I used to randomly rant about stuff on RetroForceGO!, but now I do it in front of a camera because I enjoy being able to count all the acne scars on my face.
This week's Rev Rant -- they're scheduled for Thursdays now, tell your friends -- is about how Snatcher for the Sega CD somehow managed to wring more creativity and interesting gameplay out of its control scheme than most Wii games. It's also a cautionary tale about how you shouldn't stand so close to the goddamn camera so your face takes up two thirds of the frame.
Hit the jump for the video, and feel free to suggest rant topics or give feedback. Or both.
I wish I could play snatcher but I don't own a sega CD. I agree that the wiimote is sometimes just a glorified mouse. I think nintendo realized this and they are trying to correct it with motionplus, seeing all the developers use the wiimote so poorly may have convinced to release a device that would be a signal to developers that you can do a lot more.
This depresses me, since I've never had a game that makes any connection to the real word besides MGS1, which I was only ever watching my brother play.
This is why there need to be more Wild West games with lightguns. Quickdraw situations rising up out of nowhere would be a fun "OH CRAP WHERE DID I PUT THE GU-" situation.
"I agree that the wiimote is sometimes just a glorified mouse."
That's what makes it freaking awesome in my opinion. Screw motion controls up to this point --- The IR pointer is where it's at as far as I'm concerned.
Good show sir. The best part for me was watching the guy from snatcher just staring angrily in the background. Blinking ever so often, hinting at something deeper.
okay, now that i've actually watched it, you have some good... points. <---- see what i did there! bwhahahahahaha!
I agree with you though, most games on the wii that use the motion control make it unnecessary. for instance, in twilight princess when you're flailing your arms about trying to kill your enemies with your sword you tend to either miss or do a different attack than what was originally intended, at least, thats what i've experienced. and red steel, i just fucking hate that game.
1) MUSE
2) You look beat up. You're still sexy.
3) Why isn't this one "HD" like the last one? I want to see your face in HD.
4) In MoH Heroes 2 you have to shoulder your Wiimote in order to use the Rocket Launcher. It made using the rocket somehow interactive and put a twist to the "just point at the screen" mechanic.
Yes please for more complex, wiimote as a thing sort of controls. I even liked the twist stuff from Prime 3.
How about a game where you have to keep pressing B and A to hold onto something, but you can still point and shoot at things. The rub is that you have to figure out a way to press 2 to fire. Because, you know, you're encumbered.
I'll take a game with convoluted controls now, if only because we've gotten so good at making everything so unobtrusive.
That Samurai game sounds awesome. So if you kept the wiimote up, you'd have your sword out all the time, and people would flee from you or tell you you looked like an idiot. And the game would be a sort of adventure/puzzler controlled with the nunchuck, with occasional action sequences which required you to draw your blade and kill with a well-timed strike. Sign me up!
Another brilliant, as expected, Rev Rant. I don't have a Wii, but yout perspective about it it's very interesting, it transforms the WiiMote from a piece of plastic to something that connect the player and the game.
PS: And if you let me add this, you're quite handsome my friend.
The idea of picking up a gun for the shooting parts of the game sounds way awesome. It's that kind of creativity and intuitiveness that really stands out in games.
Now that I actually watched the video, I can comment on it. :P
I agree, most of the games on the Wii are basically just cash-ins to take advantage of the popularity of the motion controls in the Wii remote, and most of them don't even work the way they're supposed to. I do think MotionPlus will help developers realize that it's time for a way more immersive experience than what we've been given so far. I understand that the Wii was never meant to ship with perfect motion controls, but that doesn't mean companies had to pull what they have been for so long.
@Grass
Podtoid 100 wasn't that bad! Someone should get on editing out all the "uhhhhhh, what is this again??" callers and would be a decent episode worthy of posting :-D.
I second the Dr. Who game. Of course, it would have to have Tennant's likeness. Now that I think about it...a cameo from The Doctor would be AWESOME in Fallout New Vegas...
They did a similar thing in No More Heroes, where you had to hold the Wiimote up to your ear and listen to the internal speaker as if it was a cell phone. Blew my mind!
you really really like snatcher huh?
i mentioned it to my room mate and he nearly shot through the god damned ceiling at it's mention.
upon further sega reminiscing, we both made a healthy decision to grab a sega cd and dreamcast and watch the mould grow on our faces as we play through our childhood favourites.
anthony, you might find Wii's version of Call of Duty 3 to be of interest - it's not an especially impressive game, in general, but it *does* use the wiimote a bit more creatively - particularly, whereas in the previous games (and cod 4 and 5) when you plant explosives, you just click a button. in cod3, you have to act out the process using your wiimote (which gives you a better idea of how they armed these devices too). driving sequences, you have to hold the controller (including nunchuck) like a driving wheel, and, at certain points you and a nazi struggle for control of a single rifle - you have to hold the wiimote and nunchuck akin to how your character is holding the rifle and struggle with it, and when you finally get the upper hand, you have to thrust the controller at the screen to bayonette the fella (problem with these struggles is, i found the controls to be extremely iffy, and it's hard to figure out *how* the game wants you to play these sequences properly - you'll likely die a ton of times before you figure it out). in spite of the awkwardness of figuring out what the hell you're supposed to do, though, it's an interesting addition.
... ironically, i found that simply aiming your gun and shooting, on the other hand, was godawfully annoying and unaccurate - you wobble around so much, it feels like you're submerged in water...
I have a feeling you are on the right track there bud, but in essence the lack of incorporation of a virtual physical world in which you play the game in does not make up for the fact that poor design choice makes something more immersive. Frustration is a key element to the destruction of a game.
Your imagination based around the idea of making it feel more realistic by fumbling around for a gun or whatever is taken into consideration as a point that yes it's interaction in the really real world heh but in essence, this just means someone should go out and make a tripod with a gun mounted to it beside them pointing at the tv. We're smart apes right? We'd find the best and easiest solution. How would that be immersive or even realistic in the sense of playing that game... yer telling me someone would walk down a hallway dragging a tripod with a gun on it so they wouldn't have to reach for it in case of an encounter?
How would that be any different here?
Personally I think the inclusion of the controller being controlled by Psychomantis or whatever in Metal Gear was BRILLIANT. That was more of an example of the game coming out to the real world and meeting you in a tangible state. Very cool the first time I watched that...like it made my flesh kinda crawl that this thing on my tv was fuckin with my controller.
Good ideas Rev, but I think the examples are a little weak and a little thin in terms of believing it was a great idea. Form and function are key factors...imagination can make up for it.
That should be 1/4 as long. You took 4 minutes to say a one minute point. Any time you end a paragraph with "i don't know if that makes any sense; i hope it does" scrap it and try again.
The intros and outros (mainly the outros) are obnoxious because you constantly choose to make the music abrubpty play over you as you're still talking.
That was part of my own personal drinking game back when you had your rev rants on retroforce. Everytime you'd play the music before you're done talking and it just sounds like your voice trails off I would sever the head of a puppy, turn its head upside down and suck out the blood thru its nose.
or somethin.
let yourself finish talking!!
I completely agree with you Rev. I remember when the Wii was first announced I was totally excited for all the games that I assumed would feature really innovative uses for the Wiimote. It was terribly disappointing to realize that the Wiimote motion controls were basically just a stand in for a mouse or a right analog stick. It's a real shame.
Ha, I also found the light gun use in Snatcher quite immersive when I played the game 15 years ago. Still, I'm glad to see it's appreciated even today.
I agree with you about the Wii's failings. I really enjoyed Z&W, but I've yet to feel that same kind of immersion with any other game. For the most part, the Wii remote just ends up mimicking mouse input, only less accurate. I wanted the Wii to provide a unique gaming experience, not a low resolution blend of current console and PC gaming.
I agree 100%. I think that Red Steel 2 is actually doing something like that where you must change the way you hold the Wiimote to either swing the sword or fire your gun.
That's a real interesting link between the wiimote and Snatcher. Pretty good video. Also I enjoyed the samurai clip in the background, was that 7 samurai? I haven't seen it in years.
This is the exact subject of a blog I was starting to write. This rant will hopefully spur me on to add my own two cents on the subject of immersion and motion control.
This reminds me of Deus Ex. Sometimes you need to enter a code on a keypad and the great thing is that you can do it with the number keys on your keyboard. Or login on a computer and you type in the username and password It's a small thing but it feels really cool instead of having to use an ingame UI or have the information automatically inserted.
Good stuff. After re-watching Blade Runner, and all the previous articles here, I'm starting to grow rather fond of Snatcher -- a game I've never played and likely never will.
I need to bulk up my retro game collection asap. All this talk about Snatcher makes me wonder what other awesome games I missed by never owning my own Sega system and just relying on friends to play the good games...
Would you say another code do this to an extent on the DS? You had to use it in ways which made you feel you where using the DS outside the games enviorment.
It's a rather small example, but I thought the phone conversations in No More Heroes were a neat little trick. You could have the voice clip played out of the Wiimote's speaker, so that you'd have to hold it up to your ear like a phone. Unfortunately, they didn't have a whole lot of impact on the actual game itself, but it was still a cool idea.
@Matthew Blake: We had an interesting discussion about that in tigirc once where whatever the gameplay would be about, the underlying concept would be that each player has a set of secret instructions they have to do to win the game. Like say it was a bank heist, each player raises the Wiimote to their ear and receives a set of secret instructions that only -they- hear and have to work by to win the game. One player might need to kill one of the others at some point, or steal the money without killing, or one might need to protect another or.. some kind of play on that. I think it has a lot of interesting applications that hopefully we'll see someone experiment with at least on Wiiware if nothing else.
Back to the video though, the samurai point was one I remember being excited about Red Steel for, disappointingly when it didn't deliver. The reason I was so excited is that it would kind of do away with any kind of level grinding or upgrade based gameplay. What I mean is that you wouldn't need to upgrade your character to be faster or stronger to fight future adversaries, you would simply need to improve your own skill. Imagine for instance the draw-slash that Rev talked about in the video. A stat upgrade to the character would mean that they would be able to draw and attack faster, but there's nothing exactly exciting about that.
However if you were suddenly attacked and had to instantly draw your sword and strike and you succeeded.. that would be incredibly satisfying. It wouldn't be because you did some embarassing level grinding earlier. It would be because you have yourself become more skilled at that technique. A complaint the Penny Arcade guys have had about playing single-player games instead of WOW was that there was no persistance to their aquisition of strength between games, and that it was more worth them spending time in WOW because their character had so much room for progression. So what if the control method was to attack with the sword in both WOW and another title? Then when you spend time in the immersive single-player experience you are practicing skills and techniques which would transfer over to another game. You could show up in WOW fighting in a different style, with fewer wasted movements or maybe noticing more opportunities to attack.
I think I just enjoy the idea of a persitant gaming skill over progression that's only really applicable within that single title.
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Contest:
2:20 PM on 05.14.2009
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What you're talking about should become more predominant with M+, but you can already see some push to it like that Silent Hill game.
Also, you're not wearing any pants are you?
Keep them coming!
This is why there need to be more Wild West games with lightguns. Quickdraw situations rising up out of nowhere would be a fun "OH CRAP WHERE DID I PUT THE GU-" situation.
Great Rant!
"I agree that the wiimote is sometimes just a glorified mouse."
That's what makes it freaking awesome in my opinion. Screw motion controls up to this point --- The IR pointer is where it's at as far as I'm concerned.
Interesting.
I agree with you though, most games on the wii that use the motion control make it unnecessary. for instance, in twilight princess when you're flailing your arms about trying to kill your enemies with your sword you tend to either miss or do a different attack than what was originally intended, at least, thats what i've experienced. and red steel, i just fucking hate that game.
2) You look beat up. You're still sexy.
3) Why isn't this one "HD" like the last one? I want to see your face in HD.
4) In MoH Heroes 2 you have to shoulder your Wiimote in order to use the Rocket Launcher. It made using the rocket somehow interactive and put a twist to the "just point at the screen" mechanic.
Although I think he's trying to say that the wiimote technology shouldn't be used as a gimmick.
Yes please for more complex, wiimote as a thing sort of controls. I even liked the twist stuff from Prime 3.
How about a game where you have to keep pressing B and A to hold onto something, but you can still point and shoot at things. The rub is that you have to figure out a way to press 2 to fire. Because, you know, you're encumbered.
I'll take a game with convoluted controls now, if only because we've gotten so good at making everything so unobtrusive.
PS: And if you let me add this, you're quite handsome my friend.
Also, I'm suprised you didn't commit suicide after the debacle that was Podtoid 100, Anthony.
I agree, most of the games on the Wii are basically just cash-ins to take advantage of the popularity of the motion controls in the Wii remote, and most of them don't even work the way they're supposed to. I do think MotionPlus will help developers realize that it's time for a way more immersive experience than what we've been given so far. I understand that the Wii was never meant to ship with perfect motion controls, but that doesn't mean companies had to pull what they have been for so long.
Podtoid 100 wasn't that bad! Someone should get on editing out all the "uhhhhhh, what is this again??" callers and would be a decent episode worthy of posting :-D.
I second the Dr. Who game. Of course, it would have to have Tennant's likeness. Now that I think about it...a cameo from The Doctor would be AWESOME in Fallout New Vegas...
i mentioned it to my room mate and he nearly shot through the god damned ceiling at it's mention.
upon further sega reminiscing, we both made a healthy decision to grab a sega cd and dreamcast and watch the mould grow on our faces as we play through our childhood favourites.
... ironically, i found that simply aiming your gun and shooting, on the other hand, was godawfully annoying and unaccurate - you wobble around so much, it feels like you're submerged in water...
More of this please.
Your imagination based around the idea of making it feel more realistic by fumbling around for a gun or whatever is taken into consideration as a point that yes it's interaction in the really real world heh but in essence, this just means someone should go out and make a tripod with a gun mounted to it beside them pointing at the tv. We're smart apes right? We'd find the best and easiest solution. How would that be immersive or even realistic in the sense of playing that game... yer telling me someone would walk down a hallway dragging a tripod with a gun on it so they wouldn't have to reach for it in case of an encounter?
How would that be any different here?
Personally I think the inclusion of the controller being controlled by Psychomantis or whatever in Metal Gear was BRILLIANT. That was more of an example of the game coming out to the real world and meeting you in a tangible state. Very cool the first time I watched that...like it made my flesh kinda crawl that this thing on my tv was fuckin with my controller.
Good ideas Rev, but I think the examples are a little weak and a little thin in terms of believing it was a great idea. Form and function are key factors...imagination can make up for it.
Anyway...balls.
That was part of my own personal drinking game back when you had your rev rants on retroforce. Everytime you'd play the music before you're done talking and it just sounds like your voice trails off I would sever the head of a puppy, turn its head upside down and suck out the blood thru its nose.
or somethin.
let yourself finish talking!!
I agree with you about the Wii's failings. I really enjoyed Z&W, but I've yet to feel that same kind of immersion with any other game. For the most part, the Wii remote just ends up mimicking mouse input, only less accurate. I wanted the Wii to provide a unique gaming experience, not a low resolution blend of current console and PC gaming.
Its safe to say that Jim isn't the only one that's serious business around these parts.
Back to the video though, the samurai point was one I remember being excited about Red Steel for, disappointingly when it didn't deliver. The reason I was so excited is that it would kind of do away with any kind of level grinding or upgrade based gameplay. What I mean is that you wouldn't need to upgrade your character to be faster or stronger to fight future adversaries, you would simply need to improve your own skill. Imagine for instance the draw-slash that Rev talked about in the video. A stat upgrade to the character would mean that they would be able to draw and attack faster, but there's nothing exactly exciting about that.
However if you were suddenly attacked and had to instantly draw your sword and strike and you succeeded.. that would be incredibly satisfying. It wouldn't be because you did some embarassing level grinding earlier. It would be because you have yourself become more skilled at that technique. A complaint the Penny Arcade guys have had about playing single-player games instead of WOW was that there was no persistance to their aquisition of strength between games, and that it was more worth them spending time in WOW because their character had so much room for progression. So what if the control method was to attack with the sword in both WOW and another title? Then when you spend time in the immersive single-player experience you are practicing skills and techniques which would transfer over to another game. You could show up in WOW fighting in a different style, with fewer wasted movements or maybe noticing more opportunities to attack.
I think I just enjoy the idea of a persitant gaming skill over progression that's only really applicable within that single title.