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Damn Jim, you may as well prepare a cynical edition for every post now. Start a Kickstarter for it, I'll gladly lend my support.
Why does this change anything? They rebooted the series to attract new players. They use rape talk and a weakened character to attract new people. That's just weird. Doesn't matter if the one who wrote it has a penis or not.
@Eamar: Fair enough.
Allow me to rephrase it: Crystal Dinamics should pay no mind to a bunch of people, which i assume it's mostly composed by modern feminists -and i've reasons to believe so, given how vocal some of them are when it comes to whine about trite shit and how the mainstream media keeps pandering by making echo of their ridicule demands.- (and the rest it's probably people with nostalgia goggles who liked Tomb Raider mainly because Lara conformed to their mary sueish fantasy of playing as a younger female version of Indiana Jones, and maybe some paranoid parents added to the mix who just don't understand ratings and blindly believe all videogames are for children and thus they can show murder and even torture but no hints of sex, let alone rape).
The new Lara looks more human, and therefore is more vulnerable. The kind of shit she has to face will surely make her a stronger person, which comes in hand with the idea of rebooting the series.
Same happened with the new enemies, and given they're dangerous armed criminals in the middle of nowhere, it's only logical to expect that at least one of them would most likely think of raping a young very attractive woman that came in their way. Criminals have warped up rationalizations to justify to themselves doing what they do and taking what they want. Someone who would kill the survivors of a plane crash over some kind of profit would likely has no qualms sexually taking by force an attractive person if it looks like there won't be any severe negative consequences for the criminal.
Crystal Dynamics shouldn't apologize for trying to make the game setting more realistic. If anything, they should tell people to grow up.
Allow me to rephrase it: Crystal Dinamics should pay no mind to a bunch of people, which i assume it's mostly composed by modern feminists -and i've reasons to believe so, given how vocal some of them are when it comes to whine about trite shit and how the mainstream media keeps pandering by making echo of their ridicule demands.- (and the rest it's probably people with nostalgia goggles who liked Tomb Raider mainly because Lara conformed to their mary sueish fantasy of playing as a younger female version of Indiana Jones, and maybe some paranoid parents added to the mix who just don't understand ratings and blindly believe all videogames are for children and thus they can show murder and even torture but no hints of sex, let alone rape).
The new Lara looks more human, and therefore is more vulnerable. The kind of shit she has to face will surely make her a stronger person, which comes in hand with the idea of rebooting the series.
Same happened with the new enemies, and given they're dangerous armed criminals in the middle of nowhere, it's only logical to expect that at least one of them would most likely think of raping a young very attractive woman that came in their way. Criminals have warped up rationalizations to justify to themselves doing what they do and taking what they want. Someone who would kill the survivors of a plane crash over some kind of profit would likely has no qualms sexually taking by force an attractive person if it looks like there won't be any severe negative consequences for the criminal.
Crystal Dynamics shouldn't apologize for trying to make the game setting more realistic. If anything, they should tell people to grow up.
"Why does this change anything?"
Because the rape and "weakened character" is nonsense. And it's just ironic that a lot of the same people who scream sexism also put characters written by the same woman on their lists of "proper female characters" (Faith, Nariko, etc.).
Because the rape and "weakened character" is nonsense. And it's just ironic that a lot of the same people who scream sexism also put characters written by the same woman on their lists of "proper female characters" (Faith, Nariko, etc.).
@Collateral E
I say "there's an issue we can discuss here in reference to women in games", you say "you want women to get special treatment" in response. There's no logical way to draw that conclusion given what I've said, there just isn't enough information. Granted, I haven't gotten to bring my base stance up much because of the shenanigans these threads see, but that doesn't mean you can ballpark my stance and not have it be a straw man. You don't need to acknowledge the misrepresentation as such, you only need to misrepresent my point by refuting an exaggeration of that point.
"There's an issue here that we can talk about, as opposed to no issue at all"
"You want women to get special treatment"
If you still disagree with me on that front, it's cool. We can agree to disagree, it's semantics.
And fair enough, I make the mistake of going too far out on a limb on what people write too. Shit happens, it's cool.
One last thing I want to bring up though:
"and my own belief that promoting "women's representation in games" is an inherently sexist endeavor, and I think the language used by yourself and many others, the language of the feminist movement, is also inherently sexist in general."
Using the word "inherent" assumes 2 things:
1)That there was a level playing field to begin with. Whether you believe there is or isn't, that's just not a can of worms I want to open on a gaming site. I just want to point out that there's wiggle room in the language.
2) That I believe only in the promotion of women in gaming. While I do believe women should be better represented in games, I believe that of all characters regardless of sex/race/etc. It just happens to be that the subject at the moment was/is women, and the conversation always seems to veer off in an extreme direction pretty quickly.
It's hard to get most people's full view on this stuff because a few people devolve the whole thing into something that more resembles a political debate (a hyperbolic circus). That's the point I'm making here; that there's some real good ass conversation to be had, the "there's no issue at all, move along" crowd just stifles the shit out of it at every turn.
I hope I didn't come off like too much of a dickwad. This kind of debate is exactly the kind that I'm talking about.
I say "there's an issue we can discuss here in reference to women in games", you say "you want women to get special treatment" in response. There's no logical way to draw that conclusion given what I've said, there just isn't enough information. Granted, I haven't gotten to bring my base stance up much because of the shenanigans these threads see, but that doesn't mean you can ballpark my stance and not have it be a straw man. You don't need to acknowledge the misrepresentation as such, you only need to misrepresent my point by refuting an exaggeration of that point.
"There's an issue here that we can talk about, as opposed to no issue at all"
"You want women to get special treatment"
If you still disagree with me on that front, it's cool. We can agree to disagree, it's semantics.
And fair enough, I make the mistake of going too far out on a limb on what people write too. Shit happens, it's cool.
One last thing I want to bring up though:
"and my own belief that promoting "women's representation in games" is an inherently sexist endeavor, and I think the language used by yourself and many others, the language of the feminist movement, is also inherently sexist in general."
Using the word "inherent" assumes 2 things:
1)That there was a level playing field to begin with. Whether you believe there is or isn't, that's just not a can of worms I want to open on a gaming site. I just want to point out that there's wiggle room in the language.
2) That I believe only in the promotion of women in gaming. While I do believe women should be better represented in games, I believe that of all characters regardless of sex/race/etc. It just happens to be that the subject at the moment was/is women, and the conversation always seems to veer off in an extreme direction pretty quickly.
It's hard to get most people's full view on this stuff because a few people devolve the whole thing into something that more resembles a political debate (a hyperbolic circus). That's the point I'm making here; that there's some real good ass conversation to be had, the "there's no issue at all, move along" crowd just stifles the shit out of it at every turn.
I hope I didn't come off like too much of a dickwad. This kind of debate is exactly the kind that I'm talking about.
"Crystal Dynamics, furthering its attempts to distance itself from the word "rape" and any other tender gender issues, has announced Rhianna Pratchett, a woman, as the lead writer of the game. The studio has made extra careful that everybody knows that a woman is writing the game, therefore every controversy is now null and void."
Well, you do realize that it would eventually be announced that she was writing the game, right? It was announced when when Mirror's Edge hadn't been released yet, it was announced when Overlord hadn't been released yet, and it was released when Overlord II hadn't been released yet. Her name, as an author, carries weight, and this kind of reveal isn't unique at all.
I'm sure it will very much stick in the craw of those who flicked their bean to the idea of a faceless, misogynist writer creating a male, white-knighting voyeur fantasy from his mom's basement, but honestly, what the fuck doesn't?
Well, you do realize that it would eventually be announced that she was writing the game, right? It was announced when when Mirror's Edge hadn't been released yet, it was announced when Overlord hadn't been released yet, and it was released when Overlord II hadn't been released yet. Her name, as an author, carries weight, and this kind of reveal isn't unique at all.
I'm sure it will very much stick in the craw of those who flicked their bean to the idea of a faceless, misogynist writer creating a male, white-knighting voyeur fantasy from his mom's basement, but honestly, what the fuck doesn't?
can crystal dynamics ever "win" in this stupid shit? no matter what they do they will look like idiots, right? lol
"TOMB RAIDER CAN'T BE GOOD AAAAAAAAAAH!"
"TOMB RAIDER CAN'T BE GOOD AAAAAAAAAAH!"
I enjoy how this has devolved into a beard pulling contest..."you pull my beard, I'll pull yours."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtkflEaeGjo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtkflEaeGjo&feature=related
@Shinta You're really quick to put on the mask of "victim", aren't you? "YOU'RE INSULTING ME!"
Here's a tip; someone debating with you does not automatically mean your whole character is being brought into question, just your opinion. Not once in Alan's post did he use the term "You're a..." It was all about the Chappelle show, which it is somehow HIS fault that you did understand his argument.
Also, it's VERY destructive to think "Okay, it's written by a woman THAT MEANS THE WHOLE THING IS NOT SEXIST AGAINST WOMEN". As when Alan pointed out, The Chappelle show was racist against black people, while still being written by a BLACK person. Read it over again if you still do not understand, it would be repetitive for me to try and explain again.
If you take anything away from here, let it be this. Just because a person belongs to a certain minority ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN'T BE RACIST/SEXIST AGAINST IT.
Here's a tip; someone debating with you does not automatically mean your whole character is being brought into question, just your opinion. Not once in Alan's post did he use the term "You're a..." It was all about the Chappelle show, which it is somehow HIS fault that you did understand his argument.
Also, it's VERY destructive to think "Okay, it's written by a woman THAT MEANS THE WHOLE THING IS NOT SEXIST AGAINST WOMEN". As when Alan pointed out, The Chappelle show was racist against black people, while still being written by a BLACK person. Read it over again if you still do not understand, it would be repetitive for me to try and explain again.
If you take anything away from here, let it be this. Just because a person belongs to a certain minority ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN'T BE RACIST/SEXIST AGAINST IT.
"Crystal Dynamics has announced that writer Rhianna Pratchett is on board to pen the narrative for the upcoming Tomb Raider reboot."
Awesome that the Daughter of Terry Pratchett is doing this.. But at the same time, are we announcing it because a Pratchett is writing it, or because a *woman* is writing it? Seriously, is this just a ploy to guide away from all this woman issue/rape crap surrounding this game?
Cause if it is the latter then bad form Crystal Dynamics, way to play everyone elses game.
I'm buying the Cynical Edition of this article, Day 1.
Awesome that the Daughter of Terry Pratchett is doing this.. But at the same time, are we announcing it because a Pratchett is writing it, or because a *woman* is writing it? Seriously, is this just a ploy to guide away from all this woman issue/rape crap surrounding this game?
Cause if it is the latter then bad form Crystal Dynamics, way to play everyone elses game.
I'm buying the Cynical Edition of this article, Day 1.
@Alan
Actually, my use of Inherent implies that I think sexism is a permanent feature in almost all current-wave feminist thought and causes. I never "assumed" there would be an even playing field. But I propose that the route "feminism" has and is taking to "level" the playing field is sexist at its core.
With respect to you, no offense, I've read a lot of your other posts. Yeah, I ballparked you, but I think things like your support for Sarkeesian, for example, is sexist because I think her project is inherently sexist. That still doesn't make me characterizing you as sexist a strawman, even if I'm wrong. I didn't make the connection/comparison that you seem to think I made.
I agree with you on one thing, there is a lot to say about gender and gender representation in games, and characters in general could be represented better, particularly female, but also male (and also racial subgroups).
Where we seem to differ (and this is based on your support of Sarkeesian) is that you support looking at it from a feminist viewpoint, which is always along the lines of "the patriarchy is perpetuating stereotypes that are a major cause for the rampant misogyny present in gaming, and games should be more respectful to women." While I support a more gender neutral viewpoint, along the lines of "Gaming's constant representation of women as boobs and a barely covered ass, and representation of men as war-scarred badasses reduces the credibility of gaming in general."
But that is completely beyond the whole dialogue with respect to Tomb Raider, which has been blown way out of proportion, gathered way too much press, and is garnering just as much trolling from the side sympathetic to feminism as it is from the side hostile to it.
Actually, my use of Inherent implies that I think sexism is a permanent feature in almost all current-wave feminist thought and causes. I never "assumed" there would be an even playing field. But I propose that the route "feminism" has and is taking to "level" the playing field is sexist at its core.
With respect to you, no offense, I've read a lot of your other posts. Yeah, I ballparked you, but I think things like your support for Sarkeesian, for example, is sexist because I think her project is inherently sexist. That still doesn't make me characterizing you as sexist a strawman, even if I'm wrong. I didn't make the connection/comparison that you seem to think I made.
I agree with you on one thing, there is a lot to say about gender and gender representation in games, and characters in general could be represented better, particularly female, but also male (and also racial subgroups).
Where we seem to differ (and this is based on your support of Sarkeesian) is that you support looking at it from a feminist viewpoint, which is always along the lines of "the patriarchy is perpetuating stereotypes that are a major cause for the rampant misogyny present in gaming, and games should be more respectful to women." While I support a more gender neutral viewpoint, along the lines of "Gaming's constant representation of women as boobs and a barely covered ass, and representation of men as war-scarred badasses reduces the credibility of gaming in general."
But that is completely beyond the whole dialogue with respect to Tomb Raider, which has been blown way out of proportion, gathered way too much press, and is garnering just as much trolling from the side sympathetic to feminism as it is from the side hostile to it.
@Collateral E
I don't support her. I think she's misguided at best, and someone with a chip on her shoulder at worst, but I support her right not to be harassed incessantly over it. She didn't deserve a fraction of what she got, nobody deserves that level of vitriol over something so trivial. Criticized? Yes. Attacked? Nope.
And yeah, I do believe that female stereotypes are over represented in games, and I think that that's exactly how marketing wants it. That doesn't have anything to do with feminism, I believe that the short brown-haired medium-to-buff built white protagonist is just as over represented, and for the same reason.
I think we have the same basic view, it's just that no one really gets all worked up when men are stereotyped in games (most gamers don't give a shit, many of those are proud of it), so the converse argument never gets to come into play much.
But yeah, you're right. Lots of people are trolling on both sides of the bridge.
I don't support her. I think she's misguided at best, and someone with a chip on her shoulder at worst, but I support her right not to be harassed incessantly over it. She didn't deserve a fraction of what she got, nobody deserves that level of vitriol over something so trivial. Criticized? Yes. Attacked? Nope.
And yeah, I do believe that female stereotypes are over represented in games, and I think that that's exactly how marketing wants it. That doesn't have anything to do with feminism, I believe that the short brown-haired medium-to-buff built white protagonist is just as over represented, and for the same reason.
I think we have the same basic view, it's just that no one really gets all worked up when men are stereotyped in games (most gamers don't give a shit, many of those are proud of it), so the converse argument never gets to come into play much.
But yeah, you're right. Lots of people are trolling on both sides of the bridge.
@Qreg - "...a weakened character to attract new people"
Not to interrupt todays episode of the dtoid gender politics show with silly video game stuff, but what you said was wrong.
Let me caps it, just so this can stick out so hopefully I won't have to write it out. Again.
THE NEW LARA CROFT IS NOT A WEAKENED VERSION OF THE OLD ONE. THE OLD ONE, *ALSO* HAD AN EXTREMELY SIMILAR BACKSTORY TO THIS. THE OLD ONE *ALSO* HAD TO FACE A LIFE AND DEATH SURVIVAL SITUATION, IT WAS JUST ONLY EVER TALKED ABOUT IN THE MANUAL BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T GIVE A FUCK BACK IN THE DAY. AND NOW THEY DO. apparently.
THIS NEW GAME IS AN ELABORATION AND ALTERATION OF EXISTING TR CANON. THE NEW VERSION IS NOT FUCKING WEAKENED, SHE'S JUST FUCKING STARTING OUT!
AND BESIDES, HOW CAN YOU MAKE A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT LIKE THAT ON A GAME THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE POSSIBLY PLAYED YET, AND THEREFORE, YOU ACTUALLY KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT THE NEW LARA, OR THIS GAME!!!
Any other characters from games you've only seen trailers for you want to condemn while you're at it?
Not to interrupt todays episode of the dtoid gender politics show with silly video game stuff, but what you said was wrong.
Let me caps it, just so this can stick out so hopefully I won't have to write it out. Again.
THE NEW LARA CROFT IS NOT A WEAKENED VERSION OF THE OLD ONE. THE OLD ONE, *ALSO* HAD AN EXTREMELY SIMILAR BACKSTORY TO THIS. THE OLD ONE *ALSO* HAD TO FACE A LIFE AND DEATH SURVIVAL SITUATION, IT WAS JUST ONLY EVER TALKED ABOUT IN THE MANUAL BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T GIVE A FUCK BACK IN THE DAY. AND NOW THEY DO. apparently.
THIS NEW GAME IS AN ELABORATION AND ALTERATION OF EXISTING TR CANON. THE NEW VERSION IS NOT FUCKING WEAKENED, SHE'S JUST FUCKING STARTING OUT!
AND BESIDES, HOW CAN YOU MAKE A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT LIKE THAT ON A GAME THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE POSSIBLY PLAYED YET, AND THEREFORE, YOU ACTUALLY KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT THE NEW LARA, OR THIS GAME!!!
Any other characters from games you've only seen trailers for you want to condemn while you're at it?
@ Tin Man you're goddamn right I'll condemn from a trailer. just like I condemn any product with a shitty commercial. but I'm not condemning, and I don't magically just know what the game is going to be like. what i see is a terrible trailer. it's supposed to sell me on the game, and it's failed as marketing because I don't want to play it.
i see a bunch of dark grim and gritty being sold as mature posturing. because this is a trailer, and is supposed to be showing you what the game is like. this doesn't interest me.
It could be a great game, it could be a terrible one. but it's not like i'm going to run out and pre=order it. the trailer leaves a bad taste instead of enticing me to go get the game. It could be great, but it now has considerable ground to gain to regain said interest.
AND LAY OFF THE GODDAMN CAPS LOCK.
i see a bunch of dark grim and gritty being sold as mature posturing. because this is a trailer, and is supposed to be showing you what the game is like. this doesn't interest me.
It could be a great game, it could be a terrible one. but it's not like i'm going to run out and pre=order it. the trailer leaves a bad taste instead of enticing me to go get the game. It could be great, but it now has considerable ground to gain to regain said interest.
AND LAY OFF THE GODDAMN CAPS LOCK.
Shinta & Collateral E 100% Ditto.
@ Alan Argentina
Jim knows what a strawman is.
PS3 Users & Final Fantasy 13 love you.
@ DTOID
Why is the comment preview box on the front page header for this story broke.
*Conspiracy*
@ Alan Argentina
Jim knows what a strawman is.
PS3 Users & Final Fantasy 13 love you.
@ DTOID
Why is the comment preview box on the front page header for this story broke.
*Conspiracy*
I'm really sick and tired of Jim Sterling stirring up controversy just because he can. The way the 'gaming media' has jumped upon a few wayward words is really disgusting. For starters, Eurogamer is infamous for shit-stirring. Apparently, Destructoid is no different.
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