Love it. Great rant.

On this topic, I personally find a lot of the upgrades in, say, Super Metroid, to actually have a great effect on the gameplay mechanics. The ice beam, for instance, all of a sudden lets you freeze enemies and use them as stepping stones to reach higher places.

But I agree that going around planting little bombs in every nook and cranny just gets to be frustrating. That's the part I really dislike.

"Out of the place ways". Good rant! I hadn't really thought too hard about item gathering and placement in L4D but how you described it is exactly how I play and now it makes a lot of sense...

This is why the Lego: Star Wars/Indiana Jones/Batman games piss me off. I'm trying to enjoy the building, the co-op, the puzzles, but meanwhile tons and tons of studs keep appearing out of illogical areas.

I don't want them, my friends don't want them, but damn if we don't spend the entire level blowing up flower pots and grass to get them.

I am totally part of the problem. I love collecting things.

Great rant, though. :)

mmm oreo

Eh, I have to disagree. Especially in games like metroid or shadow complex, the key thing about the collectibles is that they're optional. I like doing them because they're a sort of extra challenge. It's much easier for people NOT to get them or even care, because in the end it DOESN'T have a big impact on gameplay.

I hate to say it, but one of the worst offenders of the item hunt game design in recent memory is Wind Waker. All Zelda games have item hunt mini-quests, usually for heart pieces, but I found Wind Waker's to be particularly annoying, because I had to find the treasure map by completing some quest, and then I could go find the the treasure that I hoped would be a heart piece but was usually just a friggin rupee. Oh, and sometimes when you dropped the hook, you weren't exactly over the treasure chest. It was just tedious.

Some of the side-quests were kind of cool. like the one dungeon where you had to light a bunch of torches from a fixed position, but they were so disconnected from the actual game, and you always had to go out of your way to find them. I'd rather come across something like that in an actual dungeon. The dungeons were great. Finding every little knickknack... not so much.

After getting fifteen full life hearts, I just went and finished the game, never looking back.

I can totally see where you are coming from even though you hate gays by playing shadow complex.

I talked about this in my promoted c-blog from August, so I'll just repeat my argument from there: if collecting and hoarding items gives you a sense of enjoyment, even if the game did not intend for you to do that, it still means that the game has succeeded in its broad objective: providing fun and entertainment. Of course, I know that Prof. Burch (see, a better title that Reverend?) doesn't think that fun is required for a game to be good...

Think of how games can be enjoyed in more than one way. Some people like eroge for their characters and narratives, while some like to...fap. Some people (i.e., Samit) like sports games because of their attention to detail and accurate recreation of sports, while others prefer to play competitively with their friends and just have fun. So, while I barely cared about "saving the world" in Shadow Complex, I had the most fun finding the hidden items and powerups.

I really hate it when games throw meaningless collectibles in a game. I liked the "seeds" in Lost Odyssey because they did something. Collecting them gave you access to equipment.

But the perfect example of the kind I (and I think most people) hate is the rubber bands in Bully. Loved that game but there was no point to the rubber bands other than an achievement and a rubber ball after you have collected the obscene number of them.

I think this goes along in many ways with the rant you made concerning the difficulty in Snake Eater, and it's a big part of the reason why I wish there were difficulty levels in Final Fantasy games (in any game, really, but particularly Final Fantasy games for me). Say you're playing a Final Fantasy game and you find some armor that protects really well against fire attacks. You might put it on for a while, but odds are the second you find another piece of armor that is better in some kind of way you'll switch them out and you'll probably end up selling the fire armor. Later on in the game you might find yourself fighting against a boss with fire attacks, but odds are you won't be kicking yourself over the fact that you sold that fire armor a few hours back because really, boss fights in Final Fantasy games usually come down to being at a high enough level, not wearing the right kind of armor of having the right kind of weapons. If FF games had difficulty settings that forced you to stay on your toes and carefully prepare for upcoming battles, then all of those otherwise meaningless items would actually help serve a higher purpose. I think most gamers are familiar with the concept of hoarding items that they'll never use, and a lot of them are actually okay with that, but I just wish developers would give those of us who aren't okay with it a challenge that forces us to use the items we've collected.

I do the OCD Final Fantasy thing. I'm not as crazy about it as I used to be, and I'm not really OCD in general, but I do find myself doing that in RPGs.

I agree with this rant. And stuff.

Oreo analogy is soooo true.

For myself, whether or not I feel like going after optional stuff largely comes down to how much of a hassle it is - i.e. does the game offer hints as to things you should look out for, allow you to keep track of what you've found and what's still out there, etc. or does it just toss random crap around without any rhyme or reason and expect you to stumble on it (or more likely buy the strategy guide)? I go on at a bit more length about it in the RPG "Forgotten Essentials" entry linked in my sidebar...anyway, nothing like a Rant to get some discussion going.

I usually hate these things because they come off as super pretentious, but I actually enjoyed this one a lot.
I agree with the addiction, and I know I have it. I used to play Metroids for hours just because I wanted all the stupid items. What was weird, is that didn't carry over at ALL with Metroid Prime. It really only works on 2d games for me.
The one thing that doesn't make sense for me is the Left 4 Dead bit. I understand your point, but the REASON you collect stuff in Left 4 Dead is entirely different then the previously mentioned games. In Shadow Complex/Metroid games, items really aren't necessary. Thats why you can beat the game with like 13% of the items or something. It gives you an overabundence for the sheer joy of collecting, like loot in Diablo.
Left 4 Dead is COMPLETELY different, it's like Resident Evil. You have to ration your items, because thats how the game was built. Yeah, your idea sounds great in theory, but you really can't make that comparison.
Braid also, because the pieces were REQUIRED to beat the game, so they were an integral part of the gameplay.
So yeah, that's my general gist about that.

Ah, anything that involves percentages or sets, and especially if collectibles unlock extragamular things, such as music tracks or art galleries (Dirge of Cerberus has little shootable...things, which are saved outside of your game progression's save). Agh, it is like crack, and then you're faced with a hard-to-get-at thing (and for Metroid, this tends to be pointless missiles, since they don't want useful goodies to be too hard to get), you're frustrated and hating the game and even yourself, because you're saying "I got all the others, I'M GETTING THIS ONE, DAMMIT!" And, yeah, Zero Mission has art shtuff with different game-end conditions.

"If you're trying to get past the "Rev" moniker and seek to change "Rev Rant," how about "Burch Bitches?" "

LOL

Now that sounds like a series about women he would or had sex with.

Also, if they don't include a scan visor/x-ray scope in Metroid: Other M the moment you start, someone may very well be punched.

I agree mostly.

Out of curiosity, Rev, did you like the collecting in Batman: Arkham Asylum?

Personally, I like to explore and find secrets, and the fact that much of that exploring and discovering in B:AA led me to character profiles, Arkham back story, and character upgrades made it even more fun for me.



Also, to anyone who says "you can't compare those games, they're in different genres!"

You are an idiot.

Just because apples and oranges are different doesn't mean I can't say "Well this one has a more citrus-y taste and I like that."

Games are games and if item collecting is fun in one and NOT fun in another, you don't have to follow any bullshit made up "rules" in order to come out and say so.

And I think in RPGs, secret/hidden items should stay in chests and the like. I HATE when games make you walk up to every bookshelf and trashcan while mashing X to see if something's in it. Hell, Pokemon (a series I mostly like) puts invisible items in the middle of nowhere on the ground waiting for you to mash and find them!

The hell?!

you know thinking more on this I have to say that there is one big exception that I can think of- and that is shenmue- I liked collecting the figures-
also by the same token WTF was fun to collect the random gumball machine stuff

I’m almost completely on board with this rant. Shadow Complex was pretty fun at first, mostly because I couldn’t wait to see what power up I would discover next or figure out how to get an upgrade that wasn’t simply blocked by a missile barrier of some sort. It’s like that addiction that feels good, but in the back of your mind, you wonder why you’re doing it. Suddenly, after the rush is gone, you’re like “I want to avoid that” and the cycle repeats. However, like the other Metroidvanias I played, after awhile, the item collection becomes dull, at least the second time. In Metroid, the missile upgrades really add up at first when you start off at 5 or 10, but later on, not so much. Is there much of a difference between 200 and 255 missiles compared to 15 and 120? As for checking every little thing in RPGs, that annoys me so much because you likely wouldn’t know what you missed and whatnot without having a checklist. I also hate collectables that’s just nothing more than being there for an achievement and otherwise have no reason for getting a second time, like the dog tags in Gears.

On the other hand, I think collectables can be great if their unique, like how in LittleBigPlanet, each prize bubble is a different item, even if you don’t end up really doing anything with them in most cases. Arkham Asylum rewards you with new challenge maps, profiles, and such for completing certain Riddler challenges.

@ gamadaya
I agree completely, which is why nowadays I haven’t been into RPGs that much like I used too. Maybe I could do a c-blog about how I feel about this subject someday.

"even though he's sort of trying to get rid of the "Reverend" moniker." Why!? Don't be a pussy like Cliffy B.

can you rant about jim sterling XD

I collect in game, but it's really bad. I tend to save every single worthy item I can thinking I'll surely need it later.. and then I beat the game after so many tries of controller-bitingly frustrating battling with a full inventory of items that would have saved me the effort.

NO WAIT, I'LL NEED THAT LATER.

If only I was like that in the real life.