same sentence as cp. Forever. Frozen in time. I hope my boss never googles my name. :)
JustLikeBuck's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 03:49
JustLikeBuck
I think he may be talking about how a Movie Script can be green-lit on the whim of some fat exec who insists on putting Will Smith into it.

The majority of Video Games aspire to Summer Blockbuster level of intelligence and suspension of belief at best, whilst only a few try and push the medium forward.

The last thing we need is games being cancelled because they didn't feature Mario, Sonic, Master Chief.
Tron Knotts's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 06:49
Tron Knotts
@ Everybody- I still don't get it.

Movies come out all the time that have their own unique story structures, like Memento and Run Lola Run and Pulp Fiction. Novels, an even more respected art form, are even more varried in their approches. TV is a bit codified these days, but movies and books aren't, at least, not from where I stand.

Videogames, on the other hand, are generally all the same in terms of how they approach writing. They aren't able to take as amny risks as movies or books, largely because they are taken seriously by a much smaller audience than movies and books. They reach a much smaller audience because they aren't as respected as those other mediums.

So again, I ask "What the hell is Dan Houser talking about?"
VWGTI's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 07:24
VWGTI
“Movies and TV and books have become so structured in the way they have to approach things. Not working in that environment gives us enormous freedom. I'd rather keep the freedom and not have the respect.”

That's what he's talking about.
xenon's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 07:29
xenon
I think he actually makes some sense. The comparison with comic books is only partially valid: what are they right now? Underground, artsy, for-fans or child-oriented. Nothing wrong with this, on the contrary it's great, but do you see something missing? I do, and it's "mainstream". You don't see ad for comics on tv, they don't talk about violent comic books on tv, they don't routinely sell millions of copies and move billions in related products, and so on.

The videogames world as a whole (with all the exceptions and differences) decided to go in another direction: the one of the movies. This is pretty evident in business models, in developing tendencies (see any Prince Of Persia review and the recent interview to the author of Braid), in production values...

Videogames will be fully institutionalized, and this will certainly restrict what you can do with them (while keeping them commercially viable). So I think I understand what Houser means: this is the end of an era, and something will be lost forever. An era, by the way, that they (meaning game developers and especially publishers) definitely contributed to euthanize, if not kill.
Demtor's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 08:59
Demtor
I guess I interpreted his words a bit differently than you guys. To me it sounds like he simply wants to continue writing for video games without worrying about any serious criticism of his work. And who can blame him? No one wants their work torn to shreds by critics.
cheater's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 10:39
cheater
Wait, Maus won the Pulitzer? Jesus.
I loved those books,I always thought they were under appreciated.
Guess not.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 11:01
Holyetheline
I can see his point. He feels like a video game writing pioneer who is going to sculpt game writing into something dynamic and unpredictable.
Valentia X's Avatar - Comment posted on 01/29/2009 11:24
Valentia X
I call bullshit.

Yes, if you want a trillion-dollar budget and big name actors, you need to kow-tow to the executives at whatever movie company you want, and if you're looking for a generic best-seller, yes you need vampies seducing women or magical bidets or what the hell ever.

However, one can still push the envelope and make amazing games, or movies, or books, if you're creative enough and you're willing to shill your own work. Christ, the Harry Potter series was passed over by a lot of publishers because they thought no-one would ever want to read that sort of series- now J.K. Rowling is richer than the Queen of England, and she was not all that innovative, all things considered. Peter Jackson refused to condense the movies into one or two films. Juno was a tiny film compared to, say, War of the Worlds, and what has had more of a cultural impact? They did it in 'respected' mediums and came out on top.

No, you're not guarenteed to come out on top, yes, you'll probably have to struggle more than if the CEO of EA likes your story- but it can be done. You can challenge the status quo and if others don't like it, think it's over the top or sacriligeous or too complicated, they're probably not to audience you want, anyways. Are you looking for making lots of money, or are you looking to push the limits of your medium?

And if you want it to not be about money, fire the idiot CEOs and keep the creativity pumping in.
Jumbo's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/23/2009 16:13
Jumbo
Saying comic books were better after Maus won a Pulitzer is like saying rap music was better after DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince won a Grammy. It might be true, but it doesn't actually mean anything.
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